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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Narrowing the stock belt? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1479080819 Message started by Armen on 11/13/16 at 15:46:59 |
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Title: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/13/16 at 15:46:59 I love the belt drive, but the width is almost comical. Unless Suzuki has found the world's weakest belts, it seems that 1-1/2" wide is a bit much. If I were to guess, I'd say Suzuki picked that with because it looks cool. Besides being goofy looking, it kicks the left shock out so far the bike looks bowlegged. I found an outfit that can narrow down the belt, and in fact has modified belts for other bike applications. Of course that means modifying the sprockets as well, but I'm game for that. Just wondering if anyone else thought about or tried this? Not asking for permission, just information. thanks, -Armen |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/13/16 at 16:19:11 Why not go to a chain? Changing gear ratios is easy, it's appropriate for a cafe racer and it's a lot less work then modifying the existing pulley system. I'm upgrading to an x-ring chain, want my roller? |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/13/16 at 16:20:58 I prefer a belt to a chain. Clean and quiet. No adjustments. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by norm92de on 11/13/16 at 21:07:17 I like the idea too but it will be a lot of work for a small gain in appearance. It would have been nice if Suzuki had made the belt 1" wide in the first place. Even a Hardly has a narrower belt? :) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Violent_Rage on 11/13/16 at 23:48:18 I'm wondering if in some way you can use the Harley Parts. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Dave on 11/14/16 at 03:12:37 The Kawasaki EN454 and the KZ750 used a Bando belt that was the same width as the Savage - but in a different length. I use the EN454 front pulley and KZ750 rear pulley to do the double pulley conversion to get better gearing for cruising. The Kawasaki KZ440 used a narrower belt. The rear pulley from this bike can come in the 65 tooth pulley.....but they are a bit heavy as they are cast iron, and it adds a couple of pounds to the rear wheel - and they also come in a 60 tooth version that most likely would make for too high of gearing and I have no idea what length belt you would need. You will need to adapt the 4 bolt mount to a 6 bolt mount for the Savage to use a KZ440 pulley in the rear. 65 tooth: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Kawasaki-KZ440D-KZ440-D4-Rear-Belt-Drive-Pulley-Sprocket-Fair-Used-108314-/281242760413?hash=item417b5ff4dd:g:JCsAAOSwv0tVbOxQ&vxp=mtr The 60 tooth version appears to have an aluminum center and a cast iron outer section: http://www.ebay.com/itm/S33-NOS-OEM-GENUINE-KAWASAKI-80-83-KZ440D-60T-NEW-REAR-DRIVE-PULLEY-42041-5002-/281252288033?fits=Model%3AKZ440B&hash=item417bf15621:m:m5pIlLsBwOfrhm7lSPM-rTA&vxp=mtr When I did my Cafe' conversion....I put the license plate over on the left side to hide the offset shock and bulky belt drive. Here is the home page for the folks that build the Savage and Kawasaki belts...it would be nice if you could get some strength values from them. http://www.bandousa.com/ |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by ohiomoto on 11/14/16 at 05:18:37 Dave, you forgot the link to the "home page" you mentioned. Armen likes to put lots of holes in everything. I'm seeing an opportunity for more holes! :) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Dave on 11/14/16 at 05:32:00 32353432303229325D0 wrote:
Sorry....fixed it! http://www.bandousa.com/ |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 11/14/16 at 06:48:20 Gary , Let me know how that xring chain works out , I didn't have side clearance with the oring chain I have and went with a standard chain ! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Kris01 on 11/14/16 at 18:42:17 6562636567657E650A0 wrote:
You noticed too? ;D |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/14/16 at 19:58:43 Armen really wanted to be a dentist. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/23/16 at 17:58:32 Holes? Since you mention it... Here is the rear pulley with a few holes and windows. I arbitrarily picked a width of 1 1/8", down from the stock 1 1/2". I prob could go to 1", but decided to err on the side of caution. Found a guy who can narrow down the belt. Will figure out how I want to deal with the front Kawi pulley next. The stock rear Suzi-Q rear pulley weighs 5 lbs, which is WAY more than an aluminum sprocket. At least the belt is lighter than a chain. Got the weight of the pulley down to 4 lbs. Have to make a new retaining/shoulder plate for the machined-off outer. Drilled and tapped 4mm holes in the perimeter to screw the new plate on. Goal is to be able to move the shock directly over the existing lower mount by using a clevis on the bottom of the shock. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/24/16 at 06:10:49 A little clearer. Holes and windows. Width narrowed by 3/8". Holes drilled for 4mm bolts to hold the new (not-yet-made) outer ring. I'll dummy it up and see how much shock clearance this gives me. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by norm92de on 11/24/16 at 12:55:43 Nice job Armen. You really are a determined fellow aren't you. Make sure you keep us up to date with plenty of pictures. :) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/24/16 at 14:17:37 Thanks Norm. Will do! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by norm92de on 11/26/16 at 13:53:18 Armen I guess you reversed the pulley so that your new retaining ring is now on the outside? Norman. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/26/16 at 14:59:56 Nope. Machined off the outer ring and part of the pulley so that the belt will still run tight to the inside, but be narrower. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 11/29/16 at 17:38:50 Norm, Latest version of the truth: I decided to narrow the rear pulley to 1". At that width, the offset is the same on both sides. Since I wiped off the outer, stronger cast side, I am going to flip the pulley around and use the bolted-on steel ring as the outboard retaining ring. Then I'll make a thinner inner ring. Gaining over 1/2" from doing this. Hoping that along with the shocks from Chris Livengood, which seem to be a bit narrower at the bottom than the RYCA ones, I may be able to center the shock over the lower eyelet rather than running it alongside as it is stock. Next step is to mangle the front Kawi pulley and send the belt off to be narrowed. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/16 at 17:59:48 I'm surprised you don't just drill holes in it and tear it on the dotted line. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/13/16 at 19:12:28 So, the flog continues. I narrowed both pulleys to 1" wide. Made a new outer ring for the front pulley. Flopped the rear one over, so the OEM steel inner ring is now outboard. Might not bother to run an inner retaining ring on the rear pulley. Rear pulley lost about a pound. The front one about 1/4 lb less than stock, 3/4 lb less than a stock Kawi pulley. This allowed me to move the left shock inboard. Chopped over an inch off the top shock mount/protrusion/thingy sticking out of the frame. Drilled into the upper mounting stud with an 8.5mm bit, then tapped the hole to 10x1.5mm. Now the top of the shock mounts on a 10mm bolt, which is threaded into the frame. On the bottom, I 'm using a clevis on the left shock bottom, and an eye on the right shock bottom. OEM, the left shock sits out further than the right one, so moving it inboard, and leaving the right one as is, makes the shocks look symmetrical. While I was at it I drilled the lower right shock mount out and tapped it to 8x1.25, so now a bolt holds the shock onto the lower shock mount. On the lower left, I chopped up the clevis supplied by Chris at Livengood and widened it to clear the lower mount. The problem with the clevis mounts, is that they add about 15mm to the length of the shock. Even with the clevis threaded all the way in, the eyelet mount on the right side I barely engaged into the bottom of the shock. It's all dummied up now, but I'll have to modify a clevis mount for the left shock so that the right shock will have enough thread engagement when the shocks are set to the same length. As of now, the left shock with the clevis is about 13 3/8" I'd like to shorten that a bit. Talked to the guy chopping the belt It should be done within a week. Using a straightedge, it looks life the belt (cut to 1" wide) will clear the shock. Just bolts on! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by ohiomoto on 12/14/16 at 06:07:00 Going the extra mile there Armen! It looks good. A lot of work, but it looks good. I'm not sure I like the not matching lower mounts on the shocks, but I like the narrowed rear end. "Might not bother to run an inner retaining ring on the rear pulley." This, I DO NOT recommend! I threw a chain once when I was still racing motocross and it's no fun having your rear wheel lock up at speed. And I was on dirt. Just not worth the risk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBZWjwHgveY |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/14/16 at 07:24:37 The non-matching lowers were the only way to have the shocks with the same offset. If I do the same lower mount style on both, the right shock will be inboard. Unless I do some really wacky lower mount. I thought about the shoulder or the belt. Looked at the rear pulley on my bud's F800 BMW. No inner guard. Early Ducs had inner and outer guides on the cam belt pulleys. Later ones deleted the outer guide on the top pulley. I did drill and tap the inner edge of the rear pulley. I i find a big piece of thin aluminum scrap, I'll prob make one. Next problem is that the clevis is longer than the eyelet mount. Right now the eyelet on the lower right is only engaged by a few threads into the shock. Have to make a new (shorter) eyelet for the lower left so that I can make the right shock shorter. Just bolts on! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Dave on 12/14/16 at 07:43:18 I believe Harley rear pulleys only have a shoulder on one side.....I wonder if the pulley is machined with a very slight angle to the teeth - so that the belt will not slide off the open side? (The belt rides on the top of the teeth - the belt teeth do not bottom out in grooves). |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by ohiomoto on 12/14/16 at 08:45:50 I hear you on the limited shock mounting options. I might prefer putting the U on the left side of the swingarm but maybe I wouldn't like that either. No big deal either way. And I don't hate it either. Hell, even if I did, it's your bike. (Plus I wouldn't even comment if I did hate it!) Someone got paid a lot of money to make sure the belt on your bud's F800 won't fall off! It shouldn't be hard to adjust the belt so that it wants to hold the outside of the pulley. My worries would be if the wheel adjusters came loose and the wheel were to slip or what might happen to the belt as the swingarm travels through it's arc. Sure these are unlikely problems, but you already have a slightly loose belt and I doubt your chainline is perfect (mine isn't even close), etc. I just don't want you getting slammed to the ground there bud! It's not fun. :) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by ohiomoto on 12/14/16 at 08:53:34 Plus I'm excited to see your build. You've teased us enough that I'm anticipating greatness. :) So don't go getting hurt before posting pictures and a detailed build! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/14/16 at 17:22:07 Three front pulleys. The stock Suzi-Q one, the +2 teeth Kawi one modified to fit the Savage, and a Kawi pulley narrowed to 1" and modified to fit the Savage. Stock Suzi-Q is 2.2 lbs, stock Kawi is 2.6 lbs, modified and narrowed Kawi is 1.9 lbs. Changed the socket head Allens to stainless button head Allens. A little nicer. Rear pulley is approx 1 lb lighter than stock. Haven't weighed the belt, but it'll be 2/3 the weight of stock (cutting it down from 1.5" to 1"). |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/15/16 at 10:18:01 Very nice work If I get rid of the dual purpose tires & get some light weight street tires & some of those super thin transparent inner tubes made by Trojan might be able to get tracker weight down to 305 lbs !!! :o |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/15/16 at 16:22:47 Ruttly, Goal is as close to 300 lbs and 40 HP ;) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/15/16 at 19:42:02 Armen you can get it done,if anyone can you can,just don't fill that gas tank before you weigh it. 40 H/P is easily obtainable ! I would bet mine is closer to 45, 50 would make me proud. My next savage engine will hit 50 H/P. Very close to final tune and off to see Dr. Dyno in Febuary. Seat & paint don't really concern me at this point , a killer dyno run does !!! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/16/16 at 02:25:51 If what I've read is correct, the stock wet weight is around 380 lbs. RYCA says their kits get you down in the 320 range. With an aluminum tank and a bunch of other lighter bits, I think 300 wet is possible. In it's present incarnation, it'll be a stock top end with a Lancer bumpstick, Mikuni RS40, RYCA muffler, etc. Next go round it'll be a high compression 695 with a fondled head. By that point, 40 HP sounds pretty attainable. We'll see. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by ohiomoto on 12/16/16 at 06:48:32 7E4D525A513F0 wrote:
When?!!! We are waiting! Ha, ha |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/16/16 at 11:44:10 Lots of bad habits that take lots of time.... |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/16/16 at 12:36:07 My only bad habit is my addiction To MOTORCYCLES If I ever become wealthy or win the lotto it will create my new job of building motorcycles ,10 hours a day ,5 days a week and never again work on the weekend ! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/16/16 at 12:45:18 Is there a Motorcycles Anonymous, ya know a seven step program ? Case I feel the need to quit and be healthy. NEVER HAPPEN !!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Dave on 12/17/16 at 04:49:53 I think you need a "4 Stroke Program" to cure a motorcycle related obsession........or does that make it worse? :-? |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/17/16 at 07:35:45 Sometimes the only way to get over wanting something is to just get enough of it. I'm clearly not there yet. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/17/16 at 10:55:05 Good thing I have a job,it temporarily breaks constant thoughts of motorcycles. Till break when I start lurking on SS ! ;D I do have issues , I will never change , it keeps me sane ! Someone please define sane ! ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Kenny G on 12/17/16 at 11:37:11 Ruttly, Sane, sure as hell isn't you or me......LOL Kenny :-/ |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/17/16 at 12:06:45 Kenny, Thanks for clarifying that for me. As Lancer said "I am not alone". I try to inform others that it's a sickness,addiction,obsession but most won't listen. I will sleep better tonight knowing it's ok to be me. I must have the greatest wife in the world , to recognize my faults and never says anything other than dinners ready,last night she brought dinner to the garage cause she knew I wouldn't stop to eat !!!! |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by verslagen1 on 12/17/16 at 12:20:19 You know when you got a good wife when you come home late one night with a red smudge on your collar and she says... 'well that's an improvement... that red grease is a lot easier to get out then the black sh!t' |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/17/16 at 12:25:14 L O L ;D |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by norm92de on 12/17/16 at 13:10:17 You guys are sick. Maybe in a nice way ;D I guess we are all afflicted in one way or another. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 12/17/16 at 14:40:32 We Know !!! ;D |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/18/16 at 07:07:16 I had to do something to make the shocks the same length. The clevis adds length to the shock, which hurts in two ways-a) I didn't want the shocks to be any longer, and b) with the clevis on the left shock, and the eyelet on the right one, the eyelet had almost no thread engagement into the shock. So, I took the other clevis I had, had the 8mm bolt hole TIGed up, moved the hole up as much as I could (and still clear the swingarm mount nubbin). Then I removed the locknut from the left shock and Loctitied the clevis into the shock. Not too worried about it unscrewing. With those two mods, the eyelet on the right shock can be screwed all the way in and still have a locknut. This way, if I need to adjust the lengths of the shocks to agree with each other, I'll do it with the right shock. I also had to widen the clevis on the left shock to clear the Suzi-Q lower mount on the swingarm. Hopefully the narrowed (to 1") belt arrives this week. Then I'll dummy the whole thing up, and check the belt tension/slack situation again. And maybe get back to wiring the beast. Right now it looks like spaghetti warfare :o |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/18/16 at 09:18:16 Anyone who looks at my post count knows I've been here a while. Also, I lost a good number of posts when justin o guy quit working, then justin o guy 1 quit, and in the eleven years of seeing people come and go I've seen some really groundbreaking stuff. Some truly gorgeous paint work, some really clever problem solving, but nobody has ever just said That belt doesn't Have to be so wide, and that shock doesn't Have to be so asymmetrically located. I'm gonna fix that. I'm watching this closely, and digging it. Some day, someone will get one Savage and do everything you can do. Of course, the chain mod AND belt trimming won't exactly work together.. The cam timing with the worn chain idea is possibly the coolest solution to an everyday problem. Not to take anything away from the Versy. I think I'm impressed by it because no parts are needed, but a Eureka moment, seeing that Okay, if I advance the cam timing a tooth on the gear, that is too much, but if I retard the gear one spline, then it will work.. That's some moment.. When I go into mine I'm gonna add a spring to the Versy, I think the spring from the stock petcock will do nicely. They put a good flat end on it on both ends. Might be enough to do two,, not sure,, but I have a cam chain soaking in oil, and, my future SIL told me that for Christmas he's having a guy get the Kawasaki W650 cleaned up and fixed up and ready to go, so, I'll be able to do a complete makeover on the Savage and not be without a bike. Question is, does it need it? |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/18/16 at 09:30:33 Thanks Justin, I've def picked up more than a few good ideas from this forum. I feel very lucky. Glad to share some ideas. -Armen |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by norm92de on 12/19/16 at 10:49:21 FWIW I think the cam timing chicanery by Armen is the coolest idea. :) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/19/16 at 11:09:16 Aw, thanks ;) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by hotrod on 12/19/16 at 13:12:14 Narrowing the belt is too much of a hassle . I would keep the belt guard on and just not look at it..... unless it brakes. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 12/19/16 at 13:19:28 No one said you had to ;) |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/19/16 at 14:46:27 Ever seen how flat belts stay centered on convex pulleys? |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 01/21/17 at 06:06:26 So, I finally got the belt back from the place I set it out to be cut down. Somehow, I had myself convinced that there were steel cords in the belt. Looking at the cut belt, I realized there weren't. Thought about dumb, simple ways to cut the other belt I have (can't ride around with a one-of-a-kind belt). Settled on trying the table saw. Did a test pass, and all looked well. So, I just set the guide at 1" and made a million light passes. Voila! Nice clean cut. No melted rubber or nasty edges. Only took about 25 minutes. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 01/21/17 at 10:21:26 Is the edge of the belt tapered ? I can't remember ! How much did it cost to have it cut down ? |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Armen on 01/21/17 at 17:36:14 Edges of the belt are straight. I paid the guy $115 for the work and the return shipping. He did it on a milling machine with a circular saw/knife blade in the mill and the belt in a jig. Very clean, but it took him forever. Very talented guy who does a lot of belt drive stuff. Once I had the belt he made, i figured I'd wing it with my spare one. Seems to have worked. |
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Title: Re: Narrowing the stock belt? Post by Ruttly on 01/21/17 at 19:19:16 You be careful with those talented fingers on that table saw ! |
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