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Message started by Serowbot on 03/09/17 at 07:58:01

Title: Genuine 400
Post by Serowbot on 03/09/17 at 07:58:01

Pretty sharp bike.... 8-)
http://www.scooterfile.com/oems/genuine-scooter-company/exclusive-first-ride-genuine-g400c-motorcycle/
http://https://i2.wp.com/www.scooterfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/2016-Genuine-Motorcycles-G400C-58.jpg?resize=700%2C394

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by springman on 03/09/17 at 08:58:09

Wow! I could see myself on one of these!

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Ruttly on 03/09/17 at 10:15:20

What make and model is that?
Engine has a Honda look !

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by sjaskow - FSO on 03/09/17 at 10:24:34

735455554D58210 wrote:

What make and model is that?
Engine has a Honda look !

It's from the same company that makes the Genuine Buddy line of scooters. I remember most of the previews saying it'd be coming in 2016 but I haven't see any real word on them since 2015 or so.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by engineer on 03/09/17 at 10:36:12

Looks good but those Chinese bike builders never develop a dealer or parts distribution network. But in the fifties and sixties it was the same way with some obscure central/eastern European and Italian bike brands. They were also small and inexpensive and kids rode them to destruction and simply trashed them when they needed serious repairs.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/09/17 at 10:54:02

butter smooth. Clutch-less upshifts were smooth, but there was something extra

On the way down through those five gears, the G400C was equally well-behaved. Thoughtful blips of the throttle were rewarded with nearly imperceptible down-shifts, but even without matching revs, the bike’s transmission was very smooth and forgiving while shifting down. Again, making this a

Apparently clutchless shifting isn't the
Breathless Ohh No that some people seem to believe. Clutchless downshifts on the Savage require a bit more finesse than upshifts to get smooth. Upshifts are easier to get smooth when engaged in Spirited riding. Virtually imperceptible pause in acceleration. If I'm in traffic or just riding like an old man, the clutch is involved.

So, it weighs about what a vespa weighs.
No idea what it weighs. Claimed 29 HP at the wheel. If true and it's substantially lighter, it should give us a run for the money.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by HAPPYDAN on 03/09/17 at 11:10:47

So according to the article/review, this is basically a Honda CB400SS updated knock-off, which I saw many of in Nairobi, Kenya. The Chinese company producing this bike also made the Honda for the international market. It looks like Genuine is trying to fill a neglected market in the US - 125cc to 500cc lightweight commuter bikes. I believe the big boys pulled out for lack of profitability. Big bikes sell for more, but have about the same production cost as smaller bikes (10-20% difference in materials cost while labor is about the same), but based on consumer perception and percentage mark-up bring in more $$$. In poorer countries, volume sales of smaller bikes make up the difference. Regardless, this bike looks good and is worth considering. Oh, yeah - I was an Accountant before I retired.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Dave on 03/09/17 at 12:05:47

The article was written November 2015, and the bike was a pre-production bike.

I checked their website....doesn't look like they yet offer it for sale.

http://www.genuinescooters.com/

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Ruttly on 03/09/17 at 12:07:42

Bean Counter ;D

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by jcstokes on 03/09/17 at 13:10:49

Someone on this forum recently pointed out that the Yamaha 400 hadn't been a sales success in the US market, I've no idea of it's sales in NZ, perhaps the Genuine people have done their research and concluded that the market niche maybe too small.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by HAPPYDAN on 03/09/17 at 17:41:34

Regarding the Yam SR400, a local shop still has a new 2015 for sale. Even after discounts, no takers.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/09/17 at 18:23:25

I've always been a fan of the SR500, the SR400 not so much. A friend of mine has a SR500 in a cafe style and it is stunning. The SR400 just appears bulbuls and cheap to me. It could easily be fixed, but I'd rather have a used 500 then a new 400.

Regarding the Genuine 400, it's a shame it wasn't imported. It's a good looking bike and Genuine promised some additional parts. It could have been a great bike for new riders and one that with the right factory support I'm sure would develop a cult following.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by IslandRoad on 03/09/17 at 20:20:26

The 'Genuine' looks ALOT like the 'Nemesis', being released here in Australia this year:

www.solinvictus.com.au/pages/the-nemesis

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by mpescatori on 03/10/17 at 01:01:04

67656E656C656973000 wrote:

Looks good but those Chinese bike builders never develop a dealer or parts distribution network. But in the fifties and sixties it was the same way with some obscure central/eastern European and Italian bike brands. They were also small and inexpensive and kids rode them to destruction and simply trashed them when they needed serious repairs.

I object to that.

With the demise of Indian, the only motorcycle manufacturer left in the US was Harley Davidson.

In 1960 HD bought Aermacchi for pennies, and started importing a... castrated version of their 250cc and 350cc motorcycles.
I never really understood why the US needed buckhorn bars, a 4sp gearbox and less power than the European market, but that's the way it was.
The Aermacchi 350SS 4-stroke single could outrun, outbrake, outmanoeuver the contemporary 900cc Ironhead Sportster any time of the day - at least here in Europe.

http://https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/20/f2/5420f27fc3b58f4745d8687a2ebdb0da.jpghttp://www.motorstown.com/images/aermacchi-350-ss-02.jpg

Other Italian motorcycles were sold in the US, namely the famous :-? :-? :-? Sears-Allstate :-? :-? :-? ...
Known to the rest of the world as Piaggio Vespa, Gilera or Puch (austrian)

The truth of the matter is that, short of Triumph/Norton and BMW, European manufacturers found it much too expensive to ship budget-minded lower-end motorcycles overseas.
So you were flooded by the Japanese bikes, because YOU were the only Country they could really export to.
Communist China ? Viva Mao's bicycle!
India ? Too busy dodging holy cows...
Australia and New Zealand? Nice guys but a very small market.
U S A ? They won the war, were never bombed, ended the war richer than when they started...

YOU were the export market of choice !

The rest is history...

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/10/17 at 06:09:30

And That, my friends, is what is often referred to as a different
Perspective.
Considering that it comes from a seasoned and well traveled foreigner, I'm gonna call it a more accurate lens to see things through.
I'd probably toss in some Tall Table Talk to flesh it out.

In the FWIW department, I was fishing and met a guy who decided he was gonna get a
Meaudursighkull. So, he went Right on down to the Harley Davidson gettinplace, and got himself a TwelveHunnert CC engine powered, half of a car , for his Starter Meaudursighkull.
Never even rode one before. The tales of terror and discomfort were entertaining. The pants flapping in the wind, and trying to hold on at sixty, too afraid to get it up to seventy.
Wow, at least he was smart enough to sell it.
I wonder if the salesman knew he had never ridden a bike.. I'm sure he did, your riding history just might be part of the convo..

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/10/17 at 06:12:09

European manufacturers found it much too expensive to ship budget-minded lower-end motorcycles overseas.
So you were flooded by the Japanese bikes, because YOU were the only Country they could really export to.

You could expand on why Japan could profitably export to us while others couldn't.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/10/17 at 07:51:26

What are we objecting to? The fact that in the 1950's American's considered motorcycles from central/eastern European and Italian bike brands obscure?

They were to us. Bikes from the UK were popular, as were HD's.

So the good ones weren't exported (or imported) central/eastern European and Italian bike brands. The fact remains that these companies were not household names in the US.

Thank goodness Honda started sending the US quality small motorcycles, because in the 1960's if you wanted a quality small bike in the United States you had to get them from...there weren't any.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by MMRanch on 03/10/17 at 10:27:52

I like everything except the chain drive ... (messy and always needing adjusting )

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Ruttly on 03/10/17 at 12:04:57

Face it guys the only way to get a bike like that is to built it yourself. Like Ohiomoto is doing "That 70s Show" in RSD! And it will be a 650 that you can get any needed parts quickly ! I'm sure we can buy that tank and seat thru some Asian eBay seller !

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by DieselBob on 03/10/17 at 15:04:19

To mpescatori's point regarding the history of the US in WWII "were never bombed" I would note that while a technicality, and certainly not to the the extent it occurred in many other countries, the US homeland was in fact "bombed" by Japan.

http://www.historynet.com/japanese-bomb-the-continental-u-s-west-coast.htm

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by HAPPYDAN on 03/10/17 at 16:50:13

Don't forget Ducati. Single cylinder 250, 350, and 450. Just like Coca-Cola, a great product. Just a matter of choosing the right size. Plenty of those in the '60s. Just not enough to satisfy the Baby Boomers coming of age, so the door was wide open for the Japanese.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by ohiomoto on 03/11/17 at 08:23:47

5C7B7A7A62770E0 wrote:

------------------

I agree except it takes a bit of work. I think I would try and find a bike with mid controls and go from there. The problem is there aren't a lot of choices out there. A GR650 would be good but they are hard to find, have starter problems and it's hard to get parts. I also like the GN400, but they are hard to find as well. Or pony up for an SR400 or SR400. Maybe an XS650 would be the way to go.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Ruttly on 03/11/17 at 09:46:50

Ohiomoto , Is what started my whole odyssey of building the tracker , besides the fact I love thumpers , I own six , besides getting lucky and finding a Savage with 809 miles on it for 1500 just 4 miles from here, was the Happy button, that button sparks a huge smile every time I push it ! The button to Freedom , to hours of endless Fun and I love trackers. Great job , it's so low , do you drag anything in the corners ? The lines , bars to tank to seat to tail light/rear fender are perfect ! I would keep the lower bars and add that front fender , very cool !

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by mpescatori on 03/13/17 at 06:15:59

7A434F5E4F445A45462A0 wrote:

I'm not going to allow myself to be tricked into a spitting contest here, may I simply point out that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Ellwood
was a joke compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden or even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Vatican
(Yes, you guys actually bombed the Pope !!!)

Not to mention the destruction of the Benedectine Abbey of Montecassino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino or the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_San_Pietro_Infine
which US sources class as a "battle" but which eyewitness testimony class as "target practice on fleeing civilians".

This thread started out to comment a classic-looking, 1970's style chinese import, a comment was made about obscure marketing strategies by (some) European manufacturers and I simply pointed out a few facts.

Nobody seems to understand the first obslacle is LOGISTICS - you need to ship bikes overseas and "what cost ?"
and the second issue to consider is CUSTOMS LEVVIES.

So let's just stick to basics, shall we...

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/13/17 at 06:59:26

Back then we didn't have smart bombs and cruise missiles. Stuff happens. And, people get sued.. a corporation can sue a sovereign nation?

GM sued the United States for bombing one of their German factories during World War II, and in 1967 they collected from the U.S. government $33 million in damages, out of our tax dollars. Ford also made vehicles for Germany, and to a lesser extent so did Chrysler. IBM developed a punch card system for cataloguing the Jews in Germany. Standard Oil attempted to keep the U.S. from obtaining synthetic rubber because of an agreement it had with a German chemical company. In short, American companies, if there really are such a thing, made a lot of money arming Hitler, for ten years before World War II and even during World War II (Trading with the Enemy, Charles Higham, Delacorte Press, 1983).

Stuff to contemplate. Anyone who wants to discuss it, I'll be in the basement, at the Tall Table.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/13/17 at 07:35:25

64796C7A6A687D667B60090 wrote:

Nobody seems to understand the first obslacle is LOGISTICS - you need to ship bikes overseas and "what cost ?"
and the second issue to consider is CUSTOMS LEVVIES.

Well that's a rather broad statement. Nobody? Really? My company manufactures parts for aircraft that are used all around the world. I believe that I fully understand logistics, customs and more importantly, international marketing.

I'm tempted to tell you to go seek carnal knowledge of yourself, but this isn't the correct forum for such vulgarities.

Instead I will suggest that we keep this thread on topic and continue the discussion of the GC400. There are better places on this forum to discuss politics of the 1940's.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by HAPPYDAN on 03/13/17 at 09:59:15

Wouldn't it be neat if you could just order the bike you want from the factory? When you buy a new bike, you pay shipping anyway, like around $400. So just order one of those nice "sold in Japan/England/Italy only" models US dealers don't carry. My sister flew to Sweden and picked out her new Volvo. I ordered a custom guitar from Taylor. Rumor has it that a few grey market Honda CB400SS bikes made it to California in 2000-2002. Could it work? Seems like it.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Kenny G on 03/13/17 at 10:21:55

When I purchased my Norton in 1973 I picked it up at the dealer in London and put enough miles on it to ship it home without paying any duty on it. Learning to again ride on the wrong side of the road was a real challenge and I sure 45 years later traffic has not improved.

Kenny G

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by mpescatori on 03/14/17 at 07:23:44

;D Seems like somebody did get caught into the spitting contest, and now needs to wipe his face ;D

Back to bikes...

Many Countries "force" specific mechanical or marketing characteristics, in such a way to control their domestic marlet.

Japan, for example, taxes bikes over 400cc to death, so that they become extraordinarily expensive.
So many 750/900cc models we have are only seen in their 400cc variant in Japan.
See Honda CBX, Honda VFF, Yamahas XJ etc.
Guzzi sold its "V35/V50" air cooled twin as the "V40" for the japanese market only.

Similarly... in Sweden nobody would ever consider buying a car not equipped with an engine heater or a heated windshield; in the Mediterranean area these would be redundant, but you'd want metallic paint to keep the heat down in the hot summers.
In some places you'd welcome warm velvet upholstery, elsewhere it's synthetic fabric or leather because velvet is needlessly hot.

Back to bikes: 400cc twins are excellent commuter/utility bikes, and were considered "quite good" in 19702/1980's Europe.
These days you need a 1000cc behemoth to commute to work - that or a CVT 250cc scooter.

Back in the day, most bikes shared very much the same architecture:
OHV (pushrod) single or twins, air cooled, drum brakes and c comfortable cruising speed anywhere from 50 to 70mph.
They all had kick start and points&condenser ignition.
...And they all leaked oil somehow or other ;)

Enter Honda.

For whatever engineering strategy, Hondas were OHC twins when their European counterparts were OHV.

For whatever engineering strategy, Hondas were often undersquare and would rev higher than their European OHV counterparts.

For whatever engineering strategy, Hondas were often equipped with a 5 speed gearbox when their European OHV counterparts.

For whatever engineering strategy, Hondas were equipped with CDI ignition when their European counterparts still relied on points&condenser.

The result is that even the "humble" Honda CB 302 looked "more bike" than the average European 350 counterpart

http://www.bikez.com/pictures/honda/1962/dream%20305.jpg Honda CB 302 Twin ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Honda CB 750 Four http://www.bikez.com/pictures/honda/1972/cb%20750%20f.jpg
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/aermacchi/1962/250%20ala%20verde%20serie%201.jpg Aermacchi 250 Ala Verde single ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Ducati 750 GT http://www.bikez.com/pictures/ducati/1972/750%20gt.jpg
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/matchless/1962/g3%20350.jpg Matchless G3 350 single ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... BSA Rocket http://www.bikez.com/pictures/bsa/1972/a%2075%20rocket%203.jpg
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/bmw/1963/r27.jpg BMW R27 250 single ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... BMW R75/5 http://www.bikez.com/pictures/bmw/1972/r%2075-5.jpg

When Honda first came out with its CB 750 Four, it was a revelation.
Or, as others put it, a Revelation, meaning the Apocalypse of Old World motorcycling.

Check out these 750cc motorcycles from 1972 and see for yourselves.

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Kris01 on 03/14/17 at 18:40:25

Some of those are beautiful bikes!

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by mpescatori on 03/15/17 at 03:50:00

Absolutely !

Back in the day... 1960's and 1970's...

japanese bikes were beautiful works of art, with wonderful chrome and engines that were true mechanical masterpieces ! 8-)
And which never broke down... ::)
And with reliable electrical systems... ::)
And sexy instrtument pods and switchgear... ::)
But which couldn't go around corners... ::)
And often had ridiculous brakes too... ::)

There is one curious incident which says it all.
In 1970 Moto Guzzi had just introduced their new V7 Sport, and motorcycle magazine "Motociclismo" invited other bike manufacturers to Monza raceway to test their bikes against the new Guzzi cafe racer...

http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Moto_Guzzi_V_7_Sport_1972.jpg/300px-Moto_Guzzi_V_7_Sport_1972.jpg Here with Mike Hailwood http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/thumb/3/31/Mike1972WP.jpg/220px-Mike1972WP.jpg

Not everybody responded...

On the designated day, only six manufacturers showed up, and these were the bikes lined up at the start line:
Ducati 750 GT, Honda CB 750 Four, Kawasaki 750 Mach IV (2-stroke triple), Laverda 750 SF, Suzuki GT 750 (2-stroke triple).

Although the two 2-strokes shot away like banshees in a cloud of blue smoke on GO!, with the Honda CB750 screaming a close 3rd,
by the time the bikes completed the 1st lap one could only head the roar of the three italian twins battling it out of the "parabolica", the three japanese bikes having been "eaten alive" at Lesmo (curves 6, 7).
Back in those days the two chicanes (1-2) and (3-4) and Ascari (curves 8-9-10) didn't exist.

http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Monza_track_map.svg/260px-Monza_track_map.svg.png

In the end, the Guzzi V7 lapped a full 4" quicker than the fastest jap, the Honda CB750, and a whopping 11" faster than the Kawa KH750, considered on paper the fastest bike of the lot, but which suffered from a very poor frame.
Suzuki GT750 (water buffalo) had stopped for tea and biscuits.

Honestly, I miss those times...

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/15/17 at 05:09:33

Production bike Shoot Outs should be the norm. Same with cars. They should run a race with random machines off the production lines. Long enough races to test endurance and OEM equipment. The stock tires on a Savage? Phhhht..

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Ruttly on 03/15/17 at 06:59:47

Yeah I really like the new Guzzi V7 ! The kinda bike you buy and never sell , just ride n ride n ride

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by Kris01 on 03/15/17 at 18:42:04

I used to ride the Water Buffalo's baby brother, the GT250. 40 years later I can still hear and smell it! Ah, nostalgia! ;D

Title: Re: Genuine 400
Post by sjaskow - FSO on 03/16/17 at 10:58:18

26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:

Up until the 60s, Mobil and USAC used to do just that to determine economy numbers for production cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobil_Economy_Run. I remember reading them in my dad's old car magazines when I was a kid.