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Message started by Hoodlum333 on 02/11/17 at 11:34:59

Title: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/11/17 at 11:34:59

You all have been a tremendous help to this noob and I hope you can pull through the for me again. My bike has been sitting for about 2 months. It ran just fine before, but then I couldn't get it started. I did everything I was supposed to do and narrowed it down to a fuel issue. When I took the carb Bowl off, the float was stuck and I needed to knock it loose. It is free now but the fuel inside the bowl was Green? Anyway I fired it up and it would not start without full choke. I had to run wot with full choke to even keep her running. I took her for a test drive around the block, and she tried to die on me the whole way, jerking back and forth as I tried to keep it running. And she is popping something fierce. The floats in the bowl were corroded with green and yellow residue, and I'm pretty sure I need to rebuild the carb.
As a rather novice mechanic, with plenty of hours logged on YouTube, I feel I can do this no problem. As this is my cheap Project Bike, I don't want to spend a whole lot of money. Is there an inexpensive carb rebuild kit with jets that you guys recommend I purchase? Also, with my bike being an 87, I could not find any information on whether the petcock is vacuum or not. It flows freely and both the on and reserve positions and I don't know if this is an issue as well. Thanks for the assist.
-Rick

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by verslagen1 on 02/11/17 at 12:35:02

You can tell if it's a vac petcock if it's got 2 hoses connected to it.
but if it's flowing when on and res, it's either not or stuck on.
another way it's got an off position.

take the bowl off, remove the main jet and the idle jet and clean them.

a oz of sea foam in the tank can't hurt either.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/11/17 at 13:18:09

If the bowl was green and you had to knock the float loose, it was stuck in the
The bowl is low on fuel, allow fuel to flow in
Position.
Your float opens and closes a needle valve. You need to make sure it's clean and moves easily. A bit of crud will keep it from seating. Dried green crap inside the tube that needle runs in, crap on the needle, anything that causes resistance can cause the fuel to continue to flow.
A tip cleaner for a welders torch has some tiny, rough edged wires that can be helpful in cleaning up jets. Don't go nuts. Get a spray can of Berrymans B12, Wear Eyeball Protection.. I hold my breath, squirt, get to fresh air, A green hue to the aluminum is one thing. A layer of green crap that can soften in gas and move around is quite another.
Some of the plastic stuff doesn't appreciate Berrymans, protect things, squirt through the small openings, IDK if the TEV? , I hope that is the right name, has to come out.
Unless you have made changes to the airflow through the engine, intake and exhaust mods, the jets you have were the jets that it's been running on.
If it's been dumping gas it's possible some has gotten into the air filter and oil.
Yes, you can win this. No, you shouldn't have to buy much. But do hold the needle valve up to a light and check it for an indentation around the black part and see if it's still a little bit soft.

And, since I Know there is so much I Don't know about the carb, anything I've said could be corrected by any number of people.
Just don't get in a hurry,

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/13/17 at 21:15:00

Knocking the float valve to get it loose may have changed your float height ,you should check it before replacing the float bowl.there is also a filter screen up in the carb body above the float valve seat in the path the fuel travels from the petcock to the float bowl,if it is plugged it will slow flow to the carb starving the jets and might be why the motor doesn't want to run without the choke adding extra fuel.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/17/17 at 13:31:45

Only think I disagree with Justin's post above, is using welder cleaners to help you clean the jets. It is best if nothing that can scratch the holes in the jets be used, even a properly sized drill bit.

Best to soak in carb cleaner, and then used compressed air to gently blow through them. May need to be repeated several times. Make sure that anything you stick into them will not be able to mar or scratch the hole.

I understand, that when they make these jets, they don't just number them by the hole size, but by the actual flow rate. Marring up the interior hole can affect fuel flow.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/17/17 at 13:51:47

Thanks for the info guys. Got the carb out and a gallon of barryman dip. Got the carb half taken apart and am trying to find a good how to with pics. darn think doesn't even have a model number to reference, just mikuni and made in jap

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/17/17 at 14:04:14

One question though....I bought the bike already bobbed and customized. Lots of mods, mostly from ryca. It had no hoses attached to either of the carb bowl vents....they are just open and exposed. Only line in is the fuel line. Is this a concern?

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/17/17 at 14:54:50

If you need to ,you can use a small piece of copper wire to run through the jets ,as copper is softer than the brass jet an won't damage it.Without the overflow hoses that normally run up into the center of the frame's square backbone,outside air (with humidity) may have found a short and easy path into your carb bowl and caused formation of all the Green crud your cleaning out now.It's best to drain a carb for long term storage. carb model BS-40

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by LANCER on 02/18/17 at 03:59:14

While cleaning the jets do not forget all the passageways in the carb body. Most are saaociated with the pilot system, there are several there. Using pressurized carb cleaner along with the tiny copper wire will help you get it clean . Wear safety glasses or a face shield when spraying the carb cleaner because it came out at surprising angles and can hit you in the face if you are not familiar what with the exit points.
Forgot to mention , use the tiny red tube that comes with the can of carb cleaner when spraying into the carbs passageways.
If when you spray into a hole, and there is no exit for the spray, then you have a clog that needs to be removed.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/18/17 at 06:57:18

Batman's and Lancer's directions are GREAT!!!

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/18/17 at 14:43:53

So I got her all back together and she started right up...Choke out but not Wot this time. However, it is popping (not backfire) and Everytime it pops I see flashes coming from in the filter.???

The K&L 18-5064 carb kit that I ordered had a gasket that was slightly off (didn't use) and a float needle and housing that was very similar (albiet a tad shorter) that I did install.

Is this an indication of running rich?

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/18/17 at 20:49:43

The kit you ordered appears to be the right one. Was the valve that hangs from the float really shorter?(that seems odd),or is it that the valve seat seems to set deeper into the carb body? If you see fire coming back through the carb ,that is backfiring,flames or a pop from the muffler is actually afterfiring,which are you seeing? Did you check the float height after installing the new valve and seat? did you reinstall the o-ring and filter under the seat? we need these quistions answered! It does sound like the float valve is not closing or is set to high and is flooding the bowl sending way to much fuel into the carb which tends to ignite at idle speed . I'd turn the petcock on reserve /or pri and wait a while before starting the bike to see if you get fuel out the overflows ,if not the float bowl level still my be set to high. float height (easy to set if you turn the carb upside down) from the flange to the bottom of the float 1.04-1.16 inches or 26.4-29.4mm

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/19/17 at 06:03:11

Batman, many thanks for the assist. I will provide what I know. UPDATE: I fired her up yesterday and opened her up on the road. When throttle is on, she does just fine, plenty of power. The SECOND you let off the throttle, even to shift, it sounds like a fireworks grand finale. I mean the popping was beyond rediculous. The second you let off the throttle, she dies.

In answer to your question, the float pin was identical, but the float valve was fractionally smaller. I can take a pic when I get her back apart.

No, I did not see pop from the pipes, but when I took the filter off and watched while throttling, I noticed fuel igniting as the slide went up and down. Each ignition, seeming to occur at random intervals, caused the engine to lose power and try to die.

When I dismantled the carb, I could not get the whole thing apart. I got a gallon of berrymans for a dip, but since I couldn't get the whole carb apart, I did not attempt to dip it as I was afraid there could be hidden rubber washers or plastic components in there. It has been dismantled before. The damed screws were so tight that I started to strip the ones retaining the needle in the slide, so I couldn't remove that.

Additionally, I did my best to reinstall the same way I took it apart. I counted 3 complete turns when removing my main jet, but when I went to reinstall, I turned 4 times til it stopped. I don't know if this is now starving my bike but I did this because the threads were so loose that it felt as if the bike rattling during normal operation would have caused the screw to "move".

In addition, I drained the tank, removed the petcock, cleaned the filter, ran new fuel lines and installed an on-line filter. Should the flow from the petcock be alot when "on", because it looks rather "medium" if that makes sense.

I know have a much better "guide" that I have found on this site. I will remove the carb and start again. I know that is alot of info. What are your thoughts?

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/19/17 at 06:58:23

First off ,an inline filter can cause flow problem due to becoming air bound ,the screen on the petcock is good enough ,I'd get rid of the filter,it's the cause of your slower flow. When you installed the main jet there should have been a brass washer under the jet ,it sometime tends to wander off,(like it has a life of it's own ;)it's a spacer that needs to be there or the jet screws in to far,.It also holds the needle jet (the brass cylinder with all the holes) up in place(important).You should also make sure the same jet is all the way up in the body there's a notch in the side of it , but it's that brass washer that holds it up in place ! That was probably the "loose " feeling you had.(the whole assembly will move up and down the thickness of the washer if it's not there) The jet sliding down away from the jet needle could well be the cause of you running rich.I'd also still check float height while your at it. good luck!

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/19/17 at 07:12:15

Disagree about the inline fuel filter with above post. I had several on my old 1,000cc and only ran one line to feed the carb at a time. I only got 40 MPG so it was needing more fuel than my Savage. Never, after having the filter on for three years and close to 16,000 miles did I ever have any fuel flow problem, and also, not even any dirt, as I had thoroughly cleaned my tank and petcock out beforehand.

Perhaps it was the brand I used, but soon one will go on my Savage. In my mind it is better than having any dirt in the carb.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/19/17 at 07:29:09

PB, some have had trouble in the past with running the fuel line in a way to prevent the filter from becoming air bound,also these filters tend to trap and hold water which can be another problem. Anything small enough to pass through the screen on the petcock is not large enough to plug up jets or passages in the carb so there use seems to be redundant . If you feel you must, use one,but they're more likely to be a problem than a cure. having no fuel flow problems after 16,000 miles(40mpg=4000 gallons of fuel) may be because any dirt was stopped at the petcock filter,never getting to the inline filter?If you had told me you had to change the filter in the course of three years, I would be more inclined to think it had actually done something!

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/19/17 at 14:18:19

Thanks for the input. Couple questions/comments...
1. I heard something about an impact screwdriver set from harbor freight. Is this something I should explore or could I do more damage than good? How to I get these stubborn internal screws loose without damaging them?
2. I will test the fuel flow with and without the inline filter. Maybe my petcock needs to be rebuilt/replaced.
3. When I purchased the bike it had an aftermarket pod filter on the carb and an aftermarket exhaust. I do not know what mods were done to the carb (ie rejetting). It ran strong for months after I purchased it. Should I be concerned about this?

Thanks again for the input guys.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/19/17 at 14:49:46

333, first off the screws on these bikes are JIS ( japanese industrial standard) they may look like phillipshead but the x shape is shallower .you should pick up the JIS drivers so as not to strip out the heads of these screws,as phillipheads don't insert fully into the slots. A impact driver can be useful for larger screws & bolts ,but you might use penetrating oil just place a screwdriver in small screws and tap them lightly with a hammer before turning. I wouldn't be concerned with the jetting right now ,there's a good chance it was already done, and you said it had been running before,so it must be at least workable,you can adjust it later when your up and running.......I think your petcock is ok you have plenty going to the carb!

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/19/17 at 14:54:57

So much I don't know. Never heard of JIS. Thank you. I am going to pep boys tonight for some spray berrymans and I will look for JIS screw drivers. Thanks again!

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/19/17 at 16:13:15

Dang....Nowhere to buy JIS screwdrivers locally. All special order. Is there a type of precision screwdriver set, like say Milwaukee from home depot that would work as a viable substitute?

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by IslandRoad on 02/19/17 at 17:57:34

File down the tip of a #2 Phillips screwdriver until it seats snuggly in the JIS screw. It works a treat, even on screws with a damaged head.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/20/17 at 04:04:21

Great idea!!! Thanks island.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/20/17 at 12:44:24

Island road is correct it can be done ,I would advise you to use a hand file to reshape the point ,a grinder would tend to over heat the point and it would lose it's hardness. You might try Sears (craftsman tools)

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/20/17 at 12:58:56

Yes, gonna hand file.

Regarding the inline fuel filter discussed earlier, I turned off the petcock and removed the carb. The fuel stopped flowing, but the inline fuel filter is full (it is clear so I can see it.) It is not a vacuum petcock. So, does the carb actually pull in the fuel? The remaining fuel in the filter would leave me to believe that the filter actually DOES restrict the fuel flow, even though it appeared to flow the same with or without the filter. :-/

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/20/17 at 14:05:36

I put them in the screwdriver and poke them up against the bench grinder. Only takes a couple of seconds. I've put them in the impact and seen no problems.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/20/17 at 19:48:10

333 , When you closed the petcock ,the fuel level above the filter dropped a little and formed a vacuum holding the fuel in the filter.the carb doesn't pull fuel in,it flows by gravity ,when the petcock is open gas flows to the carb and is replaced by air coming through the filler cap on the tank,which is vented .

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Dave on 02/21/17 at 05:56:02

1F3838333B223A646464570 wrote:

Inline fuel filters can be problematic. The stock fuel line is relatively small, and the problem with the fuel filters is the nipple end has a really small hole through it....an air bubble can get trapped in the small passage and block the flow of fuel....the air is trying to go up - while the fuel is trying to flow down - and nothing flows.

This issue has been discussed before...some people can use the inline filters and never had a problem, some never get them to work, and some folks get them to work when first installed - then they cause problems later on and the problem is hard to troubleshoot....as it has been working OK for many miles.

Here is a link to the fuel filter discussion thread in the Tech Section. Hondalavis tried one and it worked for a while...then didn't. Go to post #17 to read about his issues.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1211846392

In my opinion, the problem with installing a filter - is that the Suzuki Savage uses gravity to get the fuel to flow. A gallon of gasoline weights 6.07 pounds per gallon - or about 45 pounds per cubic foot. This means that each 3.17 feet of height results in about 1 pound per square inch of pressure. I don't have a bike here to measure - but if there is about 16" from the top of the fuel tank to the float bowl.......there is only 0.4 psi attempting to push the fuel past the float needle. As the fuel level drops the pressure becomes even less. The result is that adding a restriction in the fuel line (filter with small openings in the nipples) is a very bad idea......look at the nipples on the petcock and carb and you will see that they are made of very thin tubing and don't reduce the flow diameter below the size of the rubber tubing - while the plastic filters are made of thick plastic and do reduce the opening size dramically. At these small diameters, the changes in the area of the tube is drastic. The stock hose is 9mm, which is a diameter of 0.354 inches and has an internal area of 0.0986". A 5/16" hose is the closest inch size, and that drops the internal area to 0.0767 sq. in - which is a reduction of 22%. If you reduce that size to 1/4", the area drops to 0.0491 sq. in. - which is a reduction of 50%....you have cut the internal flow area in half! If you are installing 1/4" fuel filter....and it has thick plastic nipples - it will be even worse....and it can easily trap air bubbles that cause the fuel to stop flowing.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/21/17 at 07:20:13

A modern teacher would drop the chalk and go sit at the desk now.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by LANCER on 02/21/17 at 07:59:34

;D ;D ;D 8-)

Agreed.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by ohiomoto on 02/21/17 at 09:30:29

Chalk drop!? :)

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/21/17 at 09:44:02

Dave ,your stunningly depressing! :) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Dave on 02/21/17 at 10:15:40

3C3F2A333F306A665E0 wrote:

Dave ,your stunningly depressing! :) :) :) :)

An engineer should never pass up a chance to use the the crap that they made us memorize in college!
;D

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/21/17 at 19:10:41

Holy cow, thanks Dave. That was quite the knowledge bomb you just dropped....Much appreciated. I will difinately remove the filter.

I have a peanut tank and the distance between the petcock and the carb fuel nipple is probably 9" of hose wound under my tank, and only about a 4.5" drop, so what you are saying makes sense. Plus I just downgraded from 3/8 to 1/4 fuel line due to cramped quarters. Looks like adding further restriction by way of an inline filter may not have been to bright. I will address this for sure after I clean the carb again. Thanks for the physics lesson :o

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Dave on 02/22/17 at 03:13:59

And......I never even mentioned the negative effects of the wetted perimeter in comparison to the flow area! As the tube gets smaller the frictional boundary has more influence on the flow at the center of the moving liquid.
:o

The frictional boundary at the wetted perimeter is what causes the liquid at the outer diameter to flow slower than the center......think of how the center of the river flows faster than the water at the banks.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/22/17 at 08:16:03

Done and done. It is raining so I didn't take her out, but she ran for ten minutes in the garage without dying. The bike ran fine two months ago until I got a flat and my lazy a$$ took forever fixing it....and I live in Florida! Missed alot of riding. Anyway, I don't know what the hell the problem was unless it was merely coincidental-which I think happens far to often. When it rains it pours. Once I decided to clean the carb, I think I just got a little crazy with things that didn't necessarily need fixin'. Thanks much guys for all your info. I know all the info provided could be found on a myriad of threads, but I got three kids and no time to play on the internet...so thanks for you patience.

I'm super stoked that I fixed this with my own hands.

Savage Greg - Thanks for your awesome Carb Specs sticky

Serowbot - Thanks for the informative "Carb tuning for beginners" sticky.

Verslagen 1 - thanks for helping me understand the petcock.

Justin o guy2 - Thanks for TONS of info and also for recommending Berrymans, that stuff rocks!

Batman - thanks to you also for TONS of info and sticking with me with very helpful replies. The inline filter was an issue (not the original problem, but it added to the a$$pain.) Also, the JIS screwdriver debacle was very informative....I had no idea.

Island Road - I made two homemade "JIS" drivers based off your advise. I'm calling them Redneck Industry Standard and they have been promoted from the toolbox to the pegboard. Thanks much!

Lancer - Thanks for your detailed carb cleaning tips. It helped immensely.

Last but not least, thanks Dave for the physics and "common sense" class. I'm a career Soldier and not an engineer, so us knuckle-draggers need a little help now and then. I now have unobstructed fuel at the largest angle and shortest hose length I could manage.

My only remaining question is why didn't anyone tell me not to install float upside-down? ;D >:( ::) If you're curious, it causes fuel to shoot out the bowl vents. That was fun.

Thanks again guys. I learned ALOT and I enjoyed it. You make it enjoyable for a novice mechanic to have a project bike.

-Rick

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/22/17 at 19:15:09

333 Hope it runs well! We didn't tell you about the float because you didn't ask! :) :) :) BUT to tell the truth I didn't know it would even fit that way ,so now you've thought me something new!

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/27/17 at 06:50:24

One more question all....I don't want to start a new thread so hopefully this is read. Bike starts and runs fine. However, if I shut her off after a ride, she revs really high upon restart...for about 15-30 seconds and then she goes back down to normal RPMs. This is with no choke, no throttle, and the length of the ride has not mattered. Also, I live in Florida where the temp is relatively the same, so I don't think that matters either.

I thought cleaning the carb and running a new fuel line may fix this. I had the same problem before the carb rebuild, but the problem remains. It is not a huge issue, just kind of embarrassing and I would just prefer it not happen. Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by batman on 02/27/17 at 08:11:28

333,I tend to think your float level may still be a little high,I'd try closing the petcock off, a minute or two before stopping the motor, and not turning it on until after restarting . If you no longer have the high revs ,this may be the cause,and you might have your idle set a bit to high,which would compound the effect, as the bike starts runnining the use of fuel tends to drop the level and you return to a normal idle.I would reset the float level toward it's high end setting 1.16 " or 29.4mm as this would close the float valve earlier bringing the level down.

Title: Re: Carb issue
Post by Hoodlum333 on 02/27/17 at 10:29:22

Thanks Batman, I will give that a shot.