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Message started by Andreas on 10/07/16 at 11:30:00

Title: Often battery draining and now wont start at all..
Post by Andreas on 10/07/16 at 11:30:00

Hi guys,
I've to say that the last year or so I am not riding a lot (maybe once a week) so I always charge my battery the day before I ride. My trips would be around 1 hour all the way. My first question has to do with my battery performance. Is it normal for the battery to drain that fast? Keep in my mind that I replaced it last year with a new Yuasa battery.
To my bigger problem now...
I was heading to the beach last week and after about 5 minutes since I left home I stopped for a coffee. When I got back, the bike fired up normally and then all of the sudden and while I was holding the clutch it died! Ok (I said), lets fire up again. I pressed the engine start button but all I was hearing was the relay clicking and nothing else. No cranking, no nothing!!! >:(
I called a friend and came there. I wired his car's battery on my bike and tried again. This time the bike was cranking like hell but nothing else. It seemed that the spark plug was not powering but i can't understand why... I eventually load the bike on his track and we headed back home.
I haven't troubleshoot anything yet as I wanted some guidelines from you about where to start.
Do you believe that the draining battery has something related to this problem?

Thanks,
Andreas

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/07/16 at 11:35:01

Sounds to me like the side stand safety switch is at fault.

BTW, no need to charge a battery if the bike gets ridden every week.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Dave on 10/07/16 at 11:36:35

The battery draining can either be a result of the battery being bad - or something on the bike is draining the battery.

New batteries can decide to go bad without much notice - especially AGM or Gell batteries.

You really need a voltmeter to test your battery to find out what it going on - that way you can test the battery voltage at rest, and also while under a load.

However.....you might try disconnecting the ground wire as soon as you are done riding - and then connect the battery back up the next day and see if you can start the bike (you are checking to see if the battery can hold a charge when it is not connected t the bike).

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/07/16 at 12:18:17

7D777379727B7F76282E2A1A0 wrote:

Sounds to me like the side stand safety switch is at fault.

BTW, no need to charge a battery if the bike gets ridden every week.

Hi Gary,

correct me if I am wrong but I thing that the side stand switch comes in action only if you don't have neutral on. In my case I had it in neutral when I was trying to fire it up.
In addition, the bike was not cranking at all with my battery, but it was when I wired it up on the track's battery

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by batman on 10/07/16 at 20:18:07

You might check the ground cable were it connects to the motor ,near the oil sight glass.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/07/16 at 20:21:07

I've to say that the last year or so I am not riding a lot (maybe once a week) so I always charge my battery the day before I ride.

That looks like a problem to me.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by ero4444 on 10/08/16 at 14:22:26

Agree, letting the battery sit for a week or more then recharging it, will age it more than keeping 100% on a smart charger like "Battery Tender Jr".

Once the battery is damaged then it will crank slower but not start the Savage. Fyi 12.0vdc is appx 25% of max capacity for lead-acid battery, which will crank but not start. I experienced this on the original battery, that's when I learned to push-start. So what is your actual battery voltage?

Also you might as well set petcock to "prime" to rule out that fuel problem.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/08/16 at 23:59:21

What do you guys mean? Am I getting it wrong with the battery? Is there any standard procedure for battery tendering or charging periods?

Anyway, today I started with some troubleshooting. I sprayed contact cleaner on all interlocks. I replaced the spark plug and checked the spark plug power wire. I found the problem on that wire for not powering on. I had replaced the standard plug a couple of years ago with an NGK one. It seems that after that time and with the vibrations on the bike it became loose.

Now for the battery:
Fully charged battery gives 12.7V (both leads connected on)
At idle, battery gives around 13.1V
Revving the engine, no significant change. Still around 13.1V :-/
That means that I have a problem with my charging circuit?

I will remove the ground lead at measure it again tomorrow. I will let you know about that.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Dave on 10/09/16 at 04:12:31

To confirm the battery is good....you need to measure the voltage while the starter button is pushed and the starter motor is turning the engine over (under load). Batteries can show a good voltage at rest - but not provide enough voltage when under a load - when this occurs there is not enough voltage to power the ignition circuit.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/09/16 at 05:18:48

So, 12.7 is a good voltage for most batteries just sitting there.
As Dave said, hold the meter leads on while cranking to too how low the voltage drops. This will give you an idea how healthy the battery is. If it drops to 10 volts, it's probably tired.
The fact that the voltage goes to 13.1 at idle says that you have some amount of charging system. Staying at 13.1 when revved up means the charging system isn't up to snuff. Time to start the charging system poke-about.
Rotor is a permanent magnet. Not much to go wrong there.
Stator is a bunch of copper wires. Unplug the multi-pin connector going to the alternator. Check resistance across the fields and check each leg for short to ground.
Rectifier/Regulator is a bit tougher to test, as you can't isolate the regulator part. Using the diode test part of a digital meter, you can test the diodes in the rectifier. Look in the manual.
Regulator becomes a diagnosis of exclusion. If everything else is ok, then it is the Regulator. Sometimes the easiest way to test is to borrow a know good one and swap it out.
With the key off, set the meter to DC amps and place it inline between the neg post of the battery and ground. It should read zero or only a few milliamperes. More means a parasitic load, short, or bad diode in the R/R.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/16 at 05:36:40

. I found the problem on that wire for not powering on. I had replaced the standard plug a couple of years ago with an NGK one. It seems that after that time and with the vibrations on the bike it became loose.

You did good. The Feel of a plug wire snapping into place, unless someone is familiar with it, and knows what it's Supposed to feel like, they could get close and it run for a while and then get troublesome.

As Dave said, gotta know what the battery voltage is under load to know what the battery is really doing.

Nobody can hear how quickly the starter is spinning your motor over but you. If it's spinning over the same but sometimes starting, sometimes not , then thinking it's Possibly an interlock or connection to an interlock isn't unreasonable.
AFAIK, you're the first who ran an intermittent start problem down and found the plug wire not seated right on the plug.
Maybe WD should have a look up that way before he puts an armor piercing round through the head on his.

We see tons of
Turns over but won't start
problems. It's most often battery or a crummy ground.

When someone is charging the battery regularly that is a bit of a red flag. Sounds to the people reading it like you're not trusting the battery to be healthy. New, nearly new, we Expect them to be healthy, but batteries can be crummy, before they should be.
That's why they have warranties.
And, without knowing what kinda charger, how many amps and how long, we can't get a feel for whether or not the charging of the battery has hurt the battery.

I hope you cleaned out the cavity the plug sits in.

Now we have a new

Have you checked the__________,,,

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Steve H on 10/09/16 at 09:20:09

If you've got a constant current drain off of your battery, you should find and fix it.

There's nothing on the standard bike that uses power when the switch is off. I've heard of bad reg/rec slowly soaking power but it's not a common failure mode. I've heard of lots of 3rd party stuff being installed in a way that uses power all the time instead of just when the bike is running.

You can find out if you have a vampire circuit by setting your VOM to the 10 AMPS scale and inserting it between the battery and the power lead. It can't measure cranking or even running power but it will easily tell you if you have something eating power when the engine's off. More than a zero reading, you've got something on all the time and you'll have to track it down.

My battery is a flooded type and it's almost 4 years old. I have no problems with it going dead. It's never been on a tender and only been charged a couple times when the stator on my bike died. My bike rarely sits for a week even in the winter but it's always got plenty of starting power whenever I hit the button.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/16 at 09:26:56

Wouldn't a test light connected in series with either the ground or positive lead do the job?
If it lights, pull a fuse.
Etc..

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Steve H on 10/09/16 at 19:01:54

It will do the same job.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 00:27:38

I've checked for parasitic current with the key at OFF position and the result was zero, even in the [ch956]A scale! I was measuring around 0.4mA when the key was in ON position.
It does now make sense that I might actually have an issue with my charging system. I'll use the guidelines you gave me among with some other posts I was searching in here and I'll let you know.

Thanks guys

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 00:33:37

091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 wrote:

Wouldn't a test light connected in series with either the ground or positive lead do the job?
If it lights, pull a fuse.
Etc..

or maybe an LED with a current limiting resistor (around 1k[ch937]) in series might detect a small current leakage. An LED can lid with some milliamps flowing through. A bulb on the other hand might not lid if a small current is there. Polarity must be taken into consideration with the LED though...
I'll also try that ;)

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 08:12:18

Ok new data.

Battery when engine is cranking shows 10.5V minimum value
Resistance measurements on stator:
1.3[ch937] between each coil

Resistance to ground:
0.8[ch937] for each coil... :-/
Is there a problem here? Shouldn't I get infinite resistance?

R/R diode check:
Infinite resistance for all possible combinations (between each leg and reversed polarity)

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by verslagen1 on 10/10/16 at 08:28:50

343633362F6D6E5F0 wrote:

Resistance to ground:
0.8[ch937] for each coil... :-/
Is there a problem here? Shouldn't I get infinite resistance?

There's your problem, you gotta a bad stator coil.
I would double check, I would think the resistance would vary from coil to coil unless all of them were shorted.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/10/16 at 09:53:44

Andreas,
If you got .4Ma with the key on, your meter is broken.
The lights (even the instrument lights) pull more than that.
-Armen

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 11:08:10

4A79666E650B0 wrote:

Andreas,
If you got .4Ma with the key on, your meter is broken.
The lights (even the instrument lights) pull more than that.
-Armen

I can assure you about that because I used two different multimeters. Both showing zero with key off and 0.4 milliamps with key to on position. I have 0.4mA with the neutral and dash lights on

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/10/16 at 11:20:13

Is the tail light on? Any other lights?

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/10/16 at 11:21:02

Four tenths of one thousandth of an amp is lighting What lights?
Isn't the headlight on?
And I haven't run the numbers, but I don't see how any light bulb uses so little current.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/10/16 at 11:21:53

Are your stator resistance values with the multi pin connector disconnected (stator isolated)?

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/10/16 at 11:24:56

watts/volts=amps
amps x volts=watts
13volt system (more or less) x .0004a= .005 watt bulb

I'd say your meter is crap or you are reading it wrong

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 11:31:56

Sorry about that. I did the test again. I was reading the wrong scale both times. :P
That would be 4mA with neutral and dash lights on. If I turn the head and tail lights on then I read almost 5A.
I hope that makes sense now...

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 11:32:15

586B747C77190 wrote:

Are your stator resistance values with the multi pin connector disconnected (stator isolated)?

Yes

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/10/16 at 11:58:26

I got this image from Clymer
http://i67.tinypic.com/auuzd0.png

If the centre of the star is indeed connected to ground then it should be plausible for me to read these values.
On the other hand I don't know how the stator is connected internally.
Does anyone measured it before?
Deep inside I wish to have a bad stator. I will replace it and problem solved. But I have to be sure as I believe that we are talking for a bit expensive part.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/10/16 at 11:59:43

Hey hey,
Take a look at where the wires wrap under the front pulley. Undo the clips and pull the wire bundle away from the shifter cover.
Then test again. Look at the wires for any signs of shorting to ground.
If nothing obvious, yank the alternator cover and take a looksee at the stator.
Amperage read still sounds low, but a lot closer to real.
assuming the instrument and neutral lights are at least a watt or two each, that would still give you 300-500 mA

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Armen on 10/10/16 at 12:01:16

On that diagram, the center isn't ground. It's where the three legs join.
Less time in front of the computer, more time with tools=results
;)

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/10/16 at 12:14:06

An electrical diagram, schematic, shows grounds .

I can't reproduce it with the kindle.. And it's hard to describe,

But, available

http://www.rapidtables.com/electric/electrical_symbols.htm

Anyway, there is no Indication that the middle is grounded, and Armen has said so, and I think it's a good bet he's right.

You would not be the first to get wires screwed up by the belt.
Hope for that..

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Steve H on 10/10/16 at 15:08:58

The center is NOT grounded. The stator is a 3phase with no center tap to ground. It just connects the windings together Resistance to ground should be infinite.

edit 6:16pm

I went through all this last fall when my stator died. New stator has no connection to ground. (infinite resistance)

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/12/16 at 08:27:50

I've just found the time to work on the bike and the news are bad. I indeed have a faulty stator.
As you can see on the picture below that small metal securing stuff was bent and it was touching the rotor. I don't know how this happened but it did...
I double checked for short and I verified that this comes from the stator's windings. If the stator was removed then I could read infinite resistance, while checking on stator's body and the yellow wires I could read short.
I'll ask tomorrow the dealer for a new stator but I believe that this should be an expensive part. Any suggestions for good condition used parts would be appreciated. I don't know if you can be of any help on that as I live in Cyprus. This is a small island located in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. Far away from you!

http://i67.tinypic.com/5vuhlg.jpg

I'd like to thank you all for the support though. You really helped me identifying the problem.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by verslagen1 on 10/12/16 at 09:05:51

696B6E6B723033020 wrote:

I don't know if you can be of any help on that as I live in Cyprus. This is a small island located in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. Far away from you!

Never would've guessed, English is perfect.

The stator is a common part among other models.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1466140241/0#0

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/16 at 09:51:17

I'm sure sorry you found what you found, but I congratulate you on getting the troubleshooting done.

I knew about the Greek history, but the rest is news to me.

Languages of Cyprus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia › wiki › Languages_of_Cyprus
The official languages of the Republic of Cyprus are Greek and Turkish. In the break-away Northern Cyprus, Turkish was made the only official language by the 1983 constitution. The everyday spoken language (vernacular) of the majority of the population is Cypriot Greek, and that of Turkish Cypriots is Cypriot Turkish.
Official languages[ch8206]: [ch8206]Greek, Turkish[ch8206]
Main foreign languages[ch8206]: [ch8206]English (80.7%); French (10.8%); German (4.6%)[ch8206]
Minority languages[ch8206]: [ch8206]Armenian (recognised), Cypriot Arabic (recognised), Kurbetcha ...[ch8206]
Sign languages[ch8206]: [ch8206]Cypriot Sign Language

Apparently, English is pretty common. I've been Told that English is supposed to be pretty common here..

Just so this guy doesn't go through all this Twice, is there something he should look for that could have caused this, and will wreck his repair?
You know, like replacing a fuse, just to watch it pop?

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by verslagen1 on 10/12/16 at 10:11:46

2A353334292E1F2F1F27353972400 wrote:

Just so this guy doesn't go through all this Twice, is there something he should look for that could have caused this, and will wreck his repair?
You know, like replacing a fuse, just to watch it pop?

I've only been in there twice, and it was for swapping out the rotor to match the CDI.
And I've never seen this issue before.

Beyond that... That part just holds the wiring in place.
What would hit it and knock it out of place? Rotor?
A few have found their rotor nuts loose.
Or could it be bad crank bearings?

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/13/16 at 01:02:33

203F393E23241525152D3F33784A0 wrote:

Since you bother searching Wikipedia for our official languages take a look at this if you like reading and learning new stuff ;D:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus#cite_note-autogenerated2-13

Local dealer quote me for aprox. $150 for a new genuine stator. I suppose I'll go with the new one...

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/16 at 05:32:11

Wow,, that's a lot of stuff.. I figure we have more paved miles of driveways in Texas than Cyprus has roads. I also looked up the 10 prettiest women of Cyprus..
If you're up for it, I'd be happy to see you at the Tall Table and get the straight scoop on the economy in Greece, versus Cyprus,
Looks like the business owners would need to speak several languages.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/13/16 at 05:38:43

4F5C4B4A55585E5C5708390 wrote:

[quote author=696B6E6B723033020 link=1475865000/30#31 date=1476286070]I don't know if you can be of any help on that as I live in Cyprus. This is a small island located in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. Far away from you!

Never would've guessed, English is perfect.

The stator is a common part among other models.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1466140241/0#0[/quote]

Thanks! ;)
Here in Cyprus, English is the very next thing we learn just after we can communicate with each other. Sometimes this happens before we learn to walk. Keep in mind that we were UK's territory from 1878 - 1960...

Anyways... This guy in the link you provided seems to have had the same problem as I do.

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/13/16 at 05:45:43

7F6066617C7B4A7A4A72606C27150 wrote:

I really am impressed that people living in Texas know something about Greek and Cypriot economy!
Give that list of the 10 prettiest women just for cross checking!!!
According to your info you live in Dallas. I was next to Dallas back in 2009, at Irving. I was attending a training there at Abbott Laboratories as I am a service engineer on these instruments. Thats a pitty I didn't know you then...

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/16 at 11:44:17

You still have a passport,,
And I don't know what I Really know,, but I suspect the truth about the Greek economy and conditions there are worse than what we have been being told. The media has become such a political tool that I don't trust them. I would like a bit more of an inside scoop.

I'm about 1/2 way between Dallas and Shreveport La.
So far out in the country that it's been more than a year since I have heard a siren on a fire truck, ambulance or cop car..
Pretty quiet out here..

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by Andreas on 10/13/16 at 12:12:58

I do have a passport and a still valid Visa. What I don't have is the time and money!
Totally with you about the media... This is a global phenomenon (greek word by the way...). Media is the greatest weapon of governments to manipulate people the way they want. I live here and I am not sure either about the truth. The only sure thing is corruption in the high levels of society, leaving the people below like you and me struggling to survive!
Anyway... I believe that we are getting outside the scope of this thread!

Title: Re: Often battery draining and now wont start at a
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/16 at 12:42:50

Yep, and I repeat the invitation to come to the Tall Table, the Politics and Religion area.. I would appreciate hearing about what you know about Greece. We heard some for a short while, then it seems it kinda just died..