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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedback /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1482904222 Message started by IslandRoad on 12/27/16 at 21:50:22 |
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Title: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedback Post by IslandRoad on 12/27/16 at 21:50:22 Hi all, fairly new member here. I’m hoping some experienced members can lend me some guidance on assessing the bike after a muffler upgrade and re-jetting. First some background. I have a 2014 S40. I bought it with 1500 km on the clock about two months ago. It’s now got near 3000 km on it. It is stock, although a previous owner had drilled a few holes in the exhaust. The holes had been subsequently welded (I assume a dealer traded it and needed to return the bike to original condition to sell it as a learner approved bike). The fuel mix plug had also been removed from the carb. It had been knocked over once, resulting in slightly twisted handle bars and a bent foot peg (I straightened those two things out pretty easily.) I have no experience with mechanical projects but know my way around power tools etc. I have a decent set of tools; gear wrenches, spanners, screwdrivers, grinder, drill, etc. This bike has become my introduction to the world of motors – specifically bikes. When I bought the bike, it had the usual little things going on that I’ve read about here on the forum; backfiring on deceleration, surging at about ¼ throttle, and the top of the header pipe starting to turn blue and gold. I adjusted the idle screw to about 1 ¾ turn out, which pretty much eliminated the backfiring. The surging was still there – pulling the choke out one notch pretty much got rid of the surging and made the bike accelerate. Overall it was responsive, had plenty of power, and cruised well on the freeway. I live pretty much at sea level and we are heading into summer, so humidity sits around 80% - 100 % now. After doing a lot of research here on the forum I bought a pair of HD Dyna mufflers which came off a new bike (the kind with the slotted bolt rail). I used Serowbot’s method of mounting it to the bike and managed to get it installed and mounted with no exhaust leaks. (First time I tried it, it leaked, so I got a muffler shop to make an adapter, but that pushed the mounting-rail out past the bike’s mounting rail – and it still leaked). I revisited Serowbot’s approach (reading the instructions more carefully) and she worked a treat! I learned that the bike would also need re-jetted, so I ordered some jets online based off the info on this site about stock jets. I found an Australian distributor for Mikuni. The jets were $6 each. I managed to get the float bowl off the carb without removing the carb from the bike. The stock jets were 145/52.5. I stepped them up to 150/55. So, I went two steps on the main and one step on the pilot (I basically just read tons of posts on the forum and then chose this configuration, considering my altitude, humidity etc). As I said, I’m new to all this so I am trying to put off taking the carb out, unless I have to. Also, postponing the needle washer mod, unless I have to. I will probably have to read the plug but am not confident to get it out on the side of the rode, yet. Going one step at a time. So, the results. I seem to need the choke on to start it now (I didn’t before). The idle mix screw works best now about a quarter to half a turn CW from where it was before. The engine almost dies at full CW rotation, and is similar at about three turns CCW. The bike still feels responsive. The surging is almost gone. What’s left of the surging probably kicks in a little further along the throttle rotation. If I travel at about 90 km/hr in fourth gear then roll-off the throttle a little, it doesn’t surge. If I pull the choke half a notch on the highway it has no effect. Backfiring is back, worse especially at slow speed in low gears. I try not to come off the throttle hard but still get some backfiring at low speeds – enough that it feels like things aren’t quite right. My questions are: Does this sound like I need to step up one jet size on the pilot? or Should I bite the bullet and do a plug reading? And/or Should I jump in and do the spacer mod? I’m trying to go little steps at a time, given my inexperience. I’m not sure which step is next – or even if this all sounds pretty good, and I should just stop here. I would really appreciate some guidance from anyone with experience. Cheers from Aus Kieran |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by zipidachimp on 12/27/16 at 23:13:26 Welcome: from my own experience at sea level, 52.5/150 works best, but the most bang for the buck comes from the needle spacer mod. I ground mine to half thickness, response is excellent, minimal backfiring. Others may disagree, but I'm a happy biker! This forum is full of wise S40 owners, very knowledgable. Cheers! 8-) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 00:26:10 Hey Zippi, Thanks for the reply. I was wondering if I should have just done the main jet and seen how that went. But when I got the float bowl off I was so excited I thought, ah well I'll jump in and do both while I'm here. Next step might be to step the pilot jet back down ... then the spacer mod. Are you running the stock pipe? |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 12/28/16 at 00:45:19 I have a dyna but I have not installed it yet, in Australia too at sea level and I have put a 55pilot and left the main jet at 145, right now and it is running very well. No spacer mod yet either. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 01:11:40 That's really interesting Eau, I'm not sure how to proceed from here. I'm probably doing too many things at once. Like I said above, I was happy to get the float bowl off and thought I'd do it all at once. I'm pretty sure something is not quite right. The bike is completely ride-able, just doesn't feel quite right near idling speed. I might need to revert to the original jets, take it for a spin and then work through the carb-tuning guide on the site. This was mostly an experiment to get me going with making mods :) Time to trouble shoot now :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by zipidachimp on 12/28/16 at 01:39:39 Dyna! also K&N cone filter. 8-) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 02:04:01 Thanks Zippi, I'm starting to think the stock pilot jet and one step up from stock on the main jet might be closer. In the morning I'll revert to stock and go for a ride with that in mind :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Dave on 12/28/16 at 03:32:54 2E3D243D3035373C3D3924540 wrote:
I am voting for the spacer mod....your surging problems are in the area where the pilot jet has stopped working, and your main jet is not yet opened up......as the needle is still controlling the fuel flow. Drop the pilot jet down 1 or 2 sizes (a#55 is too big)....and do the spacer mod. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 11:31:54 Thanks Dave, I'll drop the pilot jet back down to stock this morning ... and read up again on the spacer mod. Pretty sure I can tackle it with the carb in place if I remove the fuel tank. I just need to find some suitable washers. I'm having trouble finding the dimensions for those. I've seen them on here referred to as '#4 machine washers'. I'm not confident my local hardware guys here in Aus will automatically know what I'm asking for ... we'll see. 417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by ohiomoto on 12/28/16 at 11:42:00 The actual size/name of the washer isn't important. As long as you can find some that fit over the top of the needle that you can stack to replace the white spacer they will work. Just take the needle with you. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 13:32:08 Thanks, nothing beats a visual comparison ey? :) 0C0B0A0C0E0C170C630 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 13:48:11 Results. I reverted to the stock jets and took her for a good spin to warm her up and test the roll-off in fourth gear. I probably should have done that as soon as I fitted the muffler. As I said though, I'm new to this so it's been a real learning experience jumping in and getting to know the idiosyncrasies of the S40. So, for comparison: Stock jets with the stock muffler. 1. Idle mix screw - 1 and 1/4 turn out 2. Minimal backfiring at low speeds on deceleration, at that idle mix 3. Surging - very noticeable at about quarter throttle 4. Pulling choke at speed - accelarted the bike and reduced surging 5. Generally good power and responsive Stock jets with Dyna muffler. 1. Idle mix screw - 1 and 3/4 turns out 2. Slightly increased backfiring at low speeds, at that idle mix 3. Surging - almost imperecptable 4. Pulling choke at speed - no noticable effect 5. Generally good power and responsive, and probably a little smoother Generally speaking, to my inexperienced mind, it doesn't seem like I need to do anything else. I formed the impression that installing a new muffler would always require re-jetting. However, I also read on here that everyone seems to settle on different jets depending on the bike, riding style, and environment. BTW, the header is bluing, and golding. It has been since I got it home. The bike moved to a lower elevation (sea level) when I bought it and it started bluing before I made any mods. And we're running into summer hear - it's been hot and humid. So now I've got two questions: Is it possible that a simple adjustment of the idle mix screw could be all I need to balance the bike for the muffler? Is there anything I should know, or check, to make sure I'm not running too lean/rich, potentially causing damage somewhere else? Thanks again guys |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 12/28/16 at 14:27:47 Are you turning the Idle adjusting screw on the left side of the engine or the Pilot screw on the right side of the engine ? If you are turning the Pilot screw then at 1 3/4 turns out, is this the spot where you got the highest rpm ? If not, then you need to turn the screw out some more until you get to the spot where the rpm is highest. At that point, whether you turn IN or Out the rpm will decrease. This is the best place for the pilot screw. You are currently running a 52.5 pilot and 150 main jet... and a white spacer mod as well ? The 52.5 should be good for the engine with the dyne muffler, and the 150 is likely ok but I personally like the 152.5 main jet for this type of setup. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Ruttly on 12/28/16 at 15:16:39 Lancer , You splained that so well like you've done it a few times ! If he doesn't get that , well Wow what restraint, maybe all that being moderated has conditioned me ! No way ! Just being nice today ! ;D |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/28/16 at 16:19:51 Hi Lancer, I adjusted both screws. The one on the left, just a touch so the engine isn't loping at idle. The one on the right, the pilot screw, is at 1 and 3/4 turns out, which is the spot where I get highest rpm. If I turn it fully clockwise the engine just about stalls. If I keep going CCW from where it is now the rpm drops. 3 turns CCW is not as dramatic a drop as fully dialed in CW. I haven't done the spacer mod. As for the jets, I set them back to stock to start working my way through tuning, one step at a time. So now they are at 52.5/145 It sounds like I have the pilot jet right. If the bike seems to run ok on the stock jets, what would be the rationale for upping the main jet? Is it to improve performance, or would it help in keeping the engine in good shape? 232E212C2A3D7D784F0 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 12/28/16 at 20:10:16 When you are going down the highway and "slowly" turn the throttle to accelerate, is there a point where it seems to run out of power before you have reached Wide Open Throttle ? Maybe 3/4 or 7/8 throttle ? Or does it continue to accelerate strongly all the way to wide open ? If it is strong all the way then you have the correct size jet. If it runs out of power before reaching wide open then you need a larger main jet. And you need to swap the white spacer for 3 washers, or if you have the old style needle with the 3 grooves then perhaps drop down 1 groove, especially if the clip is on the top groove. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 12/28/16 at 20:20:59 715657574F5A230 wrote:
Maybe a few times...and perhaps once or twice more. [ch128526] |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by batman on 12/28/16 at 22:27:51 Island road, Idle jet from idle to 1/4 throttle,needle jet from 1/4 to 1/2 throttle,jet needle from 1/2 to 3/4 throttle,main jet 3/4 to wot(wide open throttle). Normal steady road speeds 35-65 mph,2300 to 4100 rpm,is between 1/4 and3/4 throttle ,If you don't do the spacer mod you are generally running lean,even more so as your at sea level, which can cause surging ,bluing of your exhaust, because the motor runs hotter .THe stock spacer is plastic and can be reduced by running it across sandpaper laid on a flat surface.I would start by reducing it by 1/4 then by 1/2 if surging continued .THen test your main jet. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/29/16 at 03:09:13 Thanks Batman, It's started to click for me now :) Now that the pilot and main feel right I can really notice the way the mid-range feels - surging, and not as responsive on acceleration. So Now I get where the needle jet fits into the equation. Your description of the role of the jets make that really clear. I'll do the spacer mod in the next few days, time permitting and test it again. Then I'll up the main jet to 150 - and test again. I upped the main jet by one size earlier today, to 147.5, and took it for a good run. I did the slow throttle increase that Lancer suggested, and the roll-off test, that Serowbot suggested in the carb-tuning post in the tech section. On the slow acceleration, to full throttle, there is just about an eighth turn (maybe less) right before full throttle where I reckon the power flattens out. On the roll-off test, I do get a slight increase in acceleration just as I ease off from full throttle. So I'm figuring another jet size would be appropriate The next size main jet would bring it to 150 as, Lancer suggested (I decided to go up one at a time and road test each so I could get to know the feel of the changes). All in all, the bike feels great! It already feels more exciting to ride, even at this stage, and the Dyna muffler sounds (and looks) a lot nicer than the stock muffler. I really appreciate all the help. I'm starting as a complete noob, so the learning curve is steep. But it's great when something clicks. I can replace the jets now, between test rides, in under ten minutes. I know that probably wouldn't be very impressive for anyone with experience - but hey, it's a start for me, and it feels like progress 8-) Also, I decided to post updates on the progress so anyone else new to it all could follow, on the chance it might be useful. I learnt a ton from reading about various experiences on here before having a go at it myself :) 4447524B4748121E260 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Dave on 12/29/16 at 04:04:20 Maybe this will help you to understand where the throttle position affects where the fuel is coming from. You don't need to worry about the shape of the slide cutaway or needle taper - those are already worked out and don't need to be fussed with. What you need to work on is the "clip position"....which is the height of the white spacer. Only the very early Savage models had a multiple grooves and the clip on the slide that could be adjusted (or folks who order the expensive Dynajet kits).....the rest of us only have 1 groove and we have to cut down the height of the white spacer or use washers to adjust the height of the needle. Several of us old farts have been through this before, and you really need to understand that we have a good understanding of this issue......you need to reduce the size of your spacer if you want to cure this lean condition at mid-throttle. That will allow the needle taper to be a bit higher in the slide - which will allow a little more fuel flow at the throttle setting where you are having a "lean surge" issue. http://i65.tinypic.com/10elamg.jpg |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/30/16 at 01:16:55 Thanks Dave, the graphic really drives home what I've been learning :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/30/16 at 01:50:32 Ride Report: So I jumped in and did the spacer mod (thanks for the nudge). I was able to get to the carb through the top without removing it, after taking off the seat and the tank. I got some washers which fitted over the pin but were too wide to fit down the hole. As I was scratching my head, trying to figure out what to do next, I noticed something ... the pin had little notches! - three of them. And the spacer was on the middle one (I've attached a picture). That was a nice surprise. So I moved the clip down one notch and reassembled everything, and took it for a spin. The test ride was just terrific!! No surging. Pulling the choke out one notch while coasting made the bike stumble a little bit (that seems just right). While test riding I did the roll-off test, and acceleration test, for the main jet. Got back home, and stepped the main jet up to 150. Then test rode again. There is a noticeable increase in power all the way through, but especially when I open the throttle right up. In fact up around 90km/hr (55mpr) opening the throttle delivers a really surprising amount of torque. I was up to 120km/hr (75mpr) in a blink, and the bike was purring. Also, from a standing start, working hard up through the gears, the bike rockets along. It's not going to lift the front wheel or anything like that, but I did manage to scare myself a little while accelerating out of a wide bend. So my current carb setup is: Jets are at 52.5/150 Pilot mix screw is at 1 and 1/4 out Idle is sweet Acceleration is strong No surging at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle The sound from the Dyna muffler has come to life. Thanks heaps for the advice guys. Even the smallest details helped from reading through the forum threads. Things like filing the point of my #2 Phillips Head screwdriver before trying to get the screws out of the bottom of the diaphragm, and slapping the gas tank on the right to get it off with the petcock still attached, saved me a ton of headaches :) I probably sound like an excited school kid ... well hey ... that's how I feel 8-) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 12/30/16 at 11:13:24 Well ok then, if it is running like a scalded dog without any hiccups or hesitation then YOU DONE GOOD ! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by batman on 12/30/16 at 18:07:43 Nice job ! but you should check your mileage ,as it will be a little lower ,but the trade off for good performance is worth it. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by zipidachimp on 12/31/16 at 03:05:22 thought only the old bikes had the grooved needle? 2014? 8-) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Dave on 12/31/16 at 03:38:09 7D6E776E6366646F6E6A77070 wrote:
He's not in the US.....looks like he got the grooved needle as or EPA doesn't reach out that far yet! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Kris01 on 12/31/16 at 10:49:24 I wonder why Suzi didn't change the needle globally? It seems like it would be cheaper on their part. :-? |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by zipidachimp on 12/31/16 at 13:02:02 Apparently the epa reached into canada, or suzuki doesn't recognise the border. Or, canadian politicos caved in to a foreign entity, as it's less work, and americans can pay for the research (easy riders!). >:( I'm veering off topic, so I'll shut up. 8-) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 12/31/16 at 14:10:47 Well, the good news is you have got a good needle. It makes jetting easier. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/31/16 at 15:52:53 I assumed we had the same, if not more stringent, environmental regulations in Australia than you guys have in the States. I looked it up and apparently we have follwed the UN in adopting the Euro 5 standards. I don't know the details but assume it means are setups are more similar to European than US. There was no plug on the pilot mix screw on my carb, when I got the bike. I assumed a previous owner removed it when they drilled the exhaust ... perhaps it never had one. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/31/16 at 16:07:05 So I've got another question for the experienced guys. I've been for a couple of longish rides since moving the spacer down a notch on the needle. The bike runs well, but I'm still getting a little bit of unevenness at the low end of the throttle - just off idle, and probably not even up to about 1/4 turn of the throttle. Like when coasting in 4th gear at about 35 mpr. It's not extreme surging. It feels something like when an uneven headwind holds the bike up in little spurts. Given that it's right down near idling, is possible the idle jet needs to go up one. Our is it more likely I need to reduce the spacer on the needle? Thanks for the help. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/16 at 16:42:18 I could probably piddle with my jetting and smooth it out a bit.. But, it's not bad enough to inspire me to go messing around in there. Are you riding and hunting for a spot where it's just not running perfect? Or, just running across town, normal operation it's irritating, surging and just bugging you? |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 12/31/16 at 18:06:44 Hi Justin, I do look for unevenness when testing just after I change a jet until it feels about right, Then I ride normally for a couple of days and try to forget about it. The surging was bugging me while riding around town. I do alot of slowish coasting in my general area. I tried to ignore it but it starts to affect the way I 'read' the bike while riding. I just upped the pilot jet this morning and tested (I was going to wait for a response here but the time difference to the States means I usually get replies next morning). I reckon it's about right now. So I'll leave that setup and see how it goes. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by batman on 12/31/16 at 23:47:29 IR at 35mph,your engine is turning 2500rpm in 4th ,I think your lugging it ,why not just down shift to 3rd. You really shouldn't be in 4th below 40-45mph. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/16 at 23:48:32 I'll try to remember to reply tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/01/17 at 00:03:44 That's a good point about the rpm. It's a long stretch of road that varies between 60 kph and 80 kph (38-50 mph). It always feels like both those speeds are right between gears. I did wonder if it was just the lugging causing the issue but I've checked it in different gears. It really feels like it's related to throttle position. It's not an extreme issue, at this stage, by any means. The tuning has really improved the bike heaps and I could probably just live with the question 'how smooth is smooth?. But I'm learning heaps by trouble shooting. So I'm just trying to iron out this last little wrinkle :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/01/17 at 00:15:09 Lugging isn't limited to speed and gear. Uphill? Into the wind? Accelerating? Luggage in the wind? |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/01/17 at 00:43:20 I have lugged it a couple of times when I had slowed down more than I thought, when first getting used to the bike. I shifted down quickly because even I could tell that ain't good! But taking your advice now, I think I should generally be adjusting my gear change habits. Not having a tach on this bike had perhaps made me a little cautious. Thanks for the advice. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/04/17 at 00:56:42 @IslandRoad, I see that I must have the same set up as you regarding the notched slide needle, therefore I have a couple of questions. I see you did not remove the carb to get to the needle, did you have any difficulty removing the Philips head screws without an impact driver. What notch position was being used when you opened it up, and what notch did you settle on. Also did you end up going back to the 55 pilot. thx. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/04/17 at 02:06:40 No problem getting the screws out. Took the seat and tank off and could get to the top of the carb. Best tip I learnt on here was to file the tip off a number two phillips head screwdriver until you can feel the driver seat snuggly into the screw (the screws are JIS). I had to start one stubborn one off with a multi-grip. Luckily I could get them onto it. File a screwdriver for the screws that hold in the plate that covers the needle and the spacer too. They're down the guts of tube with the diaphragm on it. The tube comes out so you don't have to have a go at them in situ. I can't remember what size screwdriver (maybe #1 phillips). I almost stripped one of them using a standard phillips head! I managed to get it after filing the point of the driver - it makes a huge difference. The clip was on the middle notch, so I moved it down to the bottom one. That makes the top of the needle poke further through the spacer (same effect as reducing the thickness of the spacer). I had the 55 pilot in before I did the needle, but realised I had an exhaust leak. So after I did the needle, I returned the pilot to stock 52.5 and sorted out the muffler connection. The bike runs really well now. I'll run at this setup for a while and see how she goes. I took photos as I worked. If you wanna see anything for reference just let me know. Keep in mind, I'm an absolute Noob (In fact, there is nobody Noobier). I've been learning from the forum and having a go. Some more experienced guys will have more to offer :) 45574340575153360 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/04/17 at 03:14:34 @IslandRoad, That's excellent, yeah I get you're a n00b but so am I however as you've just done it you're more likely to be tuned into the inevitable 'gotchas'. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/07/17 at 12:22:13 516B7479767C4A77797C180 wrote:
Years ago, in the dark ages, when I worked at a Honda dealer, the number one issue we had with riders is that they lugged the engines too much. Americans weren't used to hearing RPM's and they thought that "slower" was better. Not so if it means lugging! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/07/17 at 14:00:18 I looked up 'lugging' and did some reading. I had no idea out was so bad for the engine! I have to admit that after riding dirt bikes, when I was Kid, and then my one little sports bike recently when I got back into riding, i really enjoy the wide range of torque that the S40 has. Probably enjoyed it a bit too much at the lower end when just running around town. I've started running the bike at higher rpm in general and love it even more now. I'm going to install a tachometer. Mostly to learn more about the bike [ch9786] 110804050C0E0F150314020A041804610 wrote:
Years ago, in the dark ages, when I worked at a Honda dealer, the number one issue we had with riders is that they lugged the engines too much. Americans weren't used to hearing RPM's and they thought that "slower" was better. Not so if it means lugging![/quote] |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 01/07/17 at 18:19:36 [quote author=6A504F424D47714C4247230 link=1482904222/0#14 date=1482970791]Hi Lancer, I adjusted both screws..... If the bike seems to run ok on the stock jets, what would be the rationale for upping the main jet? ....................... Pardon me for not being clear with my statement. Sometimes my typing falls behind my thoughts and that leaves gaps in the thought process that is written down. That said, you should always go for an engine that runs best using whatever jets and settings you find that yields that. There are "typical" jets and settings for the LS650 but there are always variants in the herd. That is just the way it is with this machine. Some of them are faster, some quicker, some stronger, some more forgiving, and some are just downright testy. You are learning your machine, listen to it, it will tell you what it wants and when it feels really good. We are here to support you through the process. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/07/17 at 20:57:32 Thanks Lancer, You pretty much summed up the point I've come to [ch9786]. And it's great to have this forum to lean on. I've got the Dyna on and experimented with a few jet settings. Now I'm running it and getting a feel for it. As I mentioned before, I'm new to all this, but man, this is such a good bike to learn on ... and ride! Above all, it's a good honest hobby ... at least, that's how I explain it to the missus [ch128526] 414C434E485F1F1A2D0 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by batman on 01/08/17 at 20:24:42 IR,wide open throttle employs all your jets ,you have fuel coming in from your idle jet +jet needle +needle jet+ main jet.A 150 main is usually ok ,but if you live at sea level to 1000 ft . you may be still running to lean at WOT .and may have to go to a152.5 main. the way to test your main is to get the bike pulling hard with wot,then back the throttle off about 1/8,if the bike speeds up the main is to small(it's going lean) if the motor bogs the main is to large(it's going rich)if neither you have the correct size.you should use the smallest jet possible to get your bike to run well ,as larger jets decrease your mpg. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/08/17 at 21:05:02 Thanks Batman, I'll give it another test run tomorrow morning and see if I can tell if the main jet needs another step up |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/08/17 at 22:41:11 OK I don't have the Dyna in yet, but with the same weather, I'm running a 145 main and a 55 pilot and I've done the WOT then back off thing and it's pulling like a maniac with no surging upon 1/8 closure. Before I went to the 55 pilot from the stock 52.5 there was surging at low rpm. Now it's as smooth as silk pulls all the way from fully shut to wot with no surging or backfiring or pooting upon shutdown, plus the engine is running cooler. I'd seriously consider going back to the 55 pilot for another look. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/08/17 at 23:57:05 That's really interesting given that we are at the same elevation, and similar weather. I've been holding off on more changes for the last few days just to get a feel for the bike without tuning in too much. It's running pretty well. And the carb fuel mix screw is about 1 1/4 out for max rpm - that seems about right. I've also lifted the carb needle. I get a little bit of afterfiring, but only as much as seems normal for this type of bike. I'm not too concerned if I can't eliminate that. Having said that, I'm using this as a learning experience, as well as trying to get the best from the bike. And changing the jets takes about 5 minutes now, so I'm not opposed to testing a little more, even if it just means changing them back if it doesn't improve it. I just learn more along the way [ch9786] 12001417000604610 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/09/17 at 17:33:58 @IslandRoad, I believe that the Dyna breathes better!?, so I'll probably end up with a bigger main and move the needle position, but most local riding at the 60km speed limit is done at under 1/4 throttle and mostly 1/8 throttle, in fact 1/4 will give me 80kph no problems, and this is virtually exclusively the pilot jet from what I'm given to understand and you have the Dyna which at best would not affect the pilot, but more likely would need to go up a size and as I don't have the Dyna and am running with the pilot perfectly at 1 3/4 turns out, I find it peculiar that your stock 52.5 would be fine. And as noted further upthread, the pilot will still come into the mix even at higher openings anyway. This is what the sound graph looks like after taking it for a five minute ride, it is as even and perfect as it's possible to be at 1100rpm. http://https://s28.postimg.org/j2n59uf49/S40_1100.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/j2n59uf49/) P.S, I've decided against the welding as the muffler guy is confident that I'll be happy with his work. This will be happening next week so I'll be able to compare like with like. Although I have ordered a K&N as well got one on eBay with postage included from the U.K for $80 AUD which is barely more than the OEM filter. And $80 is cheaper than you can buy in in America! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Dave on 01/09/17 at 17:55:46 It has been my experience that the needle position is far more responsible for the 1/8th and up throttle setting than the Pilot jet. If you feel a slight surge at low throttle settings, try one less washer on the needle before you go up on the pilot jet. You want a pilot jet that is sized to work best when the screw is set between 1.5 - 2 turns.....if you can turn the fuel screw all the way in and the bike is still running well - the pilot jet is too big (idle speed set about 800 rpm for the idle fuel screw adjustment - then back up to 1,000 - 1,100 when the adjustment is completed). |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/09/17 at 19:30:42 Thanks for the advice Dave [ch9786] I had a feeling the needle spacer could come down a little bit more. I had moved it to the lowest notch on the needle and was hoping to get away with that. Still has a little surging at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle but I've been trying to ignore it. Probably need to reduce the spacer a little as well (I'm having trouble finding washers in the local shops that) I put the 55 pilot in last night and took it for a good run to warm up the bike and test it, just to see what effect it had. I wouldn't say it ran any better, however it did virtually eliminate the afterfiring (that was nice, but not critical for me). I'm probably at the stage of fine-tuning now. With the 55 pilot jet the fuel mix screw gives max rpm at about 3/4 turn CCW out from fully in. At fully in, the idle slows just a little. At 3 turns CCW the bike almost stops. Whereas, with the 52.5 pilot jet (stock), max rpm is at 1 1/2 turns CCW. The bike almost stops at fully in. And slows down considerably toward 3 turns out. That seems to me to say the 52.5 is the right pilot jet. Looks like I'll be reducing the spacer a little. And I have a 152.5 main jet on order. 073C3126373B20263D353827540 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/09/17 at 22:31:04 @IslandRoad, how come you are doing a spacer mod, I was under the impression that you have the jet with the clip? Which is what I was hoping to find when I open her up next week. Maybe I should get some no. 4 washers just in case. @Dave, This is amazingly weird. I had only recently upped the idle speed when hot to 1200 and when I turned the screw all the way in it did not stall as it did when I set it up initially with the 55 pilot. Right now the gf thinks I'm a bit mad because I'm analysing the engine beats in Audacity. So I turned the idle back down to 1000 and the engine stalled when the screw was still 1/2 out from fully shut. So it seems the idle speed also has a big bearing on this!? This is all with the 55 pilot. Just thought I'd let you know. I'm going to leave it as it is at the moment and try it all again next weeks when I put the Dyna muffler on. Just wanted to confirm with you that the initial idle speed has a big bearing on it. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 00:13:31 @Eau, my needle does have three notches for the clip that holds the spacer. Basically, middle is stock, and then one notch each way for leaner or richer. Dave's suggestion is based on using 4 washers to replace the spacer instead of moving the clip. By removing one washer at a time you reduce the spacer by 1/4 height at a time, so you can adjust in smaller increments. I was hoping the move to the richer notch would do the job but I think it need a little more. I've read on these forums of guys experimenting with everything from 3 washers down to no spacer at all. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/10/17 at 01:02:19 @Island, OK so let me get this straight (because I haven't had the needle out yet) The washers can be used *as well as or instead of* moving the clip position? @Dave, if I understood your post correctly are you saying that for the purposes of setting the pilot screw to set the idle rpm knob so that it's idling at 800? Because elsewhere Lancer suggested turning the idle higher than normal. His reasoning was that it's easier to hear the change in speed as you adjust the screw. But as I have just discovered having it at 1000 the engine would completely cut out before the idle mix screw was fully seated, but with the engine running at 1200 the engine did not cut out at all when the screw was fully turned in, in fact it didn't slow down that much at all! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 01:22:41 @Eau, all that matters is how far the needle gets lifted. There's a spring that pushes the needle upward against a plate. The plate has a hole in the top; small enough the catch the spacer, but big enough to let the top of the needle through. The white spacer sets the limit for how high it lifts. Reduce the size of the spacer - the needle will push up higher. Move the spacer down a notch - the needle will push up higher. I assume any combination of the two would also work. I'll post some pictures. This is the needle, the spring, the clip, and a little washer that sits below the clip. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 01:25:06 This is the diaphragm from the top of the carb. You can see the needle poking through the bottom: |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 01:28:59 This is looking down into the diaphragm. The two small screws hold the plate in place. In order to get the plate on, you have to put pressure on it because the spring is pushing upward against the spacer from underneath. You can see the spacer down the centre, and the needle in the centre of that. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 01:39:03 BTW, I only get a tiny bit of surging with the spacer on the bottom notch. It probably wouldn't even bother some people. It may not even be worth doing any more adjustments to the spacer. But, being a noob, I don't know what I don't know. I'm happy to tinker with it - 'cause then I'll know! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 01/10/17 at 03:21:27 You are doing well "Grasshopper". [ch127949][ch128526] |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by eau de sauvage on 01/10/17 at 03:47:46 @IR thanks again for the shots. Okie dokie, I feel fully prepared. Nothing like being forewarned. I'll post back again next week when hopefully I'll have the dyna and k&n air filter in too. @Lancer, if you are reading this, do you have any thoughts about how the initial idle rpm seems to affect whether or not the pilot screw will make the engine die when fully turned in? At 900rpm it dies when fully in but at 1200rpm you can turn it fully in and it's still idling just a tad slower. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Dave on 01/10/17 at 04:20:55 The reason I suggest dropping the idle speed down to adjust the idle speed mixture screw - is that when the idle speed is up over 1,000 - the slide is beginning to lift and some fuel will begin to flow out of the jet needle at the top of the main jet. That makes it nearly impossible to get the engine to react to the adjustment of the mixture screw. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Kris01 on 01/10/17 at 18:00:42 Plus the lower idle makes it easier to hear when you find the "sweet spot" with the adjustment screw. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 21:25:31 @Eau, here's another picture for you, for when you take the top of the carb. That long spring on the left pushes up against the top of the carb. It's not a big deal because you'll be sliding the top off to get it past the frame of the bike, but it can give you a surprise if you don't expect it and a 'slinky' comes up at ya when your're tentatively trying to get the lid off ;). Oh, and be careful when you lift the rubber diaphragm out (the thing on the right) the top bit is soft. I believe it expands and contracts as part of the vacuum operation of the carb, so don't puncture it or tear it ( you probably won't, but best to be careful) :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/10/17 at 21:27:17 Cheers "Sensei" 8-) 575A55585E49090C3B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 01:36:52 Hey guys, just updating this thread with today's progress. I had some time to do the needle spacer mod. I gotta tell ya it's basically impossible to get washers at the right size around here. I could get stainless or brass with 1/8 ID but they all have 5/16 OD. The spacer is 1/4 OD so the washers will go over the needle but not down the hole. I did some research on here and found a handy chart by Verslagen1 which confirmed the metal spacers have a larger OD than the nylon ones. Anyway I tried four different hardware stores and none could supply washers with the correct OD, and none could supply nylon washers at all. So I decided to modify the washers I had. The stainless ones were too thin. The brass ones were 1/4 the thickness of the original spacer. I put a bunch of them on a bolt, tightened them on and filed em. This is what they looked like originally: |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 01:40:36 I clamped the bolt to the bench then filed 'em - rotating occasionally. Large flat file first, then a small "jeweler's file" I got in a set of small files for two bucks, then 400, then 600 grit paper. I turned out that the wide point of the nut on each end was the correct OD, so they acted as a guide. This is how they look after filing - pretty ain't it? |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 01:42:30 After I separated them, I gave them a light run over on the flat with the 400 and 600 grit paper to knock off little burs on the edges. This is the original washer I bought next to the modified one: |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 01:51:15 So, I had moved the original spacer form the middle notch to the lower notch on the needle, but the results weren't satisfactory - still got surging at low throttle. I checked the distance between the notches and it is the equivalent of one washer - so that represents a spacer of 75% thickness. So this time, I moved the clip back to the middle notch and went with two washers (50% spacer). Here's a picture showing one washer on the needle. You can see that it sits right between the middle and upper notch: |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 01:58:02 So, after all that, the bike runs better than ever - based on a test ride today. I'm going on a two hour ride to visit my daughter tomorrow. The trip is half open highway, half winding roads through hills, and the weather is going to be perfect. So I'll get a chance to forget about tuning for the day, and just enjoy riding the bike :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/13/17 at 06:55:21 2B110E030C06300D0306620 wrote:
Try McMaster-Carr (mcarr.com) as they have nearly everything and in the 25+ years I have done business with them (I was a purchasing manager for several large factories) I have never had any bad experience. They now will sell to private individuals, and their online catalog is extremely easy to use. Also, anyone living in Ohio, it is worth a trip to Hartville Hardware, Hartville, OH, as this is a HUGE hardware/lumber store that has everything. It is privately owned by a Mennonite family and has a history of about 70 years. The store itself is larger than any big-box store you have ever been in. Wonderful people wonderful service. I used to live near there, but now I am in SC. I regularly call them, get the correct department, and get a salesman to find me what I want, and they will send it to me in the mail. Check it out on the internet at hartvillehardware.com While you are there, check out Hartville Kitchen. Also owned by the same family, and awesome, family style food! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by Dave on 01/13/17 at 07:02:56 5B424E4F4644455F495E48404E524E2B0 wrote:
IslandRoad lives on an island in Australia.....he is doing the best he can without getting washers shipped half a world away! ;) When you remove the white plastic spacer - The brass washers are thicker than the steel #4 washers (and larger diameter) - so if those are the only ones you can find, you should start with using only 2 washers instead of the 3 washers that we normally recommend as a starting point. |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/13/17 at 07:49:14 4E75786F7E72696F747C716E1D0 wrote:
IslandRoad lives on an island in Australia.....he is doing the best he can without getting washers shipped half a world away! ;) [/quote] But it is nice to know that there is a place that stuff is easy to find on their web site, and that can be purchased - stuff that, sometimes, the average person can get mail order that has been only available to professionals! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 12:33:21 Thanks for the tip. It's good to have another internet resource [ch9786] 554C4041484A4B514750464E405C40250 wrote:
Try McMaster-Carr (mcarr.com) as they have nearly everything and in the 25+ years I have done business with them (I was a purchasing manager for several large factories) I have never had any bad experience. They now will sell to private individuals, and their online catalog is extremely easy to use. Also, anyone living in Ohio, it is worth a trip to Hartville Hardware, Hartville, OH, as this is a HUGE hardware/lumber store that has everything. It is privately owned by a Mennonite family and has a history of about 70 years. The store itself is larger than any big-box store you have ever been in. Wonderful people wonderful service. I used to live near there, but now I am in SC. I regularly call them, get the correct department, and get a salesman to find me what I want, and they will send it to me in the mail. Check it out on the internet at hartvillehardware.com While you are there, check out Hartville Kitchen. Also owned by the same family, and awesome, family style food! [/quote] |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/13/17 at 12:36:33 The cost of shipping is a big factor on large items, on small things it's ok. But time is also a factor. I'd prefer to be doing something instead of waiting for stuff to arrive in the mail [ch9786] 172C2136272B30362D252837440 wrote:
IslandRoad lives on an island in Australia.....he is doing the best he can without getting washers shipped half a world away! ;) When you remove the white plastic spacer - The brass washers are thicker than the steel #4 washers (and larger diameter) - so if those are the only ones you can find, you should start with using only 2 washers instead of the 3 washers that we normally recommend as a starting point.[/quote] |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by LANCER on 01/13/17 at 16:47:29 Very cool dude, making do/modifying to make it work. Outstanding work on the washers ! My youngest daughter and her husband are both officers in the US Marine Corp; they say " when faced with a problem with no solution a Marine will IMPROVISE ! |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/20/17 at 00:48:22 Just adding the latest update to this thread for anyone who is interested. I haven't changed the setup since the last post, but the weather has changed - The jets are now at 52.5(stock)/152.5(3 steps up from stock). The spacer is at 50% thickness. I still had a bit of surging that I have been trying to figure out how to eliminate - but now think I don't need to. So, the weather here has changed over the last few days, and the surging is gone! When I was doing the original carb tuning we were experiencing days of 35°C (95°F) with humidity at 100%. Now the humidity is still up around 95% but the temperature is around 25°C (77°F). I took the bike for a couple of long rides and it was just terrific! It's great to feel the bike running the way I knew it could. It idles well, is smooth right through the throttle range, and if I open up the throttle it 'runs like a scolded dog' (as Lancer put it in an earlier post 8-)) I even had a chance to wind it out on a quiet stretch of straight country highway. I've read in some other threads the kinds of upper limits others found their bike could hit - and where the bike starts to struggle. I'd rather not talk numbers here but, let's just say, the bike didn't struggle. I'm adding all these details because I learned a lot by reading other people's trials and tribulations, so I hope it's useful to somebody :) |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/20/17 at 00:53:33 For anyone interested, there are two other threads, with discussions about the Dyna muff and the carb, which were running simultaneous to this one: This thread was about mounting the Dyna muff: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1483510375 And this one was about a petcock problem I discovered while doing the tuning - the discussion turned to the specifics of our carbs: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1484457581 |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by batman on 01/20/17 at 16:06:45 Yea!, a tuned carb & a dyna ! kind of hard to wipe the smile from your face isn't it? |
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Title: Re: I re-jetted for Dyna Muffler - Seeking feedbac Post by IslandRoad on 01/20/17 at 20:49:14 Yep ;D 787B6E777B742E221A0 wrote:
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