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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Grooved brake shoes /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1495490102 Message started by Tocsik on 05/22/17 at 14:55:01 |
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Title: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/22/17 at 14:55:01 I might be on to something here but wanted to know if anyone had tried these. Our bike takes EBC 606 shoes for the rear and EBC makes a 606g they call "water grooved". They appear to have a much better chamfer on the leading edge plus the angled grooves which are good for dust removal and noise reduction per several users here on this forum. Both show they are 160 X 30 mm in one pic but the product dimensions are a little different in another description; 6.7X6X1.4 inches for the 606's and 6.8X6X1.5 for the 606G's. I have a message out to the EBC USA folks and will follow-up if they respond. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by ero4444 on 05/22/17 at 15:13:52 you gonna put them on the rear? It ain't gonna matter much. But I'd like to know how it turns out. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/17 at 15:15:38 What problem are you fixing? |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/22/17 at 15:22:04 Rear brakes have a lot of squeal which is actually worse if I blow it out with compressed air. Last time I had the rear wheel off I did some sanding to remove glaze but it didn't really help. Also have locked up the rear wheel a few times and I've read the grooves help with that, too. I need to shim my rear pulley and wanted to hold off until I have new brake shoes in hand because I don't know if they are the stock shoes or if a PO replaced with EBC's (didn't note that when I had the wheel off). If I knew they were already EBC I would just chamfer and groove them myself when I took the wheel off for the pulley shim. But if they are stock shoes, I want to replace with EBC as long as the rear wheel is off. Wast of time? Go ahead and groove and chamfer the shoes no matter if they are stock or EBC? Bike has about 16k miles so probably plenty of pad left I reckon. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by batman on 05/22/17 at 15:23:33 It's been done to the stock shoes with a 4" grinder by someone here . |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/22/17 at 15:26:59 5251445D515E0408300 wrote:
Yeah, that was my plan but wanted new shoes in hand when I pulled the rear wheel in case what's in there is cooked. I hate takin' that sucker off! |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/17 at 15:37:42 I don't think anyone has Ever NEEDED to replace them. The 02 is stock, brake works much better than the 05 did. I made huge progress with a grinder. I should have removed more surface area. The squeal was gone after chamfering, and I could feel the pressure of the pedal feedback and the tire wasn't sliding. But it was a bit sensitive, I had grooved and chamfered at least 1/4 of the surface area away. More grooves would have been better. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by batman on 05/22/17 at 16:29:34 The slots in the shoes above will move water and dust to the rear of the drum ,not toward the outside plate where the drain slot is located at the bottom.Bad design or wrong shoes for our bike. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/17 at 17:19:14 I disagree, Bat. Flip them over. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by batman on 05/22/17 at 19:56:30 JOG, look again,you can flip them all day it's still wrong.flipping them doesn't change the orientation of the slots.think about how they fit in the brake plate, like in the pic above ,if the top shoe was laying flat like the other. the drum covering them would be turning ccw. flipping them over would change nothing, they are the same ,the only way the slots would work is if your sixth gear was reverse. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/17 at 20:00:43 Grooves across the face, envision a bolt. Flip the bolt. Run the nut up, down, flip, run it up, down. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/23/17 at 03:14:22 I don't know if that is a "generic" photo of the brakes shoes - but the rounded end won't fit the Savage. The end should have a concave end that fits over the post on the brake backing plate. The way I interpret the grooves.....they are both cut the same direction, and this will result in the top one pushing the water/dust inward - while the bottom one will push the water/dust outward. To get them both to push the dirt outward....the grooves needed to be cut in opposite directions, and you would have to mount the shoe on the proper side to make it push outward. Most often the squeal comes from shoes that have been subject to a very rusty drum - and the rust was removed by riding the bike and using the rear brake, and wearing the rust off. This embeds the rust into the brake shoe lining and contaminates the material. If a bit of sanding won't eliminate the squeal - then it is time for new shoes! |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/23/17 at 06:05:05 Ah yeah. Good catch Dave. Could be a generic pic; found another that looks more like ours. The grooved shoes seem to be for ATV's but hey, the Raptor fits our bike. And thanks for kicking this idea around everyone. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/23/17 at 12:49:23 From EBC: Both these versions are actually made from the same tool in the factory, rest assure, they are the same size Regarding the direction of the grooves, isn't it still better to have shoes with the grooves already cut rather than flat surfaces? As long as the brake dust is getting pushed off to one side it should still be an improvement I would think. And I won't keep wasting everyone's time with this but I still think the grooves would push the dust outward and away from the drum once installed in the hub. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/23/17 at 14:12:29 02393423323E252338303D22510 wrote:
Okay, so, water is wiped in on top Out on bottom Wherever the thing drains best. In or out, top ,bottom, your choice. Either way wiping is happening. en the squeal comes from shoes that have been subject to a very rusty drum - and the rust was removed by riding the bike and using the rear brake, and wearing the rust off. This embeds the rust into the brake shoe lining and contaminates the material. If a bit of sanding won't eliminate the squeal - then it is time for new s I never thought about that. I can see how that could happen. The 05, along with the Instalock rear brake, it squealed. The radical shoe shaping tamed it. I don't remember what the drum looked like, but if it was strange I would probably remember. Maybe,, |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by BSTON on 05/24/17 at 06:13:20 You guys must use your rear brake waaaay more than me. Pretty much the only time I touch mine is if I'm at a stop light and I want to keep the brake light on while I take my right hand off of the controls. Emergency stopping is the only time I use the rear brake to actually slow the bike. In most cases if you're really hard on the front brake the rear isn't doing too much anyway. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/24/17 at 06:53:49 BSTN: The use of brakes is a personal thing - and is something that progresses through a few stages as your riding ability changes. 1) Beginning riders use the rear brake almost exclusively, as it seldom creates any control issues at low speeds - and when used improperly the front brake can be scary! As their ability improves the use of the front brake hopefully becomes less scary, and they can start to realize the improved stopping power the front brake can provide. Still, a large number of falls occur when beginners use too much brake when the tire encounters some other slippery areas. I have also come to the conclusion after watching a lot of scooter crashes on YouTube - that a large number of riders don't realize the application of the front brake needs to be progressive, and that the initial squeeze needs to be light, and that more brake can be added as the weight transfers forward onto the tire - you just can't instantly "grab a handful" of front brake. 2) Intermediate riders understand how to apply the front and rear brake in unison - and the reward is better control and a shorter stopping distance. 3) Advanced riders come to understand that the front brake can provide nearly 100% of the stopping power that is needed. During very heavy braking there can be very little weight on the rear tire, and even a small amount of brake pedal during hard braking can result in locking up the rear wheel (which then leads to a problem with directional control when the rear of the bike tries to pass the front of the bike). This level may never be reached (or required) by the majority of riders, as they will never put themselves in a situation that requires very aggressive braking on purpose. I have avoided mentioning this "no rear brake" riding style on this forum, as I believe it is very much like a discussion on "counter steering" - you either understand it...or you don't. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by batman on 05/24/17 at 07:10:57 The shoes are twins! the groves on both are cut in the wrong direction !both will direct water, dust ,rust toward the back of the drum.,when it should be sent to the front where the drain slot is located.moving the shoes doesn't change the relationship of the groves to the rotation of the drum.If the top shoe sends crud to the rear ,so will the bottom! |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/24/17 at 07:40:44 66657069656A303C040 wrote:
Batman, when you flip the brake shoe over to the bottom....the grooves don't change direction - but the direction the brake drum moves across the grooves changes direction (the top is leading and the bottom is trailing). The end result is the dirt is pushed the other way.....the photo shows the grooves are canted towards the inside with the direction the grooves are cut on the top - but when moved to the bottom the direction of the brake drum will push the dirt to the outside. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/24/17 at 10:39:04 7766617A7B350 wrote:
BSTN, many riders use the rear brake. I use my brakes together when stopping (most of the time) and I use the rear to bleed off speed entering a curve at speed if I'm already downshifted to the gear I want. You can also use a little rear brake in a curve if necessary. Front braking in a curve is not a good idea. When I go on mountain rides I tend to use a lot of front brake but if I'm "havin' a bit o' fun" I'll use more rear brake going into corners. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/24/17 at 11:25:24 I am stuck in the awkward stage between intermediate and advanced. I do need to replace the rear pads on the disc brake bikes occasionally - but I likely will never wear out the shoes on the Savage. Most of the time I do use a bit of rear brake - and when the rear wheel locks up I get reminded why you need to be really careful with the rear brake on hard stops...........as you increase the pressure on the front brake you need to be releasing the pressure on the rear simultaneously. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by batman on 05/24/17 at 12:36:50 Dave ,I really don't know what you are thinking! the rotation of the drum for the top shoe is from the end that is squared off to the end that has the rounded relief for the stud, But !!!! the rotation for the bottom is opposite! which still means crud is swept to the rear of the drum.I can't make it any clearer!picture what the bottom shoe looks like from underneath, and which way the drum is turning ,( opposite the way it passes across the top shoe)and you'll see that the slots still send crud to the rear of the drum! |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/24/17 at 13:36:34 Batman - Yep...your right. I had to draw diagonal lines on a business card and then flip it over to see what was going on. The direction of travel does reverse when you flip the brake shoe over - but so does the angle of the grooves. Tocsik - I looked at the part number you provided, and the quad that these shoes grooved shoes are made for has a drum on the right wheel - but the backing plate is on the left side.....so the grooves are cut in the direction that will push the mud to the left side - which is on the opposite way you want the dirt/dust/water shoved on the Savage brake. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/24/17 at 13:55:09 Grab a bolt Put a nut on it Rotate the nut Watch which way the nut moves Flip the bolt Spin the nut Unless you screwed up, now that nut goes the other way. I was right the first time. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by batman on 05/24/17 at 16:22:12 Jog ,your a hardcase! but your WRONG! Reread my last post and Dave's answer.the groves in the shoes pictured are bassackward for use on our bikes. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/24/17 at 17:46:06 Jog: Go ahead and use your bolt threads if you want to....and use it to consider the brake shoe issue. No matter how you rotate or turn the bolt, the threads always look the same, and the nut will always move the same direction when you turn the nut on the bolt threads. Hold the bolt so the hex head is nearest your body.....and the length is away from you. Take your finger and move it away from you.....and notice the angle of the threads would push your finger to the right side....that is similar to the top of the brake drum moving forward as the bike travels. Now take your finger and slide it to the bottom of the bolt and pull your finger toward you.....you will see that your finger would still want to go to the right side (same rotation change as the bottom of the brake drum mowing the opposite direction the top is)....the same change occurred when you moved your finger away/toward on the bolt. (The brake shoe threads are actually left hand in appearance - so the bolt example will push the finger in the opposite direction of the brake shoes pictured). It took me a while to understand - but I get it now. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/24/17 at 17:57:39 6A515D4D57553E0 wrote:
I didn't want to post in this thread, but this statement compels me to post only because a new rider may see it and actually believe it. This is 100% wrong and goes against anything you would learn at a basic riding class like MSF or an advanced school like California Superbike. Just because you don't like using the correct brake or use it properly, please don't make statements such as using the front brake in a turn is dangerous. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/24/17 at 18:20:48 Bolt Nut Head of bolt near body Down on right side of nut Flip bolt Down on right side of nut One way nut comes Other way it goes |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by oldNslow on 05/24/17 at 18:21:02 Quote:
Like a lot of things involved with riding motorcycles, using the front brake in a turn can be dangerous if you do it wrong. Which is why it's important to understand how, and why, to do it right. https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/ |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/24/17 at 18:41:31 Good article. I agree with, and use the techniques described in that post. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/24/17 at 19:24:31 I needed that article. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/25/17 at 03:21:25 300B0611000C17110A020F10630 wrote:
Jog: You are being stubborn. It is not the same as flipping the bolt and being amazed that the nut still moves the same as before. Unless you actually try what I very carefully typed out - you won't understand.....but you will still be wrong. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/25/17 at 03:52:40 132D2C20322E2F410 wrote:
That is a very good article.....I do use that technique - but I never understood exactly what folks meant when they said "trail braking". (I still don't understand how that term relates to braking into a corner). I read an article from a road racer not long ago, and he was taking time to practice his brake application technique....he felt that by being really smooth on the application & release of the brakes, he could get another 1% faster! He would get on a downhill slope at walking speed and pull in the clutch, and then pull on the front brake lever just enough that he could feel the pads touch the rotor - but not enough to slow or stop the bike...then he would release, and he would repeat that motion over and over. He was fine tuning his ability to be a "surgeon" with his brake application. He believed that smooth application and release of the brakes would give him an edge on the competition. I have been consciously practicing this as I come to turns or intersections, as it will help me to apply the brakes smoothly when I need to get on the brakes in a hurry. When I watch the Asian Scooter crash videos - I see so many of them crash when they instantly grab a handful of front brake.....they don't apply the brake linearly and allow the weight to shift onto the front wheel before they get on the brake really hard. On big open turns at casual speeds, I don't use the brakes and just hold a constant speed. When I hustle along and I am riding in the "sport" mode - I am on the brakes before and into the entrance of the turn - and there are occasions when I have to apply the brakes to slow down while in the corner as the curve becomes sharper, a car in my lane, or a bad/wet spot in the road. Braking in a corner can be done safely - but you have to be able to limit the amount of cornering force vs. braking force. A few years ago one of the younger forum members scolded me when I posted a photo from the Dragon. They gave me a "Shame on You" when they saw me breaking on the way into a curve....I just let it go as I didn't think they were ready for the truth! However......when you are learning the front brake can be a very scary thing when you do it wrong! (Not sure why I can't load links on my computer this morning). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V13lkDkEbqY [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V13lkDkEbqY[/media] |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/25/17 at 05:45:03 I'll study on it Dave. When I can swallow without my ears making oil can sounds and it doesn't sound like my head is in a barrel when I talk, I'll hit the shop and work it out. Check, when the Balloon sensation goes away, maybe I'll see it right.. Strep throat sux. Why did he hit the brake? Gravity is ready and waiting to pounce on anyone who causes front tire to slide. It's Nothing like the rear sliding. I Touched , one finger only, the front brake on the Guzzi in a U turn on gravel. When I stopped sliding my feet were still on the pegs. I'm gonna play with the Trail Braking ideas. I tried looking it up about a month ago.. sure didn't find anything close to this article. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Dave on 05/25/17 at 05:52:32 JOG: Sorry your sick - hope your can kick it ASAP. Being sick is miserable! |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/25/17 at 06:19:51 And while we are talking about corner entry and exit lets talk about the safest way to enter a turn. It should be noted that the technique I'm about to advocate is the polar opposite of how you would enter a turn on a race track. On the track you want to "shorten" and "straighten" the corner by entering early, diving towards the apex, and exiting wide. This is the fastest line through the turn and it's called the "Race Line". Braking for this type of turn involves "Threshold Braking" (heavy application of the brakes just before entering the turn) followed by "Trail Braking" to the corner apex. On the street we don't (or shouldn't) care about the fastest way through the corner, but rather the safest. The priority is a method that gives us maximum visibility through the turn (allowing us to see potential threats) and allowing vehicles in the opposite direction the opportunity to see us. This method is called "Late Apex Turning". I first read about this method 20 years ago in a article written in MCNews by Lee Parks and then later in his book titled "Total Control". Visualize yourself entering a turn that is 90 degrees to the left (I attempted a drawing - it's crap but it makes the point). On the sketch the red line is the Race Line and the green line represents the Late Apex line. The red rider is diving towards the turn apex. If a car in the opposite direction is over the double yellow line, or if there is a threat past the apex, red rider has little room to maneuver to avoid the problem. Green rider, riding deeper into the turn, is away from the double yellow line and has the opportunity (space and time) to make corrections. He has created a turn apex that is setback from the double yellow line. I've also attached an image from triumpthrat.net that also demonstrates the sight line of a late apex turn through a 180 degree blind corner with a decreasing radius. Red rider's race line has taken him directly to the yellow line, whereas green rider has maximum visibility through the turn. On the street, time and space are your friends. Green rider (for both the 90 degree and blind turns) should have applied smooth braking to the initial turn point, reducing lever pressure at the turn point and then releasing lever pressure just before arriving at the (setback) apex, applying throttle post apex to drive through the turn exit. http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Decreasing-Radius-Corner-Graphic.jpg |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by stewmills on 05/25/17 at 06:41:02 Green Riding is what I usually do at the Dragon and places like that, for 2 reasons. 1: The obvious reason as you have stated as it makes for good visibility and safer exiting of those tight and sometimes blind turns. 2: Although I do offer courtesy and let the go-fast bikers pass me on the brief straightaways, I maintain my left travel lane when approaching as well as through most of the turn to keep anyone from trying to zip past me in a turn causing me to be pushed off the road. As far as braking, which was sorta the initial topic, I was taught the 80/20 rule in my MSF course. 80% front and 20% rear, and that's sort of my braking style. However, at places like the Dragon I will ride with my feet up on the highway pegs and seldom shift, and will mostly use 100% methodical front braking throughout and only use the rear if I bring my feet down for any reason. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/25/17 at 07:25:30 Another beneficial riding tip.. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/25/17 at 09:47:52 Some good discussion here and I'm pretty sure my understated comment was overreacted to. It's definitely hard use of the front brake that can get a rider into trouble in a curve or other turn; particularly an inexperienced rider. Tried using an economy of words initially and apparently created havoc. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/25/17 at 10:04:25 Not really derailed because it was brought up in this thread that trying to maximize the stopping power of the rear brake isn't really going to result in better stopping power. As far as I'm concerned, the rear brake is mostly just an emergency brake if the front ever fails (and they do). 4C777B6B7173180 wrote:
You did it again. You are holding fast to a fabricated "fact" that there is some mystery in using the front brake in a turn that makes it "hard". It's not true, stop repeating it. Grabbing a whole bunch of front brake is bad - whether in a turn or going straight line. Modulating the front brake in any condition is the proper technique. Go try some of the very simple techniques that have been discussed. Become a better rider. And if you think I'm being mean by saying "become a better rider", please take note of my signature. I've been riding motorcycles for over 40 years, have raced on all surfaces, and I'm always looking to become a better rider. |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by Tocsik on 05/25/17 at 10:29:27 I meant "hard braking", as in grabbing a handful of front brake in a turn. Not that the act of braking is hard. Not trying to be contentious and never claim to be a know it all. But i'm just not making myself clear or understood. Agreed we can always improve at most anything. Everyone I meet will know something I don't! |
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Title: Re: Grooved brake shoes Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/25/17 at 10:42:34 6B505C4C56543F0 wrote:
Brilliant! And the penalty for initially trying the Economy of Words Can be Yuge . |
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