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Message started by youzguyz on 09/29/16 at 11:01:42

Title: Observations on a high mileage engine tear down
Post by youzguyz on 09/29/16 at 11:01:42

The time has come, the walrus said, to wrench on many things...

At 155,523 miles, Thumper has been taken out of service for some semi-major work.
Reasons for work.
1. Using too much oil (compression isn't horrible though. Suspect valve seals)
2. Clutch slipping in 5th gear. Enough to aggravate.

To set the stage.
Mobil 1 was used until 60,000 miles. Rotella T6 since then.
Things that were done prior to this tear down that are engine related.
Verslavy put in and put on 2nd hole (miles unknown).
Cam chain replaced with Nitrided at 81,000
Verslavy put on 2nd hole at 105,000
Started chasing left side oil leak
Starter o-ring, 135,000
main oil seal and o-ring 139,000
alt cover gasket 142,000
Stator shorted 153,000

Boys and Girls .. THAT IS ALL THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THE ENGINE to this point.
Other things have gone out. (Belt, carb slider x 2, carb float seat o-ring, front wheel bearing, rear pulley bearing, mufflers, etc)
Other things have broken from abuse (rear fender x 3, spokes, muffler bracket x 2, rear shock, etc)

So, why this post? So I can tell you what I am seeing as I tear this engine down.
I ain't near as eloquent as other posters, so just deal with that.

Clutch arm is right at the lower mark, indicating some wear is likely.
Clutch cover gasket. Hard as a ROCK. Cleanup is going to be a pain.

Cam chain tensioner.
Only 10mm out from the barrel??? I was truly expecting that thing to be at the limit of the Verslavy.

Cam. Looks good to me (should I take pictures?)
Cam journals. Look good too.
A little wear on the rocker arms.

More later :D

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/29/16 at 12:55:07

584E545B4654585B210 wrote:
The time has come, the walrus said, to wrench on many things...

At 155,523 miles

I can't even imagine this type of mileage on an air-cooled engine.

Yes, photos.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Kris01 on 09/29/16 at 17:24:46

That's impressive mileage! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 09/30/16 at 05:31:59

It is a good indicator that cam/rocker wear doesn't have to occur when you use a proper oil. I bought a bike with 3,800 miles on it and a the cam and rockers were badly worn - most likely from using the wrong oil and letting the bike idle on the sidestand.

Your 2002 bike doesn't even have the rockers with hardened inserts that are in the 2005 and later bikes.

It is a tough call on what should be renewed in this engine. The crank and counterbalance shaft bearings have a lot of miles on them - but could be fine. And should the case be split to renew the 14 year old sealant? I am pretty certain I would replace all the gaskets and rubber seals.

And while you have it apart - I am starting to believe that if you want a bike that is oil tight, it is necessary to put some sealant on the copper washers under the cylinder studs....several bikes have leaked oil from these washers/nuts, as well as the short studs under the intake/exhaust ports.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/16 at 06:18:43

Flat bottom pan, lay clutch cover gasket side down in something to soften the gasket, but not eat your clear coat.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 09/30/16 at 13:00:43

7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 wrote:

Flat bottom pan, lay clutch cover gasket side down in something to soften the gasket, but not eat your clear coat.

What goes in the pan? "something" doesn't tell me much.
And once I find the "something" that does the trick on the cover, I can soak that into some paper towels and put it on the engine case where the clutch cover mates to loosen that up.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 09/30/16 at 16:16:49

Photos are at this link:
http://imgur.com/a/RhTYO
Sorry about the blue tinge. LED lighting

General comments.
Piston top has a large patch of carbon in the middle. Looks OK besides that.
Cylinder wall is perfect. No gouges, no streaks. Anything weird you see in the pictures is from lighting.

Valves.
I have no idea why that one valve is white and the others are black.

Cam, journals, rockers, as described above

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 09/30/16 at 16:20:59

7C474A5D4C405B5D464E435C2F0 wrote:

I will probably pull the cylinder off so I can replace the rings. At that point, I should be able to at least feel for any play in the crankshaft and related parts. If it seems to be OK, I won't split the case. If I do need to split the case, then any bearings, etc, that I can get to will be replaced.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by batman on 09/30/16 at 17:08:52

Wild guess on the exhaust valve ,it's in the most direct path to the header ,and while the carbon on the other valves are cooked medium this one sees hotter gas temps and maybe more flow and gets welldone.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Kris01 on 09/30/16 at 18:39:21

It does seem that the one valve is running a little hotter than the other three. Maybe valve lash is tighter?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/16 at 19:39:38

I'm fond of diesel. I Doubt it would hurt the clear coat.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/01/16 at 03:33:27

I know why the one exhaust valve is white....I don't know why the other one is dark? Both of the exhaust valves are normally white on this bike.

I don't think valve clearance would have made much of a difference....a few thousandths of difference between valves is going to have very little effect on how long the valve is on the seat or being lifted.

The rest of the parts look surprisingly good. I suppose carbon build up is normal on an engine with this kind of mileage - and the type of fuel you use can have a big effect on this, as the fuels sold by Chevron,Shell,BP, etc. have more cleaning additives than the bargain brand fuels.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by smokin_blue on 10/01/16 at 05:25:22

My guess would be the white valve had normal valve clearances so it was lifting and heating normally from the exhaust gasses flowing past it. The carboned up valved if anything I would guess had high clearances to the point it didn't lift so it never heated, just like the intake valves. If it stays on it's seat during the exhaust pulse it will stay much cooler for two reasons. One the host gasses are never flowing over the entire surface and two it spends all it's time on the valve seat which is it's main heat sink to transfer heat out of the valve. Bike would still run it would just be lacking some performance at high RPMs.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/01/16 at 07:54:11

155,500 miles
Just say every moment was sixty mph, ,5,000 rpm.
155,500 minutes x 5,000 rpm
That's 7, 775, 000 revolutions.
It never idled, never rolled through a parking lot fading the clutch, ,, just sixty mph at 5,000 rpm..
I don't know what the rpm is at sixty,
That's just a rough figure to appreciate what that one cylinder Did. Time in lower gears, rolling through city streets, revolutions per mile increase,
Little engine probably has ten million revolutions on it.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Kris01 on 10/01/16 at 09:27:46

7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 wrote:

I don't know what the rpm is at sixty...

A little over 4000. ;)

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by norm92de on 10/01/16 at 12:44:27

That is indeed impressive mileage.

I don't know how one of those old British singles would have stacked up. Not so well I think, especially with an open carb!

I had an old 46000 miles -when I got it- BSA B31, 350, It plugged on for a few more years as far as I know. It would rattle your teeth loose, solid frame rear end as well. Those were the days, I think? :)

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/01/16 at 22:07:45

764F544E0D0C3D0 wrote:

[quote author=7D6264637E7948784870626E25170 link=1475172102/0#13 date=1475333651]I don't know what the rpm is at sixty...

A little over 4000. ;)[/quote]

Thanks, the little thing spun quite a few times..

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/01/16 at 23:29:51

I quickly figured about 620,000,000 revolutions at 4000 rpm. But I'm not a mathematical genius. 620 million.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/02/16 at 06:44:45

And the price keeps going up. :(

Both chain tensioner guides are cracked. Photo's have been added to the set at: http://imgur.com/a/RhTYO
Some cracks are almost all the way through. The plastic feels brittle.

Anybody have gently used ones laying around? ::)

The cylinder and piston look OK:
No scoring on the piston skirt.
No scoring on the cylinder. No detectable ridge on the cylinder at TDC, just expected discoloration.

Even so, consensus from my mechanic friends say to bore and hone it out to the next ring size (10 over?) to avoid any possibility of future problems.
Plan is to take it to a reputable place that does such things for motorcycles and see what they say.

I re-arranged the order of the images so most recent ones are at the top.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by smokin_blue on 10/02/16 at 12:53:48

If you don't have a noticeable ridge then your wear is probably minimal. I would find a reputable shop or dealer than can measure your cylinder and piston for wear. Check it to suzuki specs. If all looks good then go for a hone with a bar hone not a ball hone. That will true up any small imperfections. I wouldn't waste the money on an over bore if there isn't a good reason to need to do it. New rings and roll.

Make sure you put in new piston circlips. They are not worth having pop out at this stage.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/04/16 at 06:36:23

This engine build would cause me to do some thorough soul searching.

On the one hand - the motor is most likely the highest mileage Savage engine on the planet. It would be nice to do as little as possible and see just how long the other parts can go. If the cylinder is good, and the piston is good...maybe the rings are just worn out or the tension has relaxed a bit. Clean and inspect things, throw in some rings, valve seals and other rubber parts/gaskets and head plug to stop any future leaks, and get it back on the road so you can start racking up more miles ASAP.

On the other hand - if you want to go for another 150,000 miles before you pull it apart again....maybe more parts need to be removed/replaced. Rings grooves in the piston do wear and change shape which makes it so the rings don't work as well as they used to. Exhaust valve stems do stretch over time, and ultimately the valve can come apart. Your rocker arms are the old 1 piece style - and they are not as durable as the newer 2 piece style on the 2005 and later bikes (although your choice of oils has proven the 1 piece rockers can hold up to a lot of use). I have no idea how long crank and counterbalance shaft bearings can last. And.....I can't leave well enough alone and I am sure I would be using a new 94mm Wiseco rather than using a stock piston with 150,000+ miles on it.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/04/16 at 06:44:15

I still think you should at least let corporate office Suzuki know that a 155,000 mile Savage exists. It's probably the highest miles ever Seen on one.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by ohiomoto on 10/04/16 at 07:03:36

Some of you kids won't get this but...

http://www.northpointtoyota.com.au/-/toyota/lib/images/uploaded/owaf2.jpg

And I know what Dave is saying. I would probably do the minimum and see how long I can run it. Just because. :)

On the other hand, my OCD would kick in and I would invest more money into the motor than the bike is worth only to have it blow up a month later. :(

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/04/16 at 11:11:54

I hope the bore is not too out of round or too wide at the top.
The ridge, mentioned earlier, is a fair clue.
The bearings have Literally been around, and around,, if you can't just hone, check the piston ring grooves and wrist pin,,
I don't see boring and working the bottom end harder with a meaner top end,. I WOULD, but only after I talked to and got it looked at by someone I really trusted.
If you got 155,000 miles out of it already, just how healthy is the bottom end?
Have you done any
Pushing, pulling, shoving, seeing what the crankshaft will do?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 11:32:05

714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:

My intent is the first hand. I will be doing as little as possible so it stays "stock" and on original parts. At the same time, I will be doing all that needs done to make a fix "right" and not just a half fix to save a few $.
I.E.
Replace the rings, but not the piston unless it needs to go up a size or is out of spec.
Yes, hone the cylinder, but not bore it unless it is too far out.
Those will be decided by the machine shop. Just dropped it off today. They will call and let me know.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by verslagen1 on 10/04/16 at 11:35:44

pay attention to the fit of the skirt of the piston to the cylinder.
excessive wear is noted as a cause for piston slap.

and if you have wear, you might consider plating the piston.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 11:46:28

534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:

I did a bunch of pushing pulling shoving and smacking to check the bottom end bearings. Everything rotates super smooth. No bearing "click" in the smack test. There is no vertical play in the crank or connecting rod that I can detect. Minimal side play where the connecting rod connects to the crankshaft.

I'm not going to open it up any further.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/04/16 at 11:46:37

Back in my day (cough, cough)....the local machine shop could knurl the piston skirt and make the fit tight again.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 11:55:24

32213637282523212A75440 wrote:

pay attention to the fit of the skirt of the piston to the cylinder.
excessive wear is noted as a cause for piston slap.

and if you have wear, you might consider plating the piston.

I left the piston with the machine shop as well.. and a copy of the engine specs. I will not go cheap on the piston. If it is worn out of specs, it gets replaced.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 12:07:08

And I finally got around to checking the clutch disks.
As I mentioned at first, I am having issues with the clutch slipping in 5th gear.

The measurement I show is the smallest I saw on a given disk.

Odd disk Specs: Std 3.45 to 3.55 Wear Limit: 3.15
Mine: 3.45

Specs for the other disks:
Std: 2.92 to 3.08 Wear Limit: 2.62
Mine:
Disk 1: 2.85
Disk 2: 2.87
Disk 3: 2.85
Disk 4: 2.84
Disk 5: 2.90

So, disks are all at or below the lower "Standard" thickness, but not down to the wear limit.

The springs are still within spec.

Pictures of the disks are here: http://imgur.com/a/RhTYO
They look OK. Not glazed, not burned.

I am getting a gently used clutch to replace mine.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by ohiomoto on 10/04/16 at 12:12:17

Piston kits are relatively inexpensive. Considering the miles and the fact that you have it tore down, I'd toss one in.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by verslagen1 on 10/04/16 at 12:28:46

47514B44594B47443E0 wrote:

I had a bearing fail due to the cage splitting allowing the bearings to bunch together.
I think I would give each one a tug to see if any are loose.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by norm92de on 10/04/16 at 12:50:52

Youzguyz,
Thanks for taking the time to post all the info. The engine must be a remarkable little devil to have gone this far. Suzuki ought to know as well.

An air cooled single: Wow. :)

Norman.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 12:53:08

554651504F4244464D12230 wrote:

[quote author=47514B44594B47443E0 link=1475172102/15#26 date=1475606788]
I did a bunch of pushing pulling shoving and smacking to check the bottom end bearings. Everything rotates super smooth. No bearing "click" in the smack test. There is no vertical play in the crank or connecting rod that I can detect. Minimal side play where the connecting rod connects to the crankshaft.

I'm not going to open it up any further.

I had a bearing fail due to the cage splitting allowing the bearings to bunch together.
I think I would give each one a tug to see if any are loose.[/quote]

The ones I can get to (right side) are OK. I am not going to open the alternator side and pull the flywheel.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 12:58:33

42454442404259422D0 wrote:

Piston kits are relatively inexpensive. Considering the miles and the fact that you have it tore down, I'd toss one in.

I'm not sure what you mean by "piston kit".
The OEM piston is about $76.00
A set of rings is about $31.00 (which will be replaced in any case)

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/04/16 at 13:02:46

Sounds like Youzguyz has figured out what he needs to do to get the engine going again.........The good news is that it is more or less just "maintenance" of a high mileage engine - and not repair of anything that is broken.

On with the show! :)

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/04/16 at 13:09:08

Exactly,, get it back on the road, and don't do anything that is Not necessary.
Be cool to see it make another 155k,,

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/04/16 at 13:26:06

Jog and Norm.

You can't just send Suzuki Corporate an email to let them know. Snail mail is all they accept. (please include VIN, all service records, etc, etc)

I posted a message on the Suzuki FaceBook site. It is up to them if they want more info. https://www.facebook.com/SuzukiCycles/?fref=ts

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/04/16 at 13:28:58

Youzguyz, you are awesome. For getting a savage to last that long, and for lasting that long on a savage. All the best with the rebuild.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/04/16 at 14:30:35

4F59434C51434F4C360 wrote:

You've done what a reasonable person would do.
If Suzuki has the least inclination toward building a dependable machine, they know we exist.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by ohiomoto on 10/04/16 at 19:50:18

A piston kit generally includes a piston, rings, wrist pin and a top rod bearing.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Savageman on 10/04/16 at 21:57:03

How the Hell did you put 155,000 miles on your bike? You must liveon it 8 hrs a day. Are you sure the odometer is right? :-?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/06/16 at 12:31:29

5C5B5A5C5E5C475C330 wrote:

A piston kit generally includes a piston, rings, wrist pin and a top rod bearing.

I haven't seen any for an LS650. 94mm or over size. Do you know of a source?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/06/16 at 12:39:14

253329263B2925265C0 wrote:

[quote author=5C5B5A5C5E5C475C330 link=1475172102/30#40 date=1475635818]A piston kit generally includes a piston, rings, wrist pin and a top rod bearing.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/06/16 at 12:54:48

695B4C5B5D5F575B540F0C3A0 wrote:

How the Hell did you put 155,000 miles on your bike? You must liveon it 8 hrs a day. Are you sure the odometer is right? :-?

I've always run stock tire sizes (except once, for a short time). I also have a Vapor speedometer thingy, and that odometer is close to the odometer on the tank.

Let's see.. I bought it in '06 w/ 3000 miles on it. Not sure when in '06. For the sake of easy math let's say:
10 years for 152,000 miles is 15,200 per year which is 292 miles per week. I ride just about every Sat, Sun, Holiday, running chores, etc.
Sounds about right. :D

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/06/16 at 12:55:51

73484552434F545249414C53200 wrote:

[quote author=253329263B2925265C0 link=1475172102/30#42 date=1475782289][quote author=5C5B5A5C5E5C475C330 link=1475172102/30#40 date=1475635818]A piston kit generally includes a piston, rings, wrist pin and a top rod bearing.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/06/16 at 15:22:50

1F24293E2F23383E252D203F4C0 wrote:

I haven't seen any for an LS650. 94mm or over size. Do you know of a source?[/quote]

Stock pistons are only available from your local or online Suzuki Parts dealer. It appears the 94mm piston and 94mm rings are purchased separately.....and they are only a set if you buy the oversize 94.5mm piston set. (The wrist pin and clips are also purchased individually).[/quote]j

We have a 94mm Forged piston that includes rings and wrist pin.
It is a Wiseco with a slightly raised crown which produces 10.5:1 compression ratio. It does add a nice little punch. [ch128526]
Just $199

It cost a few dollars more than a stock piston but it is much stronger, being Forged.

Besides, they are downright beautiful to look at.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Savageman on 10/06/16 at 16:40:49

Allot of miles! Keep on thumpen

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/06/16 at 17:04:34

Neal, I got the box.
Nice packing job.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/07/16 at 06:22:44

474A45484E59191C2B0 wrote:

Neal, I got the box.
Nice packing job.

Paid UPS to pack it.. Glad they did it good!

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/07/16 at 06:28:11

Just got off the phone with the machine shop...

Stand by... this is some serious stuff going on here.. Just.. what can you say when you get that kind of news??? :-/

I mean.. you think you are doing OK.. It looked pretty good to me when I took it off.. ya know?

Well.. total taper (out of perfect) is .. less than .. .002 inches. :o

No bore needed. No cleanup needed. They honed it, and I am good to go with the existing piston, which they checked and cleaned up as well.
All I need to buy is a ring set!
:D

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/07/16 at 06:39:22

Forgot to mention when I pulled the head out of the box that the cam bearing surfaces looked absolutely beautiful.
The valves had a weeeee bit of carbon on them though.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/07/16 at 06:49:03

This is an incredible testimony to what can be achieved when you use good oil, change it regularly, keep you idle speed up, and don't abuse your bike.

Youzguyz....I looked for your post on the Suzuki Facebook page. I couldn't find it. I was going to post a comment of support. How long ago did you post on that site?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/07/16 at 07:11:54

665D5047565A41475C545946350 wrote:

Posted on 10/04. If you click on visitor's posts on the right side.. then keep on showing more, you will eventually see it. Guess not newsworthy enough to put in the feed. ::)

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/07/16 at 21:02:42

That's such surprisingly good news. Wow,,

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Rodger on 10/09/16 at 13:26:51

Congrats on the high mileage achievement! Amazing that there's so little wear, too.

So, since I have a 2015 S40 and I'm 59, if I take care of it as you have yours, I could still be riding it (or at least LOOKING at it) when I'm ready for the Old Soldiers' Home...?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/09/16 at 15:34:26

It is indeed amazing. Comparing youzguyz' 155kmiles with the minimal work other guys manage before destroying the engine really illustrates how neglecting the machine can ruin it. Maybe Youzguyz got one accidentally built from all primo parts but still it's a brilliant result, especially the bore wear news. Wow!
On the similar topic, I have a Holden Commodore wagon with the old Buick 3.8 litre V6. Just pulled the heads off last week to replace a burnt valve (first time the engine's been opened since built in 1992) and found zero lip on the bores and the factory honing marks are still visible. Just a quick lap of valves for run, new ex valve and back to work. 280,000 miles. Doesn't sound as impressive as 450,000km but most of these donks are ready for scrap or rebuild over here by 250,000km. This one gets the regular maint. too.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Rodger on 10/09/16 at 15:51:24

Hey, Gizzo,

I had a 1991Oldsmobile Delta88 with the 3.8L V6. At 265,000 miles, it still didn't use any oil, got mid-to-high 20's mpg...only engine malfunction was the cam position magnet breaking out of plastic cam gear holder (replaced timing chain & gears while I was there).

I'd still be driving it if some yahoo hadn't run off the road, pushing the Olds thru my garage. *sigh*

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/16 at 16:39:11

I'd still be driving it if some yahoo hadn't run off the road, pushing the Olds thru my garage. *sigh*
...

Dude, that sux..

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/09/16 at 17:33:49

Bummer. :(

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/16 at 18:38:27

Yeah, it's just UhMaizing how many miles you can put on something in ten feet.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Kris01 on 10/09/16 at 19:32:02

That's exactly 0.0018939393939393939393939393939394 miles, JOG! ;D

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/12/16 at 04:45:45

This is a PITA >:(

The cylinder gasket (cylinder to head) is hard as a rock and "welded" to the surfaces.
I have tried every kind of chemical known to mechanics. I have consulted with machine shop gurus.
I have watched enough youtube to .. puke. Everybody says everybody else is doing it wrong.
I am working it down, slowly.. hopefully surely.
If you want to offer up a suggesting, go right ahead. In the mean time I will continue to use my current snake oil (CRC Gasket Remover) and scrape, scrape, scrape away..

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/12/16 at 05:06:05

52445E514C5E52512B0 wrote:

The cylinder gasket (cylinder to head) is hard as a rock and "welded" to the surfaces.

Well....you have been riding and heat bonding that gasket to he head far longer than anyone else ever has.

I use a piece of plexiglass that is sharpened into a plastic chisel to scrape gaskets, and it needs to be sharpened frequently. These scrapers can also be made form Ebony or a similar very hard wood, and there are commercial gasket scrapers that are made form materials that won't scratch metal.

I also use a sheet of wet/dry sandpaper duct taped to a sheet of glass (I have a tempered piece from a small glass coffee table). I use 360 or 400 and move the head back/forth while flushing with water to keep the paper from gumming up....and keep sanding until the head surface is clean and shiny. I do the same with the top side of the head, head cover and valve inspection caps just to make sure everything is clean, square and without any burrs.

http://i63.tinypic.com/166jce8.jpg

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by ohiomoto on 10/12/16 at 05:34:48

516A6770616D76706B636E71020 wrote:

[quote author=52445E514C5E52512B0 link=1475172102/60#62 date=1476272745]The cylinder gasket (cylinder to head) is hard as a rock and "welded" to the surfaces.

I use a piece of plexiglass that is sharpened into a plastic chisel to scrape gaskets, and it needs to be sharpened frequently. These scrapers can also be made form Ebony or a similar very hard wood, and there are commercial gasket scrapers that are made form materials that won't scratch metal.

http://i63.tinypic.com/166jce8.jpg[/quote]

If you have a ski shop in your area you can get a plastic wax scraper much like Dave described. We sharpen those by running them down a file lying flat on a work bench after every few passes (when waxing skis).

For engine work, I grew up using razor blades but you do have to be careful not to dig into the metal. Sandpaper or emery cloth for final clean up is fine as long as you don't sand low spots into the surface.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/12/16 at 05:45:45

This stuff laughs at plastic scrapers of any kind.. even after a soaking in the removal snake oil.
Once I get it down to metal I will cleanup with a fine sandpaper attached to a known flat surface, like that glass Dave mentioned.

I am using the "90 degree with a razor blade scrape" method, and I have dullled 3 razor blades so far.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by ohiomoto on 10/12/16 at 05:49:18

Have you tried using a heat gun to soften things up? They are cheap at your local home improvement store and come in handy for lots of stuff.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/12/16 at 06:16:39

Well they do make gasket remover things the fit into an air tool/drill....they are a rotary Scotch Bright pad and they work great on cast iron and steel. You have to be really careful with them on aluminum, especially when you are near the edges as they will remove aluminum and round off the corners (they should not be used on the thin surfaces of the engine side covers or the cylinder head cover). You might be able to use them safely on the big flat areas of the cylinder head.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/12/16 at 06:23:04

797E7F797B796279160 wrote:

Have you tried using a heat gun to soften things up? They are cheap at your local home improvement store and come in handy for lots of stuff.

not yet. I don't have a heat gun, but I do have a propane torch. I am tempted...

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/16 at 06:23:36

Extreme care with a wide file has been something I have done.
Gotta keep it unclogged, tho.

I've used wood chisels, bevel down, to get it down close.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/12/16 at 06:24:49

447F7265747863657E767B64170 wrote:

I am leary of anything that abrades like that. The gasket material appears to be harder than the aluminum. So anything that contact both surfaces at once... bad news.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by ohiomoto on 10/12/16 at 06:57:19

72647E716C7E72710B0 wrote:

[quote author=797E7F797B796279160 link=1475172102/60#66 date=1476276558]Have you tried using a heat gun to soften things up? They are cheap at your local home improvement store and come in handy for lots of stuff.

not yet. I don't have a heat gun, but I do have a propane torch. I am tempted...[/quote]

I'd stick to the heat gun. You want to get it hot without burning your motor to a crisp.

Google "heat gun gasket removal". It works for most people. I mean you can remove old paint with a heat gun. I use mine for everything from to custom fitting ski boots to rebuilding golf clubs. Just get one, you won't regret it. :)

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/12/16 at 07:03:57

3433323436342F345B0 wrote:

[quote author=72647E716C7E72710B0 link=1475172102/60#68 date=1476278584][quote author=797E7F797B796279160 link=1475172102/60#66 date=1476276558]Have you tried using a heat gun to soften things up? They are cheap at your local home improvement store and come in handy for lots of stuff.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/16 at 07:37:34

I have a butane soldering iron, about forty bucks, pull the end off and it's a tight blue fire. The heat is not at all like a MAPPgas or butane plumbers soldering torch. Controllable by moving it along, but a genuine heat gun is probably the easiest, safest bet. Adhesives get soft when they get good and hot.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Kenny G on 10/12/16 at 08:15:42

YouzGuyz,

If your wife has EasyOff oven cleaner you might want to try a dab of it on a spot on the gasket to see what it does.

When the EasyOff is finished working rinse it off with hot soapy water as it will tarnish aluminum.

Kenny G

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/12/16 at 17:03:13

If that is the "Original type Easy-Off" be careful, it will eat aluminum.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by batman on 10/12/16 at 19:22:50

You might try aircraft stripper ,it takes the clear coat off the engine side covers! won't damage alum.I think NAPA sells it.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/16 at 21:12:56

Easy Koff

Gag me.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/17/16 at 11:00:57

The cylinder gasket mess is finally done. I stuck with the CRC Gasket Remover. Spray, soak, soak, soak, scrape, scrape, scrape, scrape.
Used a box cutter blade and single edge razor blade for the scraping.
It was like scraping on ROCK... literally. I was scraping it off in a fine poweder.
Finally got it thin enough to pop it loose from the metal.. a very little bit at a time.
Never did try the heat method. May have gone faster. May have made it worse.

See the results in the gallery.
http://imgur.com/a/RhTYO

Also some pics of the cleaned up piston. Thanks to Berryman dip for those results.

Now, for the question of week. The sight glass on the clutch cover had a tan "gasket" (for lack of a better word) around it. See the pics. It was pretty much disintegrated. Do I RTV around the glass, or just leave it alone?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/18/16 at 04:06:05

The little gasket on mine had disintegrated on an engine with only 1,200 miles on it, and it was peeling off. I just removed it, and you could seal it with the same stuff that you are going to use on the head cover (Suzukibond).

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/18/16 at 04:14:17

It was like scraping on ROCK... literally. I was scraping it off in a fine poweder..

Daaang,, that sounds like a serious not fun kinda deal.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/18/16 at 07:57:23

0E35382F3E32292F343C312E5D0 wrote:

I poured some 3 in 1 sewing machine oil in the groove. If it doesn't leak until I am ready to put the clutch cover on, I won't bother with any additional sealant. The tan piece was obviousely doing nothing before.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/18/16 at 08:00:39

534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:

It was like scraping on ROCK... literally. I was scraping it off in a fine poweder..

Daaang,, that sounds like a serious not fun kinda deal.

Very much not fun. Took about a week.
I am going to use a VERY thin (almost non existent) coat of Permatex Ultra Grey on the base gasket when I put it back together.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/18/16 at 13:48:29

I don't blame you! I mean, you don't wanna hafta go through THAT again in 155,000 miles..

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/25/16 at 03:28:25

The report is in from Lancer on the cylinder head and valves.
As I suspected, the valves have a few.. issues. ::)

New pictures in the gallery: http://imgur.com/a/RhTYO

And narrative from Lancer (I hope I have them in the right order)
1. #2 exhaust valve with 2 distinct cracks developing on the top edge.
2. Intake valves looked decent on the back side but had a few minute cracks developing on the face.
3. Deep wear grooves on the exhaust valves.
4. A closer look at the deep groove in the exhaust valve.
5. Face of intake valve showing a distinct crack on the top edge.
6. Intake valves, no groove on the contact surface.

And a direct quote: "Anyway, the basics are that the valves themselves are trashed, with cracks on the face openly visible, and with very deep wear grooves on the back side of the exhausts.
The springs are just barely inside the spec's, as are the valve guides.
All of them need to be replaced."

Happy happy joy joy.. :( ;D

So, my original suspicion appears to be correct.
"1. Using too much oil (compression isn't horrible though. Suspect valve seals)"

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/16 at 04:11:22

The cylinder is still straight and round, IDK about the ring grooves and lands, but you got your nickels worth outta the valves,guides and springs.

Will the seats be replaced?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/25/16 at 04:29:36

I don't know if the valve seats are beyond saving, I leave that to a machinist to make that call.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/16 at 04:35:51

6B7D676875676B68120 wrote:

[quote author=534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 link=1475172102/75#80 date=1476789257]It was like scraping on ROCK... literally. I was scraping it off in a fine poweder..

Daaang,, that sounds like a serious not fun kinda deal.

Very much not fun. Took about a week.
I am going to use a VERY thin (almost non existent) coat of Permatex Ultra Grey on the base gasket when I put it back together.[/quote]

I don't know how important that gaskets thickness is in the engine. Gosh, that Could slightly increase compression.
Retard cam timing a hair,
I'm sure curious about the Armen cam timing setup..
Wanna see how it works out.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 10/25/16 at 04:42:30

I seriously doubt that the valve seats will need to be replaced. On the head I took to Bill Moeller at Bore Tech, he freshened up the seats and said they were really hard....he had to use stones to cut them as his seat cutter wouldn't touch them. There is plenty of material in the seat for them to be ground to provide a new seating surface.

The valves however are another story. They are made very thin and light on a modern engine, and they need to be replaced when they become worn....they cannot be reground.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/25/16 at 05:48:07

77686E6974734272427A68642F1D0 wrote:

The cylinder is still straight and round, IDK about the ring grooves and lands, but you got your nickels worth outta the valves,guides and springs.

Will the seats be replaced?

Ring grooves are well within spec. The piston is fine in all respects. New rings installed on the piston and look OK.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/25/16 at 06:15:19

That's just wildly amazing. All the times that piston changed directions and all the times the fuel slammed into the compression ring,, just wow..

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/25/16 at 06:27:10

2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 wrote:

That's just wildly amazing. All the times that piston changed directions and all the times the fuel slammed into the compression ring,, just wow..

Thought I had posted this earlier.. guess not

Info on the old rings
thickness
Top 1.13 tolerance is 1.175 to 1.190
2nd 1.16 tolerance is same as top

free end gap
Top 11.2 normal is 11.5 limit is 9.2
2nd 11.4 normal is 14.0 limit is 11.2

I forgot to measure cylinder end gap when I pulled the piston. Then I busted the 2nd ring getting it off, then I had the cylinder honed, so.. no way to measure now.

They did their job, and were about worn out.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/25/16 at 14:21:34

Valve measurements from Lancer:

Valve guide ID: EX. 7.11mm, 7.19mm; IN. 7.13mm, 7.22mm
Spec. # 7.000-7.015mm
(all guides exceed spec's)

Valve stem OD: EX. 6.94mm, 6.94mm; IN 6.94mm, 6.93mm
Spec. # EX. 6.945-6.960mm, IN. 6.960-6.975mm
(exhaust at the bare minimum; both intake below minimum)

Valve stem to guide clearance: EX. 0.17mm, 0.25mm; IN. 0.19mm, 0.29mm
Spec. # EX. 0.040-0.070mm, IN. 0.025-0.055mm, max ware limit 0.35mm for EX & IN.
(both EX & IN are outside the spec # {the ideal number}, but have not reached the max wear limit.

Valve Springs:
Inner: EX. 36.29mm, 36.43mm; IN. 36.13mm, 36.52mm
Outer: EX. 40.77mm, 40.69mm; IN. 40.76mm, 40.69mm
Spec. # (outer wear limit): Inner 35.6mm; Outer 40.4mm
(all Inner and outer springs are still within limits but are very close, Inner. 0.5-0.9mm;
,Outer 0.3-0.4mm)

Sooooo.. to put it bluntly.. WORN OUT!

Just replace it all.. Leave something weak or close to limit is asking for too much trouble too soon.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/25/16 at 14:33:55

They look a lot better with all the carbon removed.

BEFORE

http://https://s26.postimg.org/f7iryh0nt/DSCN0087.jpg

AFTER

http://https://s26.postimg.org/xuomr1pjt/IMG_0185.jpg

http://https://s26.postimg.org/6y4niq6qh/IMG_0186.jpg

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/25/16 at 19:22:27

534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:

I don't know how important that gaskets thickness is in the engine. Gosh, that Could slightly increase compression.

It will have an effect on the squish band. Whether its a good or bad effect, I don't know. Anyone have a head off to check?

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/26/16 at 02:11:56

110B0F0D0C32031016100B060507620 wrote:

[quote author=534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 link=1475172102/75#80 date=1476789257]

I don't know how important that gaskets thickness is in the engine. Gosh, that Could slightly increase compression.

It will have an effect on the squish band. Whether its a good or bad effect, I don't know. Anyone have a head off to check?
[/quote]

What do you need checked?

Squish band will increase because the piston won't be moving as far up the cylinder. By the amount of a very thin film of ultra grey under a lot of pressure.

The impact will be "bad", but not measurable as far as hp, mpg, 0 to 60, or any other performance characteristic that anyone could care about.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by LANCER on 10/26/16 at 07:59:39

Are you talking about a spray on film, or brush on ?
I just don't see it making a difference.
Even if you brushed on a thicker coat it will squish out.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/26/16 at 08:16:30

4548474A4C5B1B1E290 wrote:

Are you talking about a spray on film, or brush on ?
I just don't see it making a difference.
Even if you brushed on a thicker coat it will squish out.

Brush on yamabond 4. then spread it even thinner with a swipe of the finger.
The only difference I want it to make is easier removal if and when.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by verslagen1 on 10/26/16 at 08:55:58

3B2D373825373B38420 wrote:

[quote author=4548474A4C5B1B1E290 link=1475172102/90#96 date=1477493979]Are you talking about a spray on film, or brush on ?
I just don't see it making a difference.
Even if you brushed on a thicker coat it will squish out.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/26/16 at 09:20:41

475443425D5056545F00310 wrote:

[quote author=3B2D373825373B38420 link=1475172102/90#97 date=1477494990][quote author=4548474A4C5B1B1E290 link=1475172102/90#96 date=1477493979]Are you talking about a spray on film, or brush on ?
I just don't see it making a difference.
Even if you brushed on a thicker coat it will squish out.

Brush on yamabond 4. then spread it even thinner with a swipe of the finger.
The only difference I want it to make is easier removal if and when.
[/quote]

Are you suggesting to NOT use a standard head gasket?
I don't know the spec's for yamabond4, but most likely it will burn out.
You'll need something like a copper wire around the cylinder to prevent it. Even with the copper sheet they apply the rtv to prevent leaks. So, it'll squish out to nothing.[/quote]

No.
This is for the cylinder BASE gasket, not the head gasket.
I will use the OEM cylinder base gasket, but I will put a very very thin layer of yamabond on it as well.

The OEM HEAD gasket is metal, and it goes on by itself. If any RTV would ever be used on that it would need to be the copper intense heat kind.
Like this:
https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-copper-spray-a-gasket-hi-temp-sealant/

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/26/16 at 13:33:24

534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:

What do you need checked?

Squish band will increase because the piston won't be moving as far up the cylinder. By the amount of a very thin film of ultra grey under a lot of pressure.

The impact will be "bad", but not measurable as far as hp, mpg, 0 to 60, or any other performance characteristic that anyone could care about

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 10/26/16 at 14:12:16

78626664655B6A797F79626F6C6E0B0 wrote:

[quote author=534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 link=1475172102/75#80 date=1476789257]

What do you need checked?

Squish band will increase because the piston won't be moving as far up the cylinder. By the amount of a very thin film of ultra grey under a lot of pressure.

The impact will be "bad", but not measurable as far as hp, mpg, 0 to 60, or any other performance characteristic that anyone could care about

youre probably right, it won't matter. But if Youre leaving out the base gasket and using goo,the piston will travel further up the bore and squish will increase (squish band gets smaller). It could be a good thing. Some Enfield guys have reported good results doing just this. The squish on them is like 1.5mm. Leaving the base gasket out makes it better and apparently cures some detonation issues. Just thought I'd mention it.
[/quote]
The gasket will stay in. I am trying to stay at stock as much as I can. No particular reason beyond learning what breaks next on this machine as long as you keep fixing what broke.
Thanks for the info!

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by gizzo on 10/26/16 at 15:29:35

Oh, right. I misread it and thought you were leaving the gasket out and just using the goo. Thanks :) .

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/26/16 at 21:05:27

3A2024262719283B3D3B202D2E2C490 wrote:

Oh, right. I misread it and thought you were leaving the gasket out and just using the goo. Thanks :) .

That's how I was reading it. I was concerned..

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by youzguyz on 12/03/16 at 13:44:55

Re-assembly is under way. No "major" ooops yet.

I know a proper break in is important, and I intend to stick to the rules:
no more than 1/3 throttle for 1st 500 miles. Vary throttle as much as possible, Change oil and filter at 500 miles.

Question. What should I use for "break in" oil? Clymers says single weight oil for that purpose.
Better question.. what have some of you that have done the over bore, piston replace, etc used for a break in oil?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by verslagen1 on 12/03/16 at 14:01:54

392F353A2735393A400 wrote:

Rot T with extra ZDDP, bring it up to 1500.

for break in, this is what I did and beast is running great. well, at least it isn't burning oil. ;D

Quote:

On the Street:
Warm the engine up completely:
Because of the wind resistance, you don't need to use higher gears like you would on a dyno machine. The main thing is to load the engine by opening the throttle hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear.

Realistically, you won't be able to do full throttle runs even in 2nd gear on most bikes without exceeding 65 mph / 104 kph. The best method is to alternate between short bursts of hard acceleration and deceleration. You don't have to go over 65 mph / 104 kph to properly load the rings. Also, make sure that you're not being followed by another bike or car when you decelerate, most drivers won't expect that you'll suddenly slow down, and we don't want anyone to get hit from behind !!

The biggest problem with breaking your engine in on the street (besides police) is if you ride the bike on the freeway (too little throttle = not enough pressure on the rings) or if you get stuck in slow city traffic. For the first 200 miles or so, get out into the country where you can vary the speed more and run it through the gears !

Be Safe On The Street !
Watch your speed ! When you're not used to the handling of a new vehicle, you should accelerate only on the straightaways, then slow down extra early for the turns. Remember that both hard acceleration and hard engine braking (deceleration) are equally important during the break in process.

And for the 1st couple of times, what the warm up. You want to gradually build up heat and let the seals break in gently. I did 15 mins, then let it cool completely, next time 30 mins, then cool. from then on you should be ok.

Title: Re: Observations on a high mileage engine tear dow
Post by Dave on 12/04/16 at 03:07:21

You are not in the same situation as a "new" engine. Your cam and rockers are already broken in, all the bottom end parts are original, and your piston and cylinder were within spec - but they are worn and not as tight as a new engine would be.....and new valves don't need a break in.

The only thing that you are breaking in are the rings, and those will take a little bit of time to get seated as the oil does provide a very good protection against friction. Avoid long periods of constant rpm, don't run the engine at high rpm for a couple hundred miles, and don't get it really hot. It is best not to let the engine idle for any length of time (STOP light duration is OK) - but once you get it running again take it out for a ride right away and get some resistance on the engine. I didn't do any full throttle runs on my engine when it was rebuilt - but I did do some 1/2 throttle acceleration and coasting to get compression and vacuum loads on the rings.