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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1485126144 Message started by Ruttly on 01/22/17 at 15:02:24 |
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Title: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/22/17 at 15:02:24 Has anyone removed the spring on a Progressive 444 shock ? Or is this better off done by Progressive ? It has a solid spring keeper with no groove to remove it. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by verslagen1 on 01/22/17 at 16:25:50 I haven't messed with progressives, but the stock and intruder shocks are like this. http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s53/Cabber_photos/Picture9136.jpg You have to compress the springs to get access to the locknut, then the top unscrews. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1186949485 |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Dave on 01/22/17 at 17:01:54 I have removed the springs from my Progressive 412's....the top plate has a slot that you can slide off sideways once you have compressed the springs. I made a puller that pulls on the top eyelet and pushes down on the spring. For the ones you describe...you may have to use a spring compressor that pulls from the bottom. Dave |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/22/17 at 17:44:25 I think you guys are right ! I really don't want to scratch these $$$ shocks. These springs must be for a sportster or somebody that weighs considerably more than I do. Well the bike is getting seat made & paint work done next month(I Hope) maybe I'll just ship them to Progressive and have them put the next lighter springs on them. Other than putting some sticky tires on it I'm trying to put the finished stamp on this project no later than May ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/22/17 at 17:56:48 Tell them what you weigh, Sure would suck to learn the Next lightest Are ten pounds less. Might wanna figure out what you have. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/22/17 at 18:13:13 Yeah bike weight plus my fat azz and see what they say. It's just a little to stiff for my liking. The seat will be a nice & welcome addition . ;D |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/22/17 at 18:22:19 Do the seat and see? |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/22/17 at 18:56:52 Think I just might do that JOG |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Dave on 01/23/17 at 05:22:56 According to Gary_in_NJ.....the damping in the Progressive shocks might be too stiff for our light bike. Changing to lighter springs might not change the ride much. I did the same thing on my Progressive 412 shocks that are for a Sportster......and I went to the lightest spring they make. The ride is a little better - but certainly not cushy. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/23/17 at 06:29:14 417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:
The only data I could find on Progressive's website says that: "444 Series shocks are available in 2 configurations: Standard (Up to 250 lbs.) and Heavy-duty (250+ lbs.)" I have no idea what this means. What is the 250 lbs. relative to; the rider, the weight of the bike at the rear axle? If it's the rider, certainly the requirements for a 150-170 lbs rider are different than the requirements for a 220-250 lbs rider. Why doesn't this spec take into consideration the sprung weight of the bike itself? Ruttly, I believe that your bike is modified and has a significantly lighter rear and the front:rear weight distribution has been moved forward. For your reference, my bike is running 80-100 lb-in dual-rate springs. If you are having the springs changed, you might as well make sure that the damping (valving) is correct for the springs and expected rate of movement. If the damping has been set for a 500 lb Harley, the damping will be too firm (slow to react in both directions) for your modified 300 pound LS650. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by verslagen1 on 01/23/17 at 07:08:41 I haven't looked at any of the new catalogs, but the old ones listed all of the different models and spring rates for each one. 243720213E3335373C63520 wrote:
If I remember correctly, the spring p/n ends with 1313. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Kenny G on 01/23/17 at 07:25:07 Verslagen, With the 11" shocks how much modification is required for the belt to tension correctly? What else needs changed to use the 11" shock? Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by hotrod on 01/23/17 at 09:01:31 Don't hesitate in calling Progressive directly . They are usually very helpful on the phone, and have all the bushings you may need. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by verslagen1 on 01/23/17 at 09:27:16 7D5358754457455E360 wrote:
It only changes the height by a 1/4" and likely disappears when you sit down. You'll have to check to your own satisfaction, but I didn't change a thing. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by philthymike on 01/23/17 at 09:41:06 7C5259744556445F370 wrote:
I put 11" progressives on and the difference isn't much. The back tire is still within the rear fender. Belt, belt guard and bolt clearance is fine. Mine are stiff so I don't get very much change when I sit on it. the most noticable difference in handling is in wet weather the extra weight on the front wheel makes a big improvement. As for the ride it's like mentioned above, the bike can eat wholesale moon craters on the highway now. At low speeds it's not as cushy as before. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/23/17 at 10:19:32 Thanks GaryNJ I will be calling them about that valving & the springs ! Versy when you get a minute could you double check that spring number ! I'm pretty sure mine has a different number I will check when I get home! Thanks to everyone for the info Info about the shocks kinda vague on their website , vague to me anyways |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by hotrod on 01/23/17 at 16:37:29 Years ago I put Progressive shocks , made for a Harley, on a 1977 Moto Guzzi Convert. Thought it would work but the shocks never moved unless I had a passenger . The word HARLEY means something totally different as it is set up from Progressive. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/23/17 at 17:43:44 Oh mine move and I like stiff rear shocks but these springs need to give just alittle bit more ! Ya never know I may not like the lighter springs if it affects the front end adversely! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/23/17 at 18:20:49 Versy , The numbers on my springs are 1367 90/130 , I just know they are stiff , but I know nothing and I am clueless about suspension ! ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/23/17 at 18:25:02 90/130 indicates it's a dual rate progressive spring with rates of 90 and 130 lb-in. Way too much spring. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/23/17 at 18:43:58 I have a set of Progressive shocks on my sportster with the aluminum bodies and adjustable rebound and the preload is set on lightest setting and they are kinda stiff but the Harley needs that ! It handles well for what it is. The RYCA handles very well but when pushing it hard in corner I get a tiny bit of pushing with front end which could be the stiff shocks , but most likely the dual purpose tires but that's going into a turn waay too fast and being on the edge of control. Ridden normally ya know just kinda fast , I have no complaints , rides like its on a rail. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/23/17 at 18:50:07 Gary , That's exactly what my butt and lower back have been telling me. Do you have a recommendation for a suitable spring rate , bike 308 lbs , fat azz 180 lbs , ball park figure is fine ! Remember I like it somewhat stiff |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by verslagen1 on 01/23/17 at 19:21:02 All 11" shock p/n spring p/n rate travel 412-4005 03-1310B/C 90/130 2.02 412-4233 03-1313-30 115/155 2.02 440-4022 03-1313-20B/C 115/155 2.22 For my... broad shoulders, 115/155 is just right. I had the 4005's on the 5th preset and it wasn't enough. The 4022 has threaded preset, I assumed it was on low when I got it, haven't adjusted it ever. remember, the shocks sit at an angle. this will increase the force they see by about 1.4 |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Kenny G on 01/23/17 at 20:37:54 Progressive 11" shocks will be my next project. I weigh 170 LB, what should I ask for when calling Progressive?.... Thanks Verslagen & Mike for the input. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/24/17 at 05:29:39 416667677F6A130 wrote:
80/100 will work well. The stiffness comes from the damping. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/24/17 at 05:32:45 2A392E2F303D3B39326D5C0 wrote:
Wasn't enough what? Spring? Preload (too much sag)? "Firmness" is more a function of damping then spring rate. The preload adjuster doesn't change the rate of the spring, it adjusts the sag. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/17 at 07:50:51 6E64606A61686C653B3D39090 wrote:
Wasn't enough what? Spring? Preload (too much sag)? "Firmness" is more a function of damping then spring rate. The preload adjuster doesn't change the rate of the spring, it adjusts the sag.[/quote] My hip pockets were dragging and my butt was bouncing off the stops. And as you noted earlier, these are progressive springs, increasing the preload, increases the bottom spring rate. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/24/17 at 08:15:37 392A3D3C232E282A217E4F0 wrote:
Too much sag = not enough spring. BTW, Ruttly's bike is probably 60-70pounds lighter than a typical LS, with a large portion of that weight loss over the rear axle. His spring requirements are different than a stock bike and vastly different than one that has been dressed up. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/17 at 08:45:17 Scrap yard scales. Weigh the bike, weigh the rear, weigh it enough ways to know What load the shocks see. Otherwise you are guessing and shooting in the dark,,well, with a night lite, |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/26/17 at 06:43:26 It must be the cheap scale I'm using , different weight every time I weigh it. Anyways about 310 lbs , front 148 , rear 162 lbs . Gonna call Progressive today and find out what up ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/26/17 at 09:38:06 7D5A5B5B43562F0 wrote:
Your numbers are very close to mine. I also have the figures for Dave's cafe racer and while the weight is slightly higher, the weight distribution is the same between all three of our bikes ~ 47:53 f:r |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/26/17 at 10:18:06 I cut as much weight as I could but had to put a chain tensioner on it and a bigger horn/loud horn and I think that big brake weighs more than stocker ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/26/17 at 12:02:40 Is 47/53 good ? What is best 50/50 ? |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/26/17 at 13:17:55 082F2E2E36235A0 wrote:
I don't think there is a "good" value or specific target. Most modern sport bikes are biased so that 51-53% of the weight is on the front axle. With a rider on board it even-out to 50:50. With the forward lean required to reach my clip-ons, I'm assuming that the weight distribution is somewhere around 50:50. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/26/17 at 19:50:54 I would guess those numbers are all ok probably till you hit 40/60 or 60/40 and even then would be ok for an average rider who obeys the laws and/or speed limit ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/26/17 at 20:22:15 Called Progressive today , my shocks were made for large Honda & large Kawasaki not a sportster. Only one other spring option that will fit them , a 75/125 . When I asked if they would change springs for me he said no they would only install springs that the shock comes with but he would sell me the other springs. And then explained that there are many reasons they are so stiff like they are on the Wrong bike,weight,shock angles , length of swingarm , a very informative phone call. Springs 26 each + shipping , spring compressor 37 + shipping , is it worth it ? |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/27/17 at 05:27:00 1F38393921344D0 wrote:
It depends. Like I explained earlier, those shock are valved (dampened) for forces that you and your bike will not generate, or generate at the wrong time or wrong part of the stroke. As a result, the ride will always be busy and firm...perhaps painfully firm. Given that Progressive wont even respring the shocks for you, I doubt that they will revalve them. If you can find someone to revalve them - usually a $150+ charge - it could be worth it. The springs will cost you (with the tool and shipping) $100 and the revalving will cost you $150+...add that to what you paid for the shocks and ask yourself if its worth it. If you can't get the shocks revalved/rebuilt, then no, its not worth it. If you can get the shocks revalved, then don't buy the spring compressor because whomever rebuilds the shocks can install the new springs. Dave, how much did you pay for your gas emulsion shocks? I'm sure it was less then $200. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Dave on 01/27/17 at 06:14:13 I paid $ 69.29 with shipping from China.....the price seems to have gone up a bit on them. Current prices are in the $ 79.99 to $ 89,99 range. http://www.ebay.com/itm/112188166961?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT http://www.ebay.com/itm/170901783630?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I had the shocks mailed directly to Chris Livengood at CL MotoTech to get them set up properly, as the "rumor" is the shocks are made pretty well - but are not filled with oil or charged consistently (and he has even found some where the charging passages were not drilled). The cost to rebuild them was $ 95, and I also had them install the spherical ball ends at a cost of $ 105. I noticed that on my Cafe' bike the rear axle is resistant to any "initial" movement, and the shocks did not want to move initially - Chris agreed the spherical ends help to allow the shocks to respond as the friction on the ends is reduced. Shipping to me was $15.....so in total I have $ 284.29 invested. I have not yet got them mounted on the bike or ridden on them.......spring will be here soon and I will be able to try them out. It could be that the shocks as delivered from the factory might be OK....if you are lucky and get a good pair. You could also not spend the money on the spherical ball ends - I did as I noticed how much smoother the rear of my other bikes are...they are both monoshock bikes with bearings in the linkage. As I stated previously in this thread.....lighter springs helped - but did not make the ride good - the damping is most likely still too stiff for my Cafe' bike. 417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/27/17 at 06:55:06 I'm not looking for a cushy ride,just maybe a little more sag and with the preload set on light I have no adjustment left. I think I will try it and see. Besides a that I always wanted that spring compressor ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/27/17 at 07:01:51 Can you explain what ratings on the springs mean as in 90/130 75/125 Please and a upfront Tanx ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Dave on 01/27/17 at 07:37:04 This is from the Progressive web page: The spring is (for the most part) wound steel and is defined by its rate. Rate is a measurement of the force required to compress the spring and is expressed in lbs per inch. For instance a spring with a 100 lbs/inch rate will require 100 lbs to compress it one inch. Each subsequent inch of compression would require an additional 100lbs of force. This is referred to as a straight or linear rate spring. The alternative, is a progressive rate spring which allows a single spring to essentially exhibit multiple rates. By utilizing varied spacing spring coils, the initial rate may be 60lbs/inch, requiring 60 lbs of force to compress it one inch. Then each subsequent inch of movement would require progressively more than 60lbs of force such as 75lbs more for the second inch, 100lbs more for the third inch etc, as shown in the example. Progressive-rate springs become stiffer quicker as they are compressed. The advantage is a spring that is supple enough to soak up small bumps, yet firm enough to handle a big hit. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/17 at 07:53:56 The advantage is a spring that is supple enough to soak up small bumps, yet firm enough to handle a big hit. That deodorant commercial just popped into my head.. Strong enough for a man But made for a woman.. So, the Wire itself is the same diameter and rigidity throughout the spring, it's just coil spacing that changes the rate? That would change the angle of the pressure applied, I can see how that would work. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/27/17 at 08:24:47 Dave (with Progressive's help) nailed it. On a linked suspension (like a modern mono-shock) a progressive spring isn't necessary because the linkage provides the variable rate. On a direct suspension like is used on the LS650 (and KTM PDS system) a progressively wound spring is used for the purposes noted above; i.e. as the suspension compresses the resistance from the spring increases. I have an 80/100 rate spring on my cafe racer and it's a bit over sprung, but within a very usable range. Unless you weigh 230-250 pounds (and I know you don't) that 75/125 is going to be a bit too firm over surfaces that require long suspension travel. But given that your damping valving is WAY TOO FIRM, you're gonna get a jack-hammer ride from those shocks. How much did you pay for your 444's and how much could you get for them. Give this some consideration before you throw $100 at shocks that you may not like. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/27/17 at 12:00:31 Paid 450 they list for 652 , Ryca was having trouble getting shocks from Progressive at that time , they most likely sent them any 13" shock they had in stock. Maybe I will just add extra padding when I have the seat made , cause it handles really good. I'm still buying the tool found it for 32 + shipping! I'll just wait on the springs ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Kenny G on 01/27/17 at 13:05:36 I would like to replace the shocks on my 2013 S40 with the 11" Progressive shocks. I weigh 170LB, how do I determine what I need? Should I just call Progressive and tell them what the bike is and how much I weigh? How much should I expect to pay? Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/27/17 at 15:18:25 Yeah I would just call them. The 412 is what most here use , seems all their stuff is of a high quality. Have some adjustable ones on my sportster and I really like them ! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Kenny G on 01/27/17 at 17:51:11 Patrick, How much do you think I will be paying Progressive? Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/27/17 at 19:09:10 They start at 299 , just call them and tell them exactly what you want. Check out the website progressive suspension.com Top quality stuff |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/27/17 at 19:20:56 Thanks guys for everyone's input & info , I learned a few things. SS is a great forum , only made great by its members ! JOG you were right about the seat first !!!! |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/17 at 22:22:38 Twenty years ago, I wouldn't have seen it. |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/28/17 at 09:26:25 JOG , With age comes wisdom |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/28/17 at 09:31:10 Old Fart |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/28/17 at 10:22:57 7B5C5D5D4550290 wrote:
I have a pair of RYCA shocks I'll sell you cheap. As crappy as they are, they'd probably work better then the over sprung and over damped 444's |
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Title: Re: Changing springs on Progressive 444 shocks Post by Ruttly on 01/28/17 at 11:02:02 Crappy too soft shocks will affect the front end but I might try them ! |
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