|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil change gone wrong /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1489590778 Message started by Hoodlum333 on 03/15/17 at 08:12:55 |
|
Title: Oil change gone wrong Post by Hoodlum333 on 03/15/17 at 08:12:55 So, the picture says it all. Bought the bike used. Went to change the oil and the drain plug is almost a circle. Box wrench obviously won't work. Tried sockets but it is too shallow. Tried impact, rounded more. Don't want to go to the dealer and I don't want to do anything like lean the bike to drain the oil. I want this plug out. What haven't I tried that can work? :-? Rick |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Hoodlum333 on 03/15/17 at 08:25:36 .....And of course I finally tried vice grips, which is probably how the previous owner created this round bolt in the first place. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by springman on 03/15/17 at 08:39:30 Hello Hoodlum333. First apply liquid wrench or any other penetrating oil. Then purchase or borrow a socket set specifically for stripped bolt heads and it should come off. You can buy these sockets at harbor freight or probably any hardware store. Good luck. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by verslagen1 on 03/15/17 at 08:52:57 You can drain the oil out of the timing port and tipping it. But I hear ya... last ditch effort. Once the head is completely rounded off, including the shoulders that seat against the case, it should come out. The threads on the plug are a tight fit and will seal by themselves... could be tight only if they were cross threaded... not likely. So, get yourself a good pair of vice grips (not from HF) and keep trying. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/15/17 at 08:58:30 The first question is "why is it so buggered up?" My guess is that it's over-torqued or possibly frozen and the previous owner just didn't have the correct tools and made a bad situation worse. It looks like you've got once chance left on this. I'd use penetrating oil for sure. But I'd lay the bike on its side so gravity will help the oil get into the threads. Keeping the bike on its side, a just prior to using a stripped bolt socket and an impact driver, I'd heat the case. If this thing is frozen you run the risk of cracking the case. A bolt extractor may work...but I think you might end up with the head of the extractor stuck in the rounded drain bolt. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Hoodlum333 on 03/15/17 at 09:03:50 636062797E777D717E100 wrote:
Springman, would love to do that, but there is no clearance for a socket and wrench - unless the socket was about 3/4" deep or less. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by stewmills on 03/15/17 at 09:17:37 Try one of these: |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by stewmills on 03/15/17 at 09:17:49 or these: |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by stewmills on 03/15/17 at 09:18:12 Or try the coin/washer trick: |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/15/17 at 10:10:25 Hammer & Chisel, once you get it to move then try vise grips. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/15/17 at 10:18:07 Make sure you get filter in correctly too !!! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Dave on 03/15/17 at 10:48:47 First......go get a new drain plug bolt.....you are going to need it. You might try riding the bike so the engine is warm before you try to remove it....the aluminum expands more than the steel, and it mght be a bit looser. If I was in that position and a "quality" set of vice grips didn't get the job done....I would weld a nut on the end of the bolt. Lay the bike on the side, and arc or mig weld on a large nut. Have a wrench handy and loosen up the drain bolt before it cools off. If you don't have a welder, take your new drain bolt, a large nut and matching wrench (best if the nut does not have shiny plating on it), to a local weld shop, or mechanic who has a welder, and get them to help you. No hacks or inexperienced guys......somebody who has been around a while. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Serowbot on 03/15/17 at 11:09:24 Looks like you might have room to drill into the side of the remaining bolt... then tap a nail into the hole and turn it loose... :-/ |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/15/17 at 11:14:16 No hacks or inexperienced guys......somebody who has been around a while. As you're well aware, there just isn't much room for a grinder, or wrench. Be sure that your New Nut is not gonna be so big a wrench that fits won't be too big to fit in the area between your nut and the engine case and still spin. You can hog the inside of the nut out to fit your goobered up oil plug. A rotary file and die grinder and a vise.. You can also shape the oil plug, flatten opposite sides and get the vise grip a better grip. No hacks or inexperienced guys......somebody who has been around a while. There really is no room for error. Don't be a Cheap Newbie. You won't get that, it's an inside joke.. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/15/17 at 11:29:59 As usual, Dave's advice is the best. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by gizzo on 03/15/17 at 13:18:28 +1. what dave said. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by springman on 03/15/17 at 13:42:24 +2 on Dave |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Hoodlum333 on 03/15/17 at 15:28:02 566D6077666A71776C646976050 wrote:
OK - a couple comments. Regarding stewmills posts, I tried one and three already. I like the idea of what I see in his second picture - but I don't know what that is. I feel like I could make something like that work with enough leverage and tapping with a hammer. Maybe drilling into the bolt and using a set screw with whatever this tool is. Looks like a could maybe make something like this. My neighbor is a welder (unsure of his experience as it is not his primary profession.) He is concerned about welding around the aluminum. This will be my last resort. God this is a stupid thing to have to deal with. What do you guys think about these: http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc-damaged-bolt-nut-remover-set-low/p-00952166000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&gclid=CjwKEAjwzKPGBRCS55Oe46q9hCkSJAAMvVuMdO-lXN4wm421ux7l3M1aP8789wLmt7I2dItBWe2BwRoCv37w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds All the auto parts stores have bolt removing sockets with teeth, but then it is a clearance issue. Anyone think these would work at an angle - with my 6" extension? ugh...gonna explore something like that second photo that stewmills posted. Just gotta find out what the hell that is. Yeah I'm a newb to the savage, but not a newb all together. And not cheap - just thrifty (and broke). |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/15/17 at 16:01:49 If you can get a nut on the drain plug And get a drill in on it from the end and drill between the nut and drain plug, the drill bit needs to be small enough to let you shove a small bolt in. Clean that mess up good, carefully lube the case, lay saran wrap on, JB Weld the nut with the two bolts on. And load the nut in the same direction you will be turning it, let it cure. Hang a good drop light near it for heat. No LEDs,, |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/15/17 at 16:01:54 That's what I was thinking about. Still, Dave's method is a sure thing, and probably a lot less money too. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/15/17 at 16:21:54 The cost of a long 1/8" bit, two pieces of 1/8" metal, and JBweld? Gotta buy and fit the nut regardless. Lay it over,hafta drain gas first. Welding is not without risk. Probably Otta pull the battery. I'm still thinking about putting flats on the drain plug and putting vise grips on it. Done right, you could get a Crescent on it. Of course, not everyone has tools for that. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Hoodlum333 on 03/15/17 at 18:32:54 yeah, I already put flats on it and torqued the hell out of it with my vise grips. I don't know what this bolt is made of, but it rounds VERY easily - like butter. Maybe there is a model of Irwin locking pliers that is better suited, I have tried my curved jaw and long nose - those are the two types I own. Maybe I am incorrect in thinking that Irwin is premium and there is a better, harder, stronger set of vise grips out there. I even put edges on a 16mm craftsman socket (17mm bolt), tapped it on the bolt securely, and clamped the vise grips on. The teeth tore through the socket and the bolt didn't budge. WTF over? |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kris01 on 03/15/17 at 19:05:58 I sometimes cut slots in stripped hex head bolts and use a large flat head screwdriver to loosen them. Might work here. You'll only have room to use just the blade without the hacksaw. ;) |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by verslagen1 on 03/15/17 at 19:10:10 Are you sure you're going the right way? put the wrench on the front side and push backward. :-? |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kris01 on 03/15/17 at 19:14:26 A lot of people have a hard time finding the oil drain plug. Are you sure it's the right one? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1099572561 |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by oldNslow on 03/15/17 at 19:26:24 Quote:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding something, but the above has me confused. If you managed to get a socket onto the head of the bolt securely enough so that your vise grips slipped on the socket not the bolt, why didn't you try to turn the socket with a ratchet or a breaker bar? Try warming up the engine case some with a propane torch, Keep the flame on the aluminum and keep it moving.Just warm it, don't get it too hot. Get a handle on the socket and give it a couple of sharp (not hard) raps with a hammer and see if the bolt breaks loose. Of course if the socket won't grab then it's time for more drastic measures. EDIT: I just went out and looked at my bike. The drain plug on mine has a 14mm head, and there is just enough room between the bolt and the frame to get a 1/4 inch drive socket and ratchet or breaker bar in there. A 17mm might not fit unless you have a really short socket. I don't have a 1/4" 17mm to try, and a 3/8' drive socket and handle won't fit. So my suggestion might not help. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by raydawg on 03/15/17 at 19:42:49 In the plumbing department they have a tool called a basin wrench. It sits atop of a solid metal tube that allows you to get up into tight spaces to put on, take off, faucets, for the most part. By flipping the jaws over, it goes from tightening or loosening. You might try that, but instead of reaching up, as if you were on your back, trying to put a faucet on from under the sink, which would put the jaws at a 90 degree angle, you leave it the jaws straight up,and attach it from the side, to the nut... It has gripping jaws like a pipe wrench that get tighter as you exert more pressure on it.... But as tool go, the cheap knock offs are useless as the metal is of poor quality. I have used this tool with a cheater to get off faucets that had been on for decades.... Here is a link to the tool. This is a sears one, not sure of the quality, but just to give you an idea of what I am talking about http://m.sears.com/empire-9-1-2-to-17-in-basin-wrench/p-00951665000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&gclid=COO_l9SA2tICFVCBfgodTcsOyw&gclsrc=aw.ds |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by zipidachimp on 03/15/17 at 20:54:45 hole across the head for a long hardened roll pin, wrench. done wrong this could rip the head off the bolt. or: drill up through the bolt and use an easy-out. ::) |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/15/17 at 21:20:45 https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/wrenches |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/16/17 at 05:28:06 So we are at that strange point of advice giving. Several good methods have been given, and one method got several responses that it was the way to go (welding a nut). The OP even said that his neighbor has welding skills. And here we are with the OP retrying failed methods. The correct solution will take 15-20 minutes (that includes riding the bike over there) and will cost you a beer and some funny stories. You risk tearing what is left of the head off of that bolt with the other half measures. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by mpescatori on 03/16/17 at 11:04:22 or these: http://www.gnuttibortolo.com/media/products/standard/54676_a.jpg Ditto that ! These things also seem to work miracles ! http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/NokAAOSwstxVeVAb/s-l225.jpg Or, you may want to go the "Old World Way" http://www.antoniodeta.it/Images_on_line/estrattori-x-viti-e-prigionieri-m3-m6-1.jpg One suggestion, if everything you've tried won't work. The oil drain plug on my bike is 14mm. Never mind how much that is in inches, it's 14mm, period. Get a file and file away a little where you can reach in order to have one flattened side, and file away on the opposite side, so you end up with a... flattened round head. If you file away enough, you can slip a 12mm or a 1/2" wrench and give it a twist. Last - see if you can find a Torz nut with the same pitch as the 14mm nut. Nuts and bolts will get rounded out, Torx? Never ! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/16/17 at 13:31:15 I can't wait to hear what approach gets tried. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Papa Bear on 03/16/17 at 14:05:46 And which one ends up working .... 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/16/17 at 14:15:31 A few ideas don't leave much room for a Do Over. Might wanna start with an idea that Can be Amped Up. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/16/17 at 15:19:39 Ruttly the caveman advises Hammer & Chisel , would have been done long ago for cheap ! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by jcstokes on 03/16/17 at 18:15:36 What about the candle and cigarette lighter idea that was going around the web? Heat the plug with a cigarette lighter, have a wax candle handy and get the plug warm enough to allow the candle to melt and theoretically wick down the threads. Then apply your Vicegrips, cold chisel, or what ever else you have to loosen the plug. I've seen this on the web, so it HAS to be true. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/16/17 at 18:55:42 It may be true , but it might be difficult to get the candle to drip UP to the drain plug ! ;D |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by raydawg on 03/16/17 at 19:03:55 Uh, not that I doubt the persons aptitude, but just in case, I mean, you are sorta doing things in reverse, as you are wrenching upward, so... Just a reminder, righty tighty, lefty loosely ;D |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Dave on 03/17/17 at 03:33:45 4F4656514A4E4056250 wrote:
I have a tough time believing this is a corrosion issue. The bolt has a sealing washer under the head......and there is a couple of quarts of oil on the inside of the engine that most likely has the threads well lubricated. Likely this is just one of those times when the previous fellow cranked the drain plug waaaaaay too tight. When I bought my used Savage and changed oil the first time - I had to put both hands on the wrench and wedge my foot against the tire to get enough pull to loosen it. The drain plug only needs to be snugged down to prevent a leak - it does not hold the engine together! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/17/17 at 08:15:35 I went and looked.. no way way to drill from the end. An Impact socket isn't as hard as chrome. With proper orientation and clearancing to fit , a roll pin with a piece of piano wire filling it would probably get it. Talking about fitting a predrilled on one side, socket, drill through, roll pin then drive piano wire in the roll pin. Lots of details to get it right. Or, get a nut and get it welded Or, try a funny looking pipe wrench. I can't see winning it without laying it down. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by gizzo on 03/17/17 at 17:00:29 There's so many ways to skin this cat. The welded nut is almost certainly the easiest, quickest most reliable way. Just get someone who knows how to mig or tig (properly, you know?) and have at it. 5 minutes work. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ed L. on 03/17/17 at 19:36:30 Get a dremel with a thin cutoff tip on it and slot the head turning it into a screw. Catching the edge of the bolt with a cold chisel and hammer might work if there is enough room. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by buster6315 on 03/17/17 at 22:27:55 Ruttlys' advice is best! Technique! KISS! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/17 at 00:39:25 Maybe a larger diameter would be approachable with a chisel. It's in cast aluminum and will need WAILED upon to create a rotational force greater than the torque required to goober the plug with a wrench. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/18/17 at 10:21:28 Silly Texan you know how sometimes your bending the ratchet handle trying to loosen a bolt and it don't move , so you drag out your air compressor & hose & impact gun & socket and then pull the trigger and it wasn't even tight it came spinning right off. Granted it's primitive way of doing it and you must have your technique down, I rarely use my chisel as a chisel , its used to show my fellow mechanics how easy it is to remove damaged drain plugs then when it fails I drag out the welder and weld a nut on it ! I think if it was warmed up he might get it with a external extractor too ! But hammer/chisel first cause it quick easy & effective! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/17 at 10:59:19 It bothers me that it's in cast aluminum. I'm not against the approach, I do it, too. I'm also aware of the times I've had a four pound hammer beating on a rod, driving something out.. and it's not moving. I get the air chisel with the straight rod, push, pull the trigger, and Blammo,, it's out. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/18/17 at 12:22:15 I have 3 different size air hammers here at work , they get used all the time too ! It's all different techniques for different problems. Equipment here varies from 15,000 lbs to 170,000 lbs so it can be a task at times repairing this stuff ! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by kiwi rider 89 on 03/18/17 at 15:05:40 I had the exact same problem last night, I put the bike on its side with padding and used this... |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/17 at 16:11:04 Well, looks like that cast will handle it. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/18/17 at 19:15:24 Been a wrench for over 25 years and I Never use a 12 point socket unless it's a 12 point bolt , I always use 6 point socket !!! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Ruttly on 03/18/17 at 19:33:26 You don't have to beat it to death , it's a technique! |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/18/17 at 19:35:05 694E4F4F57423B0 wrote:
Amen brother |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kenny G on 03/18/17 at 19:47:28 I bought a set of Craftsman 6 point box end combination wrenches. 12 point wrenches are the destroyer of good bolts & nuts. I even put a paper towel over the bolt head and push the 6 point wrench down over it to make sure I have a tight fitting wrench to remove a tight bolt. I am a firm believer in using a soldering iron on the head of really tight bolts or machine screws before wrenching. Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by kiwi rider 89 on 03/18/17 at 21:50:54 In new Zealand non of the car/macanacil stores stock the 6 sided wrenches as standard lines even the specialty stores have to order them in |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kris01 on 03/19/17 at 08:18:41 5D7378556477657E160 wrote:
Kenny, is that backwards? Don't you want to heat whatever the bolt is screwed into and keep the bolt cool? That way the female threads expand with heat and don't grip the bolt as tight. I may be wrong. It's happened before. ;D |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by twhitus on 03/19/17 at 08:35:33 worst case you could always use a hand vacuum pump and pull the oil out of the case through the filler hole till you get the bottom bolt sorted. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/19/17 at 08:40:02 You can use heat on the bolt, let it stay in the heat long enough to transfer heat to the case, then hold ice on the bolt. Stolen from a site rt of it is the difference in expansion rates between different metals. Metals expand at different rates depending on the density of the metals. Most cases are made of aluminum or magnesium, and most bolts are made of steel. Aluminum and magnesium expand at a great rate than steel. When you apply heat to the bolt, the heat is transferred to the the surrounding material. Therefore, the case material expands at a greater rate than the bolt, making the clearances between the bolt and case greater and releasing the friction that hold the parts together. Cooling the parts before you disassemble them allows the clearances to close up to the standard clearances. It may release the bond of a thread locker like loctitie, but removing the bolts while the materials are still hot will work better in most cases. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kenny G on 03/19/17 at 09:46:19 Kris, I want to heat the bolt to expand it as much as possible, and then let it cool before I put the wrench on it. It helps, sometimes. Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kenny G on 03/19/17 at 11:49:16 Justin, I hope there is never a next time, but if there is :-/I will try wrenching while the bolt is still hot. Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Kris01 on 03/19/17 at 19:54:51 Kenny, I guess it "wiggles" it loose a little at a time. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by batman on 03/20/17 at 11:48:28 If all else fails drill a hole through the center of the plug ,using a proper size drill bit ,tape the hole using a pipe tap,as they make a tapered thread(and should be easier to start in a slightly undersize hole) using a 1/4 or 3/8 tap .then all you need is a pipe plug and a roll of Teflon tape.Apply tape to the plug as a sealant and to be sure your plug will never seize again. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Dave on 03/20/17 at 12:19:04 2E2D38212D2278744C0 wrote:
I don't think you can drill the drain plug with the engine in the frame......the frame is in the way. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/20/17 at 13:19:23 The OP, Hoodlum333, has been MIA since post #21, March 15th. Given the array of options offered by the members he may have simply used gasoline and a match. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/17 at 13:34:20 What a gruesome suicide That would be. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by verslagen1 on 03/20/17 at 15:26:18 Maybe he went with the shotgun repair technique. :o |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/17 at 15:31:01 That was a funny story. Old man was so frustrated, he shot it.. and didn't know it would bounce back. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by Dave on 03/21/17 at 02:24:15 If we don't stop soon......this will have morphed into a 7 page Cheapnoob thread! :-? Riding season will soon be here in the US......and hopefully will be out riding instead of looking for something "fun" to discuss. |
|
Title: Re: Oil change gone wrong Post by buster6315 on 03/21/17 at 06:18:23 With the temp reaching nearly 50 yesterday I ventured out to buy a newspaper. Of course for the rest of the week we'll not be above 40. It was nice to get a taste, however! Savage ran fine. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |