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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1477830101 Message started by piedmontbuckeye on 10/30/16 at 05:21:41 |
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Title: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 10/30/16 at 05:21:41 I just moved here from the BMW world (old Airheads) and am wondering what people have used or not used in their S40's. I had been a fan of Lucas Oil products, and want to use their oil in my S40. Is it OK to use a semi-synthetic or even a full synthetic? I now live in upstate South Carolina (moved here from Ohio - go Bucks!!) and the summer temps approach mid-90's to 100 degrees. Winters fall back down to around 25 deg. I want to ride this thing pretty much year round, so if I simply use semi-synthetic 10W-40 all the time would that be good? Or...would one go 20W-50 in hot summer, and maybe even 5W-30 in colder winter? |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Drestakil on 10/30/16 at 05:48:11 One of the 4 most common questions (see above) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1366651397 Most on here use Shell Rotella T3 or the synthetic T6. As an added precaution you can add 1 oz of Redline ZDDP per gallon. Welcome to the forum :) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Mr.T on 10/30/16 at 06:45:04 I use Rotella 15-40 Dino. And I live just south of Charlotte, NC. I had several BMW Airheads, 75/5, 75/6, 75/7, 60/5, etc....Great bikes. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Rodger on 10/30/16 at 07:06:26 Put a lot of miles on my '84 BMW R80RT, "back in the day." Even packed the (now-ex) wife and cooking/camping gear on that "small" bike. And with over 6 gallons of gas, with multiple reserves from the 2 petcocks, it had long legs. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 10/31/16 at 02:43:11 I use Rotella T in everything I own (except the 2 stroke stuff). There really isn't any reason to use anything else. It is cheap, it has all the stuff needed to lubricate and clean properly, and it is easy to find at the local stores. Use Rotella T (or T-6 if you feel the need to spend money on a synthetic), keep your idle speed up above 1,000, don't let the engine idle for extended periods on the side stand (it can cause were in the right side cam lobe).....and you won't have to worry about any engine oil issues. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/02/16 at 05:53:58 556E6374656972746F676A75060 wrote:
Because that's just true.. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by RaleighGuy on 11/02/16 at 06:57:45 Preach the word, Dave! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/02/16 at 07:28:22 Do Ya Need another Witness? Can I Git uh Witness? |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/02/16 at 08:28:36 Youzguyz and his 155,000 mile Savage motor is about as good of a witness as you could need. (60,000 miles Mobil 1, 95,000 miles Rotella T-6) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/02/16 at 09:26:41 AAAAMEN, Bruthahh!! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/02/16 at 09:34:27 And....after 155,000 miles the piston and cylinder still are within specs and are going back in the engine with new rings and gaskets! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/02/16 at 10:02:56 Ohhhh!! hal·le·lu·jah,hal·le·lu·jah.. It's a murkle I tell ya,, |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by norm92de on 11/02/16 at 11:34:55 Looks like an excellent endorsement to me. ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/04/16 at 12:12:09 Thanks for all your responses. Since I have been a Lucas fan for many years now in my other vehicles, I went with their motorcycle 10-40 oil with the markings "specially designed for wet clutches" I also mixed in their synthetic oil stabilizer at their recommended 10% for wet clutch applications. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/04/16 at 17:33:26 Do you know what the ZDDP content is for the Lucas oil? If it isn't up around 1,200 ppm......you are risking accelerated cam and rocker wear (and replacement). |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Oldfeller on 11/08/16 at 07:06:34 You are wasting your time, Dave. He believes in his current oil's advertisements and showing him a bunch of VOA info and suggesting Lucas is not all it is cracked up to be FOR A SAVAGE would just be cruelty. He comes from BMW air head dry clutch, oil only in the engine land and he does not grok he needs a different sort of oil for a wet clutch engine (keep them plates from slippy slippy) while also providing what a high stress flat tappet system needs. Plus, he puts in the Lucas "oil stabilizer" too -- and only his very own personal clutch plates will ever tell him anything different. If he wants to go play oil war, he can --- just show us clear label pictures of what you consider good Lucas oil and good Lucas "oil stabilizer". :) Read and learn a bit ..... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1478354612 |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/16 at 20:42:49 Since I have been a Lucas fan for many years now in my other vehicles, I went with their motorcycle 10-40 oil with the markings "specially designed for wet clutches" How many of those Other Vehicles had flat tappets slappin and sliding on the cam? Each one of those curved faces is connected to a split lever that crushes Two, Count em, 2 Valve springs.. The ZDDP question is a Very important question. There is a picture recently posted showing wear of cam and lifters.. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/09/16 at 03:56:21 67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:
Nope.....4 springs. Left/right - inner and outer! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/16 at 05:47:08 Well just Slap me! SnatsafraszinRitsafrappin DAVE! He can't help it, bless his heart, he Jus CAINT Heppitt... Boy just gotta be right. Dadgum inner an outter, THAT'S what got me.. So, Innyway, about the Real Task the oil has to accomplish AND stay in the battle and protect your cam,, The oil most used Here is what is proven to keep these engines alive. It's cheap and available. Ohh, LOOK! A line Right out of my autobiography! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/11/16 at 14:08:12 7251595B585151584F3D0 wrote:
While I will not contest too much with your opinion about the better oil! However, I will put in a good word for Lucas. LUCAS has a proven reputation for quality and great products - theirs is not simply an advertising campaign, but proven in the field. This is NOT just due to an ignorant person simply believing an ad campaign. What about your loyalty to the Shell product? Based on fact? Or opinion? The ZDDP on the product is used is well over 1,000 and it is a semi-synthetic which has proven to have superior lubricity (not to mention heat resistance) over regular oils. As far as the clutch slippage, I have not experienced any yet, and don't expect to, as they were aware of that possibility and provided a mixture that avoids that. What I would like to know from you, is has ANY of you tested the LUCAS oil offerings and compared them to the SHELL that you are recommending? It would seem to me that this would be a necessary function BEFORE you so brazenly attack LUCAS. Finally, who came up with the number of 1,200 as the minimum ZDDP for oil for this Suzuki? I am not contesting the oil question as I do not know, nor am I such a follower of LUCAS that I would defend them when if knew that they weren't correct, but I DO question your advice IF you have never done the appropriate testing - including testing on LUCAS products! Finally, I have been riding motorcycles since I was 14 - some 50 years ago! I worked at a Honda shop, a BMW shop and a shop that even sold Hodakas! I have owned numerous Hondas, Yamahas, Bultacos, Hodakas, BMW's and yes, now a Suzuki, so I have been around the block a few times. I don't know everything, which is why I asked the question that started this whole thread! To respond to your suggestion about the valve tappets on that thread that showed significant wear on them, I would suggest that you really re-look at that thread, It is CLEAR that the wear shown there was due to the bike having sat for a long period of time and the cam and rockers had rusted badly enough to create the pits. Normal wear (including wear from poor lubrication (such as your being below the acceptable ZDDP level) would NOT cause pitting like that! Running the bike after all that pitting would certainly give the results shown in the pics - no matter what oil one was using - NOT poor lubrication! Typically, oil questions produce all sorts of opinions and also typically, they devolve into opinions rather than facts. I just want facts. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/11/16 at 18:01:40 Before the EPA stepped in, 1,200 ppm of ZDDP was the common standard for the level in most oils, and folks weren't wearing out cams and rockers. Then when the ZDDP level dropped to the current 600 ppm standard.....the cam and rocker issues started to show up. Shell Rotella T still meets the old 1,200 ZDDP standard, and we don't have premature rocker and cam wear when using that number....so for me that number is the "Gold Standard" for the ZDDP content. ZDDP levels over 1,400 ppm is believed to cause wear problems and levels over that number should be avoided. Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough???? I don't know - you are welcome to try it and let us know how it works for the long haul. I found the following a very helpful explanation of what ZDDP is and what it does: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to the metal by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines. Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary. And maybe the damage on the linked cam was started by rust - I will find some better photos to post for you......there is no shortage of damaged cams and rockers from these engines. The cam and rockers do hold up a very long time if you use a good oil, and they can wear out really quickly with the wrong oil. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/12/16 at 10:11:40 Thank you for your kind reply. I doubt, however that the 1,200 is a number that could be considered the benchmark. Might be Shell's number in the oil you use, but that doesn't constitute a requirement. Most upper-end wear happens at startup on a cold engine. There are ways to compensate for this wear. One is to use Lucas' oil stabilizer, which is why I do. It eliminates an estimated 90% of cold starting wear, and that is a major part of all engine wear. In the Lucas world, the oil stabilizer actually does cling to surfaces even after cool down, and thus does provide the protection needed at start up, and it also clings to surfaces such as cam and sliding rocker arms which also gives the anti-wear protection needed. With Lucas' ZDDP well over 1,000 and its lubricity being partially synthetic and the extra wear protection of the stabilizer I think that part of the issue is covered. I, like some of you, am also concerned about the wet clutch issues, and after conferring with a Lucas Engineer (I have had many calls off to him over the years) I am pretty sure that clutch slippage will not occur. In the last 200+ miles there has been no such sign of clutch slippage. Only time will tell about the wear on the upper end. There was someone (maybe not you, I am not sure) who took pot-shots at me because, he implied, that I couldn't know because I migrated over from the BMW Airhead world, Nothing could be farther from the truth. I try to investigate almost everything from a scientific point of view, and one of the ways is to ask people who know and have had experience such at people here. I just object to generalized statements without any other data than "I have used such and such, and never had a problem," and THEN attack other products without some sort of proof that that something else really IS inadequate. I am hoping that this Suzuki will last me many years without many problems and will very likely be my last bike, as I am getting up there in years. That's why, I decided to leave the old BMW Airhead world (I still think they may be the greatest bikes for the type of riding they were designed for) and purchased this Suzuki. It was more manageable for me to maneuver around (pushing around the garage, etc) and also for getting on. They had too high of a seat and it became more and more difficult for me simply to mount the thing, as I have some back issues from too much improper lifting over my life. I still love to ride, and this Suzuki really fills the gap for me and my personal issues. I hope it proves reliable and easy to maintain. Only a couple of things that I wish I could change: I wish it were a twin cylinder with twin carbs, and I also wish it were a little more of the older "sit-up" style (like the current new Triumphs). I want to purchase a quick add-on windshield for colder months and be able to take it off during the warmer months. There was one advertised for sale on this forum, but the fella hasn't contacted me back. I have already read and pretty much understand the ZDDP issue, as there was a great guy on the BMW web site that actually did careful testing of about 20 oils and reported the results in the BMWMOA magazine. The BMW people were very finicky about that sort of thing. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by batman on 11/12/16 at 14:07:49 Nine dollars a qt. for Lucas! ZDDP-1000 or twenty for a gallon of Rotella with1200. If I'm on a trip knowing I can find Rotella at any parts store or Walmart , and my motor is protected and my clutch wont slip, not much to think about ,not in my mind.I guess if you can afford BMW's you can afford Lucas oil ,good luck! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by hotrod on 11/12/16 at 21:34:05 I have never in my life seen a engine have excessive wear or break because of the oil used. Only lack of it. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/13/16 at 03:30:22 715854545C4B08390 wrote:
I somewhat agree with this - with the exception of cams/rockers and ZDDP content. Lots of folks are keeping the oil changed properly and at the proper level in their vintage equipment - but they started getting cam wear when the ZDDP content was lowered. It happened in vintage cars, old tractors, any equipment that didn't have rollers on the cams/rockers. The internet is loaded with forums that document the onset of wear when the ZDDP was lowered, and the folks that build camshaft also warn of the harm that can occur when you use oil without adequate ZDDP content. And it does happen in the Savage - if you run a modern car oil with only 600 ppm of ZDDP, you will get accelerated cam/rocker wear. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/13/16 at 04:19:56 piedmontbuckeye: Here is a link to the online owners manual - it has a chart that shows what viscosity you can use to match the temperature you are riding in. http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/transfer/2002_LS650P_Owners_Manual.pdf Go ahead an use Lucas oil in your Savage if you want to, it most likely will be fine. I use their synthetic gear oil in my Vibe transmission, I use their fuel system cleaners.....I like their products - but I don't use their engine oil as it is $ 9.99 a quart at Autozone......that is just short of $40 a gallon and I can get Rotella T for less than $15 a gallon. Our members tend to be on a bit of a budget in most cases, and as such we don't promote the expensive oils when you can achieve lasting protection at much lower cost. Here is a link to our recommended oils: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 I used to spend money on expensive oils - but I have found that there really isn't any reason to. Shell Rotella T will provide all the engine protection that is needed, and it will prevent my cars/tractors/motorcycles from having any oil related failures....and I am certain that I will never wear any of my engines out in my lifetime. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/13/16 at 05:13:13 Good info - especially about older engines being affected by the lack of ZDDP. This general idea is also true of the gasolines available when they mandated that lead be removed. Lots of trouble in older engines with this as well. 0B303D2A3B372C2A3139342B580 wrote:
I somewhat agree with this - with the exception of cams/rockers and ZDDP content. Lots of folks are keeping the oil changed properly and at the proper level in their vintage equipment - but they started getting cam wear when the ZDDP content was lowered. It happened in vintage cars, old tractors, any equipment that didn't have rollers on the cams/rockers. The internet is loaded with forums that document the onset of wear when the ZDDP was lowered, and the folks that build camshaft also warn of the harm that can occur when you use oil without adequate ZDDP content. And it does happen in the Savage - if you run a modern car oil with only 600 ppm of ZDDP, you will get accelerated cam/rocker wear.[/quote] |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Oldfeller on 11/13/16 at 18:03:49 Good, he begins to understand some little bit about ZDDP .... now let's revisit the slipping clutch plates thing again. The oil wetted clutch plates (his old BMW airhead buds have a dry clutch that does not share space with the engine oil at all so what the BMW guys recommend for additives might not be the best thing for a Savage). Exactly which oil stabilizer exactly was he recommending from the BMW airhead guys, which exact Lucas product was that again ??? |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Papa Bear on 11/13/16 at 18:38:53 New passenger car motor oils (SN) are strictly regulated re: additive concentration (pp/m) of zinc phosphorus etc to keep the catalytic converters from failing if oil consumption increases. Diesel oils are not that restricted and ZDDP is more robust in HDEO diesel oil. Rotella T 15w-40 is also JASO MA approved which makes it a shoe-in for the best value S40 oil. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/14/16 at 03:22:30 51727A787B72727B6C1E0 wrote:
I believe he is using Lucas oil....straight from the bottle without any additional additives. http://lucasoil.com/products/motorcycle-products/oils/lucas-high-performance-motorcycle-oils |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by verslagen1 on 11/14/16 at 07:41:01 5A434F4E4745445E485F49414F534F2A0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/14/16 at 07:50:42 607364657A7771737827160 wrote:
[/quote] OH!.....Nevermind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0[/media] |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/14/16 at 20:52:34 I think I might be confused. Okay, I guess I am,, So, did he Ask a question? Did he want advice? Or, did he just announce what he was doing? |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by batman on 11/14/16 at 22:12:18 Whatever! he's probably going to run 20w50 in the summer thinking it's going to run cooler.I think he 's looking for Lucas converts. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/15/16 at 04:39:21 2F363A3B3230312B3D2A3C343A263A5F0 wrote:
It appears he wants to know what we use. (Rotella or Rottela T) He wants to run Lucas, and wants to know if semi synthetic or full synthetic is OK. (Yes) He wants to know what oil viscosity he needs to ride year round when temperatures can go from 100 degrees down to 25 degrees. (They all work except 10W-30 should not be used above 86 degrees - 5W-40 is not in the chart - but it would work just fine). http://i65.tinypic.com/20r8rgk.jpg |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Papa Bear on 11/15/16 at 05:31:57 "I want to wash my feet .. should I use tap water, distilled water or Perrier?" ;) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/15/16 at 06:46:32 The thread started out OK.....then it morphed into an "oil war thread". Sorry if I somehow fanned the flames. Maybe we need to send all oil thread discussion to the Tall Table as soon as they are posted! :-? |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by batman on 11/15/16 at 15:29:43 Papa Bear ,if your going to wash your feet you should use soap! :) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Rodger on 11/15/16 at 15:45:47 Oil & Tire Wars.... ...the scourges of 'cycle forums rverywhere. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Kris01 on 11/15/16 at 17:58:53 3E3D28313D3268645C0 wrote:
The things you learn on a motorcycle forum! ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/16/16 at 14:11:29 7C5F5755565F5F5641330 wrote:
If you carefully read my comments and questions, I NEVER said that ANY BMW guys recommended Lucas - that is except for me! I DID use an additive: Lucas oil stabilizer at a 5 to 10% mixture (for wet clutches) as opposed to its normal 20% mixture for regular engines and trannys without wet clutches! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Oldfeller on 11/17/16 at 20:16:34 Piedmontbuckeye. there is a need for some very SPECIFIC information here. You have said you are using a product that investigation in the past on "Lucas Oil Treatments" has had Lucas very own petroleum engineers say was NOT recommended for motorcycle wet clutch application use. This was in line with Lucas's own posted printed tech information but it was in conflict with the sales promotional materials at that time. You know, pesky oil engineers saying no and sales guys saying "hey, a new market over there that needs to be taken advantage of." We can't even investigate what uses the stuff is currently advertised to do because you haven't told us what it is. Please show us some pictures of the bottles, please. Give us a reference to the misleading adverts too, if you can find them for us. I have been involved in too many newbies coming here trying to clean up clutch plates that were contaminated by both energy star oils and "thickness modifiers" (yes, your older Lucas oil treatment stuff was based a long hydrocarbon polymer thickness modifier) to let this stay over here in factual land without backup references. Perhaps this is a new product, or perhaps it is the marketing guys are again trying to sell something potentially harmful to the wet clutch guys again that their own petroleum and applications engineers won't approve when directly asked -- with Lucas it has gone that way before, but once again this time may be different and this may be a new product completely, we can't know until you start posting real information. And, although you didn't even know what an oil war was, you have indeed gotten involved in one by making statements and offering opinions that are not backed up by any factual information. Information that comes from users of a different brand of motorcycle that has a dry plate (automotive style) bv clutch. Or else you are here simply because we will respond to you, and you are just having a discussion. Great, we discuss all sorts of stuff over in the Cafe area. Rubber Side Down is kept completely factual as it is read by new people who cannot separate "opinion" from best practices. In Rubber Side down we stick to best practices, things proven and known. In Rubber Side Down we always try to support what we say with links and tech references. Right now we don't know which Lucas oil you are using (exactly, specifically) and we certainly don't know which Lucas oil modifier you are using. My main concern is that is Lucas selling their stuff again in a misleading manner similar to what they have done in the past, or perhaps the airhead BMW guys simply have got a trick that works in their environment that might cause damage to a Savage if used here inside our Big Singles. You need to tell us what you are using, good buddy. Nobody can respond to you until you do. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/19/16 at 06:03:56 6B4840424148484156240 wrote:
I didn't start this thread to cause an "oil war" and yes I am fully aware that they exist as I have been around the block or two. I also resent your implications regarding my BMW past as though I wasn't aware of any other consideration than my being used to a "dry clutch. I HAVE specifically stated what product I am using but I didn't do so because I wanted YOUR approval. I only stated that your (most of them) responses are not substantiated with any sort of back up facts. I didn't criticize any's oil suggestion as I don't have any "facts" to be critical of them. I did state that you (generic "you") seem to be using the Shell Rotella as a benchmark and if any other suggests anything that doesn't match YOUR benchmark you (also generic "you") seem to attack it. For example, someone has mentioned 2,000 ppm as the amount one needs of ZDDP to have in their oil. Where does this number come from? Just because that is what Shell has in its oil (if it really does have that amount)? Why not 1,900" or 1,800? Where is the correct LOW number as needed and defined SCIENTIFICALLY and on this particular product (i.e. the Suzuki)? Could other factors affect things? Like the Suzuki having a poor lubrication system that is weak on upper end lubrication? I am not saying it does, but this is just ONE factor that could affect things and oil choice. I have been around enough (and BMW people are far more cognizant of these things than you think. Perhaps there is another war going on here? I think the most common sense response above by one person is that when properly oiled (i.e. changed and kept clean, etc.) almost any oil would work and work well. I am (and have been for years) aware about the ZDDP issue, so I would NEVER use a regular car oil in my bike, but I remember using (years ago) regular auto oil in virtually all of my "wet clutch" bikes including using an oil that was specifically designed for racing engines with NO issues with my wet clutches! Get over yourself. You are probably impressing others, but not me! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Papa Bear on 11/19/16 at 06:35:48 Well said. I don't see an "oil war" either ... nor the need for one. My post was to state that Rotella T "conventional" JASO MA is more than adequate for the job - cheap and readily accessible. My SYM Wolf 150 (IIRC) calls for "10W-30 SH motor oil or better". SH is obsolete from the 1990's ( http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm ) and the S40 is similar in it's manual. If someone wants to wash their feet in Perrier then go for it - it won't hurt a thing (except wallet) ;) Certainly not worth fighting over ..... I can defend my statement... but I won't "fight" over it. (fight is war (bad), defend is communication, education, growth (good)) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/19/16 at 07:00:37 0E0F00010203040506370 wrote:
Your comments were fine and GREATLY appreciated! I will in the future probably change to the Shell. However, for those who want to fight a war - go ahead. Doesn't help me at all, and doesn't really respond to my original question. I had only first mentioned the Lucas as that was what I have trusted in the past, and put in when I first got my Suzuki as I wanted to make sure that the oil was fresh and new - one can never trust previous owner's word as to when he/she last changed oil. Next I want to do the front forks just to make sure that they don't "sludge" up. I have seen too many bikes that owners simply just don't properly maintain and the bikes end up with all sorts of problems. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Dave on 11/19/16 at 08:54:39 514844454C4E4F554354424A445844210 wrote:
Nobody quoted 2,000 ppm of ZDDP in this thread, and anything over 1,400 ppm of ZDDP can cause wear and is not recommended (except during the cam break in). The 1,200 ppm that I quoted is the amount of ZDDP that was the maximum allowed in motor oils prior to first ZDDP reduction that occurred in the 1990' - the Suzuki Savage first came on the market in 1986 and most likely was designed to operate with that oil in the engine. Here is a link to a very good oil article, and a quote from that article: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/03/choosing-right-oil/ ZDDP Reductions In recent years, the critical anti-wear additive ZDDP has been gradually reduced to help extend the life of the catalytic converter (phosphorus can contaminate the catalyst if the engine is using oil). Back in the 1980s, motor oils typically contained around 1500 PPM (parts per million) of ZDDP. In the 1990s, that was reduced to 1200 PPM, then down to around 800 PPM in 2005. That level of anti-wear additive is adequate for overhead cam engines and pushrod engines that have roller cams, but it has proved to be inadequate for engines with flat tappet cams, causing accelerated cam lobe and lifter wear – especially if stiffer valve springs are used. I use and recommend Rotella T and T-6 because they are affordable, easy to find at most retail stores, auto stores, truck stops, and it does the job. I have also used Brad Penn - but it is more expensive and hard to find. If you want to use something else - that is OK......you can use whatever you believe is necessary and keeps you and your motorcycle cruising along smoothly. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Kris01 on 11/19/16 at 09:30:03 We recommend Rotella because it works for us. No one has had any problems with it and most of us report better performance with the clutch and a smoother running engine with Rotella as compared to Brand X. Feel free to try something else. If you do, PLEASE report back to us what your experiences were. We'd love to have decent alternatives to Rotella (just in case). ;) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/20/16 at 04:43:48 "Rubber Side Down is kept completely factual as it is read by new people who cannot separate "opinion" from best practices. In Rubber Side down we stick to best practices, things proven and known." Now I feel better! Everything here is "factual." Not like I haven't heard THAT before!! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Oldfeller on 11/20/16 at 07:28:41 Also please be aware that Dave is the nice Moderator ..... ditto for Serobot. Verslagen is more to the point (as you can tell) and I only get out of my Baralounger very very rarely to handle other matters. You need to stop and READ the posting guidelines for the various sections as they are different as some areas permit more non-factual stuff (some permit quite a lot actually). This is by design, as a motorcycle bound factual only list is sorta boring in the long run. We have different areas, and different rules accordingly. Read the posting guidelines for each section, realize that we post most of the casual chatter stuff while drinking coffee in the Cafe, and all the rotgut bawdy stuff down in the basement while gathered around the Tall Table. I might suggest you limit your posting more to the Cafe area .... you don't seem to own any real facts right now to share in Rubber Side down area at the moment and I for one would not want you to try "half answering" newbie questions with no facts and with no real knowledge to back it up. In essence, all you are doing at the moment is maintaining a little "I really didn't start it on purpose" oil war. This list uses "wars" of various sorts to discover the facts about new items that are coming up. And yes, we are having a war over the CK-4 roll out on Rotella oil specs, as the new specs are being hidden at the moment (by regulation, actually) and the change is being "phased in" with a level of secrecy that really bugs many of us at the moment. Oil is important to a Savage as we ARE an antique flat tappet engine that runs very high tappet stress forces on our oils. And we have a wet clutch, too. Understand that WHERE you post has a bearing on what you post and vice versa -- put it in the right section and life is sweet. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Papa Bear on 11/20/16 at 18:43:47 Some Rotella threads at BITOG - UOAs https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3737201/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3707885/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3327175/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3645452/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3538379/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3424581/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3182062/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3113052/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2984484/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3103087/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2961720/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2669316/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2934714/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2876575/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2808389/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2801966/ https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2668218/ |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by ohiomoto on 11/20/16 at 20:21:19 This thread is nuts. You guys must have an awful lot of time on you hands! My motto is to never discuss politics or religion because people argue and many have such a hard time accepting others beliefs. It makes it hard for some to be friends after such discussions. I've just added oil to my list. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Oldfeller on 11/20/16 at 20:41:33 Yup, oil is on the list. Newbies have several times found themselves transported down to the bomb churned earth in between the trench lines, unexpectedly finding themselves plunked right on down into No Man's Land and they had to scramble hard to find them some cover. It shocks them to hear the wheeeeet of all the bullets going past, and the mortar fire and the flame throwers are very very unwelcome (should somebody be so impolite as to use one). Lucas of late (unless they have changed radically lately, in which case somebody should show us a new bottle to look at) has always checked out to be a 600 ppm SN grade car oil. And we are serious, Lucas' engineers really haven't recommend the thick goopy additive stuff for use in wet clutch motorcycle engines. But, actually, I do love to be wrong you know -- it just takes a picture or two and an couple of source reference links and I can be wrong all over again ...... ::) And the neat thing is, you can be RIGHT !!! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Ruttly on 11/20/16 at 21:36:05 Ohiomoto , get used to it,these guys get crazy, they might be ready to declare War , A Oil War , Black Gold , Texas Tea, Swimmin Pools, Moive Stars OIL WAR , Toga , Toga , Toga |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Ruttly on 11/20/16 at 21:43:39 I love the smell of Rotella burning in the morning,smells like Victory ! |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Papa Bear on 11/21/16 at 05:23:49 I intended my post to be information sharing - I hope no-one took it as a battle cry. If you are looking for war you will certainly find it ... and blame the other for starting it. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Kris01 on 11/21/16 at 17:47:35 292827262524232221100 wrote:
But you're Canadian!?!? ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/16 at 20:30:56 Either way, I'm going on a buying spree. I have a backhoe and bike that like Rotella as it was. |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/23/16 at 10:29:04 If you read back through this thread, I had only mentioned Lucas because that is what I was used to, and I use it on my first oil change on my new-to-me Suzuki. I wasn't making any sort of judgement on any other than to ask for the source and proof of the benchmark numbers I was getting. If I could post this comment somewhere else I would, but I wanted to respond to your comment. I, like anyone else. I suppose, will respond back when attacked or when being belittled - regardless of the forum I am in!! 77545C5E5D54545D4A380 wrote:
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by Papa Bear on 11/23/16 at 13:45:09 Exactly right on the CK-4 The real truth (not my opinion or belief) will be born-out by VOAs and UOAs on the products and by input from experienced tribologists in the field of motorcycles, flat tappets and wet clutches. One of the guys at BITOG is a motorcycle oil specialist along with the trusted oil oil engineers there. When I got my SYM a while ago I PMed Molakule at BITOG and got his take on my bike and oil choice(s) - he had 2 thumbs up for RotellaT too. Moly and ZDDP are not "the holy grail" but used with other ingredients in proper base stock recipe everything comes together to satisfy the requirements of motorcycle flat tappet wet clutch durability and protection. Testing, oil blending, tear-down inspections and VOA-UOAs "PROVE" what works. Read some of the research from Lubrizol on oil additives... some of it is like magic. And the drastically improved base-stocks make additives less important in many cases. For us it's important that an oil be JASO MA and we'll have to see if the new generation of diesel oils CK-4 PC-11 meet that standard too. As Bob Dylan said so well "Times, they are a-changin'" ;) I found this while searching JASO MA oils http://www.eaglesnesttx.com/swamp/xs650/build/wet%20clutch%20oil%20list.pdf If you scroll down you will find that SOPUS (Shell Oil Products U.S.) makes the Suzuki oils ... Information is POWER !! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Oil questions for newbie for 2011 S40 Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/24/16 at 04:36:43 I think this quote below is an excellent one! As I had said previo0usly, on my next oil change I, too, will changeover to the Rotella (probably the semi-synthetic version). When on the BMW Forum Website, one of the mods had done pretty extensive research on various brands and levels (about 20 total) having them tested, but I forget his results off the top of my head. 6B6A65646766616063520 wrote:
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