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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Rocker arm wear reference /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1478354612 Message started by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 07:03:32 |
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Title: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 07:03:32 I have no experience looking at rocker arms, so have no idea what the should look like. Mine looks worn I think, but... too much? No idea. Can you judge from the pictures? Rocker amrs: http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/Billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-05%2014.54.21.jpg http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/Billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-05%2014.55.36.jpg Cam shaft http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/Billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-05%2016.38.14.jpg http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/Billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-05%2016.39.21.jpg Bearing Surfaces: http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/Billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-03%2019.08.28.jpg http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/Billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-05%2019.36.29.jpg |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Dave on 11/05/16 at 07:47:18 They look badly worn to me. What does the cam look like? |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 08:17:02 Have not pulled it out yet, and still pointing downwards so I cannot see the top yet. Will most surely post a photo of that later as well. Sad to hear they look worn... Can they be fixed or do I need to look for replacement? |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by verslagen1 on 11/05/16 at 08:45:26 while they are galled, they are not badly worn. grind them smooth and polish them. but that may cause them to loose their hard finish. new rockers have a hard piece fitted on the end. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 08:53:20 I'm not an expert, but those cam lobes (correct name?) looks quite bad to me. Are we talking something that can be repaired, or replacements? If a repair is half-bad solution, then I'll most likely prefer looking for some replacements. Annoying they look so bad, but then again... better find it now, before something breaks completely. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 08:58:27 6C7F6869767B7D7F742B1A0 wrote:
Camshaft and rockers are quite expensive... 350$ for a new cam shaft and 120$ a piece for rocker arms. So new cam shaft and rocker arms would set me back almost 600$... Hope I can find some used on ebay that are still OK. Are cam shafts and rockers compatible across all years? |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by DavidP on 11/05/16 at 09:05:41 Those rockers look as bad as mine did when I replaced them, I think a pair was $94 but your experience may be different. I think that you should take the camshaft out and examine the bearing surfaces as well. This engine is well known for top end lubrication issues (which is why you should keep the idle speed at ~1000 rpm or better still start it and just drive off). If the bearing surfaces are shot the manual glibly states that the head should be replaced and that is hugely expensive at ~ $740. Hopefully you can live with the bearing surfaces and perhaps just polish the cam with some fine emery. Good luck tl;dr don't invest in new rockers if the head is shot. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Ruttly on 11/05/16 at 09:14:10 My evaluation from your pics is bad , bad , bad & bad , replace all. What happened did you run it low on oil ? |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 09:36:19 No, I have taken care to keep (good) oil on it and idle revs up, but the former owner may have abused it. No way for me to know. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Tocsik on 11/05/16 at 09:42:08 Mekh, Sorry you're seeing this wear. Can you let us know how many miles are on your bike, if you routinely kept the idle speed up, ran it low on oil or let it idle on the side stand frequently? The information may be useful to others. Thanks. Oops. Your post came while I was typing mine. Disregard. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by norm92de on 11/05/16 at 09:54:26 I hate to have to say this but they are, in my opinion, too far gone. Hope you will be able to find good used parts. Sadly Suzuki is very proud of their replacement parts. :'( Let us know what happens. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by SALB on 11/05/16 at 12:11:45 Assuming the head is still serviceable, My next thought would be if the cam is too far gone to be used as a core for a webcam. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by LANCER on 11/05/16 at 12:16:48 The cam and rockers are indeed bad but the cam may be repaired IF the bearing surfaces of the cam are not damaged like the lobes. The rockers must be replaced though; expect $110 |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/05/16 at 13:01:51 Bearing surfaces looks good both on the cam and head I think, so that's a good thing :) Cam repair... I ask a dealer I suppose? |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by LANCER on 11/05/16 at 13:41:21 042C2221490 wrote:
It costs no more to repair to stock spec's as it does to repair to Performance spec's. This is what I do. $299 with your cam. It takes a few weeks. PM me for shipping details if you are interested. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/16 at 15:14:36 That's a good deal. IDK what mods are allowed there. Someone said something about not being allowed to change intake or exhaust, something, I don't remember who,, or the details.. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/05/16 at 15:21:39 The cam and rockers show spalling so they need to be addressed. Your choices are weld and regrind or new parts. If the bearing surfaces are worn you have no choice but new parts. How many miles are on the engine and what were the oil change intervals? |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/06/16 at 01:13:08 There are 63.000 km on the bike and I have put around 15000 of them there. I have no history from before I bought it. I have changed oil quite often... Especially the first times, since it had been standing still a long time. Think I've changed oil every 2-3k km. Maybe it's easier to just state this... I read most of all, yes, all... threads on this forum, before I had put 500km on the bike, so have had a very good idea of how to take good care of my Savage from the beginning. Based on all the collective knowledge here, which is awsome... [ch128513] My personal guess at a reason is, that the previous owner have had the idle too low. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/06/16 at 01:26:10 47585E5944437242724A58541F2D0 wrote:
That should be no problem at all... As long as I don't increase power more than 20% I think it is, or cut in the frame then all is good. However... the 20% limit is from my experience more theoretical than practized around here. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/06/16 at 02:09:06 Updated main post with 2 more photos, showing bearing surfaces. I cannot feel any play in the cam shaft when placed in the bearing surfaces, so I think the surfaces are still OK. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by LANCER on 11/06/16 at 03:28:33 Your head bearing surfaces look to be ok. They have some scratching on them but they are usable after a little cleanup of the surface. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Dave on 11/06/16 at 04:46:26 Used rockers arms and cams that are in good condition are nearly impossible to find, as they are the first parts to show wear if the wrong oil is used. Since the cam bearings are not worn excessively, and the rocker arms and cam lobes are....I would place the blame on using an oil without an adequate amount of ZDDP. Getting your cam welded and reground is most likely the best way to get your cam issue resolved. I can buy new rockers from Bike Bandit next time they have a 10% discount sale and shipping will be free.....and I could have them shipped to Lancer so he could ship them back with your welded/reground cam. Last time I checked the rockers were about $ 56 each. I don't know how to help with the tariffs. Dave |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Armen on 11/06/16 at 06:11:08 So, how is it that the aluminum surfaces are ok and the steel surfaces are roached? I get it that the cam-to-rocker surface is further downstream on the oiling, but it's kinda crazy that the head survived. Makes me think the head has some basic design flaws in the oil flow department. There are literally hundreds of thousands of bikes out there with cams running directly in the head, and rocker arms, and they aren't all murdering the cams and rockers. The last time I saw this problem in epidemic proportions was on the early Honda Interceptors. Honda sent out all sorts of service bulletins trying to address the issue. Nothing really worked. Turned out the real problem was that the oiling to the top end was inadequate. There are kits to reroute cleaner, cooler oil to the cams on the V-4s that solve the problem. Honda just tap danced for years, then completely redesigned the motor. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Dave on 11/06/16 at 08:21:00 The cam bearings don't need ZDDP, the pressure of the cam against the head is within the ability of the oil to lubricate. The cam/rocker load is very high when the cam is pushing on the rocker to open the valves, and the curved rocker and curved cam lobes provide very little surface area where the contact is being made.....and the result is a pressure than can exceed the shear strength of the oil....and you can get metal to metal contact - unless there is some ZDDP particles in there to prevent the metal to metal contact from occurring. A lot of the older bikes just had a single valve pushing on each rocker....this engine has 2 valves that need to be opened, and the resulting pressure is more than the wimpy 600 ppm ZDDP level can deal with. Did Suzuki fix this problem....maybe. Somewhere around 2004/2005 the rockers were modified to have a hardened insert, and so far I have not seen any engine where the newer rockers have failed. I am sure they could fail if you ran the engine low on oil - but that generally kills the bearing surfaces before it kills the rockers and cam lobes. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1476207917 Youzguyz has proven that the early rockers and cam can survive for 155,00 plus miles without wearing out - so the early rockers can survive if a proper engine oil is used. |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/19/16 at 06:11:46 Just to post a few photos of the new rocker arms and cam shaft. I suppose they are as close as they can come to a "reference" of how they could/should look :) The cam shaft is Black/dark so rather difficult to capture the surfaces of it in a decent photograph. http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-18%2018.06.09.jpg http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-18%2018.04.39.jpg http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-18%2018.04.55.jpg |
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Title: Re: Rocker arm wear reference Post by Mekh on 11/19/16 at 06:36:00 Well... This photo is not specifically related to the topic, but just wanted to show a handy little tool I made to clean the (gasket) surfaces on the cylinder head etc. now that I had to dissassemble the head and cover. Soft copper edge and a stainless steel handle. http://https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/295041/billeder/SuzukiSavage/2016-11-18%2022.28.48.jpg |
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