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Message started by Hoodlum333 on 11/07/16 at 15:33:29

Title: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/07/16 at 15:33:29

Hey all, new guy here. Happy to be part of the savage club. Just purchased an awesome 87 bobber and two weeks later - no start. I was engaged in a conversation while trying to start it and, given my unfamiliarity with the decomp lever, I held it down the whole time while trying to start it. After a few failed attempts at starting, all I got was a buzzing starter relay and no start.

Have 2 batteries, both tested fine. Stripped the guts out of the fake oil can under the seat to expose the horrible rats nest of wires...found the buzzing starter. Disconnected and cleaned all connections - no joy. Jumped the relay - nothing. Hit the ignition - still buzzing.

Now, if I give the starter a good whack, I can get it to turn by both jumping the relay and/or direct power to the starter....but it turns real slow and only a couple times before it quits.

Why/how would whacking the starter effect the ability to jump the relay? Placing the screwdriver across both connections does nothing until I whack the starter. Could my holding down the decomp lever have damaged something? I did notice through my caveman testing tactics that the resistance from the lever has fluctuated from nonexistent to correct resistance, which is weird because the best i can tell it is just a spring.

I have yet to disconnect the starter and test it.

So given all this, does it sound like the starter needs to be replaced?

By the way, there is no kick stand safety and the bike has been in neutral when starting. Thanks in advance for the help!

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Steve H on 11/07/16 at 16:24:01

Sounds like the brushes are shot in the starter. When you hit it (whack it) you shift the brushes a little and get them to make contact. They quickly get back to not making contact. The other option is that you overheated the starter motor and dissolved the glue holding one of the magnets in place. It's hitting the rotating part of the motor and keeping it from turning. Unless you ran it for several minutes non-stop, I doubt this is it.

The decomp lever is attached to a valve lifter inside the head cover. When you push the lever, it pushes the exhaust valve down just a little to allow compression to escape so the engine can turn over easier. You should only hold it down 1 or 2 revolutions before releasing it. The idea is for the starter to have an easier time getting the engine spinning. Resistance from the lever will vary depending on the position of the valves at the time it is actuated.

If you have someone in town who rebuilds electric motors or alternators, they can probably get you some brushes to replace the worn ones or replace them for you.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/07/16 at 16:35:42

Thanks Steve, that's what I feared. Wanted to double check before I drop a hundred bucks on a new starter. Having replaced them before, I know getting the starter to turn after hitting it is indicative of a failed/failing starter. Stinks because she's garaged now weeks after purchase. The conspiracy theorist in me things the prior owner might have known about it. Won't answer his phone :-/

As far as rebuild...I don't have the proper tools or know anyone to do it. Gonna check the forums before I spring for a new unit.

Any recommended reputable (and economic) retailers?

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/16 at 17:14:50

Wouldn't you take it apart after you replaced it?
Take it apart. See what is going on..
You're gonna have to build some retainers to keep the brushes in place to get the armature back in place.
If the magnets aren't busted up too bad they Can be put back in,, but, batteries and starters ? I want Good stuff starting it.. I can't push it.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/07/16 at 19:36:01

6A757374696E5F6F5F67757932000 wrote:

Yup....good call. Great youtube videos out there. I'll get some beer this weekend and crack her open - see what's going on. Thanks.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Steve H on 11/07/16 at 20:16:28

As long as the magnets are in place, it shouldn't be all that hard to put in brushes. The problem these days is finding the parts. You can't just go to the hardware store and pick up the brushes you need like in the old days. You've gotta find somebodythat deals in that stuff and then if they're in the repair business, they don't want to sell you the parts, they want you to bring it in for a $75 repair that consists of $6 worth of brushes and 10 minutes of their time. If it's a supply house, many of them won't sell to you unless you're in the business.

Here's a link to a starter rebuild kit on the bay for the LS650
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-rebuild-repair-kit-Suzuki-S650P-G-LS650P-H-J-LS650P-S-T-V-W-70-/351776073466?hash=item51e77ce6fa:m:mVhbe8XbFeEbbCPhJXBdIGg&vxp=mtr

That should get it assuming the armature isn't trashed and the magnets are still in place.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/07/16 at 20:20:33

58431A19181F1D122B0 wrote:

Here's a link to a starter rebuild kit on the bay for the LS650http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-rebuild-repair-kit-Suzuki-S650P-G-LS650P-H-J-LS650P-S-T-V-W-70-/351776073466?hash=item51e77ce6fa:m:mVhbe8XbFeEbbCPhJXBdIGg&vxp=mtr

That should get it assuming the armature isn't trashed and the magnets are still in place.

Yeah, I saw that one. It is possible that a thorough cleaning might do the trick, no?

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/16 at 22:00:46

Before you Buy anything, find out what is going on inside the starter.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Steve H on 11/08/16 at 04:15:09

It is possible that the armature is just gunked up with carbon or something and a cleaning will fix it. Like JOG said, you really should figure out what's going on inside it before ordering parts.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/08/16 at 19:16:05

So I've got the starter apart...man there is a metric sh!t ton of carbon. Before I took it apart, I did a bench test and it sparked with nothing. Tapped on it and tried again and it spun.

Brushes appear ok I guess...I will take a picture. Other than cleaning the carbon out, the only thing I notice is that the glue on one of the magnets is coming loose. It is still in there but is movable with slight pressure. Could this be the issue? Gonna clean her up and reassemble....see if that works.

I don't really know what to use (available around the house) to clean it or what will damage it. I have some CLP for cleaning carbon out of weapons, but I am not sure how well that will work with electrical components.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/08/16 at 19:16:48

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/08/16 at 19:18:41

And last one

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/08/16 at 19:25:03

Crap! Lookey here. Magnet's cracked. This mean I gotta replace it?

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/16 at 19:43:05

If it was a lawnmower I'd squirt Berrymans B12 at it and blow it clean with the compressor and run Stupid Glue in the crack and behind the magnets.
The brushes look like they are not pushing tight on the commutator.
An eraser or 1000 grit sandpaper is pretty good..
Brushes should be
Profiled
to the armature/commutator
Wrap the thing with sandpaper and rub the brushes to shape, If they are very wrong.. I can't tell from the picture.
I've had good luck patching mower starters, but I have never been more than five minutes from the house on one, either..

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/08/16 at 20:08:15

Well, got her back together and she spins like a top. brushes were real tight and had to pry them back together to slide the armature in. Cleaned out tons of carbon between the communicators.

One big problem though, I can get everything seated right. If I tighten her up, no spin. Loosen the bolts and she spins fine....but they are loose to an uncomfortable level where I can see definite movement on the ends when I press. Ugh....I will reattack tomorrow.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Yoshi on 11/09/16 at 03:15:45

Pm me if u want a used starter from a 87, 50$+ shipping

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/10/16 at 09:12:44

Got the starter spinning good, but still won't start. Cranks over fine with a direct connection but won't fire up. Tested the spark and it looks okay. Might be a little weak. Starter relay no longer buzzes with ignition switch now. Heard clicking sound from a relay marked with Omron G8D 27S. By the time I located the relay, it no longer clicks. WTF.....getting upset. Anyone got any ideas?

On a side note, tried to find a spark plug for this thing at advanced auto parts and they matched the original champion to NGK DCPR8E. The new plug doesn't spark. I will search the forums but does anyone know a compatible plug I can get at pep boys/auto zone/AAP? I know that is not the only issue but might be something needing replaced as well.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/10/16 at 09:15:04

7263724B4749435051494B220 wrote:

Pm me if u want a used starter from a 87, 50$+ shipping

Thanks Yoshi, but I got a guy willing to sell be starter and relay for 50 + shipping. I don't know if it's the starter anymore though.

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by verslagen1 on 11/10/16 at 10:12:51

The stock plug is listed as being
NGK DPR8EA-9, or ND X24EPR-U9

or if you need a hotter plug
NGK DPR7EA-9 or ND X22EPR-U9

Title: Re: Bad Starter?
Post by Hoodlum333 on 11/25/16 at 15:21:46

Just to close the loop on this thread - got a new starter and all is right with the world again. Thanks for everyone's assistance - I learned a great deal. And thanks to ohiomoto for a great deal on a used starter!