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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Swing arm tolerances /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1494864118 Message started by norm92de on 05/15/17 at 09:01:58 |
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Title: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/15/17 at 09:01:58 When adjusting my belt tension I noticed that the width of the swing arm forks is 1/16" wider than the width of the wheel assembly. Which of course means that when tightened the swing arm forks are squeezed together. I'm thinking of doing the Home depot thing and finding a 1/16" spacer to take up the gap. Anybody else run into this problem? :'( |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by verslagen1 on 05/15/17 at 09:06:45 This is not the problem you are looking for... move along. Just last weekend I noticed as I loosened the nut on the axle how much it sprung out. And how easy it was to drop the wheel and get the spacers out. And later when I reassembled, aligning the break hub was easy. So you got to cinch it up more. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/15/17 at 09:23:26 3A3B26396D663031540 wrote:
What problem? That gap is there by design. Now, if the gap was there after properly torquing the axle nut, then we'd be talking about a problem. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Dave on 05/15/17 at 09:31:16 Can you imagine how hard it would be to fit all those loose parts together and slide it into the swing arm - if the little gap wasn't provided! It is a gift from Suzuki to make our life easier! |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/15/17 at 10:55:19 I guess I asked for that :'( |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/15/17 at 18:17:06 You came out alright. What if you would have FixtIt first, Then came in here asking howcum putting it together is harder. ? |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by buster6315 on 05/15/17 at 18:52:29 415245445B5650525906370 wrote:
Flex-ability! That's a beautiful thing in more ways than one! |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/16/17 at 14:20:12 And now we know the reason that the lines on the swingarm can't be used to align the belt. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/16/17 at 14:54:18 Next question! Which is more important wheel alignment with the centerline of the bike or pulley tracking/alignment? ;D |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/16/17 at 16:06:49 Pulley alignment |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/16/17 at 16:42:51 But if the bearing in the pulley is good and the rubber shock absorbers aren't worn they should both be very close. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/16/17 at 18:34:26 Knowing what I do about manufacturing tolerances. We need to consult Kevin Cameron. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/16/17 at 18:37:42 My opinion. Wheel alignment reigns supreme! It is, after all, a two wheeled vehicle. Both of them should be going in the same direction. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/16/17 at 19:13:43 37362B34606B3D3C590 wrote:
You would be wrong. If the pulleys are out of alignment the belt will wear in short order. On the extreme side, you run the risk of the belt riding up the side of a pulley and removing itself. The wheel adjustment marks are not to be trusted. If the marks are off by half a notch, but the pulleys are in alignment, then you should ignore the hash marks. BTW, being a single track vehicle, a motorcycle has the ability to manage front / rear misalignment quite well. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/16/17 at 20:09:50 I don't know how far off the pulley would have to be to ride up the sides. But I'll take my chances with wheel alignment. A rider- not me anymore- would know in a second if the wheels were out of alignment. I suppose being around aircraft has made me picky about adjustment. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/16/17 at 20:51:03 All three bearings are mounted on the axle ,there are spacers on each end,and in between the wheel bearing and pulley bearing ,how much misalignment can there be? If the bearings are in good shape little to none. If you align the belt the wheel should be also. Don't be making mountains out of mole hills . |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Eegore on 05/17/17 at 05:21:18 I'll have to agree with Batman here. Its hard to be considerably out of alignment given how tight everything is. I have intentionally ran the belt out of alignment on both sides of the pulleys and the tire isn't drastically out of alignment. There's just not much room to play with. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/17/17 at 05:34:35 62637E61353E68690C0 wrote:
As a builder of aircraft, and someone that designs components for aircraft, I'm a bit picky too. See how I one-upped you there. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/17/17 at 10:48:30 Gary, You what? |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by buster6315 on 05/17/17 at 11:05:59 7A70747E757C78712F292D1D0 wrote:
You would be wrong. If the pulleys are out of alignment the belt will wear in short order. On the extreme side, you run the risk of the belt riding up the side of a pulley and removing itself. The wheel adjustment marks are not to be trusted. If the marks are off by half a notch, but the pulleys are in alignment, then you should ignore the hash marks. BTW, being a single track vehicle, a motorcycle has the ability to manage front / rear misalignment quite well. [/quote] Some years ago on a rally run I witnessed 1 bike in particular that was 'dog walking' noticeably, and the rider seemed oblivious to the situation. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/17/17 at 11:10:55 3839243B6F643233560 wrote:
Builder: Vans RV-6 (1989) Asst Build: Vans RV-4 (1991) Commercial/Instrument Repairmans' Certificate BS Aeronautical Engineering Worked in aerospace industry since 1985 |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/17/17 at 12:21:39 Gary, Beautiful aircraft, nice job. Be careful, experimental and all that. I won't go into my experience ratings etc. But I would like to say that I experienced many "delightfully entertaining" experiences due to mechanic/engineer mistakes. I was fortunate to walk away from some of them. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/17/17 at 18:03:35 Does the main gear mount to a single part that crosses the fuselage below the leading edge? |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/17/17 at 18:08:35 Buster the bike you saw was chain driven? there 's some side flex in a chain it would still stay on the sprockets with the wheel misaligned ,but chain life would suffer. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/17/17 at 19:03:10 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote:
The main gear legs are integrated into the engine mount. They are made of tapered T6061. The slot that they slide into is very close to the firewall. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by buster6315 on 05/17/17 at 19:14:16 7172677E727D272B130 wrote:
It was a chain drive Sportster: Looked like someone had tightened the chain w/o also pulling the other side back also. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/19/17 at 06:49:00 bottom line, tire $100+/- , Belt $275 , I'll align the belt. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by ohiomoto on 05/19/17 at 09:24:28 My belt made noise when I tried to center it on the rear pulley. I took the front cover off to find it was tracking on the inside of the front pulley. I couldn't get it to ride in the middle of both so I said F'it and just aligned everything off the marks that those Suzuki engineers had put on the swing arm. Now the belt rides lightly against the outside of the rear pulley and low and behold, my belt don't squeal and my tire's wearing evenly. KISS ;) |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/19/17 at 11:44:54 Ohiomoto, I was beginning to think I was the resident heretic, expecting to get a visit from someone with matches and kindling. That is pretty much what happens on my bike. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by ohiomoto on 05/19/17 at 12:38:55 Yep! And, my belt isn't showing any signs of wear, it hasn't jumped off the pulley and the sky hasn't fallen yet. The belt probably wants to walk around on that pulley every time I take a corner anyway. Last I checked, we still have gravity on earth. I think belt [tension probably plays a bigger role in all of this anyway. Oh, wait weren't we talking about swing arm tolerances? Yeah, I think those little lines those engineers at Suzuki gave will do just fine for most of us. ;) |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/19/17 at 12:50:02 Well a hate to give away all my secrets, but here goes ,buy two locking washers and put one on the drive shaft then install the pulley and the second washer and the nut. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/19/17 at 14:18:45 Batman, Does that mean that your swing arm marks are lined up? |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by ohiomoto on 05/20/17 at 04:49:06 I think Batman is saying that he used a washer to move the front pulley out to allow the belt to ride the center of both pulleys. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/20/17 at 07:28:36 Ohiomoto ,would be correct! Norm ,forget the lines! If you adjust to the lines,and there is 1/16 of gap between the arms of swingarm,what happens when you torque the axle to 64 ft/lbs ? which arm moved?You pull the wheel out of alignment! Do you really think that Suzuki took the time to make sure those lines where perfectly spaced on each and every swingarm? hell no! they're just a guide to get you in the ball park.Align the belt!!!! You will never be able to perfectly align the wheel .Tires come and go,but my drive belt is starting it's 22nd year. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by ohiomoto on 05/20/17 at 20:05:48 Norm, the lines are good enough, my belt is 21 years old and looks like new! ;) ;D |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Dave on 05/21/17 at 02:23:54 It takes a bit of fiddly work - but measure the distance from the front edge of the rear pulley to a wheel spoke - they do the same at the rear of the pulley. If you find the distance at the front is noticeably less than the distance at the rear - that shows the belt tension is pulling the rear pulley forward, and as a result the belt will slide to the outside of the pulleys.......and the squealing can begin. This "misalignment" is caused by the bearing in the pulley hub getting worn and allowing too much movement - and the rubber floor mat shims can help to correct the problem. A more permanent repair is a new pulley hub bearing.....and a bushing installed on the inside of the pulley hub - for some reason Suzuki machined the area too loose! http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1480506578 |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by ohiomoto on 05/21/17 at 05:48:04 Dave is correct (as usual :) ). I think what often gets overlooked is the fact that the inside of the pulley rides on a bunch of rubber. There is some play at the rear pulley. The rear wheel rides on 2 bearings and a solid axle. There shouldn't be any lateral movement. That's why I'm not 100% sold on trying to center the belt at the expense of wheel alignment. I'm not saying that the lines are perfect or that you can't fudge things a little bit. But to take that to any extreme would be foolish in my opinion. If you have to do anything drastic to get your belt to run quiet, you have bigger issues and you might want to look at solutions like the ones Batman and Dave mentioned. Has anyone every run a laser down the outside of the rear pulley to the outside of the front pulley? |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/17 at 06:07:19 String, under the belt on the front pulley, spin to front, pulled tight and brought to the face of the rear edge of the rear pulley will show you everything you are trying to see. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/22/17 at 12:49:02 Did cheat a little on my bike. I put a 1/16" washer inside the swing arm to take up the space left by Suzuki. That reduced the offset by that amount, not much but some. I found that to get the pulleys perfect, belt centered, the marks were way off. :'( The belt rides on the outside of the rear pulley with the marks lined up- A la Suzuki. No belt noise. Incidentally, I have my belt a little tighter than recommended here. I can get 90* twist but it takes a LOT of effort. Eyeballing the belt set up as recommended looked very slack to me. What happens if a person uses the Suzuki gage? It is very tight. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/22/17 at 12:50:03 By the way, I used Norman torque on the axle. :) |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Dave on 05/22/17 at 13:01:35 7879647B2F247273160 wrote:
Loosen the adjusters a bit and let the axle move forward....then snug up the axle and see you you can wiggle the rear pulley when grasping the front and rear - this will tell you if the pulley hub bearing is bad and is allowing too much movement. This is what likely is making your belt move to the outside of the pulley - especially if your belt is too tight. I believe a belt that is a bit loose is better than one that is a bit too tight. (Just like underwear) ;) |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by batman on 05/22/17 at 20:54:54 Norm ,I keep my Suzuki belt gauge on a shelf right next to my stock petcock. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Kenny G on 05/22/17 at 20:59:54 Does the sewing machine sound I get when decelerating have any thing to do with belt tension or alignment? Kenny G :-/ |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/17 at 21:50:37 Not squeaking is the goal. The belt is engaging pulleys. Won't be silent. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/23/17 at 12:02:29 Dave, Just checked my bike. Belt loose, axle tight. Maybe a sixteenth of an inch play fore and aft when grasping the pulley. I would think that is reasonable for a rubber mounted pulley. The belt tension must be pretty high at 60 mph especially up hill or when accelerating. I'm going to try centering the belt to see how far off the swing arm marks are. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/23/17 at 12:04:56 Batman, Me too, have not used the Zuki tension gage since I got the bike. :) |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/23/17 at 12:06:27 42435E41151E48492C0 wrote:
A laser shot across the surface of both pulleys works best. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by buster6315 on 05/23/17 at 18:58:36 I like to jack the rear wheel off the ground, and turn the wheel forward and rearward, to see how the belt rides in the rear pulley. |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by Dave on 05/24/17 at 03:14:03 75626463726521242622170 wrote:
When using this method to check, the axle must be pretty snug, as the pulley hub is pulled into contact with the hub bearing by the axle. If you try to check the belt tracking with a loose axle - the belt will not track the same way that it will when the axle is tightened (the pulley can shift forward under belt tension, and cause the belt to move outward on the pulley). |
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Title: Re: Swing arm tolerances Post by norm92de on 05/25/17 at 18:21:39 Rode my bike today. The axle is off by 2mm and the belt rides a little to the outside. No belt noise. Incidentally, the Suzuki swing arm marks are 3mm apart. I may say Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo it and just line up the marks. ;D |
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