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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Front pulley noise while applying throttle /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1492837497 Message started by Eegore on 04/21/17 at 22:04:56 |
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Title: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 04/21/17 at 22:04:56 So before I do more work on my 95 I was wondering if I should address my front pulley noise. I read through the troubleshooting guides here and they typically point to pulley/belt issues. A local mechanic said since its only squealing (and its loud) when I apply throttle that its a final drive issue and it needs reworked. Its silent unless I apply throttle and its worse in higher gears. It seems like the belt is a bit too tight and I'm pretty sure that there's an oversize tire (150 - 90) so there isn't any more room to move the rear tire forward. So I'm looking for suggestions, do I have a smaller tire put on, a new belt, or dump a few grand into the front pulley shaft (or whatever its officially called) before I have some catastrophic failure? Thanks for any insight here. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Yoshi on 04/22/17 at 01:11:58 You can still fully adjust the belt with that size tire You need to make sure your front pully is tight Your rear rire might not be staright which would cause the belt to track to the side, check left and right alignment bolts |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 04/22/17 at 04:09:53 You need to be sure the front pulley nut is tight - this is really important. If you can't move your rear wheel forward to adjust proper belt tension - your rear tire is too big. Having the belt too tight will ruin it - look for small tension cracks across the outside of the belt.....for some reason they develop white streaks after a while that make them easy to spot. (Tighten your pants belt 3 notches too tight, and you will get an idea what this is doing to your bike). Grab your rear pulley, and see how badly it wobbles - don't rotate it - but try moving the front of the pulley in toward the tire and then out from the tire. If it wobbles more than a small amount, you have worn the pulley hub bearing with your overly tight belt. You can try the rubber floor mat shim method listed in the Tech Section - or you may have to replace the bearing. It is also possible to have a bushing machined for the rear pulley hub that eliminates the excess play....and this keeps the belt in alignment and the associated noise (When you accelerate the torque is pulling the rear pulley crooked - and the belt then rubs on the side of the front pulley. You can also bevel the edge of the teeth on the belt, and this helps to reduce noise. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1446828836/0 |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 04/22/17 at 07:20:21 There isn't any play in the rear or front pulley at all. I will jack the bike up and see if I can see any alignment issue going on. Wouldn't the rim of the tire wobble if its out of alignment? I see other people on here using the same size tire so I'm not too sure if I need to replace this one but I will if I cant get this squeal to go away. Thanks for the info on identifying the outer tension cracks. Just a clarification here: On a belt that has excessive tension it would be the rear tire assembly that should fail before the front drive mechanism correct? Thanks again |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 04/22/17 at 07:59:11 7C5C5E564B5C390 wrote:
I think we've heard just as many issues with the main shaft bearing as the wheel bearings. Neither one usually. I don't see where you've told us how much tension is on the belt. How much can you twist it? or how much will it flop up and down? Typical chain measurement. I've had a bad bearing in my counter balancer, and that would squeal very loudly... intermittently like bad belt on a car. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 04/22/17 at 08:30:56 0E2E2C24392E4B0 wrote:
If your rear axle is out of alignment - the belt will be sitting on one side of the pulley...it will not be centered. When you apply the throttle is pulls hard on the back pulley, and tends to pull it forward....which tilts the pulley in a way that allows the belt to move outward on the pulley....and you get noise as the belt moves outward on the front pulley in response to the movement of the rear pulley. The rear wheel hub has 2 bearings....and the load from the belt and rear pulley don't really affect the rear wheel bearings. The pulley hub has a single bearing inside - and that is where almost all of the belt/pulley loads go.....and there have been a few failures of this bearing. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/22/17 at 08:49:00 Until the belt tension and alignment are correct knowing if something is wrong deeper inside won't be easy. You've gotta get those things right, even if you hafta get a tire. You should not be riding with the belt like a banjo string. That could cause problems. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by SALB on 04/22/17 at 09:17:34 A 150-90 tire really is too big. I put one on my last S40, and even after smoothing the welds in the center of the swingarm, the old stretched belt barely fit. :-[ |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 04/22/17 at 09:44:22 Regarding belt tension I can twist it 90 degrees by gripping the center lower band with one hand (thumb and all fingers) however my friend can not unless he applies "decent" force. His girlfriend cant twist it more than maybe 40 degrees. I can not twist it a full 90 degrees with one finger and thumb. I cant find anything about testing tension by moving the belt up/down. Also unless I'm seeing how to do this wrong I can not adjust the tension to be more loose as the tire is all the way forward. Ive used this as reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2ZsZzTwRyk I can pretty much replicate whats going on there although there's no real "measurements" going on. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 04/22/17 at 10:02:09 Don't go by the marks on the frame when adjusting rear wheel they are not even close to being right, jack the rear and spin the wheel until the belt tracks in the middle of the pulley. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by norm92de on 04/22/17 at 11:36:12 A method that I use for "chain" alignment is to remove the belt/chain guard so that I can look along the belt and easily see the alignment. A long straight edge also helps. As Batman said the marks are not really a good guide for accurate work. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 04/22/17 at 11:50:55 62716667787573717A25140 wrote:
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/06/17 at 16:20:33 Alright so after looking through these forums and making what adjustments I can I think I have it down to the problem being both options, bad belt alignment and front bearing (or whatever it is that makes up the front pulley assembly). If I lube up my belt there is less noise, but once I'm in 3rd gear there is definitely squeal off the front pulley that happens even if throttle isn't applied. Problem is I have a 150/90 tire (even though Ive been told it wont fit, I assure you its there) so I cant adjust the rear pulley any further forward so I might just be stuck with bad belt tension for a while. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/07/17 at 11:43:56 Question about how to deal with this front pulley noise. The shops around here can replace the bearing for about 4500-5500, (engine rebuild basically) the advantage being I don't have to worry about it for a while. I also assume I could try to put on a new pulley and see if that fixes the noise, the advantage being saving some money. I read some of the posts regarding this and some people need bearings and some don't, however I might be overlooking some options. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Tocsik on 05/07/17 at 14:36:09 4500-5500. Is that dollars? Sorry, no idea where you are. You can get a new bike for that. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by SALB on 05/07/17 at 14:40:06 4666646C7166030 wrote:
Mine fit too. Going down the road, centrifugal forces would cause the tire''s radius to grow, allowing it to rub in the center of the swingarm about the time I shifted from third to forth. If you can't move the rear tire forward enough to adjust the belt, then does the tire really fit? :-? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by piedmontbuckeye on 05/07/17 at 15:18:05 I had a squeal in mine (2011) when I purchased it used, and what I simply did was to loosen it up, as it was definitely too tight. The P/O had just had a new rear tire installed and they must not have known what to do. That solved my problem! I took real care though to make sure that both sides were lined up with the marks on the swingarm perfectly. I know someone had suggested to ignore those marks and align my watching how the belt tracked on the rear pulley by trying to get it to track in the middle. I think that is a mistake. The tracking marks are there for a reason - to make sure the front and rear wheels/tires track with each other and the bike handles safely and correctly. Belt too loose is better than too tight! |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/07/17 at 18:35:26 01020115030B05600 wrote:
Mine fit too. Going down the road, centrifugal forces would cause the tire''s radius to grow, allowing it to rub in the center of the swingarm about the time I shifted from third to forth. If you can't move the rear tire forward enough to adjust the belt, then does the tire really fit? :-? :-/ [/quote] I'm familiar with tire expansion, but I have no wear/rub marks on my swingarm which I assume I would see something where it rubs right? With the bike jacked up I can definitely hear noise only at the front pulley while my friend shifts forward in gears. Once this tire wears out I will reduce size so I wont have to worry about replacing pulleys and belts. I can twist the belt with no problem, however my friend cant get a full 90 degrees and his girlfriend can barely move it so it might be too tight. The 90 degree twist method has a lot of variables. In any case since the front pulley is not completely straight I was looking to find out if I have options beyond replacing the pulley or if that doesn't work rebuilding the front drive and if I go that route Im just going to have the whole engine done while its apart. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/07/17 at 18:37:56 417A76667C7E150 wrote:
Im out east of Pueblo, that's to have everything torn down and rebuilt, not just the front drive bearing. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/07/17 at 21:43:26 I can twist the belt with no problem, however my friend cant get a full 90 degrees and his girlfriend can barely move it so it might be too tight. I wouldn't argue with you. The cost of replacing stuff inside the engine might be more than one tire. Not saying you w i ll, but it would seem like a possible problem a Too Tight belt Could cause. If a Genuine Suzuki belt tensioner guide says it's okay, it's too tight to run quietly. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/08/17 at 05:30:50 57484E4954536252625A48440F3D0 wrote:
Once I lube up the belt I don't get noise until 3rd gear or higher and its the front pulley from what I can tell. Is this still a potential belt issue? I assumed the belt would make noise under torque in any gear not just 3 on up but I could be wrong. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/08/17 at 06:11:29 If you can't adjust the proper belt tension without the tire rubbing the swing arm.....the tire is too big. A belt that is a bit too loose is much better than a belt that is too tight. When you have the belt too tight it puts excessive pressure on the countershaft bearing at the front pulley, the rear pulley, and the belt. A new belt is 3 times the cost of a new tire......and far cheaper than replacing a countershaft bearing that requires complete disassembly of the engine. If you have cracks across the outside of the belt....your belt is already damaged. Here is a photo that shows a crack beginning on the outside of a belt - for some reason they get white deposits at the cracks. http://i65.tinypic.com/5pto2.jpg |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/08/17 at 07:50:26 I examined the belt for cracks, that image helped for future reference. There's no noise with a lubed belt until 3rd gear, I assumed its a pulley issue at that point as the belt would make noise in all gears right? Or is it possible that a tight belt would only make intermittent noise above 3rd gear? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 05/08/17 at 10:47:11 It seems funny that your willing to spend 5000 on a rebuild ,but you won't spend the money to just buy a 140/90/15 tire to try and fix part your problem. (the belt being to tight) the bearings on the drive shaft being inside the case have very little chance of being damaged,if you take off the drive pulley cover ,you should be looking at the in side of it ,there are a couple of raised webs and if you see anywhere the pulley has scraped it ,your front pulley is loose and moving in and out on the splines,You should have the rear wheel off to change the tire ,so remove the belt a try to shake the shaft ,to check for play in the bearings,next place the bike in gear and try to move the pulley front and back this would tell you the splines are worn another indication the nut is loose. the nut should be torqued to 94 ft/lbs. Next you need to inspect the rear drive,check the bearing in the drive pulley for play ,and before removal grab it at 3and 9 o'clock does it wiggle? Bad bearing or you need to do the "rubber mat "mod or seeing you had it off to do the 150 tire mount did you put the spacer that goes between the wheel and the drive pulley in properly or backward or missing? On reassembly spin the tire frontward and backward to align ,don't go buy the factory lines on the swingarm .You could buy a new bike for5000, you could spend 5000 on a motor rebuild and still have the same problem,or you could spend less than 200 and fix the problem ,you choose! |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/08/17 at 13:01:44 Consensus IS replace the tire,, align and adjust belt tension. Or, risk spending multiples of the cost of a tire. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Hamman on 05/08/17 at 14:22:23 Pick up some belt dressing.... |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/08/17 at 15:26:07 I'm fine with replacing belts and pulleys as they wear down that's not really the concern. I've gotten good info here regarding options besides just replacing the final drive as the mechanics around here say and I plan on trying them out. (An engine rebuild would just be handy as I wouldn't have to worry about it for a few years and I'd know for sure the front pulley shaft is straight) I still wonder however if a greased/lubed/otherwise coated belt would only make noise only after 3rd gear. My assumption is that the belt would make noise in all gears, but I could be wrong on that. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by oldNslow on 05/08/17 at 16:36:15 Eegore, I'm going to chime in here to suggest that you are ignoring some valuable advice that a few of the previous responders to your posts have offered. I don't wan't to offend you but I think you need to consider this. Quote:
In my opinion, regardless of what is causing the noise, a 4500 to 5000 dollar engine rebuild on a 22 year old motorcycle that is worth, optimistically and in excellent condition, about a thousand dollars, is not "handy" it is economic insanity. The MSRP of a brand new 2017, S40 ( what Suzuki now calls the Savage) is $5,799. Excellent condition five to ten year old examples with very low mileage can be found in the two to three thousand dollar range. I don't know what the used motorcycle market is like where you live, but I suspect it can't be that different from what it is like here in Western New York. Craigslist and even the large motorsports dealers within 50 or so miles of where I live are literally awash in excellent, mechanically sound used motorcycles of all different brands in the 4 to 5 thousand dollar price range. It's your money, and your motorcycle, and I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do, but before you hand your bike over to the guy who offered to rebuild the motor at least give my comments some consideration. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Jarhead-CO on 05/08/17 at 17:32:04 I'll sell you my 2012 s40 with 700 miles on it for 5000. ;D |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/08/17 at 17:46:15 Im not really looking for another bike to chop up, at this point Im just wondering more along the technical lines of if belt would make noise only after 3rd gear. My assumption is that it would make noise in all gears and not just 3 on up, but I could be wrong. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/08/17 at 19:34:59 0424262E3324410 wrote:
There really should not be any goop, lube, grease on the belt....they are supposed to run dry. Lubing/gooping them up will attract dirt and grit. With proper alignment the belt does not rub on anything, and does not make noise. The thin part of the belt teeth rest on the flat of the pulley teeth....they don't really make much noise. If the belt is rubbing on the side of a pulley...that makes noise. If the noise is coming from the back....maybe your pulley hub bearing is going bad. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 05/08/17 at 19:51:00 Your worried that the shaft is straight? what makes you think it could ever be bent ,the 29 hp the bike puts out? It's harden steel it doesn't bend! why don't you disassemble things and look!Find out what's wrong and fix it! lubing the belt is like taking an aspirin to cure cancer.Your inexperience with the bike doesn't favor you guessing.It's time to quit talking about the noise and start wrenchin". |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 05:30:23 4F4C59404C4319152D0 wrote:
I asked on this forum, in this thread: "Just a clarification here: On a belt that has excessive tension it would be the rear tire assembly that should fail before the front drive mechanism correct?" Response: "I think we've heard just as many issues with the main shaft bearing as the wheel bearings. Neither one usually" So I figure I would address both issues while I'm working on it. Make sure the front shaft is straight with a rebuild, replace front/rear pulley, replace belt and see if there's noise. If there is put on another tire and see if there's noise then. I plan on having this stuff done, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't still wonder why a belt would only make noise from 3rd gear on up. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/09/17 at 05:52:21 Odd as it is that the belt is quiet up to third gear , that doesn't mean that you start by replacing parts in the motor. Ditch the TIRE , and adjust your belt tension, or, ask questions and do what you want. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/09/17 at 05:53:19 5171737B6671140 wrote:
Well it must be related to the speed the pulley is rotating. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 06:44:54 665D5047565A41475C545946350 wrote:
Well it must be related to the speed the pulley is rotating. [/quote] Makes sense. I will just have to do some research into how friction with a belt like that works. Its basically a squeak....squeak....squeak...that turns into a high pitched wail as I increase speed and it remains once the throttle is released, and returns to being silent as it slows. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/09/17 at 07:38:20 As I said earlier.....the belt should not be rubbing on the side of the pulleys. If you have a squeak.....the belt is not in alignment. The most probable cause of the misalignment is either the rear axle not being adjusted properly - or the overly tight belt is pulling the rear pulley out of alignment. I suspect if you look at your belt you will see that it is not centered in the rear pulley - it is all the way over to the outside....this is a result of the "too tight" belt cocking the rear pulley forward. Doing the rubber floor mat shims may help - but straightening out the rear pulley will only make your "too tight" belt "more too tighter". http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1446828836 And I am not aware of anyone wearing out a front or back pulley....and belts last a very, very long time if you don't abuse them. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 05/09/17 at 07:48:28 I'm with those who pointed out that the cost of a new rear tire is a lot less than chasing phantom problems. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by wakosama on 05/09/17 at 07:51:46 Related: Are there instructions or a video of how to REDUCE the tension of the belt? Alot found on 'checking' tension, not reducing it. Do we just loosen up the axle and carefully advance the two bolts an equal bit? A tape measure from the pivot to verify equal on each side; no canting? Sounds simple. What am I missing? tks. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 05/09/17 at 07:53:30 Yes, it is that simple. I just make sure both adjuster bolts are seated before tightening the axle nut. EDIT: I don't bother with the tape measure but ti won't hurt. Most people will tell you not to use the makings on the swingarm, but I think they are fine to get you int the ballpark. I would start with the lines and see how it goes. You can always make further adjustments if needed. My belt made more noise trying to make it perfectly centered on the rear pulley than if I just lined it up equally on the swingarm . YRMV |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 05/09/17 at 08:01:59 The statement you quoted said the wheel bearings, BUT there are three bearings in the rear,two wheel bearings and a third bearing in the pulley housing that has been known to fail,and would cause the rear pulley to misalign .It's time you bought a new tire of the proper size and check all the things we talked about in the above posts.You can talk all day or you can start wrenchin'. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 05/09/17 at 08:16:41 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1335401723 |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by SALB on 05/09/17 at 09:20:32 Quote:
Sounds just like my oversize tire expanding radially as speed increased. Did I mention I had the same problem??? ::) |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/09/17 at 09:24:24 3A393A2E38303E5B0 wrote:
Wouldn't that be a hoot......if it turned out to be the too big for this bike tire that is the cause of all the trouble! |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 09:29:24 Quote:
There's no marks on the swingarm from the tire. With the bike jacked up and sitting next to it I can hear the noise coming from the front pulley only. I'm going to cut off the belt today and see what it sounds like. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by FL Savage on 05/09/17 at 09:29:32 Are you sure it's the front pulley? A front pulley squeak would change pitch 5 times as you increase speed thru the gears, the rear pulley would have a single increase/decrease pitch as speed changed. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 09:37:07 I'm very certain its the front pulley. If I kneel down between the two pulleys facing the belt I can hear noise from my left. (This is done outside not in a garage or enclosed echoing space) If I lean in next to the pulley I hear squealing, if I move to the back pulley the noise dissipates, then gets louder as I move back towards the front pulley. My friend indicates the same, he never even considered the rear as a source of the noise actually. His girlfriend is just pissed we keep making it scream like crazy in their yard. It doesn't make sense as you have stated which is why I was curious about it to begin with. I'll see what it sounds like with no belt. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by badwolf on 05/09/17 at 09:52:51 I really hope you ment take off the belt, not cut it off. If you destroy the belt you will have stopped the noise, and will have to go with a chain! Cheaper to convert than to buy a new belt. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/09/17 at 10:23:59 This is reminiscent of the CheapNewbie experience. Why ask THE single most knowledgeable group questions about a problem and not listen? He intends to keep the tire,which he understands means that the belt is too tight, and could wreck engine internals, which he has indicated to me via PM is something he's willing to accept. Rather than drop tire sizes and gear up with pulleys, he's gonna fight the squeaking belt. How close is the tire to rubbing the swingarm? Get it as close as possible,, |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 05/09/17 at 10:43:33 Had a set of tires on a lowered car that "whistled" inside the wheel well when I got up to highway speeds. ;) |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 12:36:37 796660677A7D4C7C4C74666A21130 wrote:
I'm not sure in what manner I'm not listening. ive checked belt tension and pulleys as indicated here, checked the tire and swingarm for rubbing and have prepared to replace bearings and driveshaft. Besides the tire there's not much else that I know of to check. If keeping the tire means I only have to replace pulleys/bearings/belts periodically I'd rather have the tire, but I won't know unless I try it out after making changes. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/09/17 at 12:45:06 OK.....so if you are listening. Is your belt centered in the rear pulley, or is it rubbing on the outside edge of the rear pulley? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by oldNslow on 05/09/17 at 13:04:24 Quote:
This is what you aren't listening to. Nobody has to PERIODICALLY replace pulleys, bearings( especially the bearing that supports the front pulley shaft) and belts on these bikes. Almost everyone rides them for many miles and many years and never replaces any of those things. And nobody spends 4 or five thousand dollars rebuilding a Savage motor.The cost of PERIODICALLY replacing those parts far exceeds the value of the motorcycle. I tried to be tactful in my first response. This time I'm going to be blunt. If you need to replace all those parts even once, much less PERIODICALLY on a 1995 Savage, then the bike is junk and you would be far better off just replacing the entire motorcycle. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 05/09/17 at 14:12:31 He's listening ,but He's not hearing or thinking. I would suggest that He should ride in first and second gear only ,in that way He may keep the larger tire and avoid having to work on the bike and any belt noise,problem solved! |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 14:19:57 Again Im fine replacing the parts periodically, I fully understand if anyone else isn't. Cost of parts, type and frequency really isn't important here, I am just making sure I am replacing everything to start off and then go from there. As for belt alignment I thought I had posted that I checked it along with belt tension. I lifted the bike and hand spun the rear tire, I can not see an area where the belt touches either pulley on the sides. The only real test I did was place a business card between the belt and pulley and see if the belt ever "gripped" the card and it did not. I tried this rotating forward and reverse on both sides of both pulleys. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 05/09/17 at 16:26:09 The first part you should change periodically is your hearing aid battery! the second is your tire.then proceed from there,the reason you hear more noise from the front pulley may be because it's smaller.The alignment of the rear may look good but you can't see it under load(with the bike running down the road) the rear pulley may be cocking when you apply more horse power ( like in third gear )you need to take things apart ,as I and others have suggested and really look for the problem!You don't rebuild the motor to fix a belt problem!You fix the belt!If you listen to someone ,other than yourself ,you may yet get this thing under control. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/09/17 at 17:37:22 I tried. I'm done. I tried to PM sense to him. And explained he could regain the gearing the big tire is providing through pulleys, and he asked me how the tire affects gearing. So, that level of mechanical understanding is about to Cut the belt off. It's a CheapNewbie rerun. I'm out. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by oldNslow on 05/09/17 at 17:45:50 New part prices from one online vendor. There are other vendors, but the prices are similar. Rear Pulley 411.98 Front Pulley 100.53 Belt 240.27 Bearing/ driveshaft 48.42 oil seal/ driveshaft 10.37 lockwasher for 1.64 should be replaced when nut is removed/reinstalled driveshaft nut cushions/hub 59.70 9.95 ea x 6 total 872.91 plus shipping Those are the parts you are talking about periodically replacing. Even though you don't yet know if your noise is simply coming from a belt that can't be adjusted properly because your rear tire is too big. From the same vendor: Shinko 712 140/90 15 tire 65.72 plus shipping This tire is a little bigger than the oem tire, but a lot of people use it, or another brand of the same size. It fits. I have one on my bike as a matter of fact. Good luck. p.s. there is a bearing in the rear pulley hub that I forgot. probably another 20-30 bucks. I'm not going to go back and look it up. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/09/17 at 17:49:54 Belt 240.27 The cost of not simply Removing the belt, which is PART OF replacing All those I'll just replace the parts later Parts! Newbie lives. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 05/09/17 at 19:40:57 yeah ,stick a fork in me I'm done! |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/09/17 at 20:02:32 Yeah again the cost of this stuff is irrelevant I was simply asking about what parts and procedures need to take place to address very loud squeal from the front pulley. I've checked belt tension, checked if the sides of the belt touch the pulleys in forward and reverse, I've checked the swingarm for tire rub, and watched to see if said tire touches while running it in 4th gear lifted. Why does it matter what I'm paying? At what point did I ask for cost reduction then chosen a more expensive route? I don't see why any of that matters. At this point I'm curious as to why my front pulley only makes noise after 3rd gear. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 05:27:18 Ok so with the belt removed the front pulley makes very little noise until 3rd gear and then begins to squeak as before. The only difference being that the pitch is a bit higher but it does get louder with speed. I have 2 bearings on order, is there any reason to believe that high pitch scream at 3rd on up is something else? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 05/10/17 at 05:55:38 4F6F6D65786F0A0 wrote:
Unfortunately, none of us know why your bike makes noise. We are just making our best educated guesses and simply suggesting ways to diagnose and/or solutions. We hope you figure it out and post back here for everyone to learn from. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 05/10/17 at 05:59:30 123230382532570 wrote:
Nice idea, removing the belt. Let us know how that works out. Bearings or seals are all I can think of. If you fix the noise, the next step is to figure out the cause and eliminate it if you can. If it was due to belt tension being too tight, you could go with the smaller tire or clearance the swingarm. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 07:01:04 6A6D6C6A686A716A050 wrote:
Nice idea, removing the belt. Let us know how that works out. Bearings or seals are all I can think of. If you fix the noise, the next step is to figure out the cause and eliminate it if you can. If it was due to belt tension being too tight, you could go with the smaller tire or clearance the swingarm. [/quote] Yeah finding out the cause is stage 2. I'm looking for a shop that will run it 7000 miles on a jack stand but I think that's an assembly I'm going to have to put together myself. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/17 at 07:19:37 Wow,, you're willing to do that,, but to listen to a forum full of experienced owners, mechanics and engineers, well, that's not what you want.. So, go do,, I would certainly enjoy knowing what you learn and how many miles you ride, and what it costs to learn that the only way to FIGURE OUT WHY IT SQUEAKS is to follow certain logical steps. Im sure I know which side of the Tall Table you'll sit on. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 07:26:34 697670776A6D5C6C5C64767A31030 wrote:
I don't know why you are offended here. I've used the advice here to check my belt alignment, pulley play, belt tension, swing arm rub/tire expansion and used the additional information to order new parts that I don't have the tools to work on and set up a shop to do the work. Other than changing the tire, which I've stated I am willing to keep and change parts as needed, what haven't I done? Personally I'm rather grateful that you guys have provided the information here as I would have assumed I only had to replace the front pulley bearings, which of course is wrong.l |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 05/10/17 at 07:52:37 6141434B5641240 wrote:
4th and 5th are closest to the pulley. I think the seal can be replaced from the outside, but the bearing can only be gotten from splitting the case. I would consider pulling the seal and getting a look at the bearing. I had a bearing fail on the counterbalancer. Squealed quite loudly occasionally, till it failed. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/17 at 08:25:46 The intermittent nature, the pulse, would not be the typical sounds of a simple misalignment. If you would peel the tire off and test, you'd know more. If parts need replaced inside the cases, blame the belt tension. Taller tire equals higher gear. Pulleys are available to achieve the higher gear. Why is it you're so determined to use That size tire? So determined that you are willing to spend more than the bike is worth in maintenance and CALL it normal wear, ? The same parts must be removed to access the shaft, seal, etc. that holds the belt.. Cutting the belt is not reasonable. Yea, why Am I offended? My bad... Carry on.. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Dave on 05/10/17 at 09:00:53 Before you order parts....like bearings that can't be installed without a complete engine tear down - I would remove the pulley and see if anthing is going on behind it. There is not much room back there, and a stone or some other foreign object could have gotten wedged behind the pulley. The oversize tire may not be the cause of the squeal - but it is far more tire than bike needs for performance, and you are giving up acceleration and handling with that heavy tire on the bike. I have run tires as narrow as a 110/80 on my Savage, and the engine can't make it lose grip. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 09:45:52 "4th and 5th are closest to the pulley." Thanks. This is useful on-topic information. I can't see anything behind the pulley but its coming off and a new one is going on so I will see how that goes. "Why is it you're so determined to use That size tire? So determined that you are willing to spend more than the bike is worth in maintenance and CALL it normal wear, ?" I have 3 of the 150/90 tires. I never called any of this normal wear. Ideally I'd like to see if I can toss one on the front somehow, just to do it. I have 2 new belts coming in, chopping up an old one doesn't affect me, I could care less about an old belt and I don't know why anyone else would. I respect the information provided here so thanks for helping me understand more about the bike. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 05/10/17 at 10:15:49 6141434B5641240 wrote:
You'd best check to see if that will fit between the forks before you work out fitting a rim to it. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 10:21:11 Yeah it doesn't look feasible at all unless I have some custom fork fabbed up. I notice there's pretty minimal non-stock fork options for this particular bike. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/17 at 11:47:10 So, because you have three tires that don't fit, you're willing to jump through hoops to use them, even if it means spending more than getting three appropriate sized tires. You're willing to risk wrecking the output shaft bearings, to use tires you have. You're not wanting to Ride? That's rhetorical,,don't worry about it. AND, you ordered Hundreds of dollars worth of stuff without any clue about the squeak. That's just not how experienced problem solvers operate. It's your money, your bike. Good luck, and do report your progress and findings. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 15:00:51 Im still not sure why any of you have personal issues with how I spend my money on my bike. If its not a issue to you then stop bringing up how much X-tire or X-items are. I bought them, I know what they cost and if I don't need them later I will give them to people. So with the front pulley removed I have the same symptoms: very loud squeal after 3rd gear. I don't have the tools to see if or how out of tolerance the shaft is but a mechanic nearby said he can check it out. I can say that it does not move at all if I try to wiggle it in any direction by hand. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Tocsik on 05/10/17 at 15:09:37 Wait a minute. How are you getting a squeal after third gear with the front pulley removed? Just trying to understand. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/10/17 at 15:15:38 172C20302A28430 wrote:
Its from inside from what I can tell. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 05/10/17 at 15:27:01 There are a number of possibilities. I would think if the bearing was bad, it'd squeal all the time. My guess would be somethings outta place due to wear. Maybe a washer has worn out, or split and fallen out. Might be worth taking the clutch cover off and fishing around with a magnet. But without splitting the case, you're SOL. As an option, buy the bottom end and swap the rest on it. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/17 at 16:55:13 1030323A2730550 wrote:
Rotate the shaft, feel for a rough spot. Eyeball the shaft while it's spinning. If the edges stay crisp it's straight. I'm hoping it's not on the sidestand running . |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/24/17 at 09:27:17 Alright so after a rebuild there's pretty much no noise until 4th gear then is has intermittent squeal but much less. One thing that I forgot to ask about was if a magnet was fished around in the clutch case. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/24/17 at 09:49:44 What does a Professional rebuild like that cost? Did they do anything in the cylinder? What parts were replaced? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/24/17 at 09:57:28 I have no idea what parts were replaced. I asked for anything related to belt squeal and bearing noise to be replaced. I haven't gotten a bill for this portion yet, I got two used pulleys in (front/back) that I want tossed on to do the tight belt run, then replace parts and toss on the new pulleys/belt after. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/24/17 at 10:01:07 Thanks for the update |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by oldNslow on 05/24/17 at 10:07:11 Quote:
Have your mechanic check the baloney gasket. Pretty sure that's it. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 05/24/17 at 10:14:18 0D33323E2C30315F0 wrote:
I asked about that gasket but they didn't know anything about it. Turns out it was a different part number listed under "Bologna" gasket. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 05/24/17 at 11:49:48 5866676B7965640A0 wrote:
I haven't seen one of those in years. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 06/20/17 at 14:24:41 Well there's been about 1400 miles put on the tire since the front/rear bearings, belt (used) front pulley (used), rear pulley and associated parts were replaced. There's no front pulley noise unless the belt is tightened way too tight and then its just rear pulley from what I can tell. I don't know where the "online vendor" was found for an estimate of parts needed but my cost was just under $1400 for parts, and since I expected to need to have the engine/crankcase worked on by now I didn't use all new parts. Mechanic costs are right at $3200 with labor and tip. At this point I have no idea how long it will take to replicate the squeal I had before bad off of belt tension alone. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/17 at 15:13:56 Why try? Get miles on it, have fun.. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by ohiomoto on 06/21/17 at 05:35:11 0121232B3621440 wrote:
Are you really telling us you spent $4600 on this? I paid $1250 for my 96 with 3k miles on it and got a spare parts bike with it. Next time you hear a noise, you might want to consider going straight the dealer and trade it in on a new one. It will be a lot less money and headaches. At this point I'm fairly certain you are spending more on R&D for this model than Suzuki themselves. I know it's your money and I don't care what you do with it (and neither do you apparently :) ), I'm just saying... |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by norm92de on 06/21/17 at 15:43:21 I agree with Ohiomoto. A new or almost new bike would be a much better bet with no headaches. I've seen plenty of almost new bikes around El Paso for not much over $3000. Including one with 14 miles on it for $3000!! |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by batman on 06/21/17 at 16:02:28 Why buy a new bike ,when you're paying someone else to drive it?( It might be the first logical thing he's done). |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/21/17 at 19:49:01 He explained why he bought it, twice. Who cares ? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by verslagen1 on 06/21/17 at 20:03:54 524D4B4C51566757675F4D410A380 wrote:
Batman is stumped by this riddler ;D |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 06/22/17 at 10:24:45 I don't know why there's any personal investment in what people do with their bikes either. If I want to have a project bike where I do random tests on it then I guess that means some people won't sleep at night. On the 4runner forums I've never had anyone complain about the cost of doing tests on my 4runner that I've never asked anyone else to pay a dime on. I had a wind tunnel built to test vibration on the antennae, it made a ton of noise in the cabin and we eventually figured out that its cross-wind from the passenger side 30 degrees from center rear (20 center front) at 14+ MPH combined with a forward speed of 60-68 MPH that causes it. We had to build a second power/blower mechanism to simulate cross-wind just to figure that out. The solution was an angled antennae for maybe $15 but sometimes a project is just fun to do. Not one person felt the need to complain about it or try to convince me how much not to spend. No idea why its an issue here. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/22/17 at 13:53:52 You're a curious guy. Keep on studying stuff. It took me a while to realize I wasn't Giving Freely. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 07/18/17 at 07:18:55 So this bike has gone 3000 miles with the 150/90 tire and we still aren't getting any noticeable wear on the belt or bearings. The tire is showing wear which is expected of course. Its on the same route every day, mostly straight roads at consistent speed. Would changing the route to have more stop/start change anything regarding wear to the belt/bearings? |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by stewmills on 07/18/17 at 07:40:47 I don't know, but logic would tell me "yes". The starting and stopping puts loads on the pulley and bearings in forward and reverse directions each time the directional load changes (e.g. starting and revving up versus stopping or slowing down). These ever changing loads should be less at consistent cruising speeds. Just my opinion. |
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Title: Re: Front pulley noise while applying throttle Post by Eegore on 10/31/17 at 07:48:55 Well with the weather being how it is I am pulling all the bikes Nov 1 and getting them in the shops. This bike never started to squeal again even with just over 6000 additional miles run on the 150/90 tire. I will try to find a shop that knows about this particular bike enough to look over the drive system and see what, if any damage was done. I was hoping to replicate the original issue as I was repeatedly assured it was from the tire but it didn't work out this time. We will see what happens next spring. |
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