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Message started by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 15:13:17

Title: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 15:13:17

I adjusted my valves to .004 in. Some were just slightly out of spec (.006). I've been having a hard time trusting that inch pound torque wrench. I tested it against the big one, but that's not a very good test. Before I used the torque wrench, seems like I got them quite a bit tighter. Now that I used the torque wrench at 96 inch pounds supposedly, I get less than 1/8 turn. Even using my hand carefully, I get less than 1/8 turn. Just checking to see if I'm doing something wrong. Don't want the valve tappets falling apart on the highway. Verslagen guessed 1/8-1/4 turn. :-?

The feeler gauges can be deceiving. They take awhile to get into position, and then they often hang for awhile before they go all the way in.

Do those valve cover bolts need lubrication/antiseize? I'm guessing the answer is no? ::) The o rings are kinda flattened, but they should work okay. Don't know if I got the valve covers back on in the correct order. :-?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 15:26:03

Wait a minute! http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534

I saw that the "rocker arm shaft (exhaust) set bolt" gets 5.9-7.4 ft. lbs., which turns out lower than the 8 ft lbs I gave. It got me worried that I would have to do it again. However,
That list also shows that the "valve adjuster locknut" gets 9.6-11.8 ft. lbs. (115.2-141.6 in. lb.).

Which is correct? Verslagen said 6-8 ft.lbs. :-?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by gizzo on 08/26/16 at 15:32:34

Here we go again. You should be able to do a nut that small up by feel, by now. Why, with your mistrust of torque wrenches, are you doing that?
Using a feeler gauge is more of an art than a science. It takes practice to get the "feel".

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 16:01:44

Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.

You need to get some nuts and bolts and washers and put the head of a bolt in the vise and tighten up the nut till you tear it up.
Different sizes, a few of each.
Nuts and bolts are every day things. You act like each one is an alien creature.
Tighten stuff up, FEEL OF IT, and get on with life.
I was worried about the valve adjustment jam nuts the first few times, and I went back and checked them, but Why would I
Do it Over?

And how can you Use a torque wrench and Not wonder if you changed the adjustment?
It's designed to be adjusted, the adjuster is to be Held as the jam nut is tightened.
And That action can open the adjustment as the threads are pulled tight, and, if you don't Hold the adjuster, it can turn and Tighten the valve lash.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 16:24:05

I'm thinking it takes a little more than 8 ft lbs. :-? I'm going by feel now... not even using it.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 16:39:14

627D7B7C61665767576F7D713A080 wrote:

I appear to be a chronic overthinker... OCD... overkiller. :-/

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 16:59:24

Now that I got all of the procedure done and the covers put back on, worry struck me that I might have given the locknuts just a little too much. :sigh:. I'm going to put the now copper-anti-seized spark plug back in and sleep on it. :-/

Anybody had their valve tappets strip as they're going down the highway? :-/ :-? Is it something I need to worry about?

Cheap-the-worry-wart... ::)

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 17:04:51

I it's tighter than specified but it isn't destroyed, why touch it?
It's Okay to think, but practice being logical.
It's TIGHT, according to you and the specs.
It's Not Stripped.
So, WHY DIKK WITH IT?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 17:21:14

Meh... I reckon there's a place between just right and totally destroyed where the destruction comes but not till later. :-/

Steel can withstand a certain amount of stress. Above that, it may not break immediately... but later. Aluminum will eventually break from stress no matter what...

... If I remember right. I wonder how aluminum threads last so long under constant tension. :-?

If you guys say it'll be okay... :-/

Everything was pretty tight when I first loosened everything. The valve covers were pretty taught themselves. Of course, some of that probably works in over time. I doubt I could get everything that tight without hurting something. Back when I was trying the torque wrench, I tried to go to 120 inch lbs or so with the covers. It didn't feel right, so I stopped and backed off, realizing that I was dealing with soft aluminum. I wasn't going to have a repeat of the sprocket nut situation.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 18:08:22

Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.
Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.
Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.
Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.
Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.

Just because they List a torque for a threaded connector Doesn't mean you have to use a torque wrench.

Use your hands. Use your brain.
Valve inspection covers have an O ring that protrudes from a groove and seals on the engine. Tight enough to press the rubber down and seal off, tight enough to keep the bolts from vibrating loose.
For the head bolts you need a torque wrench. I didn't use a torque wrench on the clutch. I just popped it o n with the impact.
I'm smart enough to NOT hammer it..
I just use a ratchet on the covers and head cover.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 18:24:51

I think all this increased awareness and worry about overtorquing has got my natural senses screwed up. I found myself tightening and loosening the spark plug repeatedly 'cause I can't seem to find where I want any more. Kept trying to get it 1/8 turn. (I reckon that's what you're supposed to do :-/). With the engine moving around and stuff, it's hard to tell.

My 10 mm offset wrench was really too long. I often didn't use quite the whole length so I wouldn't be as likely to hurt anything.

That didn't include all the messing around with the valve adjuster nuts and cover bolts. :-/ If it's not too tight or too loose, it's about wearing the threads out. :-/ Ughhh.... ::)

Maybe my OCD will settle down after some sleep.

And, yes, I stopped using the torque wrench.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 18:36:47

Stop with the OCD.
It's Your Choice to do or not do anything.
Put the plug in, put the tool up.
If you didn't strip the threads, IT'S IN.
If you didn't get it tight enough, what happens?
It's Not as bad as Too tight.

How many times do you stand up after wiping your butt, put the pants up, buckle the belt,, and head for the door, stop, go back, drop trousers,sit down and wipe again?
No?
That's ridiculous?
So is putting it together and taking it apart.

My SIL always had an excuse. He's in prison now. We stopped
Helping him.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 18:40:27

;D About the butt wiping joke.

Alright... I'll try to get ahold of myself :grabs self:

We'll get this show on the road.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 18:44:43

It's not a joke, it's an illustration. It's me, trying to get you to take responsibility for your actions. Blaming doing goofy stuff on ocd is lame. It's a Rational Choice to pick up a wrench.
Put it together, stop.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 18:53:19

Sorry... Some of it was funny though.

Right... We'll get this thing put together.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 18:59:25

Well, yeah, it is funny, but it's not a joke.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by Kris01 on 08/26/16 at 19:04:52

I'm getting a headache.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 19:53:33

Try not to laugh so hard.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by Armen on 08/26/16 at 19:54:33

When Honda came out with the V-4 500cc 4 valve motors, the valve adjusters were microscopic. They sent out a service bulletin about proper torque of the locknuts because people were either stripping them, or they'd buzz off at the zillion RPM redline. At service school we had to go through the ritual of doing them right.
Justin is right. Just thread a piece of scrap, put a bolt in there, and tighten with a torque wrench. You'll have a pretty god idea how tight to make it.
Had an Airhead on the lift a few weeks ago that the owner complained was running poorly. Removed the valve covers and in each one was the locknut from the intake adjuster. And the adjuster had backed off to about 1/4" gap.
Holy crap.
I always keep a spare set of new adjusters and locknuts in stock for that kind of situation.
There is medication available for the kind of anxiety you describe.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by Ruttly on 08/26/16 at 20:27:45

Ut oh !

You did what ?

Gotta learn sometime.

Gotta a manual & bible ?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 20:35:59

You wouldn't believe how many hours I spent on that silly little valve job. ::)

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by Kris01 on 08/26/16 at 20:44:01

Yes I would!

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 20:57:19

We're not talking about doing it like everyone else... in the frame. No... I did it with the engine sitting on the floor with the valves right there in front of my face. ::)

How much more ridiculous can I get?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 21:22:36

Here's a picture of my spark plug. Looks like its running a tad rich. I'm not entirely sure it was tight. Look at that discoloration around the insulator. I wonder if it is the right model too. I think it's a Champion RA6HC. Didn't check the gap.

I have a plan on getting it breathing better. ;) That paper filter is nasty with dirt. I'll get a picture of it when I get a chance. I'm gonna do Oldfeller's/Paladin's quilt batting filter. Already got the batting. I'm gonna run it with the paper filter a bit first just so I can tell the difference. If that's not enough, the dyna mod should finish it off.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 21:23:57

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/26/16 at 21:59:06

I think it is the right model from what I've read.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by sauvage on 08/26/16 at 22:46:24

On a side note you can always check a torque wrench by sticking the square lug in a vice with the handle horizontal and hang a known weight of it at the correct distance.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/27/16 at 08:25:17

X pounds hung at the one foot from center of the socket =
Foot Pounds.
By changing the weight you can test it through a range.
Proving it's off or on, either way, by making a note of the accuracy you can use it.
The problem IS, some of the bolts and the threads that they are screwed into won't take the torque listed. If you just walk off into it and Don't use the Hands and Brain you'll be stripping and breaking stuff. Use the ratchet or end wrench, work the pattern, use the TW every now and then and see where you are. If it's Feeling like something is on the edge of going south, or you can tell that the clamping is done, then the question becomes,
Is the penalty for it NOT being adequately torqued greater than or less than the penalty for breaking or stripping something?

If it's a side cover, the penalty is a drip, and you can get a wrench on it, even with the exhaust installed.
If it's the head, and it's not tight enough, you could be going back in, pulling the head, doing the gasket, and Still facing the feeling of it being tight before it's properly torqued.

The cost of new bolts and nuts is a lot less than making a mess, fixing it, AND then buying the new nuts and bolts.

If anyone is inexperienced and doesn't know what it feels like just as a bolt comes fully Tight, get a few sizes, get a couple of bits of flat scrap, bolt them together and bust a few.
Use oil and grease and see how different it is.
Why Learn on the important stuff?

3 of each size, at least. Dry, oil, grease, and in a vise or using Something big enough to hold the experiment steady, so You can feel the way the bolt is acting and not be fighting with it.
A well spent few dollars.
And don't go to the hardware store.
Go to the industrial supply house.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/27/16 at 08:28:39

Don't you have to also factor in the weight of the wrench's handle while checking calibration?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/27/16 at 08:43:08

You Can, but it's negligible unless you have a Fat TW. I would not bother. There is a Range for every torque on every bolt.
Rather than immediately hunt for the detail Not addressed,
Use the information that is given.

What does a 3/8" beam TW weigh?

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by Armen on 08/27/16 at 09:27:21

Take a bend beam torque wrench, find a socket that fits over the drive end of your click wrench. Set the click wrench to whatever setting, work them against each other, and see if it clicks when the bend beam says is the same torque.

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by norm92de on 08/27/16 at 15:16:10

Cheapnewby,

Take hot bath, drink a stiff Scotch.

That should do it. No more torque issues! :)

Title: Re: Adjusted my valves.
Post by sauvage on 08/27/16 at 16:42:44

Think about it, if a handle weighed a pound it would exertina much less than a pound of torque because the weight is distributed over the length of the handle. Listen to the bat man.