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Message started by wonderstump on 05/18/17 at 21:37:11

Title: Floppy front end?
Post by wonderstump on 05/18/17 at 21:37:11

Hello, everyone.

This forum has already helped me so much! I just got my used 2009 S40, (my first bike!) and have already adjusted the idle mix and idle speed because of the awesome and easy-to-understand info on the forum. So, thank you!

I just read an article about the S40, making comparisons to other 650s in the light-heavyweight class, and the article mentions that the S40 has a "floppy front end." What does that mean?

I have noticed what I thought was "jerkiness" or lurching in first gear (at or below 10 mph) but as I'm not used to her handling yet, and she seems torque-y, I was wondering if that is to be expected?

My only experience is with a Kawasaki 125 from the MSF course, so explain it to me slowly, and with single syllable words, please. ;)

Thanks for your response in advance,
~wonderstump

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/18/17 at 22:18:21

You got to remember these guys ride a lot of bikes and more than likely are used to sport bikes that they stunt.
The savage front end can be a little whippy if you are riding rough roads.
There is a fork brace that improves the stability if you feel you need it.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by jcstokes on 05/18/17 at 22:40:56

Could you please tell us the publication or website the article was in/on?

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by wonderstump on 05/18/17 at 23:31:08

Thanks for the replies, Vers and jc. :)

Here's the link to the article I read: http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/650cc-class-motorcycles-rebirth-class

I hadn't thought of the reviewers' background as being sport bike oriented, but of course it is. Good point. ;)

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by jcstokes on 05/19/17 at 02:09:58

Please note that having read the review, the floppy front end appears at under 10mph, possibly in certain cornering situations. Having ridden an S40 about 35000 miles plus. I don't think you need be too concerned, and I wouldn't be inclined to worry about a fork brace, a stiffening piece of metal mounted between the forks above the front mudguard, to help with handling. Learn your riding craft, enjoy the bike and enjoy maintaining it. This forum is populated by post menopausal flogged out old riders, whose experience ranges from decades to zilch. You will note that the S40 seems to be an ideal platform for customising, but stay stock until you get more maintenance and riding experience.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/19/17 at 05:32:18

The Savage is a budget bike. Accordingly it uses damping Rod forks and twin chamber shocks. From Race Tech's website:

Damping rods while inexpensive to manufacture have major limitations. To create compression damping, oil is forced through a fixed orifice. Forcing oil through a hole creates very little resistance to flow at low vertical wheel velocities as when hitting a dip or gully or applying the front brakes. This allows the forks to shoot through the travel fairly easily, diving or bottoming in these situations. On the other hand when the wheel hits something square edge, especially at speed, it needs a lot of oil to pass through the damping holes very quickly. Unfortunately the nature of forcing oil through a hole is that as the wheel velocity increases the damping force increases with the square of the velocity. In other words if you double the velocity you get four times the force. This means the hole basically "hydraulic locks" resulting in a harsh spike. Damping rods give the worst of both worlds; they are both too mushy and too harsh at the same time.

Because of the rake of the S40 forks, almost every movement of the forks is what would be considered a high-rate event. In order to provide low-rate damping, Suzuki had to oversize the orifice in the damping rod. This results in poor low-speed damping; i.e. a lot of fork dive with the application of brakes and a very “busy ride” on smooth pavement (you’re basically relying on the spring to do all of the work – and a spring doesn’t have a natural ability to dampen its movement). To compensate, and due to the long stroke during these types of events, Suzuki had to overfill the forks to allow sufficient oil to travel through the damping orifice. Having such a small air-gap restricts the amount of fork travel during high-rate events, causing the forks to hydro-lock. It’s a no-win situation. If the damping rod had a “normal” orifice the forks would be too harsh for low-speed events and still not provide adequate high-speed damping.

As a result of this compromised set-up, the forks are either too soft (slow rate events) or too harsh (high-rate events).

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by batman on 05/19/17 at 05:53:20

Floppy is not a technical term, our bikes have more rake and trail(you can do a search of rake and trail to better understand) the more rake the bike has the more steering input needed to turn the bike at slower speeds,(floppy?) but the more stable they are (going straight) at higher speeds, this may not sound important until you realize that the weight of the s-40 is 368 lbs. while the weight of other 650's can be as much as 200 lbs. more, so they stay more "planted". the added rake makes our lighter bike better able to handle crosswinds and buffeting from semi's at highway speeds.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by stewmills on 05/19/17 at 06:50:12

If you want to see what a fork brace is and how to install, go here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1471017987

Did I really need it to make the bike any better or safer, not really. BUT, I do get a little excited in the twisties and wanted it for whatever added stability it offered (may only be very marginal...) and I have been pleased with it. If all you do is cruise and this is your first bike, just enjoy it for now and come back to this in a year or two when you find yourself riding aggressively in the mountains, etc. If your daily commute has you on a lot of bumpy roads with bridge/overpass connections, tar snakes, etc. this may be something to have on your short list as it is claimed to help keep the front end more stable in those bumpy and sketchy road conditions.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by verslagen1 on 05/19/17 at 07:35:35

Read the article, floppy under 10 mph?
How much riding do you plan to do at 5 mph? ZERO!
This is slipping the clutch, walking the bike in heavy traffic.
While I'll rate myself as good at slow riding as it varies from dead steady on a good day, to... floppy? I wouldn't rate a bike on this.

Clearly the article favors the Hyosung. Seems like they were paid to endorse it and were just looking for something to downgrade the savage or star on.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by wakosama on 05/19/17 at 07:48:17

Floppy? Well, the fork brace does help when you hit that hole that wasn't there yesterday. And slow speed handling practice never goes out of style.

Or you can 'politely' express the viewpoint that sport bikes are too 'twitchy'. :-? Never liked twitchy horses either.

But wait, if you like wrenching, it really can get much better... :)

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1421689358

I just want to ride.... :( >:( :-[
Be well.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by ohiomoto on 05/19/17 at 07:49:33

Like others have said, it's the rake of the front end. Fork braces won't change that.

When I got my bike the previous owner had drag bars with the risers mounted backwards. This moved the bars out ahead of the top clamp and made for some very interesting slow speed handling! I swapped that set up for super bars and it felt fine. So the bars you are running will affect how much floppiness you feel. Things got even better in the handling department when I lowered the forks. But, the forks are pretty limited in their travel now so there is a compromise there.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by wakosama on 05/19/17 at 09:51:24

Thanks ohiomoto. I do remember it was interesting trying to get used to the stock bars with tall risers. So I installed clubman bars horns up [upside down?] with the reused short top riser sections. Now there's no more noticeable wrist torque and it much more easily goes where I push/lean it even slowly; like a motorcycle. Well... it works for me, and I can always flip them over if I want. 8-)

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by wonderstump on 05/19/17 at 10:23:47

Thanks to everyone for your input!

I got back more information, specification, explanation, and education than I was expecting! That's awesome.

You're right about low-speed maneuvering practice, of course.

I will do some research on rake and trail, and let it sit my brains until it makes some more sense.

I am so green to all of this, I'd just thought I'd ask about the low-speed handling.

Thank you for answering back a thousandfold.

I'm not planning on any big changes with my bike, still too new to be thinking of adjustments, especially when I don't know what her baseline is yet. So much learning to do! :)

Thanks, everyone. You're all amazing. 8-)

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by wonderstump on 05/19/17 at 10:30:13

And thanks for reminding me of the "budget bike" truth, Gary.
There are just certain realities that have to be faced about the bike's capabilities. And that's OK!

There are a lot of compelling reasons I picked her as my first bike—
commuter-ability, fit for me (I'm 5'2"), light-weight, highway capable if necessary, and easy to get parts for / simplicity of design = less steps to repair.

A lot of pros! :)

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by bobert_FSO on 05/19/17 at 10:42:34

I'm with Batman. I think the term "floppy" is not doesn't refer to the front end flexing, but rather the tendency of a bike with a large rake to have the front wheel fall or "flop" to the side at slow speeds. This requires the rider to more actively steer the bike at slow speeds.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/19/17 at 11:31:16

Fork dive and fork flex are two unrelated issues.

Fork dive (aka floppiness in this thread) is a result of a spring rate that does not match the bike and rider combined weight and damping that allows the fork to compress in an uncontrolled or undesirable manner.

Fork flex is a result of the fork stanchions twisting while under load during a turn. The savage forks are prone to this behavior due to the thin stanchions (37mm) used and the rake of the forks. A fork brace can significantly reduce the amount of fork flex. In extreme cases (which the Savage is susceptible) fork flex can lead to tire cupping.

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by oldNslow on 05/19/17 at 11:51:16

2B262B2C3B3D490 wrote:

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by jcstokes on 05/19/17 at 13:22:29

Referring to Stewmills comment about "tar snakes" can you tell us what brand your tyres are?

Title: Re: Floppy front end?
Post by IslandRoad on 05/19/17 at 17:43:49

625C5D51435F5E300 wrote:

[quote author=2B262B2C3B3D490 link=1495168631/0#14 date=1495215754]I'm with Batman. I think the term "floppy" is not doesn't refer to the front end flexing, but rather the tendency of a bike with a large rake to have the front wheel fall or "flop" to the side at slow speeds. This requires the rider to more actively steer the bike at slow speeds.

I agree.

From the article:

"But under 10 mph those short, high-rise bars and the skinny 19-inch front wheel combine to make one of the floppiest front ends we've experienced."

The highlighted part of the quote is an exaggeration, but the savage front wheel does have a tendency to fall into a turn at extremely slow speeds. It isn't really much of an issue though, just something to be aware of. It's not a defect, or an engineering shortcoming either. It's just a function of the steering geometry, which is perfectly fine at normal riding speeds.

"
[/quote]

I also took it to mean 'falling into a corner' at slow speed. It was one of the first things I noticed when I started riding this bike. I found slightly wider handlebars made a huge difference; then lowering them a touch, basically eliminated it all together. I assume due to better leverage.