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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Normal carbon buildup?? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1486940259 Message started by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 14:57:37 |
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Title: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 14:57:37 Is this a normal amount of buildup for a 2012 with 6500 miles? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by batman on 02/12/17 at 15:16:09 I'm no expert but I "think" that's a lot of carbon for only 6,500 miles,between you shaving the needle jet and the 55 idle jet ,and the fact that your plug had carbon at the base ,these all indicate that you were running rich. I 'm curious, how did you finally get that last nut off the headbolt? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 15:38:31 Here's my plug. I always thought I might be a touch rich. I haven't got the bolt off yet, I took the whole head + cylinder off together. I think I'll be sawing that bolt off :/ other side came off no problem. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by LANCER on 02/12/17 at 15:59:27 That's a fair amount of carbon for 6500 miles but I've seen wors. Yes, you are rich. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 16:01:00 With the high compression piston going in, I'll be tweaking the jetting. Good to know for the adjustments though. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Armen on 02/12/17 at 16:42:49 Can you humor me and take a pic of the piston from the side? Specifically the ring land area? thanks |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Ruttly on 02/12/17 at 16:51:29 Rich and/or possible valve stem seal(s) bad Not so much the color but the texture |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 16:54:54 Say what?! After so few miles? I mean I like to ride it spirited but I don't abuse it. I was gonna take it to a shop to be honed, is it simple enough for them to check the valve stem seals too? Are valve stems an issue on these bikes? Hadn't heard of anything like that. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Armen on 02/12/17 at 16:55:01 What heat range is the plug? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 17:00:50 Here are those piston pics of the side. Probably post inner cylinder ones soon. Walls are smooth, but feels like chunky carbon toward the top... |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 17:02:18 Different rotation Stock plug. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/17 at 17:02:34 68656A6761763633040 wrote:
Your observation is the piston, the plug, both? The piston doesn't look good even to me, Could the piston be carrying a carbon buildup from a few thousand miles ago? Or does the plug indicate running rich now? If I had an engine running rich and figured it out and got it jetted right, would the piston Keep its carbon buildup or would it slowly shed it? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Armen on 02/12/17 at 17:09:55 I'm inclined to think that the carbon is oil, not gas. The crud on the piston between the rings makes me think the rings weren't sealing well, and that oil was sneaking past the rings up into the combustion chamber. How was the oil consumption? What weight and what brand of oil? Plug looks a tad hot with a lot of crud on it. Often people use a hotter plug to keep it clean when a motor is running too rich or burning oil. Kinda thinking out loud here. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 17:43:11 Everything is stock, haven't replaced the plug. Got the bolt off, pics below of valves, exhaust and top of the cylinder... Oil I use, Rotella t6 synthetic 5w-40 |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 17:45:30 Cylinder... |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 17:47:01 Exhaust. Had an earlier leak, replaced the head gasket. Maybe still leaking? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Armen on 02/12/17 at 19:21:02 This is kinda like trying to smell rotten eggs over the telephone, but here goes: If the bike is 'all stock'. These bikes are known to run very lean, and therefor pretty hot. I've seen more than a few blue their head pipes back to the muffler. To make the pollution gods happy, the bikes are jetted lean in the lower ranges, which is where most folks ride. I know everyone has their own idea of a good time, but I would never run 5-40 oil in an air-cooled bike unless I was living at the North Pole. A combination of thin oil and a hot running air-cooled motor means the oil thins out and is more likely to sneak past the rings. Which makes me think that the carbon is oil, not fuel. If, as you said the bike is stock, and has not been rejected way too rich. The combination of the clean porcelain on the plug and the build up of crap on the side electrode makes me think that the bike is running hot (as stockers do) and is burning oil. How was oil consumption? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 19:28:27 Hmm good thoughts to keep in mind. I do a lot of longer distance 60-70 mph riding. It's possible it could be oil, but I haven't noticed drastic drops in oil levels. Although I haven't been checking it all the time either... What do you think I should run? 5w-30? Lower? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Armen on 02/12/17 at 19:31:41 Lower is thinner. So, if the 5-40 is sneaking past the rings, the 5-30 would be blasting past them. In my bikes I run 10-40 in the winter and 15-50 or 20-50 in the summer. I know there are some folks on the forum with very different ideas, and I respect them, just saying what I run. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 19:33:48 Ah right. May look into filling this round with a higher number oil. Thanks! Do I need to look into getting valves cleaned up? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by batman on 02/12/17 at 19:39:18 Arman, I think you may be on to something. What bothers me ,is the jetting, a 55 idle jet may be over the top (rich) at his 200 ft. ele.The 145 main may be running hot(lean) for anything above idle,and he made no mention of a spacer mod. 5w-40 could thin to 3-4w in a hot engine,and flow by the rings.Rotella (dino) 15w -40 might be a better choise for oil,and you really need to rejet the carb,a 3/4 -1/2 spacer mod,and a 150 -152.5 main at least. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 19:45:27 I'll be adjusting the jets, and will try lowering the pilot. I shaved the spacer down to about 2/3 original thickness. So I'm hearing fill with 10w50, or something close and go from there? Not sure I want to do this teardown just to check anytime soon though :/ |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by batman on 02/12/17 at 19:59:30 Jwenrich, was your header pipe turning blue? that could be an indication of either to lean (usual) or to rich(rarely the case). |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 20:00:56 Not blue, just some gradual golding. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Kris01 on 02/12/17 at 20:02:30 Should the intake valves be that black (rich) while the exhaust valves are that white (lean)? I know the exhaust runs cleaner due to heat but that looks like a huge temperature swing to me. You're definitely burning too much of something. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by buster6315 on 02/12/17 at 20:12:16 25382A213D262C274F0 wrote:
Where is your breather routed? To the air box? If so, you may want to vent it to the atmosphere instead. Various riders in other groups say venting the breather to the air box causes your carbon build up. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/12/17 at 20:17:19 Yeah the breather runs to the airbox. Also, upon cracking it open, no mesh was present before the breather tube :( Could lack of a mesh filter contribute to this? Do I need a tiny filter thing on the end of the breather hose? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by batman on 02/12/17 at 22:27:26 I'd replace the mess in the cover it helps the oil drop out and return to the sump,I would think without it an unwanted amount of oil is being drawn in by the carb and adding to your carbon buildup . |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/17 at 22:39:31 General consensus on the packed mesh is it gives oil vapor something to smash into , condense and drip back to the crankcase. If it's not there, And the vent tube goes to the intake, that sounds like a recipe for carbon in the cylinder. And oil consumption. I wonder if a scrubby pad for pots would shove in there.. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Dave on 02/13/17 at 04:16:52 I believe you have this condition based on several factors. (1) You have been running the engine with too big of a pilot jet....a #52.5 or #50 is plenty for a bike with a stock air box. (2) If somebody took the mesh out of the head....you are getting too much oil vapor from the vent tube. Leave the vent tube where it is in the air cleaner housing....it works well when the mesh is in the head where it is supposed to be. (3) Your choice of oil is too thin - why not use the 15W-40 Rotella T that this forum recommends for the Savage? If it was my bike....I would leave the cylinder head together, take a plastic bag and tape and seal up everything but the combustion chamber part of the head, and have somebody blast it with walnut shells to remove the carbon....walnut shells are not abrasive and will not alter the smooth finish of the aluminum like glass beads or sand would. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by norm92de on 02/13/17 at 11:45:40 I can't add much but that looks like an awful lot of carbon for 6000 miles! I hope my piston doesn't look like that. I have about 5000 on mine. :'( |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by eau de sauvage on 02/13/17 at 16:21:33 Question: Is the pic of the spark plug on page one of this thread indicative of a rich mix, or is the rich mix diagnosis based on the piston carbon build up? |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Armen on 02/13/17 at 16:40:00 Not clear about something. You had said you 'shaved the spacer down to 2/3 it's original thickness'. Does that mean the needle is sitting lower than it was originally? I'd def pull the valves, clean up the heads on a wire wheel, and decarbonize the head. Considering how wonky this thing has been running, it wouldn't be a bad idea to lap the valves in with a bit of valve grinding compound. Are you swapping out the piston or rings? I'd def give the cylinder a hone with a Flex Hone and some honing oil. There are some god break-in oils out there, def use one and DO NOT break in with synthetic. There is a whole voodoo to proper break-in if you'd like the rings to seat. If you want, I'll write it all up. My 2 cents. -Armen PS, the plug tells me it is running hot, based on how clean the porcelain is and how much crud there is everywhere else. The plug is so hot it is burning off all that kaka. First I'd get the oil situation under control, then I'd get the jetting sorted out, then I'd take plug readings seriously. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by jwenrich on 02/13/17 at 17:47:02 So much wonderful input. Thank you all. Someone asked why I was using 5w-40. This post is why: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 I'll be putting some form of mesh in the breather tube hole. Cylinder is being honed, and the carbon being cleaned off. The guy didn't have walnuts, but will use some sort of buff thing to get the major stuff off. Thanks for the heads up on non-synthetic for break in. Jetting: I'm gonna start by stepping down the pilot, and go from there. Spark plug: Its the stock plug. Should I replace this with a colder plug? What benefit does cold vs. hot give me? Needle shaving: I took the original plastic spacer, and sandpapered it down to about 2/3 original thickness. So the needle sits higher. I also shaved off a very small amount of the pointy tip of the needle (not my brightest idea :/ ) Once I get the head back, I can look into pulling the valves. And I am replacing the piston with the high compression one from Lancer. |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by batman on 02/13/17 at 20:31:04 You should get a new needle for the carb (and don't play with it! the needle is shaped to work with the needle jet! their a matched pair) |
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Title: Re: Normal carbon buildup?? Post by Dave on 02/14/17 at 03:54:25 64796B607C676D660E0 wrote:
You should buy the stock oil breather mesh from Suzuki - part #11186-24B02. It is only $ 8.50 and you know it will work like it is supposed to. http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/detail/suzuki/11186-24b02/b1035292?m=147543&sch=552692 You should use the stock plug heat range - there is no reason to mess around with hotter/colder plugs. You should jet the bike to run properly.....then the stock heat range plug will work just fine. |
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