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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1486063480 Message started by philthymike on 02/02/17 at 11:24:40 |
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Title: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/02/17 at 11:24:40 To recap, phase 1 consisted of the following mod work to my LS650 Replaced and relocated rear turn signal and brake light. Added Dyna muff added one size up on main jet replaced stock shocks with progressive 412 Added Stage 2 cam Added 666cc big bore kit Replaced stock headlight with brighter flashy looking aftermarket unit. Assessment after 1 month riding the bike with these improvements. I'm happy with the extra power and the spread of the powerband the engine gives now. The ride has improved hugely both in overall handling and dealing with rough or wet surfaces. I no longer have to ride around with my high-beam on after dark. The low beam is plenty bright now. conversely my new high beam is somewhat weaker and more limited in width compared to the original. This has much to do with the box like shape of the new headlight and proves to be of little bother as I rarely need the high beam anyways. So I'm on to planning the next phase of upgrades for Thumpy. With so many complaints rectified I find fewer things are required to make the bike more to my liking. One exception is brakes - which was an original complaint. I need to address this. So the 1st item on this list is the Ryca big brake kit. Folks here have mentioned long-term reliability improvements concerning the cam chain. This was gone over thoroughly and found to be in spec with Suzuki's recommendations. However, with all of the money invested so far (roughly $900) I can't help but think some more peace of mind won't hurt at all. So a versy is going on this list. The stiffer shocks make the low speed riding a bit rougher so I am considering some improvement with the seat. Suggestions welcomed here. I notice the cost of new seats OEM or aftermarket is alot to swallow so homemade remedies would be great. Out of idle speculation and because I'm not one to leave things well enough alone, what gains can I expect from exhaust port massaging, a 2" header and a high flow air filter? I've currently got the stock header, carb, airbox and filter. Or should I just leave the engine alone now that I'm happier with it? Any other ideas for making the bike an all around better bike to ride? |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by LANCER on 02/02/17 at 14:43:46 The front suspension mod is a great companion to the front break upgrade. The cost is about $300 if I remember right; $110 for the Race Tech Gold Emulators and another $125 for a new set of Race Tech linear rate springs, plus a few odds and ends. "Gary in NJ" is the member who came up with the design and posted detailed instructions of what is needed and how to proceed. Suspension and braking are life saving systems! [ch128521] A Performance Carburetor Kit will add more fun ! [ch128526] |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by batman on 02/02/17 at 15:12:23 2" header sounds a bit large,1 1/2" is what's generally used,to large a pipe will allow the exhaust gas and revision waves to slow down and hurt your power at higher rpm(the gases cool to quickly) ......I'd look at Oldfellow's air filter in the Tech Section if you still have your stock air box as a cheap,and easy course to a very good Hi-pro filter. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by LANCER on 02/02/17 at 15:36:23 I agree about the header, 2" is just too big. I run a 1.75" OD, which has a 1.65" ID, and that is with a fully modified engine. I would strongly suggest a 1 5/8" OD/ 1.5" ID header for a stock to mildly modified engine. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/02/17 at 19:01:32 Hey batman thanks for the tip with Oldfellows filter. It's easy and inexpensive. Lancer, with the carb change I'm worried about losing the street ability of the bike. For example, when I raced hare scrambles on trikes I got a race carb for my ATC200X and regretted it every time I hit the woods because it was too jumpy + grabby for that kind of riding. It would have been great on a dirt track but I never rode those. It was an expensive lesson for me at the time working a summer job to pay for it too. My worry is a racing carb is going to make my bike a pain to negotiate city traffic with. I realize my stock carb is a bit sluggish but this helps with city drivability. Correct me if I'm wrong. Performance carbs just improve throttle response and not overall horsepower? I ask because that was what i noticed back with the 200x. It snapped and grabbed like mad but really didn't seem to have any more power... Ok so 2" bad, 1.5" good. So why does Mac Performance sell this item? http://shop.macperformance.com/Suzuki-Savage-Boulevard-650-1986-2016-2-Headpipe-w-muffler-MAC-RC-S40B.htm If 2" is too big shouldn't they know that? |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by batman on 02/03/17 at 04:26:16 Here's why, a large pipe has more surface area ,and so the exhaust flow and the sonic waves slow down . the waves reverse at a point 1/2 the dia. of the pipe and move back up it as a negative wave,if they arrive at the exhaust valve before it closes they help pull the remaining exhaust gases from the cylinder as well as pulling a fresh charge of fuel and air in ,due to valve overlap.This increases VE (volumetric efficiency)=HP.With a header that is to large the wave tends to arrive at the exhaust valve to find it closed,because the gases cooling slow the flow of the wave in both directions ,so the 1.5 " header would be ideal for you ,but the stock header ,would still make the bike run better than one oversized,the wave might arrive a bit early,but it's still better than to late! Just because a 2" header is offered doesn't mean that's it's right for your setup.It is possible that the mac header is shorter for it being oversize ,and/ or their muffler designed to compensate......PS I just looked at the Mac site and the 2" header pipe is double walled,but they don't give info on the inside dia. (I'm betting on 1.5") |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by Dave on 02/03/17 at 05:17:59 I ran the stock carb for a year with my modified engine, and then installed one of Lancers VM36 carb kits. The engine did not become jumpy or jerky - but the throttle response was quicker and a bit different. When I first put it on I was trying to hold 60mph exactly so I could calibrate the Vapor Trail Tech speedometer while using the GPS to hold a steady 60 mph. It was very hard to hold the speed at exactly 60, and the speed would drop to 59 or jump up to 61......but I never tried that with the stock carb and it might also be difficult to hold the speed at exactly 60 on the GPS....it could be that the GPS was jumpy and the bike speed wasn't? The VM36 doesn't turn the bike into a race bike - but it does require that you become a bit better rider to use it smoothly. The stock carb has a vacuum operated slide, and if you suddenly "wack open" the throttle the vacuum in the venturi will drop suddenly, and the CV carb drops the slide and allows the vacuum to build and the engine will accelerate smoothly....and this is what causes the small delay in the movement of your wrist vs. the response from the engine. With the VM carb you should "roll open" the throttle at a bit slower rate and allow the vacuum to remain consistent as you accelerate......it may only take a second to go from idle to full throttle, and after riding it for a while it will become instinct. The other place that you need to learn to use your wrist is when you are decelerating or accelerating and shifting - you don't want to snap the throttle all the way closed.....or you will get a backfire (or a lot of them). Just roll the throttle toward the closed position part way, and there will be little or no backfire. When you allow the throttle to close completely the only fuel to the engine is coming from the idle circuit, and the mixture goes very lean....and the exhaust gets noisy. You can easily control this by just opening the throttle up a tiny bit.......that is what the TEV valve on the stock CV carb is supposed to do - you just have to do it manually by rolling on a tiny bit of throttle. If you want noisy while you are decelerating you just close the throttle....if you want to be more peaceful you just open up a bit of throttle until the noise goes away......after a bit of riding with your new VM carb this all becomes instinct and is part of the fun of riding this big, primitive single. I like my VM carb, and it is a worthwhile upgrade - but I made so many changes at the same time I really can't say for sure that it makes the bike quicker or give a higher top speed....but it does make the engine more responsive and it gives you more control over the way the engine is running. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/03/17 at 12:29:41 @batman - thanks for the explanation. That clears things up for me. It's a wonder that suppliers of performance parts don't put more thorough specs for their products online. seems to me that doing so might reduce returned orders. @Dave When you installed the VM36 did you find that your powerband had taken yet another curve than with the stock carb? If so can you please describe the difference? One concern of mine is to not make the powerband too toppy. This was another issue I had with my old 200X after I added all the mods to it. suddenly all of my two stroke riding friends liked it but I found it less tractible for trails and such. I'm fairly happy with Thumpy's powerband now. It's a good even spread with a ton of torque up top and middle that almost pulls my arms out of their sockets when I lay on it. It isn't perfect everywhere I ride but it's almost optimal for city and suburban riding as well as backroads. the head porting would noticably change the powerband too from what I've read. Having never done this to an engine before I'm curious what the effect of it is. Anybody care to relate the changes they discovered after cleaning up the exhaust port on their bike? |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/03/17 at 12:44:47 5459565B5D4A0A0F380 wrote:
Lancer I looked at Gary in NJ's thread about this and it looks as though he's focused on a Ryca conversion type deal. Those have lowered front ends don't they? Are his mods even applicable to a normal LS650? |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by ohiomoto on 02/03/17 at 17:57:41 Gary's mods are for full travel forks. He just raised the tubes in the (not stock) triple clamps. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/04/17 at 16:03:28 495150554D51405450525C390 wrote:
As it says in the thread, the mod is for all LS650's. Just disregard the instructions for modifying/making a new upper t-clamp. Given the rake of a stock LS, I would still drill the low speed compression holes in the GVE as described in the thread. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/08/17 at 07:55:26 Thanks Gary in NJ. There's alot of useful detail in your thread, I will read it more closely. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/09/17 at 05:11:02 One thing that has been nagging me is now confirmed to not be my imagination. I paid close attention to it riding to work and back yesterday. When cruising along in 3rd and then rolling the throttle all the way open the engine revs up as expected but for a full one, one thousand there is no increase in speed. In the following second the bike starts to accelerate but not at a rate that corresponds to revs - lagging. By the 3rd second it begins to pull like a 2 stroke dirt bike and I have to hang on tight. Is this from clutch slippage? If so what are my options here? |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by Dave on 02/09/17 at 05:32:25 That sure sounds like the clutch is slipping. What kind of oil are you using? Do you let the clutch out fully before applying throttle? When I first got my bike I noticed a similar slippage.....I have no idea what oil the previous owner used. I took the clutch apart and cleaned the plates in solvent, then put a piece of 360 grit sandpaper on a glass plate, and scuffed the fiber plates to remove the glaze, then cleaned them in solvent and let them dry. For the metal places I cleaned them and used a Scotchbrite pad to lightly scuff the surface, and then washed them and let them dry. I then lightly oiled everything and put it back together. Before you put the cover back on check how far the clutch rod extends out of the clutch basket....Verslagen can tell you how far the rod should extend for best clutch operations (I believe it is 12mm but I am not sure). After I did this and started using Rotella T oil I never had any more slippage. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/17 at 07:08:16 Between 12 and 12.5mm works for me. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/09/17 at 07:31:39 I'm not sure what oil the mechanic who did my engine work used. I'll give him a call about that. Most of the time I let the clutch out before hitting the gas unless I'm trying to overtake cars on the highway and such. But the scenario I described happens when I'm already cruising along not even using the cluctch. It happens in 4th gear too but the lag time is shorter by roughly half. Does it damage the clutch when it slips? How long would you say it takes to take it apart and remove the glazing as described? Is it something I can do in my driveway or do I need to be in a cleaner shop environment? Does this require special tools? |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by Dave on 02/09/17 at 09:31:05 Find out what oil is in the bike....if it is a car oil with friction modifiers....that is what is causing the clutch slip. You might have some luck if you change the oil and use a proper oil like Rotella T. Does it hurt to have a slipping clutch - it isn't a great thing to have happen, and likely the more you ride it the worse it will get. Eventually things will wear out and require the replacement of clutch discs - which isn't all that cheap. How long does it take to remove and clean the clutch discs.....I have no idea of your ability or what is in your shop. I could get it done in a couple of hours and I would have a clutch cover gasket on hand in case that tears when you take things apart. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/09/17 at 11:09:24 Ok thanks! Weather permitting I'll change the oil to Rotella T this weekend and see if that eliminates the slipping. I'm pretty mechanically inclined and worked on my own bikes back in my off-road days. At the moment I don't have a garage to use although that might be changing in a few months. As for tools I have most of the basics covered at best. In the mean time I will refrain from the activities that cause the slipping. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 02/18/17 at 13:50:41 The Rotella did the trick! No more slipping. Thanks for the lookout! |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by Dave on 02/19/17 at 05:21:16 This is not intended as an "I told you so" - but as a inquiry as to how the older folks on this forum can be better at "informing" new members about the care and feeding of the Savage - so that they don't have to learn this stuff on their own. It is really important that you use the right oil in the Savage. Not enough ZDDP and you get cam/rocker failure - not a high enough idle speed and you get cam bearing failure - oil with friction modifiers and you get clutch slippage - not changing your petcock to a manual can get your stranded somewhere, or a crankcase and/or airbox full of gasoline - not checking your cam chain tensioner can get you total engine failure! The senior members of this forum have many years and hundreds of thousands of miles of experience with this bike....if not personally the experience comes from the tales of the forum members who have experienced issues and reported them on this forum. We have attempted to give good advice in threads like the one listed below - but somehow they just don't seem to get the job done. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1366651397 |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by philthymike on 05/01/17 at 20:07:14 Alright so now that I've eliminated the expense of prettiness from the equation I can focus on functionality. And having another bike to ride that is good for commuting and long trips I no longer have to be concerned with practicality of my S40. In fact I am enjoying my Thumpy more than ever now that I'm not worried about matters of practicality. Now I just want it to be more fun, and safer. It doesn't have to go on long trips or commute me through road rage hell on moon cratered highways each and every day. So safety 1st!: 1. Look Ma no brakes! I'll be fixing this with the Ryca brake kit and better brake line. 2. Better tires. That back Kenda is absolute garbage and has to go away. I ride on a lot of heavily grooved surfaces so I'll be focusing on tires with good performance on that as well as wet roads. 3. Fork brace. The bigger rear shocks helped the steering considerably making the bike handle better on twists. Now I ride it much harder as a result but something still feels wrong when i push it really hard. I'm guessing it's fork flex. I'm still trying to grasp the concept enough to test for it... Any more safety suggestions? Engine stuff: 1. The cam chain tensioner 2. I've been doing my homework (mostly in here) and have changed my mind about the carburetor. In fact I'm going to focus on the entire flow side of things including air filter, exhaust port and header pipe. I'll be bugging folks for more specifics with all of this once I've digested all of the sources I've searched up in here so far. I no longer need to worry about how the engine performs in stop and go traffic or be concerned with gas mileage or other practical concerns. I just want more fun! Thumpy is to be a hot rod from now on. All practical concerns fall on my other bike from here on out. Ah but yes there is the other bike and its expenses, as well as my better half's bike too. So I need to rethink the financial timelines for this. Obviously all of the above is going to take much longer to implement now. So one step at a time, and plan those steps out. |
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Title: Re: Phase 2 Mod Plan for Thumpy Post by jasbmo on 05/02/17 at 23:30:24 756D6C69716D7C686C6E60050 wrote:
The advice from the veterans is invaluable! |
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