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Message started by Dave on 04/27/17 at 06:10:22

Title: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Dave on 04/27/17 at 06:10:22

Did the motorcycle evolve wrong?

I got to pondering my old motocross and hare scrambles days. My motorcycle was a TM125 Suzuki, and it had small drum brakes and they were pretty poor by current standards. The front brake was really marginal, and I can remember in dry conditions my ability to go fast was limited by how hard I could squeeze the front brake....and in wet conditions it was always a challenge to keep the rear wheel from locking up on those slippery downhill portions leading to the creek bottoms. I believe the same was true of street bikes - the front drum of performance bikes had double leading shoes (4 brakes shoes in each drum), and some even had drums on both sides of the front wheel in an attempt to get braking that could match engine perforance.

So.....knowing that you can stomp on a brake pedal with much more force than you can squeeze a short handlebar mounted lever - should the front brake have been operated by the pedal...and the rear brake operated by a hand lever? Would that have provided the ability to get more power to the front brake....and more precise control to the rear brake?

It really doesn't matter with the current hydraulic disc brakes - there is plenty of power and control available. It may have made a difference with the old drum brake technology.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 04/27/17 at 06:18:05

I'm gonna argue that the lever is a perfect way to engage the front brake, especially a drum brake. My reasoning is this, as important as stopping power, is the smooth application of the brakes. This is especially true for brakes that are grabby. Stomping on a grabby front brake is a quick trip to visit the ground.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Dave on 04/27/17 at 06:25:31

I will admit...that on my trials motorcycle I had more trouble modulating the foot pedal than I did the hand lever.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by stewmills on 04/27/17 at 07:52:39

Yeah, and think about the aspect of gravity in this situation. If you pull too hard on the front brake lever and it throws you forward, yes you tend to "hold on" to the bars but not necessarily with an increase in pressure on the brake lever.

If you stomp on the brake pedal (if it controlled the front brake) and it throws you forward, you may have a tendency to put more foot pressure on the brake pedal making the problem worse, etc. and then you fall down go boom.

Who wants to be the first one to switch up their brake controls and go for a Dragon run and let us know how it works :o :o :o

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by LANCER on 04/27/17 at 08:05:46

6D6A7B69737772726D1E0 wrote:

Well ok then, stewmills has volunteered for that assignment !
YEA ! ! ! Hip Hip Hooray ! ! !
;) :o 8-) ;D ;D

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/27/17 at 08:24:31

Interesting ideas.
Riding the trials bike, probably not a smooth road.
Leverage , master cylinder design, caliper design, all affect the brake sensitivity.
Braking just might be improved this way, but I would expect that new riders who never knew the Reflexive use of brakes as we know them would be the ones who could evaluate it.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by verslagen1 on 04/27/17 at 08:49:07

7F78697B616560607F0C0 wrote:

Who wants to be the first one to switch up their brake controls and go for a Dragon run and let us know how it works :o :o :o

I couldn't even handle the switch from left to right on BSA.
But, anyone expecting to go from conventional controls to front to back configuration in a heart beat should also expect earth to meet Heine toot sweet.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by oldNslow on 04/27/17 at 09:23:16

417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:

I will admit...that on my trials motorcycle I had more trouble modulating the foot pedal than I did the hand lever.

There are some roadracers that have a thumb lever on the left handelbar to operate the rear brake for exactly that reason. They don't use the rear brake a lot, but when they do sensitivity is important. Most people have a lot better dexterity with their hands than with their feet.

I think some stunt bikes are set up with hand operated rear brakes also.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Serowbot on 04/27/17 at 10:40:00

Seems like one more appendage would be handy... (pun intended)... :-/

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by raydawg on 04/27/17 at 12:31:13

I will say I think brakes are set up in a manner to give the most optimal braking need under an extreme need, like you have to stop as fast as you can.....
And that being the case I want my foot in a spot that can provide balance, and my hand(s)with the ability to still navigate (turn) in that critical moment.
All the rest is more about riding style, I believe....

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Ruttly on 04/27/17 at 12:36:29

I love R & D stuff , but I'm gonna pass on this one ! ;D

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Tocsik on 04/27/17 at 12:36:40

5345524F57424F54200 wrote:

Seems like one more appendage would be handy... (pun intended)... :-/

http://https://img.memecdn.com/Nintendo-64_o_47312.jpg http://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/03/24/6359438452018822521443236177_N64.png

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by engineer on 04/27/17 at 19:08:16

I vaguely remember riding a small displacement bike or scooter once that had hand levers for the front and back brakes. Whatever it was existed in the 50s or early 60s and had a centrifugal clutch which left room for the second brake lever. The set up worked OK for what it was.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Ruttly on 04/27/17 at 20:10:48

The Honda CT90 s had a rear brake that worked with the pedal or right side lever. It was a ok set up but it really came in handy when off road and in the low range , if the bike could get traction it would take you anywhere and when in tight slow areas standing on the pegs it worked really good. What great bike , power of a lawn mower , but could go anywhere but on the freeway. Did a one day 250 mile trip on mine ,all back roads.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by MMRanch on 04/27/17 at 22:30:38

My friend Charles has an old G-Wing. It has front brake "can be applied by its self" , and rear brake pedal that is like a car break pedal. The rear pedal applies both brakes. I like to use the rear by itself for manovering purpouses , but Charles dosn't have that option ... :P

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Dave on 04/28/17 at 03:54:36

My Honda NT700 has a dual disc on the front, and each caliper has 2 pistons. The rear brake pedal operates the rear caliper and 1 piston in the front brake.....the hand lever operates 3 pistons in the front brake.

I don't know why it is set up this way....maybe so folks who are afraid to use the front brake still get some front brake if they are only using the pedal.

When riding it.......I have never noticed anything that feels different than a normal brake system.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by philthymike on 04/28/17 at 07:22:31

When I was kid my 1980 ATC110 had both foot pedal and lever for it's single rear drum brake. It was auto clutch so the lever served as a parking brake. But I remember that I used to use the lever more than the pedal.

Since I bought my Ducati I have to say that all of my skepticism of ABS is long gone. I really think all bikes should have it. veering off the road onto a gravel/dirt parking lot at 45 mph and coming to a perfectly controlled stop in 25 feet with no lockup impressed the heck out me.

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by Ruttly on 04/28/17 at 09:36:23

What duc do you own ?

Title: Re: Nonsense brake discussion
Post by philthymike on 04/28/17 at 12:18:16

7C5B5A5A42572E0 wrote:

What duc do you own ?

its a 2013 Hyperstrada 821.