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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Help after a fall /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1483493201 Message started by JDNewYork on 01/03/17 at 17:26:40 |
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Title: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/03/17 at 17:26:40 Hey all, have been riding 3 months now (as some of you know) and had my first accident today and laid my '99 down. Was a kind of perfect storm of issues...was driving in the city and got caught in a storm shower with no option to pull over and then a yellow taxi cut me up turning left from the far right lane. the combination of slippery road and an obstacle appearing in front of me was just too much...I squeezed the brakes to avoid hitting the cab and my old girl simply skidded, bucked and slid to a halt....the cab carried on driving. Amazingly my bike seems to have survived without a scratch, I think to be honest it was me that took most of the impact, luckily we were only traveling really slow (approx 10-15mph) and by the time the bike fell sideways we were almost at a complete stop and the bike landed on top of me! I am giving you this whole story as maybe it will aid if you do have a tip for the only 'issue' I did find. Once I got back home (the bike started right back up after pulling her to her wheels) when I was parking I noticed a little click click click noise. At first I thought maybe a fender had taken a bump and was lightly touching a tire...no, I pushed and pulled the bike around trying to find the source and i 'think' its coming from the belt. I have inspected the belt thoroughly as I can (without removing it) and I can't see any issue with it but you can feel a slight vibration run through it as you push the bike at walking speed with a really quiet click, click, click kinda sound. Looking for any ideas what it could be? Could it have been caused by the mild impact? Could it have been caused by running in super wet weather and be nothing to do with laying the bike down? Is it something completely different. Any help or advice would be hugely appreciated....everything seems to be running no worse than pre-accident....just wanna know I am not ignoring something that could be a bigger issue. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/03/17 at 18:30:05 People look at their cars more closely when they pick it up from the body shop after they a wreck than when they buy it. Are you Sure it's a new sound or are you Really hunting for damage? The belt has tall cogs that engage the pulleys. Is your belt a bit tight? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/03/17 at 18:41:44 2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 wrote:
This is so true brother, but this is definitely a new 'sound' I have ridden every day since passing my test and my routine is pretty much the same every day so I know that this sound is a newbie....whether it is nothing to worry about or not is another thing though. I would say that my belt is on the tighter side. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/03/17 at 18:56:53 I'd check the front pulley and adjust the belt and make sure of the rear wheel alignment. Such a low speed crash and You being the cushion the bike landed on, I don't know what the problem might be, The speed you're rolling it and the cadence of the click would be something I would use as I puzzled through. Put it in gear and gently rock it back and forth. If you hear that click, study the front pulley. That's a real hassle to fix if it gets much wear in it. I can't hear it. The time between clicks, are they evenly spaced, same loudness, I'm Trying to help, but I don't even have all the clues. You can get a friend to roll it and you can listen. Is it the same rolling bakkerds? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by batman on 01/03/17 at 19:00:51 If I push my bike out be fore starting it I always here some belt noise, that being said ,I would remove the guard from the front belt pulley and make sure that pulley has no play as that will cause wear on the splines of the output shaft ,damage that is costly to reverse.anything else is of relatively minor concern.You can jack the bike up ,rotate the rear wheel by hand and determine where the noise is coming from. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by verslagen1 on 01/03/17 at 19:05:58 It's possible the crash bent something or a wire popped outta place because of the tip over. If you can only hear the sound while walking it with motor off, count your lucky stars. but that doesn't mean ignore it. check the clearances around the belt, the bottom cover can be bent in to touch the belt. pull all the covers off the belt one at a time and check for clicking. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/03/17 at 21:14:52 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
Time between clicks is reasonably even spaced and similar loudness (its not a LOUD click, think a touch louder than a whisper) Yes the click is audible both forwards and backwards. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Kenny G on 01/03/17 at 21:40:05 JD That sound like a possible wheel bearing problem. Figure out how to raise the bike, one wheel at a time, and determine if it is coming from either wheel. If it is a wheel bearing someone on here can help you. http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/bikelift.htm Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/03/17 at 23:26:02 A sidewalk and a friend.. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 05:04:54 687771766B6C5D6D5D65777B30020 wrote:
I live in New York City so plenty of sidewalks but I have no friends!! LOL Only kidding but I really dont have any friends in the city that are into bikes or I would trust to understand the simplest of mechanical procedures. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 05:07:35 48666D407162706B030 wrote:
I think you could be right Kenny, to be honest replacing the wheel bearings is something I have wanted to do anyways. I get a squeak from the front wheel especially on or after a damp day...bike is a '99 and has done almost 21,000 miles now...wouldnt suprise me if the current bearings are the originals. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Dave on 01/04/17 at 06:55:45 Look at the front brake disc and rear pulley to see if they got nicked or bent in the fall. Look at the teeth in the belt and the teeth in the pulleys to see if you somehow got a stone lodged in one of the teeth. If your front brake squeaks in damp weather....you most likely just need new pads. The factory pads are known to squeak - get some EBC Organic pads as they work really well. If/when you get ready to do wheel bearings......be sure to learn the easy way to get them out using an expanding anchor bolt that is made for use in construction. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 07:15:20 12292433222E353328202D32410 wrote:
Just replaced the pads with some very basic BikeMaster pads a few weeks after purchase of the bike weeks ago Dave, had the little squeak prior to install and post in damp weather. Wasnt trying to cheap out on my brakes but they were the only ones I could get from my local store that fit the bike and the previous owner of the bike had let the pads run almost to the metal so needed a quick fix. The squeak always dissapears within a mile or so of riding so I think it could be a slightly seased bearing Back to the clicking though, I rocked and walked the bike back and forth over and over this morning and I 'think' its coming from the front pulley. I havent had time to open up the casing yet but if you place your hand over the pulley cover you can feel a slight vibration through the casing when the clicking sounds. Any ideas? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Dave on 01/04/17 at 07:21:26 A noisy front pulley can be the trapped stone or debris....or could possibly be a loose pulley. Let's hope the pulley is not loose, as that can eat up the splines and ruin the output shaft. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by youzguyz on 01/04/17 at 07:22:23 Quote:
I took a quick look at the posts. How OFTEN does it click? Once per revolution of the front pulley? Could be loose on the shaft or have a rock/pebble imbedded. Or maybe something internal to the transmission. (Dave is just too fast for me....) Once per cycle of the belt? Could be a rock/pebble in the belt. One per revolution of the rear wheel? Could be a rock in the rear pulley or bearing problem in the rear. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 07:29:28 5C4A505F42505C5F250 wrote:
Oh its regular, like 10 times+ per revolution of the front pulley. At a walking pace its like click, click, click, click (happens as regular as you can say the word if that makes sense!?) |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by youzguyz on 01/04/17 at 08:51:01 Time to pull some covers, do some looking and wiggling. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 09:31:12 4F59434C51434F4C360 wrote:
Sighs...yup! |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 09:33:12 21372D223F2D2122580 wrote:
Sighs....yup! Was kinda what I was fearing, and I live in the middle of NYC...doing maintenance is pain here as I have to do everything road side due to the lack of a garage....desperately need to find a fellow Savage owner close by!! |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Dave on 01/04/17 at 09:53:05 You might want to find a local affordable motel....that has a room right next door to the parking lot! ;) Or some other convenient "hot spot" where you can get out of the weather for a bit. The cover only requires 3 screws to remove (8mm hex I believe). There are some rubber and metal spacers that you have to juggle and keep track of - that make it a little bit more involved. http://i68.tinypic.com/1zg8e1f.jpg |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by ohiomoto on 01/04/17 at 10:17:42 LOL I've been know to rebuild a top end or two in a motel room. :) |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 10:38:25 1A212C3B2A263D3B2028253A490 wrote:
This awesome!! just made me spit my coffee all over the work computer!! |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by batman on 01/04/17 at 11:32:41 I 've done some repairs humming "workin' at the carwash blues" by jim croce if that gives you any ideas.( manual car wash late at night)l |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 11:40:45 4043564F434C161A220 wrote:
Thats not a bad idea Batman! I need to find some way of befriending one of the chop shops close to where I live and seeing if I can slip them 20 bucks or something sometime and get some REAL work done when I can get her up on a ramp etc. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 15:20:26 OK, so I have located the issue. Took the bike out for a quick ride (about 10 miles) and noticed that what was a click click click was now a much more rubbery sounding creak or squeak. Took off a few covers and I have worked out that the drive belt is a little out of line...only by like a millimeter but enough so it is making a slight noise when at slow speed (walking pace) If i give the belt a good push towards the center of the bike the noise completely goes away for a rotation or so before it 'readjusts' itself back out of alignment. Any ideas guys?? http://https://s23.postimg.org/8zxc3rswr/IMG_6809_copy.jpg |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by batman on 01/04/17 at 16:01:49 Sell it on Ebay! :) :) :).......or maybe realign the rear wheel? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by verslagen1 on 01/04/17 at 16:38:58 434D476C7E50667B62090 wrote:
everything you wanted to know about your belt... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1335401723 |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 16:58:56 Aha so its the rear wheel alignment...well I guess it could be worse. Given that I have to do all my work at the roadside do you know if this is something that a tire shop could take care of for me?? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Yoshi on 01/04/17 at 17:24:54 Loosen the rear wheel and realign a little, 15min job thats not worth letting incompitant tire shop workers do. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/04/17 at 17:57:00 091809303C32382B2A3230590 wrote:
I don't need to take it up on a ramp/jack?? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Dave on 01/04/17 at 18:09:20 All those white lines across the belt indicate cracks in the outer cover, which can be caused by running your belt too tight. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/04/17 at 19:28:04 79777D56446A5C4158330 wrote:
The belt will, for some reason, be noisier wet than dry. You discovered the click after the wet fall. You're naturally focused on Is there damage from the fall Even though You were the landing pad for the bike. The belt tension comes to mind. Alignment is a controversial subject. Under acceleration, the rear pulley is put under loads I couldn't begin to calculate. Expecting it to stay perfectly parallel to the center line of the rim seems a bit starry eyed. It's not Just a machine , it's an Inexpensive and old design. It ain't Perfikk. If you pull the front pulley cover and put a light cord into the cogs and roll it till it is at the front, pull the cord across the rear pulley. That will show you how they are aligned. I know that works, I've used it, and that is how we aligned pumps with the pulleys on drilling rigs. Okay, that is Static alignment. The belt tension is really important. Mine is noisy and I have plenty of experience and know how to do it right. It's not screeching,but it's not quiet. Just read up on belt tension and get the pulleys aligned . If it's not silent, then either accept it or use talcum powder or canning wax on the belt. If you do that then you'll have eliminated the belt as the source. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/05/17 at 03:26:16 [/quote] The belt will, for some reason, be noisier wet than dry. You discovered the click after the wet fall. You're naturally focused on Is there damage from the fall Even though You were the landing pad for the bike. The belt tension comes to mind. Alignment is a controversial subject. Under acceleration, the rear pulley is put under loads I couldn't begin to calculate. Expecting it to stay perfectly parallel to the center line of the rim seems a bit starry eyed. It's not Just a machine , it's an Inexpensive and old design. It ain't Perfikk. If you pull the front pulley cover and put a light cord into the cogs and roll it till it is at the front, pull the cord across the rear pulley. That will show you how they are aligned. I know that works, I've used it, and that is how we aligned pumps with the pulleys on drilling rigs. Okay, that is Static alignment. The belt tension is really important. Mine is noisy and I have plenty of experience and know how to do it right. It's not screeching,but it's not quiet. Just read up on belt tension and get the pulleys aligned . If it's not silent, then either accept it or use talcum powder or canning wax on the belt. If you do that then you'll have eliminated the belt as the source. [/quote] We had mentioned earlier in the post that maybe the noises were 'all in my head' but that is certainly not the case, has gotten progressively louder and more obvious that it is the rear wheel alignment that is a little out, I do also think that the belt is running way too tight (especially after reading that ideally you should be able to pinch the belt at 90 degrees, there is NO chance of pinching my belt at all on inspection). My real issue now is that I live right in the middle of New York City so simply popping the bike up on a jack or wood blocks is easier said than done, given I have to work on my bike at the roadside. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/05/17 at 06:13:20 310A0710010D16100B030E11620 wrote:
Do you think the white lines could have been caused from driving with the belt too tight just for a few miles since laying the bike down Dave or is that more of a sign of prolonged use with the belt too tight? I am just wondering, as I have just ordered a simple crank stand jack so I can perform the necessary maintenance (wasnt super expensive and I consider it a good investment to be able to lift the bike when needed in the future) but wanna know if running the bike for the next few days while I wait for delivery of the jack is going to compromise the belt to the point of breakage? I honestly think that the belt was probably too tight anyways and the accident has just thrown the back wheel out of alignment a smidge creating the squeak. And therefore doing another 30 miles on it on my commute the next few days isnt really going to do any harm....but ,maybe I am an idiot!? :-? |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Dave on 01/05/17 at 06:21:14 The white lines are caused by a long term overly tight condition....and the white smudges don't show up immediately after the cracks have formed. Your belt has most likely been too tight for a long time. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/05/17 at 06:55:04 6B505D4A5B574C4A5159544B380 wrote:
Thats what I thought, so I will run her a little crooked just for the next few days and then get her butt in the air to do some adjustments to the wheel and belt. Just also wanna say a big thanks to you all for the help with this. I am sure I sound like a real dumbass with some of my questions but this is my first bike and it means a lot to have such a helpful community. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by youzguyz on 01/05/17 at 08:52:21 1F111B30220C3A273E550 wrote:
Thats what I thought, so I will run her a little crooked just for the next few days and then get her butt in the air to do some adjustments to the wheel and belt. Just also wanna say a big thanks to you all for the help with this. I am sure I sound like a real dumbass with some of my questions but this is my first bike and it means a lot to have such a helpful community. [/quote] You don't really HAVE to put the bike in the air to adjust the tension.. it just makes it a LOT easier to see what is going on. Just loosen up the axle nut a bit and twiddle with the adjusters. If you need to move an adjuster to move the axle to the rear you need to make sure the axle is up against the adjuster screw before you tighten the axle nut. Tap the axle nut/bolt on that side with a hammer to move the axle back to the adjuster screw. Loosen axle, play with adjusters, tap axle with hammer, tighten axle (slightly so it can't move), see how it looks (check tension (90 degree twist test), roll bike and observer belt) Lather, rinse, repeat. When it looks good, tighten axle bolt completely. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/05/17 at 09:15:37 61776D627F6D6162180 wrote:
Thats what I thought, so I will run her a little crooked just for the next few days and then get her butt in the air to do some adjustments to the wheel and belt. Just also wanna say a big thanks to you all for the help with this. I am sure I sound like a real dumbass with some of my questions but this is my first bike and it means a lot to have such a helpful community. [/quote] You don't really HAVE to put the bike in the air to adjust the tension.. it just makes it a LOT easier to see what is going on. Just loosen up the axle nut a bit and twiddle with the adjusters. If you need to move an adjuster to move the axle to the rear you need to make sure the axle is up against the adjuster screw before you tighten the axle nut. Tap the axle nut/bolt on that side with a hammer to move the axle back to the adjuster screw. Loosen axle, play with adjusters, tap axle with hammer, tighten axle (slightly so it can't move), see how it looks (check tension (90 degree twist test), roll bike and observer belt) Lather, rinse, repeat. When it looks good, tighten axle bolt completely. [/quote] Good to know, the jack has already shipped so I think I will take the option that is a LOT easier!! should arrive within a few days :D |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/05/17 at 11:09:51 Loosen axle and adjusters, put in gear, pull clutch in, roll backwards, pop clutch, wheel moves forward. By keeping the slack on the lower half of the belt you can get the tension right. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by ohiomoto on 01/05/17 at 11:29:53 I would check to make sure (one side of) the wheel didn't slip backwards. It it did, there will be a little space between the adjuster bolt and the swingarm. This happens sometimes in crashes but it normally takes a good hit to move a wheel if it was properly secured. If it did, you probably want to get it back to the precrash setting before you go changing everything. To do that, just loosen the axle bolt ( but not the adjusters), pop the wheel forward (as described above) making sure both adjuster bolts are seated against the swingarm. Then tighten the axle and you should be exactly where you were before the crash. If the noise is gone, great. (Now you can deal with making sure the belt tension is correct.) If the noise is still there, then you may have other problems (which is why you wanted to get the wheel back to the pre crash state right??? ;) ). You might want to make sure the swingarm didn't get bent or pushed over. Our swingarm is pretty light duty. Did the frame get tweaked? Any issues with motor mounts? Most of this stuff sounds unlikely since you cannot find any other damage to the bike, but if the wheel did move then it hit something hard enough to cause other issues. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/05/17 at 11:38:12 I really dont think the frame or swingarm is bent in any way and no problem with the motor mounts. Definitely gonna give this a try....when you say loosen the axle bolt are we talking loosen just a little or loosen completely? I dont wanna dump the clutch and have the wheel pop way too far forward because I loosened too much. Again apologies if this is a dumb question but I would rather ask a dumb question before attempting something for the first time than not an screw things up more!! |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/05/17 at 11:46:38 Loosen the axle enough to slide in the slot. Loosen the adjusters enough to let it move . They decide how far , not the axle. But, they will swing down. It's not hassle free, it's a Look, think, do Project. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/17 at 11:51:27 Since someone suggested that the axle moved cause of the crash... Before you loosen her up, check the adjuster screws are against the swingarm and in the notches. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by ohiomoto on 01/05/17 at 12:14:16 6E606A41537D4B564F240 wrote:
You may want to YouTube how to adjust a motorcycle chain or belt. 1) Look at the adjusters (one on each side) making sure the lock nuts are still tight and the bots are seated against the back of the swing arm. If everything is tight and properly seated, then we will assume the wheel didn't move. If there is a gap between one of the bolts and swingarm, go to the next step. 2) To get the wheel back to where it started and confirm this is the cause of the noise, loosen the axle (as loose as you want without taking it out) and leave the adjusters as they were. Now pull the wheel forward so that both adjuster bolts are seated. Now tighten the axle up making sure the wheel doesn't move. (When I raced motocross I would just put a small wrench between the chain and sprocket and rotate the wheel enough to pinch it in there. this would pull the wheel forward and hold it there while I tightened the axle.) 3) If the noise is gone, then you've confirmed that was the cause. You might want to repeat these steps to get proper tension. As I mentioned, I use to race motocross and have seen a lot of bashed up bikes. You normally want to tackle one thing at a time and try and return the bike to the state before the crash before you make any other adjustments. If you do to much at once, you may miss the real problem and still have issues. I doubt you need to worry too much. If you want to loosen it up and adjust everything at once, have at it. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/06/17 at 12:21:46 Does anyone know the bolt sizes are on the axle, its a 17mm on one side and the other is larger than the biggest socket/wrench I have (20mm), I always wish the Clymer manual would give you these kind of details but it also just simply says 'loosen bolts' Just wanna be able to go to Home Depot and grab a new socket, I pretty much refuse to ever use my adjustable wrench |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Kris01 on 01/06/17 at 13:16:21 I'll check. Gimme a second. ;) |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Kris01 on 01/06/17 at 13:21:50 It's 24 mm on the LH side and 17 mm on the RH side. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/06/17 at 13:39:47 A crescent will be fine, just square it up and tighten it , and put the corner of the nut that will get the pressure down on the bottom of the adjustable jaw. The small end,, I'm not so comfortable with, but the nut fills the wrench. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Kris01 on 01/06/17 at 14:30:49 I like a 24 mm box wrench. You can hammer on it or use a cheater bar. That nut is usually pretty tight. I had a heckuva time getting mine loose the first time. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by Kris01 on 01/06/17 at 14:35:48 I just remembered something... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1166804153 Check the 2nd post! ;D This thread is good for those oddball measurements you may need. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/06/17 at 19:11:40 566F746E2D2C1D0 wrote:
Thanks Kris, big help! Much appreciated |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/06/17 at 23:20:50 A crescent will be fine, just square it up and tighten it , and put the corner of the nut that will get the pressure down on the bottom of the adjustable jaw. That takes most of the slack that allows the jaw to tilt in the handle out. Used carefully they are as good as an open end wrench. But, I shy away from them if I have the right tool, and the nut is Tight. The small end,, I'm not so comfortable with, but the nut fills the wrench.I wound up using a crescent when I did the rear tire. |
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Title: Re: Help after a fall Post by JDNewYork on 01/16/17 at 11:18:53 Just an update everyone. Eventually had the chance to jack up the bike (still needed a second pair of hands because as is often the issue our beloved Savage doesn't have much on the way of a jacking point that will bias the weight to the front to raise the rear). Every suggestion that was given was hugely appreciated...it seems that the low speed drop had pushed the rear wheel out of alignment, not by much at all....and honestly is the belt hadn't been over tight...I probably wouldn't have even noticed. But the belt WAS way too tight....one I had the butt in the air, all it needed was about a full turn on either side of the belt adjusters and she is running soooooooooo smooth now, actually better than prior to the accident so maybe it was a blessing in disguise! |
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