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Message started by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/16 at 19:53:27

Title: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/16 at 19:53:27

Okay, so, on a warmer day I got 90 MPH.
Today, at about 60 degrees and around 80% humidititty
80 was it. So, am I lean?

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kenny G on 11/20/16 at 20:44:30

Justin,

I wish I knew the answer to lean conditions affection MPH & MPG.

I can get 90 MPH any day without regard to weather conditions, but I am not doing it often.

I have not been happy with the gas mileage on my S40 which varies between 43 & 44.5 MPG. I have considered reducing the size of the main jet figuring that I may be running a little on the rich side.

Yesterday I removed the spark plug and it doesn't appear to have been running too rich. Here is a picture, which is not very good, the plug is tan.

I have a tendency to keep the RPMs up so if I get into a tight spot I have instant acceleration and I am thinking that is using more fuel than some riders.

Kenny G

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/20/16 at 20:58:43

High humidity, moisture displaces air and can condense at air filter but can be beneficial to combustion,I thinking a tad rich, look at the plug and then you will know.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/20/16 at 21:02:35

Remember you can not jet for all conditions , just find the sweet spot that work good !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/20/16 at 21:45:06

Kenny, that plug looks just fine. If you keep your RPMs as low as possible (without lugging the engine), you'll get better mileage.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/20/16 at 21:48:13

Colder air = denser air. More air per unit of volume.
More humidity = more water saturation in the air (less room for the air)

At 60 degrees, you should theoretically be faster than at 90 degrees (providing the humidity is the same or less).

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/16 at 22:48:47

60 degrees, you should theoretically be faster than at 90 degrees (providing the humidity is the same or less).
Back to top

Swat I was thinking

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by LANCER on 11/21/16 at 02:10:09

All engines are not created equal, some are just faster than others.
However, it would not hurt to put in the next larger size main jet to see if you are running lean.
What is your current main jet .

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/16 at 07:23:04

What is your current main jet ?

IDK, Reelthing put it in when he did the cam.
Idle is stock.
IDK about the idle air.
Just crossed 5,000 miles, valves ma y not be opening up fully. I do have a windshield and bags, and I don't tuck in so fully.. but, all that is true on the day I ran 90.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Dave on 11/21/16 at 08:45:28

A calm wind can make a big difference. A 5 mph wind is barely noticeable - but if it was at your back when you were doing 90mph and in your face when you could only do 80mph.....that could splain it!

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/21/16 at 17:39:10

Wind resistance (drag) will make a HUUUGE difference with a motorcycle. We are about as aerodynamic as a brick. A motorcycle drag coefficient is usually around 0.9-1.0!

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/21/16 at 19:42:18

Kris , And that's without bags & windshield !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/16 at 02:52:51

When the cop escorted me to the pack of riders it hit 90.
But, the point about the little breeze is well taken.
I did pull the choke a bit, but was running out of room and didn't get to really feel of it.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/22/16 at 18:43:32

4A6D6C6C7461180 wrote:

Kris , And that's without bags & windshield !

I wonder how bad it would be with bags and a shield. :o

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/22/16 at 20:03:02

I have Bags and a Windshield , sizes : 50 and 150 jets , and a stock motor w/valves adjusted .003 . Flat ground on a windless summer day equeals about 85 is top end with standard pulleys.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/22/16 at 21:16:02

I think 85/90 mph is plenty fast for you old farts ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Rotella with ZDDP & Geritol,Ensure,Depends

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/22/16 at 22:10:34

I think 85/90 mph is plenty fast for you old farts !

Yea ! Ruttly , and I don't want to go any faster than that either ! ;)

Hay , That don't mean we have to slow down for the curves though !! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/16 at 01:01:28

I broke 5,000 miles yesterday, changed oil today.
Drained the puke tube, saw gas, pulled the vacuum line, a few drops hit the starter, pulled the fuel line off the carb, steady drip, drip, drip...
I'll pop the tank, run the valves, and stick the Raptor in..

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/23/16 at 06:51:26

MM 90 is good for me I just want to get the 0 to 90 as quick as possible and yeah slowing for curves only wears out your brakes ! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/23/16 at 08:00:06

slowing for curves only wears out your brakes !

Ruttly , I like the way you think ! ;) : Smooth is Good 8-) , and don't include herkey/jerkey stuff. :)

JOG
Jetting : I had a 160 main jet in mine once --- it ran like a different bike - but - I couldn't stand 38 mpg ... ::)

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/23/16 at 15:17:00

041604161B08070A01490 wrote:

I had a 160 main jet in mine once

Did it not smoke like the city trucks spraying for mosquitoes?

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by batman on 11/23/16 at 16:32:49

What is your elevation ? If your near sea level you may have to go larger just for that.(are you one of them "flatlanders"?)

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/16 at 21:15:25

Who you calling Phlatlander, Boy?
I'll have you know that with just shy of another 5,000 feet I'd be able to say I live in a Mile High city..

We are a whopping 371 feet higher than the sand in Galveston..
The Dyna is a super deep blue where I can start seeing it as it emerges from under the heat shield.
I get 50 mpg, and I don't ride to maximize the mileage.
The spark plug looked like the one labeled
Normal,,
My picture has never been next to that label..

I'm curious to see how much different it runs with a Raptor in place of a leaking OEM petcock.

The vacuum line drizzled a few drops, no idea how much fuel was running through it when it had vacuum on it.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/23/16 at 22:41:00

I'm in between the Smokies on one side and the Missippi River flat lands on the other. At 1100ft alt.

No , it didn't smoke ... it just ran like a wild dog with a shot-gun wielding farmer hot on its tail ! ;D
You've heard the saying "Ya gota dump some fuel in there if ya want Horse-Power ! Well , there is truth to that.

I'm OK with 55-60 mpg if I can get it ,but I don't want to slow down going up-hill to get it. Like on a 250 Rebel or the like. ;)

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/16 at 22:57:02

I wouldn't be unhappy with lower MPG if it would make sub six second zero to sixty times and pull hard up to 90, The COST of the gas would not be a problem.
Stopping to Get gas every eighty miles or so would sukkk..

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/24/16 at 12:58:04

My carb runs great in the summer but winter time I can tell it's a lot leaner. Ya gotta jet for when you ride the most.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/24/16 at 18:40:22

Dialajet or Intelajet from Thunder Products

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/24/16 at 20:27:49

023B203A7978490 wrote:

My carb runs great in the summer but winter time I can tell it's a lot leaner. Ya gotta jet for when you ride the most.

It's got allen head bolts ,, I spose it wouldn't be a big hassle to rejet..

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Kris01 on 11/24/16 at 20:35:27

Shouldn't be too much of a hassle to correct but I've got enough to do usually. I just pull the choke out 1 notch when it's really cold outside. That seems to take care of the problem. As is, it doesn't surge or anything but it just "feels" lean. I can tell a difference between summer and winter.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/24/16 at 21:06:29

JOG

Funny you should say 80 mile fill-ups , I know an OldFeller that has that same problem. ;D

To have the ability to change the fuel mixture while your ridding would be sweet ! :o

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/24/16 at 23:16:26

I know I get ignored sometimes around here but maybe you should listen this time !
Dialajet allows you to change you jetting on the outside of the carb with a screw driver

Intelajet allows you to change your jetting with a knob mounted on your handlebar while riding

Both of these require a carb modification

Both of these claim a significant increase in fuel mileage

Both these will work on most any motorcycle carbs

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by LANCER on 11/25/16 at 05:20:34

ii
67404141594C350 wrote:

Yep, true, although I don't know that I would say a SIGNIFICANT increase in mileage.
It would depend on your current milage.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/25/16 at 06:28:33

Yes Lancer very true and other mods could affect it too !
But that is why I used the word "claim"
I have dialajet on mine haven't quite finished dialing it in due to making other changes that affect jetting and haven't even checked my mileage.
Partly due to when tuning your not riding the same way you normally would be ! And I may upgrade to the Intelajet anyways just for fun.
System seems to work well. Also installed UFO & Quad Flow Wing.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by LANCER on 11/25/16 at 06:53:19

How many main jet sizes did you drop to begin ? And now ?
The UFO and torque wing work really well together.
I've used the UFO & DAJ for years but upgraded to the Intelli-jet and added the torque wing recently.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/16 at 08:56:52

The UFO and torque wing work really well together.
I've used the UFO & DAJ for years but upgraded to the Intelli-jet and added the torque wing recently.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, But, I'm interested..

http://thunderproducts.com/intelajet-from-thunder-products/

Now I'm hunting for torque wing..

Sounds like a wrestling move..

Oohhh, look out! Ohhh, this is over, he's gonna hafta tap out,,

Yeah, Jim, once your opponents got ya in the Torque Wing hold, it's just over, Nobody can get outta that.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/16 at 09:29:19

My billfold tapped out on the torque wing..
I'm still a believer in the intake being tuned and I think the potential performance gains from getting it right on that end might be as good as slapping a Dyna on and going to the lumpier cam,,
I can see building a torque wing, but I don't see why a three sided wouldn't be able to get the airflow straightened out..
I'm wondering what improvements might be had by working inside the intake hose that feeds the carb.
And someone was recently talking about the adjustable length intake runner.

I think That needs some exploration..
I'm thinking it's time to build the Old Feller air filter,
I'm also wondering how much top end speed gets killed by
A windshield and saddlebags . That's shoving some air around,

I'm not concerned about it not running 100 MPH, but I do want it to be inhaling and exhaling well and breathing a
stoichiometrically balanced mixture..

I gutted the header pipe on the 05 model,, sliced it up, removed the inner pipe, had it welded up, and put the Supertrapp on it. And increased the airbox volume.
I DIDN'T run trials before messing with it.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/25/16 at 10:12:37

I went down 4 jet sizes to start, 190 to a 170 was still rich , then went down again, I would have to check my jet index to find out what's in it now! At work check it later

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/25/16 at 12:24:08

Dang Ruttly

I think the factory jet is about 152.5 ... :-?

I'm beginning to think your motor isn't stock ?

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/25/16 at 13:00:07

JOG, a 3 fin would work but the quad is better, air rushing under the wing up to half throttle is straighten out & speeds up then you go above half throttle is almost like a secondary more efficiently draws fuel. Works great with the UFO

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/25/16 at 13:03:00

Far from stock just not to Radical,lots of testing

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/25/16 at 15:08:10

MM , Using the vm36 mikuni that lancer sells & jetting is different
When done will post start & finished settings for UFO & Dialajet
Quad Flow Wing requires no jetting changes.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by MMRanch on 11/25/16 at 18:44:41

Ruttly

On one of our dragon weeks :

we had just come through a long mountain pass that opened into a big valley (no not the TV show) , well the road went in a strait line right up the valley's hilly terrain. Lancer and OldFeller opened them up (I did too) , but they took-off , I caught -up later (stock engine). ::)

They had to be pushing 100 or so . I was pushing 90 .

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/25/16 at 19:53:15

Yeah I'm very surprised of how well they run , 90 no problem and pretty sure it will pull 100 to 105 and chassis is very stable just haven't stretched her legs out yet. But cruises at 70 in 5th crack it and she starts pulling,passing is easy. Keep in mind I not done extracting the last few h/p out of her. She has more to give !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Dave on 11/26/16 at 03:43:57

I did the "ton" a couple years ago just to see if I could. Getting to 80 was quick, 90 took a bit longer....it seemed to take a while to get to 100.
(Probably because I was afraid of getting locked up if I got caught).

http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Fender_016.jpg

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/26/16 at 07:35:53

Yeah I'm kinda picky about what road I can safely pull that ton on . And not so sure about that RYCA speedometer , maybe I'll get one of those cheap bicycle speedometers

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by batman on 11/26/16 at 08:24:07

I checked out Tunder site , and found their VIP insert for the carb was interesting.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/26/16 at 09:31:49

VIP insert ? must have missed that one

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/26/16 at 11:20:06

May tew..

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/26/16 at 15:17:13

Lancer, When I bought the vm36 from you the initial jetting was perfect with the engine info I gave you,no adjustment needed.
When I added UFO I cut pilot setting in half , from a 20 to a 10 , tried a 12.5 but was too rich ,also added QuadWing too,doesn't affect jetting.
When DAJ was added went from 190 to 170 but still rich,next I went down to 160 power was lacking,currently at 165. Being at 68 ft of elevation am trying to jet so DAJ so most of my adjustment selections are leaner and maybe 1 richer than desired setting
I still have some other tricks for the VM I want to try to further acceleration.
I been tuning Since April and I am getting close. So when it finally goes to Dr Dyno only adjustment I'll need to make will be the DAJ or Intelajet if I upgrade !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/26/16 at 15:26:32

For all that have had their bike on a dyno I would like to hear results
I don't hide anything , I enjoy sharing what little I know , it helps everyone when everyone shares their experiences,knowledge,success
So post your dyno results !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by LANCER on 11/26/16 at 17:34:09

1B3C3D3D2530490 wrote:

Did you drill the little hole in the hood on the top of the needle jet ?

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/26/16 at 18:28:46

Lancer , No didn't drill atomizer. As you can tell I am a information parasite, I know all kinds of people coast to coast and they in turn know other people and I pick everyone brains that have desired info. Anyways , one night a friend called asking for jetting info for a Yamaha xt500 with a vm36 so we traded info. I told him if he wanted good TT/XT/SR info to get a hold of Dan Whie of White Bros.and little did I know they are friends. So he called him and then called me back with Dan'S jetting specs. Funny how things work sometimes.
Sorry about the long story
Anyways cut the atomizer down I'll have to check spec sheet for how far and also remove air jet !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/26/16 at 18:58:52

Lancer , I was told not to drill cause they crack & break off then get sucked in. Lowering atomizer gets things happening sooner as slide comes up and with the UFO should work great.
Remember I'm not after good fuel mileage , I'm after outstanding acceleration
Once you cure the engines breathing problem its all about the pipe & trying to dial the carb for acceleration perfection and that takes as much patience as it does time !!!

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by LANCER on 11/27/16 at 04:41:17

Drilling a small hole in a good piece of brass will not lead to it breaking off.
The hole allows a little more air through and leans the mix, enabling the use of a larger pilot jet.
There is a range in the size of the hole.
Why remove the air jet ?

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/27/16 at 10:28:43

Lancer , I just got spec with no explanation.Today I will find spec sheet and find out a reason to remove air jet. I think they are both related somehow, I will get my books out , get back to you.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/27/16 at 11:13:20

Lancer , I would think a hole in the atomizer could possibly do more harm than good to air flow. The shape of the atomizer creates a vaccuum behind drawing the fuel up,drilling a hole in it might disturb that vaccuum.
Spec sheet shows lower atomizer height to 3mm high and as I suspected the air jet is related,the lowering reduces vaccuum behind and removing air jet increases air flow moving more fuel up to atomizer. I think this might help with off idle snap cause almost as soon as slide starts up it starts drawing & atomizing fuel and with UFO & QFW have some awesome throttle response ! Sudco manual shows circuits page 4 fig 6 & 7
Another tiny bit of performance I was missing , there is something wrong with me , most people would have been happy with this carb the way you jetted it , I just wasn't happy knowing I can't get a little more out of it. I so want to finish this bike and get it on a dyno ! Thanks for the help !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/29/16 at 20:21:46

Lancer , So what is the range of the hole sizes when drilling atomizer. Do you have a chart to post or any other info ? Would like to try it before I lower it. So l can compare results. Looking to improve off idle snap. Back to short intake and small foam filter. Thanks

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Serowbot on 11/30/16 at 09:01:45

Humid air is also thicker... making wind resistance stronger...
...(sound travels faster in humid air, yer' muffy will will sound louder)...

I love all the decel blats I get on humid days... ;D

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by batman on 11/30/16 at 18:07:53

VIP can be found under the listing-Quad flow torque wing , below DAJ and Intelajet etc.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/16 at 18:35:50

Well NOW ya tell me!
What was the question?

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/30/16 at 19:57:12

Thanks Batman , we all thought you were smoking something ! ;D

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 11/30/16 at 20:14:54

Wow Batman I still don't see a vip !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 12/01/16 at 04:17:29

Found it Batman sounds good it you got a flatside mikuni

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by LANCER on 12/01/16 at 05:16:37

644342425A4F360 wrote:

Didn't you get the yellow UFO sheet with the product ?
On page 6 of the yellow sheet it suggests that if you are running too rich after reducing the pilot jet size by 1/2 from stock that you drill a hole through the needle jet "nozzle" using a #55 drill bit to start, and going larger only if needed. It says that you should not go larger than a #40 drill bit, however this was originally written for snowmobiles in the far north. It is much colder up there and I found that I needed to go slightly larger on the LS650 since I lived in SC and now in OK with a milder climate.
I do not remember the conversion for the drill sizes but I do have a little book in the shop with that info and will go out and get it later this morning.
It is 23* outside right now.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Dave on 12/01/16 at 05:39:19

0C010E0305125257600 wrote:

It is 23* outside right now.

Sounds like the advice for snowmobiles might be applicable!

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by batman on 12/01/16 at 11:33:02

Rutty, while it's true that the VIP is designed for the flat side ,I think the idea could be adapted to almost any carb and maybe used with the torque wing on the inlet side, could boost performance from idle to at least half throttle.If it works as claimed we might even be able to use a smaller or stock idle jet and get a little better fuel mileage ,while still having a decent idle.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 12/01/16 at 12:16:51

I'm no expert , don't know much about the stock carb. But the 36mm vm mikuni gives great acceleration and then add the UFO & QFTW to really get things moving, I like this carb for it's price & tune ability

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 12/01/16 at 19:05:21

Lancer , Guilty as charged , I must have been looking at the pictures. Gotta go dinner is ready.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 12/01/16 at 20:24:14

Lancer, Now that you explained like that , don't you think that drilling a hole in atomizer to lean it would be the same as removing air jet allowing more air to pass thru ?
Or lowering atomizer to make things happen sooner as slide comes up and removing air jet to help lowered atomizer do its job ?
Both scenarios might require a richer pilot in my case up to a 12.5 from 10
But I think I'm a little rich there already and pretty sure a 10 is the smallest pilot available!
I have all kinds of drill charts at work.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 12/01/16 at 20:52:58

Batman , If you try to make one use caution, make sure it don't move ,you wouldn't want it stuck under slide and not be able to shut the throttle down

Most of all be Safe !

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by batman on 12/02/16 at 08:48:59

Ruttly ,first off you probably don't need this as they don't make one for carbs smaller than 38mm and stated that smaller carb don't have atomization problems . If I were to build one for the bs-40 I'd be sure it in no way contacted the slide.It looks like like they made their VIP with a flange that fits over the front of the carb and would set in the same grove used to mount the carb. that should stop any movement.

Title: Re: Jetting question
Post by Ruttly on 12/02/16 at 10:02:10

I have a BSA flat tracker and once a piece of the slide broke off and got wedged in groove holding at about 3/4 throttle what a ride then it came loose and passed thru engine and got trapped in muffler get this with no damage to engine one tiny mark on piston,good to have big valves !