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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1486129974 Message started by piedmontbuckeye on 02/03/17 at 05:52:53 |
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Title: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/03/17 at 05:52:53 Has anyone gotten verification on the ZDDP level of the three new Rotella formulations, T4, T5, and T6. Thanks, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/03/17 at 06:47:24 Since I first posted my question above, I actually called Shell and talked to an engineer. Here were her suggestions: T4, T5 and T6 all have the same levels of ZDDP as the earlier Rotella, however, she also added the comments about their wet clutch compatibilities. She said that the T4 full petroleum based multi-grade oil is perfectly OK. Also, the T6, full synthetic is OK, but the T5, semi synthetic is NOT OK for the wet clutches! It does not meet the JASMO (sp?) specs, but the T4 and the T6 do. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by LANCER on 02/03/17 at 08:49:41 504945444D4F4E544255434B455945200 wrote:
Well okie dokie, thank you sir. [ch128521] |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 02/03/17 at 11:34:29 The world is still flooded with oil that was produced last year under the "interim period specs" and no one has done any VOA analysis on T-4 Rotella for this reason. There are no bottles out there with this year's date codes on them yet, although this is expected to change shortly. Rotella product engineers responding to different board members on various questions over the last few months have said that Rotella is basically the same as before, with changes to make it more "heat resistant". T6 synthetic as always been extremely heat proof, so all info points towards T6 as being the same stuff as in years previous. T4 however is a different oil in a new package containing a different additive formulation set however. AS SUCH the Petroleum Institute of America and BITOG will eventually perform VOAs on the new T4 formulation and post the information. Shell isn't talking any specifics yet at all on any of their "repackaged" oils. BITOG members won't bite on doing any VOAs until there are production gallon jugs marked as being done AFTER the changeover interim period is completely over. There is now a clear split in car diesel oils and over the road 18 wheeler diesel oils and in the oils called out for earth moving equipment. Ford and Cummings and the other diesel engine makers are still testing these new oils and have not certified all of them yet. Until the tests are all done (and any adjustments made) Rotella does not really have a finalized product spec. When we buy we must watch the weight of the oils we buy AND the jug markings to keep from getting the wrong stuff. Rotella brand has a 30 weight oil out for diesel cars now, and that is NOT what we want to be buying for our bikes. We want the stuff made for TRUCKS. This is 15w-40 for Rotella dino oil and 5w-40 for the Rotella synthetic oil. The Bumper Tables in the Tech Section will get modified as needed just as soon as good reliable information is available. Lastly, politics -- the new Congress and President are NOT fans of the EPA, nor EPA forced Green Mandate changes that are being made to American Industry. When the EPA Green Mandate is crushed, look to see oil makers tend to reformulate back to older, proven "known to be better formulations" as this will be instantly driven by competitive forces. This will be countered by the demands of sensor makers, with sensors going into everything now-a-days -- sensors that cannot live with the higher levels of ZDDP. SAE specs will responsibly balance these competing needs without all the Green Mandate nonsense being shoved into it. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by zipidachimp on 02/03/17 at 14:39:18 just bought a bottle of Redline ZDDP. I'll know what's in my T4! 8-) |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by SALB on 02/03/17 at 14:51:37 41524B525F5A585352564B3B0 wrote:
How do you calculate how much additive to use if you don't know what is in the base oil? Too much ZDDP can be as detrimental as too little. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Kris01 on 02/03/17 at 17:35:00 Best guess is good enough. The zinc levels haven't changed too much. If you're off by 100 ppm your bike won't care. I use 1 tsp per gallon of dino Rotella. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 02/03/17 at 18:31:40 Best guess is follow the existing bump table until more facts are known. I find it odd that the latest EPA mandated oil reformulation is being held as "top secret", don't you? |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/03/17 at 19:31:15 Bob Olree is Bob the Oil Guy https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1049812 I'm in no position to argue,,I'm not even sure I get it.. And I don't see how it really applies to the question at hand. Could We team up and send a sample to be tested? http://m.blackstone-labs.com IDK if they can check ZDDP or ZDP, whatever,, but they have a phone number.. It's $28.00. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 02/03/17 at 19:46:49 Just hold your breath for a bit, the murk will clear out when new production labeled as produced this year hits the shelves. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/03/17 at 20:42:23 I've sought clarification of many various forms of murk all my life. The idea that one murk may soon be cleared up is almost enough to excite me to the point of peeing blue. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/04/17 at 06:47:39 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote:
If you will do it, I will donate some $$ to help the cause. Hopefully I am known on here enough now to be trusted to keep my word! |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by raydawg on 02/04/17 at 07:38:10 Not sure if this is pertinent to our requirement RE: wet clutch performance, and how the EPA has caused headaches by requiring emissions to a point of motor damage, etc... But I run Suzuki's on my boats. When you get to the bigger 4 strokes, there has been damage caused to these big units caused by available oils and fuels, to meet EPA standards. I am in way too deep here, but I think class actions lawsuits are pending against Suzuki for not honoring warranties because of these EPA mandates. Yes, it seems a tangled mess, I hope some real science can help us deplorables to a normal pursuit of happiness, soon ;D |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 02/04/17 at 07:53:59 I have come to the conclusion that the EPA is not concerned about the damage caused to your "non-compliant" outboard, mower, chainsaw or farm tractor. The EPA would prefer that you stop using these old pieces of equipment, and go buy the new stuff that is EPA compliant. Struggling farmers and people struggling to keep their old equipment are expected to find some way to stop using the old 8N Ford that their granddad bought....and buy a new piece of equipment. It is my belief that the folks writing these "laws" are not in touch with the reality of what it takes to run a farm or eek out an existence on the fringe of bankruptcy and starvation. They want to force you to use their low ZDDP oils and E15 fuel in your equipment.....even if it means the equipment will be damaged. (Sorry for the Tall Table rant here in the Cafe'). |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by raydawg on 02/04/17 at 08:14:24 0B303D2A3B372C2A3139342B580 wrote:
The ISIS of the enviroment, eh? ;D PS: we better be careful, someone might complain, politically speaking.... ;) |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 02/04/17 at 12:11:45 SAE wrote the original changes that made oils a better match up for catalytic converters and sensors. This was the SL oil generation and it was reasonable enough. Then EPA started to jump in with their "environmental" stuff and imposed both SECRECY and much tighter this and that backed by fines against the motor oil industry. Yes, EPA needs to be culled back like kudzu vines. And yes, EPA apparently gives a fumerous dump about our antique split actuator flat tappet engine. And Suzuki is a bit odd too, currently saying for you to use SF or SG motor oils in the owners manual, oils that haven't been available for over a score of years now ..... And for ACTUALLY SELLING people "Suzuki Oil" a SN grade car oil that is bad for the cam lobes and tappets on a brand newly sold Savage bike engine. And for not having redesigned the head itself like Honda and Harley both did, to use a roller tappet arrangement that can take the current lower oil barrier film loads. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Buster on 02/04/17 at 12:59:13 I was trying to sort out the proper ratio of redline zddp booster to add at every oil change and ended up with a migraine headache. I'm just trying to figure out how much to add to 2 quarts of JASO MA oil that is bottled with Zinc level of approximately 900ppm? Basically how much Redline booster do I add to every oil change? Thank you. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Kenny G on 02/04/17 at 13:07:07 Buster, I use Rotela T6 I add a 1/2 ounce of RedLine at every oil change. I think Dave had it posted here on the forum at one time. Kenny G :-/ |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 02/04/17 at 13:16:10 Buster, read this in the Tech Section. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 We fix this table every time new oil formulations come out. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/04/17 at 13:36:05 And be aware that More is not only Not Better, it's downright destructive. The article I linked gives the percentages that are helpful and the percentage that starts to cause spalling. The cam is not a particularly hardy thing. We've seen pictures of some appalling spalling. Was it due to an accidental OD of ZDDP or crummy materials or something else? Since the cams in question were found in used bikes recently bought, the history can't be known. That's how I remember it, if anyone has a different story, please share. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by verslagen1 on 02/04/17 at 13:41:22 577960617A577A717C7B70150 wrote:
Be mean, ask your dealer [smiley=evil.gif] |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Buster on 02/04/17 at 13:51:30 I realize the mixture table is based on Rotella oil, so my question may have been a hijack, but oil I wanted to use usually shows a VOA of 800-900ppm zinc. Wonder if adding 1 ounce at every oil change would be okay? Guess I could add 1/2 ounce to quart bottle, shake vigorously, and send off sample in a VOA test kit. Or just use Rotella and be done with it. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/04/17 at 14:12:09 convert parts per million to percentage ppm to percent conversion calculator. ppm to percent, number conversion calculator. Enter a number in ppm and press the Convert button: Enter ppm: ppm. Percent result: ... How to convert ppm to percent. 1% = 1/100. 1ppm = 1/1000000. So. 1ppm = 0.0001% ... ppm to percent conversion table. ppm. Percent (%) 0 ppm. 0% |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Buster on 02/04/17 at 16:22:00 6E7177706D6A5B6B5B63717D36040 wrote:
Okay that just sent me running for another Imitrex. I did it this way: 16 ounce straight bottle has a total of 17,000ppm. Divided that into 16 increments and since I thought about trying 1 ounce per oil change using oil tested at 898ppm...I think it ends up being 1429ppm Zinc in the engine. I think. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 02/04/17 at 17:43:15 I recently read the new ZDDP level dropped from 1250 to 1050. :-/ I still like rotella; although, I will be adding some additive for sure now. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 02/05/17 at 13:48:04 Guys, the bump tables were fixed as per the last Rotella reformulation, so you don't need to do any guesswork. We will fix them again just as soon as some real facts are known. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/05/17 at 14:10:14 605B5641505C47415A525F40330 wrote:
Don't apologize! I agree! I LOVE the old 2-stroke Lawn Boy Mowers as they ran great, and almost all parts are still available. I have purchased many for $5.00 and with a little expense, they run great. All my push mower work is done by a mower that is over 45 years old and runs great. Just mix the oil and go! |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Papa Bear on 03/29/17 at 18:40:34 I just noticed this over at BITOG. Might be just the ticket for you high ZDDP guys. Delvac 1 SHC 5w-40 https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3784398/2 |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/29/17 at 19:40:18 I just wanna know how much RedLine to add to a gallon. Gotta protect the backhoe..too. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 03/29/17 at 22:12:41 As per the bump table --- one ounce of Redline per gallon. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 03/30/17 at 03:31:00 4C5B5D515E4E3C0 wrote:
Unless your source is reliable and qualified...I wouldn't trust it. The Shell sources I have seen state the ZDDP has gone up a little. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 03/30/17 at 03:33:21 687771766B6C5D6D5D65777B30020 wrote:
You likely don't have to add any to the backhoe.....the stock Rotella T is a good oil for use in your diesel - right out of the bottle. And it most likely doesn't need any bumping to use in the Savage - but some of us do bump a bit.....just because we can! |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 03/31/17 at 05:49:06 Just an FYI but not verified by me is what I heard lately, that the ZDDP additives are detrimental to wet clutches and not to be used. Maybe this does not apply to redline products. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 03/31/17 at 06:01:19 645F5245545843455E565B44370 wrote:
Unless your source is reliable and qualified...I wouldn't trust it. The Shell sources I have seen state the ZDDP has gone up a little.[/quote] That is some good news, what level is the new formula? Is it the same for synthetic as well? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 03/31/17 at 06:11:41 6A737F7E7775746E786F79717F637F1A0 wrote:
The ZDDP level is not an issue with the wet clutch.....the clutch issues are caused by Moly or other friction modifiers. We have confirmed that Redline is an acceptable ZDDP booster - some of the other ZDDP booster are not. Lucas ZDDP booster which is stocked locally is not recommended by Lucas for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. Ditto for Rislone ZDDP booster, Rislone won't recommend it for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 03/31/17 at 12:24:07 Piedmontbuckeye, now you begin to understand the "Oil War Rule" that you always post the link to your source material so folks can see where the info came from and can read it and interpret it for themselves. It saves Dave from having to debunk wrong statements from "somewhere" and it forces the casual poster to think about (and to grasp the 4 aspects of it) about the appropriate oil for a Savage. Not that this thought process is bad for us to go do occasionally, we get a constant stream of new people in here and we need to RESTATE this general knowledge every once and a while anyway just so new folks can see it. 1) The Savage has an antique SPLIT flat tappet valve train, the type of flat tappet system that runs two valves off of one lobe and that has the very highest tappet contact pressure of those old type of valve actuation systems. This type of valve system needs ZDDP in the oil, and it needs appreciable amounts of it. 1,200 to 1,350 PPM is the best range, based on past experience. We bump our oils to get up to this level as it doesn't come from the jug with enough ZDDP any more (not even Rotella). 2) The Savage has a clutch system that has arguably too few steels and fibers for a modified engine's peak torque / HP levels. This situation shows worst on a cold engine, first accelerations past 2nd and third gears where we tend to use full throttle. We tend to mod our bikes for higher engine torque and HP output, so our clutch system becomes in turn more sensitive to energy star modifiers (friction reducers) and mechanical adjustment issues. 3) Oil in a Savage breaks down and tends to leave the engine faster as it gets older. I used to use Rotella T6 to combat this breakdown issue, but then Rotella began to put more and more Moly Oil into their full synthetic formulations, the amount went from 0 to 40ppm then up to 70ppm which aggravated slippage in my engine and I found that dino Rotella didn't have this moly issue (still at 0 PPM for Moly additive). Changing back to Dino Rotella stopped the peak torque slippage issue immediately after the first oil change back to Rotella dino 15w40. HOWEVER, when the dino oil gets old and tired, slip issues tend to come back and become noticeable again. So, oil is an important part of the Savage and we treat it as such. Does everyone have slippage ??? Heck no they do not. (blessed, they are) However, slippage is understood and the fixes are understood as well. Old heavily modded bikes are worse compared to low mileage stock output scoots .... The last item isn't oil, it is MECHANICAL in nature. 4) Clutch push rods and clutch engagement. Versy states that ideal clutch push rod protrusion is circa 12-13mm of protrusion from the clutch pack. This translates to the correct placement of the clutch actuation lever to the marks on the gear case. Suzuki supplies 3 different lengths of push rods so users can tune this engagement zone because you will need all 3 push rod lengths as the clutch pack itself wears and gets "shorter" over time. The push rods themselves will also wear in use due to rotational rubbing, but the rods wear in a direction that is functionally assbackwards from the clutch fiber plate wear effects, which makes it difficult for the casual reader to grasp what is going on. Rod wear effects tend to be larger and faster occurring than the fiber plate wear effects. Does our clutch "wear out" ??? Not really, as using a different clutch push rod length puts it back into the sweet zone for proper function. We generally check this when checking cam chain wear / hole placement on our modded cam chain tensioners. Can our clutch plates get accidentally contaminated with Energy Star crap ??? Oh yes, just use the wrong oil for a while. Fibers and steels can be cleaned, see the Tech Sections for the how to information. Folks with limited understanding tend to post as if all HDEO oils are OK for the Savage --- this is not completely true as moly additives are now in MANY HDEO oils now and at levels that are suspiciously high for a slip free Savage clutch. ======================================= Dave, next time you have a clutch apart look at the basket and see if there is enough meat at the bottom for a lathe cut that will create some room for another steel and another fiber plate. This meat could come from the basket bottom or from the top pusher plate, or from both or by mebbe leaving out a "wasted" flat or beveled steel part that are in the stock stack up. (Dave has a big lathe and he has broken down engines laying about and the knowledge skills for this sort of quick look at it type stuff. Plus, a modified clutch basket and/or top plate could be a Market Place item that some folks might want). Ditto for Versy or Lancer, both have parts and baskets lying around their shops. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 03/31/17 at 14:03:29 Poppa Bear, please post the VOA analysis link for the EXACT Schaeffer oil you are recommending. I read what links you posted and it seems to be written in generalized ad-speak which says it honors the current standards, not what is actually in it or how it actually tested out. Remember, "the current standards" are what CAUSED our issues, so meeting them really isn't helpful in supplying our various Savage engine needs. TYPICAL PROPERTIES SAE Grade 15W-40 Specific Gravity @ 60ºF/15ºC 0.872 – 0.88 Viscosity @ 40[ch61616]C cSt (ASTM D-445) 102 – 108 Viscosity @ 100[ch61616]C cSt (ASTM D-445) 14.00-16.00 CCS Viscosity @ -20[ch61616]C cP (ASTM D-5293) 5,700 High Temperature High Shear Viscosity 302[ch61616]F/150[ch61616]C cP 4.3 High Temperature High Shear Viscosity 302[ch61616]F/150[ch61616]C cP after 90 cycles shear (ASTM D-7109) 4.0 Mini-rotary Viscosity-TP.1 @ -25[ch61616]C cP (ASTM D-4684) 20,500 Mini-Rotary Viscosity @ -20°C, cP -180hr sooted oil sample (Mack T- 11A ASTM D-6896 15,236 Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 154 Flash Point [ch61616]F/[ch61616]C (ASTM D-92) 440[ch61616]/221[ch61616] Fire Point [ch61616]F/[ch61616]C (ASTM D-92) 490[ch61616]/254[ch61616] Pour Point [ch61616]F/[ch61616]C (ASTM D-97/D-5950) -38[ch61616]/<-39[ch61616] Sulfated Ash Content % Wt. (ASTM D-874) 0.951 Total Base Number (ASTM D-2896) 10 NOACK Volatility (ASTM D-5800) % Evaporation Loss @ 250[ch61616]C 9.5% Shear Stability % Viscosity Loss – 90 Passes (ASTM D-7109) 9.96% Foam Test (ASTM D-892 Option A) Sequence I 0/0 Sequence II 0/0 Sequence III 0/0 High Temperature Foam Test (ASTM D6082 Option A) 0/0 Sequence IIIG % Viscosity Increase @ 40°C EOT 75% This seems to be just a listing of some of the tests required, not the results of any specific oil samples actually being tested. What the heck does Typical Properties mean at the top of this listing, anyway? ZDDP and moly amounts are not listed either, ever. Generally we find the real data comes from Virgin Oil Analysis done by Blackstone Labs or other certified testing labs as Blackstone tells you exactly what what was tested, what is in it and gives you viscosity range results for the specific oil type in question. People will post this in BITOG generally speaking. Also, a good rep making CAR oils really isn't relevant here, folks really struggle to get this concept when talking about good Savage oils -- NO CAR OIL meets our needs, none of them ..... oil weights are generally different now too. .... (except maybe Redline and Royal Purple racing car oils which are really sorta pricey sorta things). |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 04/04/17 at 04:38:14 Here is some good info on mobil 1 products. It would be beneficial if more groups provided information like this. https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/04/17 at 06:45:47 Mobil 1 was a good oil until they began "local market formulation and bottling" which meant the oil was bottled by regional bottlers according to some Mobil spec sheets which differed by nation, and by geography (and politics). This led to the "use the red cap, don't use the white cap" type controversies. Unfortunately, this became common for most oils as a consistent product became something you had to search for. There were a few oils that were consistent over a large area of the world, with Rotella being one of them. We quickly discovered you couldn't know what was in a Mobil 1 bottle, really, as the VOA data was so different over the course of locations and just a few months of production time. When it settled out it was obvious that Mobil 1 was just SN car oil, expensive, but just a SN car oil. Unless you bought V-Twin or Racing or Diesel ...... I see this problem with Mobil 1 still remains, huh ?? Simply just regionally spec'd SN car oil .... not suitable at all for a Savage. The Hurley VTwin and Diesel stuff is better, but at $8 a quart again for the V-Twin. To use this link, copy it to your browser address bar directly then retype the part of "guide.pdf" that is missing (link is too long for a "click to paste"). https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/04/17 at 07:28:16 Yep, oil changes year by year, region by region, especially EPA spec change by spec change (and sometimes those EPA changes come out more than once a year) http://pqiamerica.com/HDEO_Sample_Summary_Dec_2016.html PLEASE NOTE THE DATE on the test and run down and check the sheer amount of CHANGES done to Rotella T triple protection in just the last few years that each got a requested retest (yes, people do watch Rotella like a hawk and that is a good thing). Also note that PQIA tests East Coast vs Midwest also as they can see differences in formulations between the two that are mostly due to bottling companies and storage methods. Petroleum Quality Institute of America came into being because oils were getting completely out of control. Not to pick on Lucas, but Lucas would sell some 10w40 car oil as 15w40 diesel oil and they got caught at doing it ..... bottling error, they said at the time. When Warren Oil and its bottling distributor brothers bottle everybody's oil for them regionally to cut down on shipping costs per case, well then them ugly accidental boo-boo style mistakes can happen ..... |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 04/04/17 at 13:17:12 Interesting Oldfeller, you brought up a couple angles which I never considered. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/04/17 at 18:53:35 When Warren Oil and its bottling distributor brothers bottle everybody's oil for them regionally to cut down on shipping costs per case, well then them ugly accidental boo-boo style mistakes can happen ..... Hmmm, boy,, wouldn't it just suck to accidentally dump some high dollar, next to zer viscosity crap in there with all the worlds bet friction modifiers in it? |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/08/17 at 19:55:50 Ford Motor Company has finally stated THEY WILL NOT APPROVE CK-4 rated oils for use in their new diesel engines unless it also carries (and contains the add packages) full, current CJ-4 ratings from the old CJ-4 requirements. This has caused oil makers to HAVE TO EXCLUDE GASOLINE ENGINES from bottle approvals on the few new CK-4 oils that are CJ-4 rated as well. Rotella T-6 meets both gas and diesel specs, for both CJ-4 and CK-4 and as such it really hasn't changed much. It really is that good. Dino Rotella T-4 is a mystery still, one that hasn't been answered totally yet. BEWARE POSTERS SAYING "Shell told me ...." as Shell's phone people are likely talking only T-6 answers at the moment as Ford has approved T-6 and all is well with that product. Dino Rotella comes in 15w40 and 10w30 grades now, both are unknowns internally and FORD WILL NOT APPROVE the 10w30 version ever, with the 15w40 still being "unknown" at this time. Expect Trump to get involved soon as "over-regulating" motor oil to the point Ford won't use it is exactly what gross over-regulation means to Trump. We also get the drift that these standards really aren't finalized yet and that Ford doesn't accept them. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/08/17 at 21:27:23 Ford may be concerned about the catalytic converter more than anything. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/09/17 at 06:37:01 No, Justin, this is the result of full motor life test showing excessive wear on the BIG Ford diesel engines (not much cat converter action involved here). CK-4 rated 10w30 diesel has wimped down on the good additives too far and FORD has called them on it. What happens now is anybody's guess. We are running blind, but I would certainly follow the bump table for Dino or Synthetic Rotella products to make sure you get at least close to a good mix. Once again, we cannot adjust the bump table until we have data to do it with. We do know TO STAY AWAY FROM CK-4 RATED 10w30 ROTELLA T-4 DINO OIL firstly because it is simply the wrong weight for our bike and second Ford testing showed CK-4 10w30 to be sub-optimal in engine testing. Such failed oils should lose their HDEO rating as they are no longer generic "do anything oils" any more. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Papa Bear on 04/09/17 at 10:07:07 Some good reading re: Ford's diesel oils and the low(er) phosphor content on some diesel/gas oils. The ones Ford recommends are not limited to 800ppm phosphorous . https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/main/additionalinfo/Ford%20Motor%20Company%20CK-4%20FA-4%20Position%20Statement.pdf https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/main/additionalinfo/dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/09/17 at 14:59:21 183B3331323B3B3225570 wrote:
Thank you so much.. I'll get some gallons and treat them. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 04/10/17 at 04:27:58 00232B292A23232A3D4F0 wrote:
What's wrong with 10w30? I accidentally picked some up they other day? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Papa Bear on 04/10/17 at 05:08:46 Some 10W-30 is "passenger car" rated oil and restricted to 800 ppm phosphorous. You have to check rating. Most 10W-40 is HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oil- diesel) and is not restricted. The list here https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/main/additionalinfo/dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf shows the good diesel but you have to look at the label of the can you are selecting on the shelf. Is it rated SN? Is it rated "energy conserving" etc. Some are restricted - some aren't. My whole stash of Rotella T 15W-40 is older CL-SM which is good. I wouldn't use 10W-30 in either of my bikes |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/10/17 at 05:23:13 697E78747B6B190 wrote:
What's wrong with 10w30? I accidentally picked some up they other day? Best regards,[/quote] :P Valve tappet follower and cam lobe "slow death in a bottle" ...... Take it back and swap it for the right weight stuff and then bump that with one (1) ounce of Redline ZDDP Booster in each gallon of Rotella 5w40 T-6 full synthetic or Rotella 15w40 T-4 dino oil. Shake the Redline concentrate very very well before pouring it and shake the treated gallon before pouring from that. (ZDDP likes to settle out of oil until it heat bonds to all the metal in the engine, it does) http://https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41V1E3%2Bk25L.jpg |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Papa Bear on 04/10/17 at 05:30:22 A good thread here about new Rotella "C" and "S" rated oils. Simply put, for us, C is good and S is bad. https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4359262/1 As always, a UOA and VOA verifies the truth. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/10/17 at 05:42:23 I'd delete it as mis-information at this point ..... Hearing car guys blither on to each other about using Rotella 10w30 dino and Rotella 5w30 synthetic oils in their cars only serves to confuse the heck out of the people here on the Savage site, us Savagers that uses Rotella HDEO 5w40 Full Synthetic T-6 or Rotella HDEO 15w40 dino T-4 in our Savage engines. We don't use the lighter weight car stuff, ever. We use a HDEO diesel type oil that carries multi-engine ratings. Personally, I wish they had left the Rotella name alone, only applying it to the original class of HDEO oils, as spreading the Rotella brand name out over multiple engine classes and uses including small diesel cars is going to allow casual purchasers shopping at Walmart to damage some of their stuff accidentally, I do believe. Start out with the right weight oil, as the discussions all vary past that point .... and some of us are old enough to confuse easier than we use to. ::) me too to issues both up and down ... and yeah, guys everywhere are getting real frustrated with all this CK secrecy BS, aren't they ?? |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 04/10/17 at 06:04:59 51727A787B72727B6C1E0 wrote:
What's wrong with 10w30? I accidentally picked some up they other day? Best regards,[/quote] :P Valve tappet follower and cam lobe "slow death in a bottle" ...... Take it back and swap it for the right weight stuff and then bump that with one (1) ounce of Redline ZDDP Booster in each gallon of Rotella 5w40 T-6 full synthetic or Rotella 15w40 T-4 dino oil. Shake the Redline concentrate very very well before pouring it and shake the treated gallon before pouring from that. (ZDDP likes to settle out of oil until it heat bonds to all the metal in the engine, it does) http://https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41V1E3%2Bk25L.jpg [/quote] Sorry, perhaps I don't understand. Is it the weight of the oil, the contents, or both. Incidentally, I have some Eastwood ZDDP that I can add. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/10/17 at 06:16:08 Both. Start out by finding the right weight of Rotella then make sure the jug looks like this: http://https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/6a7c1228-a220-468d-a838-6447dd433531_1.bbddf786129141a43c848a29acaebc7f.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF or this: http://https://ll-us-i5.wal.co/asr/0ee494d1-c53f-43d8-9d3d-f975adce9095_1.87cc071a4be8e39ba747b90c30319a9e.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF Each has a wrong weight twin out there on the shelf to fool you .... so don't get fooled. And yes, you should bump both of them lightly according to the bump table in the Tech Section. Your Eastwood ZDDP is more concentrated than Redline and it bumps differently (and it is pure hell to get stirred up properly too as it is almost solid ZDDP with just a little carrier oil mixed in) |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 04/10/17 at 06:21:52 It is "both"....or maybe "neither". The oil chart in the Suzuki manual shows that 10W-30 oil can be used within the temperatures shown on the chart (-4F to 86F), and you can find "special" oil in that viscosity range that do have a high level of ZDDP - but those are not the 10W-30 oils found on auto parts or big box store shelves. Most 10W-30 oils on store shelves will have a reduced ZDDP level....as they are marketed and used in cars with fuel injection and catalytic converters. PG: Use the 10W-30 in your car or lawn mower......it won't damage them like it will your Savage. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/10/17 at 06:35:22 Hey, toss some 600-800 ZDDP PPM dino 10w30 into a Savage and take it on up to the mountains, let it get toasty hot and see the thinned 10w30 jest fly out the exhaust pipe, right on past those generous piston fitting tolerances. ticky ticky ticky sez the increasing tappet clearances due to rapid tappet/cam lobe wear We can try that as an experiment next mountain trip, or mebbe Versy can just share his experiences using thinner/different oils during that one hot summer like when we did the last big oil war. I think our goal should be to be pointing out the BEST Savage Choices and sticking with it -- otherwise we are just chatting along offering no clear direction to the BEST Choices. ======================================= With Ford cranking down on the CK rating by refusing it, the flow of volunteer aftermarket VOA testing will choke down to zero until that controversy gets all settled out. Or until Shell notices their sales dropping off to those brands who do offer up full VOA data about their new marketing packages. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 04/10/17 at 09:40:26 If you ride all winter, and when the temperature is consistently not "summerlike" - it would be fine to run a "good" 10W-30 oil. The problem is that finding a good 10W-30 oil is not easy. To get high ZDDP levels you would have to find a racing oil - but those generally are made to dump out after the race, and they don't have the detergents and other additives that you need for continued use. You could also look around and find an oil that is specifically blended to use in older equipment - and that is a specialty market and the price reflects that. Before I learned that Rotella is affordable and a great oil - I was using Brad Penn oil (now called Penngrade). It has all the good stuff - but it is about $9.00 a quart and it requires an hour round trip for me to visit the machine shop that retails it in this area. http://www.penngrade.com/dfba2c3b5a_sites/penngrade.com/files/7126-7150-7144-7158-7419_PG1_MultiGrade_HP_Oils.pdf |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Papa Bear on 04/10/17 at 13:26:03 Dave, When did American Refining Group in Bradford, PA stop marketing "Brad Pen" and D-A Lubrication Company of Lebanon, IN take it over? |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 04/10/17 at 13:45:49 22232C2D2E2F28292A1B0 wrote:
I dunno'.....I discovered it about 6 months ago. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by pg on 04/10/17 at 16:58:00 Thanks for your insight Oldfeller & Dave. [smiley=thumbup.gif] Best regards, |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Kris01 on 04/10/17 at 18:48:42 For an air cooled engine, you'll want to use a thicker weight oil for the added protection. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Dave on 04/11/17 at 03:56:27 5B6279632021100 wrote:
Up to a point.....then it can get too thick. Verslagen did some tests......and he found that engine temps went up with 20W-50 oil. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/11/17 at 04:13:43 10w30 is too thin, our piston clearances are too large and our required film pressures on our cam lobes are way too high to use this oil at the current wimpy car additive specifications. 20w50 is so thick it doesn't conduct heat way from the head as well as thinner oils do. It is slow to pick the heat up, and slow to dump it out the casings in the sump area. It runs the engine 15-20 degrees hotter than a 40 weight oil would do. The 10w40 class of oils is the best "thermal conductive" fit for our bike's engine, and the Savage curiously was designed around 10w40 oils in all of its early testing. Because we cannot get oil additive levels like what the bike was designed for any more due to API rules changing, we substitute the nearest available "economically affordable" oils, which are the Xw40 HDEO oils that are used in diesel engines and have much closer amounts of ZDDP to what we need. We still have to bump, but not as much Redline is needed as if we had started from a car oil. Do you remember 20w40 motor oil? You do if you had an older Yamaha, as they were designed to use that somewhat stranger weight of oil. They too use Rotella now as it is the closest fit for weight and required additives that exists currently. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Buster on 04/11/17 at 19:01:33 Not sure what kind of "bulk" oil the dealer used for my 600 mile service, but I did add a bit of Redline ZDDP booster when I got the bike back home. Just did the 2nd service this past weekend, using Motul 3000 10w40. I plan on doing a UOA eventually, but maybe not on this oil change. If the analysis shows good results, I will probably continue to use Motul oil. Especially since Zinc level is 1400 ppm right out of the bottle. |
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Title: Re: The new Rotella's - Zddp been verified? Post by Oldfeller on 04/12/17 at 19:56:07 https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4359102/The_new_Rotella_T5_and_T6_no_l#Post4359102 Here is an 8 page thread of pure angry confusion over what API and EPA has just done to America. New News .... The new Trump assigned head of EPA has just requested 24 hour security personnel be assigned to protect his body because he is getting ready to clean house over in the EPA. http://https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2017/03/full-48184-5812-portfolio_rotella.jpeg We want the first bottle or the last bottle, and NONE of the other bottles ..... |
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