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Message started by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/17 at 19:32:28

Title: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/30/17 at 19:32:28

I read the Stuff linked. I'm Really glad I did. I'm seeing a much better edit speed.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Dave on 05/31/17 at 02:41:05

Jog: Rather that worry about your "edit" speed - maybe improved accuracy in your editing would be a better goal. ;)

Here is the article that JOG is referring to:

https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/31/17 at 02:45:08

Edit, stage left...

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/31/17 at 05:32:03

Trail braking provides the rider with control throughout the turn. Grabbing the brakes in a panic mid-turn will 1) stand the bike up, 2) cause the bike to run wide, or 3) if you grab too much brake too fast, you will lose traction and low-side crash.

This is a very easy technique to learn and master. After "normal" braking prior to turn entry, leave some brake engaged from turn entry to the turn apex. You'll want to progressively reduce pressure on the brake lever from turn entry to the apex. Doing this without making any other changes will give you confidence that keeping some of the front brake engaged will not do "bad" things. You'll also notice that you'll be going s l o w by the time you get to the turn apex. You can add corner speed little by little until you get to the turn apex at the speed prior to trying the trail braking technique.

The advantage of trail braking is this: with the brake engaged and the weight of the bike already transferred forward, if you have to apply more brake mid-turn, you will not overwhelm the suspension, you will not stand the bike up, and you will not run wide through the turn. The probability of a low-side crash is dramatically reduced.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by LANCER on 05/31/17 at 05:55:23

I've been in the habit of braking in a similar fashion on pavement for a long time. I brake appropriately going into a turn (if needed) and then maintain just a slight pressure on the front brake with one finger as I adjust the throttle as needed (up or down) as I negotiate the turn.
It works well for me.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by youzguyz on 05/31/17 at 07:04:13

I do it, but I use the rear brake.
Just works better for me. The throttle and front brake are on the same hand, and my fingers don't work so good. Arthur-itus don't ya know..

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by ohiomoto on 05/31/17 at 07:04:15

This is technique used in off road riding as well. Maintains a bigger contact patch on the tire through the turn. Especially helpful in off camber situations. Sometimes you will even drag the front brake while applying throttle to keep the front end planted on a flat off camber turn.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Ruttly on 05/31/17 at 10:11:43

I've been using that technique for thirty years on and off road.

But in thirty years have never shared it with my buddies , gives me a bit of an edge as some of them are faster riders than I am.

But I think I use it much more off road than on.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 09:57:03

I've been having a problem.. I'm freezing up , rigid, scared, and dang near had a bad get off last Sunday.. Those back roads, pleasant as they are, have blind corners. I've discovered crud in the road in two places, dirt, little gravel, and I was going under twenty, both times, but seeing the road littered with traction destroying crap scares me. I Think I need to get Less rigid, instead of going full on mannequin on a motorcycle..

I'm Trying to figure out how to change my initial reaction and/or learn to combat it, like Knowing not to look at the ditch unless you want to be IN the ditch and forcing the eyes toward where you want to go..

I'm hunting for riding tips, and the trail braking helped a lot, but, there is More,,
http://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-power-of-the-quick-turn/

Watching motorcycle races will never be the same.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by oldNslow on 06/03/17 at 10:20:56

https://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Vol-High-Performance-Motorcycle/dp/0965045021/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0/130-4590523-2548865?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7W4871EX0YF057Z001Y3

Best motorcycle riding instruction book ever written IMO. Aimed at road racers, but the techniques are just as applicable to the street.

Quote:

'm Trying to figure out how to change my initial reaction and/or learn to combat it, like Knowing not to look at the ditch unless you want to be IN the ditch and forcing the eyes toward where you want to go..

Exactly the kind of stuff the book focuses on. Some of the things we do instinctively and involuntarily, like chopping the throttle and grabbing a handful of brake when we get scared, are exactly the opposite of what the motorcycle needs to stay upright. The author calls them 'survival reactions" and explains why a lot of times they do the opposite of helping us survive. There's a pretty long list.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 11:09:17

Thankfully I don't Chop, but Boy I hafta stop myself.. And I do ever so slightly let off the gas,

And I done Lernt the Brakes on crappy surfaces lesson on gravel. One finger, barely Touched it, and I slid to a halt with feet still on the pegs. Man that gravity stuff works Quick!

Thanks for the link.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Ruttly on 06/03/17 at 11:13:10

A horse has four legs but a horse moving at speed is amazing , looking ahead noting where objects are not to be stepped on , but the horse is still looking ahead never seeing where he is stepping and not stepping on what his eyes/brain have seen a few yards back.
If you spend you time waiting for you front tire to go over a patch of gravel then you are not looking ahead.If you waiting for that patch to come up you are preparing to slide you are not relaxed you are on the edge of panic. The tire will pass over the gravel and regain its grip all on its own , if it had the horses brain it wouldn't even notice cause it's looking ahead. If your rigid and in a state of panic you are not one with your bike you are actually fighting the bike. It's simple relax , if you focus on a object it's much more likely you will hit it , term is "Target Fixation".
See it , don't focus on it , it you can miss it you will , if the direction/speed of the bike is going to hit the patch , relaxe , don't fight the bike , tires will do their job.
I know your smarter than a horse , so relaxe , keep looking ahead. I don't like gravel on entry of a turn but anywhere after the apex I will purposely ride thru it if possible, fun gettin a drift before a straight.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Ruttly on 06/03/17 at 11:22:48

Trail braking is a advanced technique. Like any technique there are times you use it and most of the time you don't. Be careful it can be a bad thing if used at the wrong time or place or to aggressively !

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Ruttly on 06/03/17 at 12:03:06

Day off time for a quick ride 70 mile loop , time to renew the soul.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 15:11:24

Used book ordered.. I have invested countless hours studying the state of affairs,, and for what? It's allowed me and my family to understand somewhat beyond what They tell us and to know when people I meet are people who I might be able to enjoy.

So, it's well past time to work on riding skills..instead of the crap I can't change.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Ruttly on 06/03/17 at 16:22:22

Never too late to learn new skills , ride safe buddy. Used book is Twist of the Wrist ? Great book

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 16:39:16

Yeah, and the site I linked has tons of hints.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 17:39:31

http://www.ridinginthezone.com/video-to-learn-from-uphill-hairpin-fail/

Dayumm, never even dreamed of such..

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 17:57:56

Is it Really an Accident if you're Doing EVERYTHING possible to invite a crash?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yq4HVSblphw

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/03/17 at 18:02:35

After you're done reading "Twist of the Wrist" -which is the motorcycle bible - I suggest "Total Control" by Lee Parks. It's geared towards street riding.

Tell me Justin, what type of grip do you keep on the grips? Do you ride with a "death grip" or are your hands nice and lose/open? I ride with my throttle hand open; thumb and index finger working the throttle and my next two fingers laying across the top of the brake handle. Same for the clutch side. This grip relaxes your entire upper body.

Ruttly is 100% correct about looking down the road and not AT the road. Moving your head in the direction of the turn centers you body over the bike and helps to stabilize the bike through a turn. Don't sit ridged on the bike, move with it.

Enjoy the book(s).

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/17 at 22:43:12

My hands are loose, I'm fluid with my body, I'm comfortable, right up until I get skeert, then I look like Pinocchio. All stiff and wooden.
Next time I feel like that I'm gonna try to force myself to loosen up. I want to walk a couple of those turns and see if it's iron ore bleeding that color on the road or clay that's washed across.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by gizzo on 06/04/17 at 16:13:40

A Twist of the Wrist 2 is on YouTube if you want to watcha video as well as read the book. good for us visual learners.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Dave on 06/08/17 at 07:56:12

Well it is confirmed....I am a "Trail Breaker"!

Last night I rode the little Ninja to the once a month meeting of the "Scooter Trash" friends that I have, several of whom are either former or current road racers. I asked one of them to look at the front tire of the Ninja and tell me why it is wearing out relatively quickly, and why it is wearing on the sides more than in the middle.

He looked at it and told me the tire shows that I "Trail Break" when I ride. He told me he rides the same way and wears his tires identical to the way I do. He showed me that the tread on the right side was worn a bit more than the tread on the left side - he said that is because on the right turns it is an inside corner and the radius is tighter than it is on the left hand turns (if you stay in your lane).....and you need to slow down more for the tighter curve radius. When he and I go into a corner and lean over we are still on the front brake and it results in the side of the tread getting wear under breaking, and the tread blocks wear at an angle as the turning and breaking forces are pushing them crooked.

The Bridgestone Battlax BT45 tires have very small blocks on the sides, and that results in a somewhat flexible tread on the sides. I bought a Pirelli Sport Demon to put on the front and that may be a better tire for my riding style (or lack of it).

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/17 at 11:08:54

The fifteen year old tire is finally done with eight thousand miles. I don't know why it lasted so long. My 05 survived for five thousand miles, and so did the brakes. I replaced them with EBC yesterday.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/12/17 at 18:55:36

Got my book. Sure nuff, stiffening/freezing up is in the front of the book. And my idea about what to do instead, gentle throttle, relax, ride through it, no guarantee you won't crash, but your odds are better.
Lots to read. Thanks to whoever suggested this book. I'm a ways in, and not looking forward to having to stop reading.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/21/17 at 19:40:57

404A4E444F46424B151317270 wrote:

Anyone who posts something to me and I act like I didn't see it, I didn't See IT!

Great , Total Control, check,, and thanks.

Twist talks about head, eyes, entering a turn.
Get body set ahead of the turn, pick where you will turn, get speed adjusted, look at where you want to be later Just before you actually turn.
I'm seeing the outside chikkinstrip titties are missing in places on the front.

Absolutely stuffed the left peg today. It wasn't that slow pressure and slight scraping sound, lurched the bike,

I measured 4.325" I'm sure the suspension traveled.
If that zilch looking area is from the dust wipers,then that's the travel.

http://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-power-of-the-quick-turn/

Been reading the choices..

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/21/18 at 16:25:04

I'm resurrecting this topic because it's always good to review good technique. In that regard I came across this video this evening and I thought Trail Braking was really explained well. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/22/18 at 01:23:30

On the fourth pass through the book I got a new detail.
Pick your turn point
Just before you get there
Look up the road.
Man that's hard..
But I've seen exit speeds get more consistent.
Yeah, I'm running the throttle between thumb and forefinger in turns.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by ohiomoto on 08/22/18 at 10:11:08

454F4B414A43474E101612220 wrote:

---------------------------

Good video. I'm really surprised that nobody talks about the increased traction you gain with trail braking. It's not hard to figure out that you are increasing pressure on the front end which will create more downforce on the tire. Overlooked is the increased friction being applied to the leading edge of the contact point on the front tire from the braking forces

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by engineer on 08/22/18 at 19:01:49

This is a good thread. I admire JOG for his honesty about his riding fears and I really liked Ruttly's comparisons with a horse running along and a rider keeping his attention on the road ahead, let the bike ride through it. Just yesterday I found that I had purchased the book "Total Control" some time ago and left it on a shelf and never read it. This thread has motivated me to read that book and I'll start tonight. I do some trail braking with the front wheel but not always.
Like JOG my twistys are narrow county or township roads with lots of blind turns and anything can be around the corner such as a tree limb. A couple weeks ago I hit what we call a Turkey Vulture as it flew into my path. That was quite an impact and knocked my front wheel off course for a second but it corrected itself on it's own. So I know what JOG is thinking when coming around those curves.

Title: Re: Trail Braking
Post by SoC on 08/22/18 at 20:56:50

Gary, Thanks for the video recommendation. Watched it last night and started implimenting some of the technique today while riding. Much of it seemed intuitive as I have riden mountain bikes for years and on a bicycle the right hand lever is for the rear brake. In mountain biking you are on the rear brake much more (read often) than on a motorcycle and many riders including myself keep first 2 fingers on it almost always. In fact I had to unlearn that in the motorcycle basic rider course. So now it's good to know too that it's sometimes ok.

I did notice an immediate improvement in handling on the twisty hillside road to the marina this evening.