SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Start logic:
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1479440673

Message started by Bruce Parker on 11/17/16 at 19:44:33

Title: Start logic:
Post by Bruce Parker on 11/17/16 at 19:44:33

Should I be able to start my new to me 2002, in neutral, kick stand up without the clutch pulled in?--regards---Bruce

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Rodger on 11/17/16 at 19:58:14

It's a quirk of the Savage/S40. Unlike many bikes, the starter will only engage when the clutch lever is pulled in, whether in neutral or in gear.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kris01 on 11/18/16 at 04:47:17

Yep, that's how it works.

But, is it electrically controlled by a switch that can be jumped or something, or is it a mechanical quirk? In other words, could it be modified so you don't need the clutch pulled in to start?

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Dave on 11/18/16 at 05:14:03

5F667D672425140 wrote:

When you push the starter button....the circuit is not complete unless the clutch lever is pulled, and the clutch switch is "closed" to allow the power to head to the starter solenoid.

You can unplug the two wires up at the clutch lever, and connect them together......and no more safety switch at the clutch lever.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/18/16 at 06:05:06

It's a good safety switch. But truth be known, I couldn't tell you if it is there or not because I've been pulling in the lever since I was 10 years old. It's just a good habit.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kris01 on 11/19/16 at 09:24:30

Thanks Dave. That's what I thought. If the bike were in gear (with the clutch safety jumped), the starter would roll the bike forward...or try to.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by verslagen1 on 11/19/16 at 10:01:19

RYCA has a circuit that will deactivate the clutch safety if it's in neutral.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by batman on 11/19/16 at 10:32:06

I'm with Gary on this one .My clutch switch messed up long ago ,so I bypassed it by connecting the leads together ,but I always pull in the clutch when starting any bike ,it disengages the transmission so the bike can't jump forward if I'm starting a warmed engine in gear.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kris01 on 11/19/16 at 18:03:19

The original question has been answered so here's a slightly off topic one.

I park my bike in gear so when I crank it again, it's already in gear. I've heard you should start it in neutral. When the engine is cold and I crank it, I sometimes have to walk with the bike about 6 inches or so as the clutch is dragging the bike forward while cranking. Is this hurting anything? Maybe I should just get in the habit of shifting into neutral first!

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kenny G on 11/19/16 at 18:37:00

Kris,

I too park my bike in gear.

Before I attempt to start the engine I pull the clutch in and push the bike back and forth to break the clutch plates loose. This way I never hear any clunking when I put the bike in gear after the engine is started.

I do start the engine in neutral with the clutch lever pulled in.

Kenny G

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Dave on 11/20/16 at 03:23:41

1B2239236061500 wrote:

Maybe I should just get in the habit of shifting into neutral first!

When the bike is cold, the oil is not warmed up and is thick......yes.

After the bike is warmed up.....I still start in neutral.

The only time I start in gear is when I screw up and stall the bike in traffic.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kris01 on 11/20/16 at 11:31:25

I've been told by several people not to crank the bike in gear but no one has ever really said why. I'm sure it's better to crank it in neutral regardless. I'll start doing that from now on.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by batman on 11/20/16 at 16:12:13

If your just stopping for fuel ,etc. a short time, I park in gear and restart,if the bike is in tuned it should start right up and not put any stress on the battery or starter motor been doing it that way for 21 yrs on the same starter motor.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Dave on 11/20/16 at 17:16:56

655C475D1E1F2E0 wrote:

I've been told by several people not to crank the bike in gear but no one has ever really said why.

When the oil is cold and thick, the drag from the clutch makes the starter work harder - and that causes the engine to spin slower and/or require more amperage from the battery. Once the engine is warmed up and the oil is thinner - the clutch has less drag......the starter has an easier job to do.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kris01 on 11/20/16 at 19:58:44

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the clutch lever is pulled in, it shouldn't matter if the transmission is in gear. The clutch still spins in the cold, thick oil. The starter shouldn't see any additional load as it isn't turning the transmission gears.

Just playing Devil's Advocate. Thanks Dave! You're a wealth of info! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by ohiomoto on 11/20/16 at 20:38:21

Dave is correct, there will be extra drag when cold. Get a bike with a kick start and you'll see that there is extra drag.

When the bike is in gear you are turning the gears even if the clutch is disengaged. When the bike is in neutral, you're not trying to spin those gears. And as Dave pointed out, the oil is thick and sticky when cold thus requiring extra effort to spin those gears.

In all my years racing MX, I never wasted the effort trying to start my bikes in gear when cold. The risk of flooding it out wasn't worth it. Even with my later bikes that would start on the first kick, it wasn't worth it. Once warmed up, it was usually possible to get it started in gear but if the bike didn't light up after 2-3 kicks, I would always find neutral and it would start right up.

It's probably not a big deal with our bikes, but I'd rather not put that extra stress on my battery and starter.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by badwolf on 11/20/16 at 21:37:01

In a constant mesh tranny when the input shaft is turning, ALL of the gears are turning. (hence the term constant mesh) When you hear grinding gears, it's not the teeth but the engagement cogs on their sides. The clunk you hear when putting the bike in gear is the cogs on the gear sides not the teeth. When in neutral, none of the side cogs on them are engaged, so they all turn easy. If the bike is in gear, and the clutch is pulled in, the clutch is forced to spin within itself so the input shaft won't spin, creating drag. Cold oil would create more drag than hot oil. But the extra drag is coming from within the clutch, not from spinning the gears.
In theory, a dry clutch would have less drag than a wet clutch.

But we live on earth, not in theory.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Kris01 on 11/20/16 at 21:43:36

I guess I'm confusing myself with the way a clutch works in a car vs a motorcycle. Push the clutch pedal down in a car and nothing behind the flywheel is attached to the engine. The starter only spins the engine. Apparently motorcycles are different animals. Thanks for the education!

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by badwolf on 11/20/16 at 21:58:33

Kris, You are right, with a car there is much better disengagement tween the two. But they still have a safety switch on the clutch.

Title: Re: Start logic:
Post by Dave on 11/21/16 at 02:31:11

556C776D2E2F1E0 wrote:

The car has a dry clutch, the motorcycle clutch is bathed in the engine oil. The clutch has several steel plates, and several fiber plates, and they alternate (same way you make Lasagna). When the clutch is released (clutch lever pulled in), the spring pressure is transferred to the cable, and the plates are not held together by spring pressure. The engine oil that is between the plates does cause drag between the plates when the engine oil is cold and thick, and this drag is reduced when the engine oil is warm and does not stick the plates together nearly as much. When you take a clutch apart it becomes it would be easy to understand, as the plates want to stick together from the surface tension of the oil between them.

Here is a video that shows how the clutch works, however the can make multi-plate clutches wet (runs in oil), or dry (Ducati). The dry clutches don't exhibit the same drag when the engine is cold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcYsV063lk8
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcYsV063lk8[/media]