SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> The Cafe >> Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1473128958

Message started by Oldfeller on 09/05/16 at 19:29:18

Title: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Oldfeller on 09/05/16 at 19:29:18

A long time ago, I bought a bulk 1000 piece lot of 30-06 military surplus brass.

It contained everything under the sun and I sorted out the majority of it (Lake City) into 4 groups by numerical population according to the head stamp, with the fourth group being "others" and there were a LOT of the other group (about 300 pieces). I used up the first 3 sets, and now am no down into the multitude of small count lots of all sorts and types.

As I sorted and trimmed and primer pocket reamed this varying bunch, I noticed something I had read over and over, the US military brass made in Lake City is stronger, better brass than commercial made or foreign made military brass. This is true, I can vouch for it.

And there was one group that was the best of the best, straight, undented and untarnished after 65 years of bulk storage. Much better brass material than stuff made in the '60s and '70's.

1952 head stamp 30-06 Lake City brass. I salute you. You were made with USA domestic supplied brass in the post WWII manufacturing boom era right here in the USA. You are the good stuff.

You are the best in the world .....

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass .....
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/16 at 09:00:55

I took a little post lunch nap in the early afternoon after a morning of handling brass and had me a frightmare -- we were at Dave's place out at the shooting spot and Cheapie was there, and he had brought Cheapie reloaded ammo that he had "improved" that he wanted to go shoot in my rifle so he could chronograph it over my chrony.

I woke up with leg cramps.

I scared myself further with this thought while I was rubbing out my lower legs ..... just How much like Cheapie were we when we were younger, a lot younger ??? Some, I think.

Made me swear off naps after eating spicy kielbasa style hot dogs.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/06/16 at 11:38:51

I can almost hear the conversation from that nightmare...

"well is a standard load is good, then an overcharged load has to be better"

I agree, Lake City is some good surplus ammo.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/06/16 at 11:47:08

Military brass is heavier. 5.56, 7.62, 30-06 etc.
You have to keep your max loads 2 grains lower than in the books, as case capacity is lower due to the thicker brass.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by verslagen1 on 09/06/16 at 12:03:37

Well... I'm sure he'll want to mix his own brand of powder.
And cast his own lead, primers made from scratch by his dad.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/16 at 12:18:13

:) Military brass is Stronger Brass. Yes, it is. Strong is good, we like strong.

You chamfer out the primer pocket crimp zone (most of it, anyway) and that leaves a tight assed little primer pocket. The primer OD constricts where it goes past the tight zone, and re-expands when the primer goes off to 100% fill the hourglass shape. The top of the primer expands to fill the chamfer taper from where you beveled out the primer crimp.

I have never had a milsurp case fail, but I have had commercial brass heads over-expand because the brass was soft (the native brass and the heat treat wasn't optimal).

MM can vouch that I always obey the reloading books and my loads are always mild with well rounded primer tops after firing the rounds. hee hee

::)

Military brass is overbuilt on purpose as machine guns are HOT RUNNING suckers and rounds left in the chamber when you stop after firing for a bit can self-detonate from excess chamber heat and those cook off rounds are REALLY hot rounds when they cook off all at once like that ....

=======================================

Now, some new knowledge based on cubic boron nitride coated bullets and Reloader 19 powder.

Prep coat your completely clean bore with cubic boron nitride (alcohol and powder on a jag rag) then start working up from book max using a magnum primer. Mag primers are stronger cups and it takes more pressure to seat them, but they can take a lot more pressure and still give normal visuals on "load hotness".

You can cook up your own version of "light magnum" ammo at visually reduced pressures by loading compressed book loads of a "too slow" powder like Reloader 19 -- upon firing it spits the bullet out quicker due to greatly reduced bore resistance friction and it does not develop excess visual pressure signs on the primer or on the head face as the bullet leaves sooner and the pressure curve is lower and it peaks way deeper inside the barrel compared to untreated bullets.

A really really big broad pressure curve, if adjusted back up to be just as high as before has a lot more area under the curve compared to normal stuff and it transfers a lot more energy to the bullet (yes, even the heavier ones) than you can get with an untreated bullet and bore.

Indeed, you can actually LOSE some 50-60 fps on normal book loads using cubic boron nitride coating on bullets and bore if you don't counteract the effect somewhat. Common counteractions are using magnum primers and post-crimping the bullets to increase the shot start pressures.

Some crazy people use even more of a slower powder behind a heavy for the caliber bullet, but that seems just plumb crazy now doesn't it?

Moving those heavy slugs as fast (or faster) than dry untreated normal weight bullets at reduced or same pressure levels is just plain wrong, don't cha just know it?

There is some visual pressure sign "slight of hand" going on here, I freely admit this very openly right now. Having a broader flatter pressure curve is relatively easier on the magnum primer, which was over-built for old abrupt maximum pressure loadings common in the 7mm and 30 caliber magnums.

So, like I have said, some Cheapie types ::) have put in a few extra grains of "bullet compressed at seating" slower than normal powder until they get some "appropriate" primer pressure signs back again. They get some extra bullet speed and some more kick at the shoulder, but that is just the price they pay to get those results.

Other old shooters simply appreciate not getting their shoulders kicked around so badly and tend just to leave it slacking. Clean up is much easier as fouling (copper and powder) won't stick around when a CBN coated bullet is fired down a CBN coated bore.

Accuracy is good, too.

Reloader 19 is well known already for heavy 180 grain bullets in the '06, but folks playing with cubic boron nitride are learning new uses for the clean burning stuff with both 180's and 150's when playing the new lite magnum game in 30-06.

An example from 7mm-08 land: apart from it kicking too hard for an old man to like, a light tapered 22" 7mm-08 can spit a 160 grain bullet out at 3,000 fps using Reloader 19 and CBN coated bullets.

(actually, it can do 3,100 fps but I simply can't stand the kick with that one plus it is getting some head rotation burnishing and extractor cut out edges showing up on the case head).

That's potent full powered 160 grain 7mm bear and elk medicine coming from a light 22" short action carry rifle.

New, Evolutionary stuff, this.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/06/16 at 18:04:59

I had a 25-284 that sent them out quick. Now I shoot a 250 Savage Ackley improved. I like Savage in my guns and bike.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/06/16 at 18:09:19

Btw, I like prepping brass. I turn the necks, ream the primer holes and deburr them. I like the Lee dies and their factory crimp die and neck sizer.
It's been a couple years now since I've done any loading. Looking forward to getting moved and settled.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/16 at 18:16:03

I am a Savage man myself, so I understand completely.

My heavy gun is a police SWAT model in 30-06 (heavy bull barrel 180-220 grain bullet "barrier piercing" gun) and my walk & carry gun is a Stevens (Savage 110 short action) in 7mm-08.

Now, dating myself some --- I paid less than $600 for both rifles together, brand new. Today, either one of them would cost you nearly that much, thereabouts. Heck, the scopes would cost a pretty penny too.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/07/16 at 07:19:41

Mine is a 700, the Savage bolt guns just don't fit me. I've owned wood, plastic and a classic that was in 250 custom from the factory. My favorite Savage is the 99, but can't get past the heavy trigger.
Someday when wishes are horses, I'll own a Cooper lefty in 250ai. :)

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/07/16 at 07:32:58

My son has Gramps, his great Gramps, 99 in 300. He also has a Browning a bolt lh in 250ai I custom built him. Swing over scope bases with a windage adjustable folding rear on the rear base and an elevation adjustable front.
I've owned a dozen, maybe 99s, buy them needing repair, fix, shorten the barrel if it has cleaning rod wear and do what I can for the trigger and forearm beading, then sell.
My 700 has a lone wolf stock, shilen trigger, heavy, 18" barrel, Winchester wing type safety. Fluted bolt, ceramic coated and ultra bore coated barrel.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/16 at 11:09:53

You are describing a multi-generation gun loving family, that's a very good thing.

I swung in from the milsurp, cast bullet side of things. I sporterized Mausers in 8mm and 6.5x55 and designed molds to fit them and explored how to shoot accurately in those guns.

Eventually, I had enough fun money to buy some new guns and to go shoot them fancy expensive jacketed bullets, so I did.

Using multi cavity cast bullets (inherent variation cavity to cavity and cast to cast) in war worn milsurp bores I got accuracy like 6"-8" at 100 yards, which was good enough to hunt deer, certainly.

Using jacketed bullets in new bore guns, I got 1" to 4" accuracy (generally less accurate if the rounds were hotter) and I began to recognize ME, MYSELF AND I as the major cause of variation. I would also take a shot much further away as confidence in hitting the vitals increased tremendously.

Then I got old and my eyes went to shite ........ then I had heart surgery and got all frail and easily bruised.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/07/16 at 11:50:10

Always been intrigued by 6.5 bullets at 160 ish grains.
Would like to find a 150 grain 25 Cal bullet.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/16 at 12:23:32

http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p545/Ben35049/Capture_zpsdd6hjdxq.jpg

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/favorite-mould-for-the-6-5x55.675/

Yep, there ARE long cast bullet molds for the 6.5 caliber, and more moderate length molds as well. Here are some folks over at artful bullet wistfully wishing they could buy one today ....... but such are rare anymore as the dude went off to ride motorcycles a while back.

::)

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by SavageMan99 on 09/07/16 at 14:04:21

All I'd need then is a half inch Savage ball bearing for the front stuffer.

Title: Re: Prepping 30-06 brass ..... frightmare !!!
Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/16 at 13:28:12

Today, I cubic boron nitride coated 1,500 bullets inside 30 minutes.

How to is very easy. Put the bullets in your tumbler. Add one small tiny screwdriver tip of Johnson's Paste Wax (carnuba wax cut with solvents) and turn tumbler on and mix the bullets with your fingers until they get uniformly slick. Then tumble until solvent begins to leave, making bullets mildly sticky. Gently sprinkle Cubic Boron Nitride powder until the coating isn't getting any thicker (begins equilibrium transfer to the bowl surface).

Stop and let dry completely (several hours in the sun).

HOWEVER, if you screw up and get a clumpy distribution of CBN add a few drops of alcohol to re-liquefy the coating and redistribute it evenly by a carefully watched period of tumble. As soon as "even" returns, then cut the tumbler off and put it out in the sun to finish drying.

You can screw up as often as you like, no penalty. What sticks to the bowl gets used with the next batch of bullets, just add a tiny bit of paste wax and some alcohol to the raw bullets, let them tumble until the new bullets and bowl bowl reach an equilibrium then add more CBN as needed to get the coverage you want.

Don't use water, water makes CBN turn tannish brown and it looks ugly. Doesn't hurt it supposedly, but the wax and the water won't work together to make a coating.

The amount of wax used is tiny (just a very thin surface coating on the bullet) but it gives the CBN something lubricious to stick to that will firm up and hold it in place.

CBN is not harmful to you on your hands or in your mouth -- the largest use of CBN is women's cosmetics and I guarantee you have ingested some already by smooching up on women while you were younger. Gets sprinkled on babies all the time too.

Lead from tumbling the exposed bullet tips is bad for you though, so don't lick them or your fingers until you wash them good.