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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power loss /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1472050216 Message started by MirageJack on 08/24/16 at 07:50:14 |
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Title: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power loss Post by MirageJack on 08/24/16 at 07:50:14 My name is Brent, from Madison WI, and I’ve owned my 2001 Savage since 2013. As the only bike I’ve ever loved - it's a manifestation of my liberty, and my most prized possession. Today I've got three things to address! #1 : Mechanical problems With 15500 miles, 11000 of them mine, she’s got a plethora of issues, but these are the ones that frighten me: 1. Horrible, awful, oil leak on the engine. 2. She runs really, really hot. 3. Anemic power, which has slowly gotten worse. 4. Very recently she’s started to misfire. These issues have been present since I’ve owned her, but recently gotten much more prominent. I swear, the oil is freely flowing out of my bike. My mechanical experience is limited - I know how to use tools, but I’m not familiar with motorcycle mechanics, thus I’m a terrible diagnostician. I’m guessing the above issues are correlated? At any rate, it’s time to do something about it. So far, I’ve read these threads: Is THIS the dreaded plug/cap leak?? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1460680231/1#1 Oil Leak on Head Nut Below Intake http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1461042895/2#2 Question about that oil leak under the exhaust http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1455464250/7#7 HOWTO: Head Plug Cap / Seal http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1177184297 Savage "Plug/Cap" Leak http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1099227295/15 Recommended oils for your savage http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 … I’m not sure which problem is MY problem, what can I do to diagnose this? I've attached a photo, and I'll provide any information or photos requested. #2 : Wisconsin Savage / Motorcycle enthusiasts Can anyone point me to some good folk here in Wisconsin? Especially Savage owners? Even better - someone who'd be willing to take me through some of these mechanical issues and teach me what's up? Maybe take some cash in return? #3. Can someone put me in touch with Verslagen1? I want to buy some of his parts. Thanks, BB |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by norm92de on 08/24/16 at 09:47:18 Verslsgen is a good place to start! You can easily find him on this site. :) |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by MirageJack on 08/24/16 at 11:42:44 okay! so I dove in! I'm reading off this thread... trying to fix that oil leak. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1461042895/2#2 Now - Check the photo : I cant get that nut on the right off, which if I read Gizzo's post correctly, could very well be the source of my leak. On this chart http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/CylinderHead01web.jpg I'm pretty certain the nut you see... and the now removed one on the left... are #23 Nut and #25 Washer.. although it only pictures one in the chart ... I see two... Any tips for loosing this nut? It is ON THERE! Is the remaining one pictured the one with the oil gallery? Also, what is dave talking about in that thread? There seems to be two different nuts in question. Thanks, Brent |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by Tocsik on 08/24/16 at 12:59:58 Pretty sure Dave is just talking about the nut up inside the cavity below the exhaust port. Same as mine here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1455464250/7#7 Not sure about loosening that other nut. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by ohiomoto on 08/24/16 at 14:09:42 STOP!!!! YOU'RE ABOUT TO F'UP BIG TIME! The nut on the left holds the head. Not the cover. You need further assistance at this point. (I would probably put it back, torque it to spec and hope I don't blow a head gasket.). The bolts you need to remove are the smaller ones. You use a 10mm wrench/socket on them. Go back and read the instructions again. 03273C2F292B042F2D254E0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by MirageJack on 08/24/16 at 14:47:22 Well, that's a little disheartening. I don't have a wrench that reads torque. In fact, I don't know what the heck to do at this point. I'm definitely not taking off the cover. So, ... ****! |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by batman on 08/24/16 at 18:15:21 So......why did you start! You really need someone who knows bikes to help you ,you should have cleaned all the oil of the motor and then restarted it to find the sorce of the leak ,your pic gives us no idea of how to advise you. You should do as Ohiomoto said ,if the only head bolt you took off is the one pictured you should be ok . but you willhave to take of the top cover to get to the leaking plug ,it 's above the head bolt in the area behind the exhaust . but under the cover. If you don't want to take off the cover you should buy lots of oil and wear plastic rain pants. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/24/16 at 21:24:33 I have Tools, and tons of them, but all the tools will do is make it possible wscrew stuff up, UNLESS I Also have Information. You Must Have a maintenance manual. There is a link to one, or buy a hard copy,but they are pricey. The mileage is pushing time to look at the cam chain. That usually wrecks the engine if it gets away. Unless you Know what you're doing, don't just start taking stuff apart. Know before you lay tools on it what you're taking apart. Know how many bolts/nuts hold it together. Since the bolts are various lengths on the head cover, draw an outline o n cardboard, put an X where each bolt goes, slice them, poke bolts in. No Puzzle to assemble. Same thing with the side covers. They have oil sealing washers in a few places. For new mechanics.. When removing something that is held on by a bunch of skinny little bolts that a 10mm socket fits and suddenly you need a Much Bigger Socket, you May have just stopped working on what you originally had in mind. Hang on, go slow, |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/24/16 at 22:16:29 Well... Here's some of my experience with torque wrenches. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1471280516 ;D I warn you: This is the stuff THEY don't want you to read. I could get in trouble for this.... It's dangerous stuff that newbies shouldn't read. WARNING! WARNING! Your bike might spontaneously explode after reading the information in this link. ;D But... Seriously... You probably need a torque wrench. My Dad completely destroyed an old flat-head Kohler twin (Simplicity garden tractor) one time. I believe we chalked it up at least partly to his not using a torque wrench as he didn't have a suitable one. He had just rebuilt it and was breaking it in and showing it off to the diesel mechanic neighbor. Neighbor remarked at how quiet it was... Petted it the whole time there. Coming back, he revved it up... and POW! went both rods and the camshaft too! :o Get a beam type if you want a cheap one and you're willing to learn how to use it. Beware of cheap or poorly-maintained clicker torque wrenches. I'm not going to tell you to put anti-seize on that head nut.... I'm just asking the "pros" around here if you should... ;) Using anti-seize when it's not called for can cause problems. But, yeah, there's a risk of blowing the head gasket. I wonder if you can get it torqued close enough to the others not to cause a problem... :-/ What about a cheap vs expensive wrench... :-/ You don't want to take any more loose and risk breaking the seal, though... Those head gaskets cost about 36 bucks a pop. And, yeah, what he said. ;) Make sure you go slow, have your wits, get plenty of sleep. One screw-up is all it takes to lead to a lot more time, money, effort, and frustration down the drain. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/24/16 at 22:36:23 Here's a link to the torque specs list. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534 Interestingly, it's the same list I used with my ill-fated sprocket bolts. ::) It looks like a reputable beam wrench is gonna cost about 20 bucks. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=torque+wrench+3%2F8&_sop=12&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xtorque+wrench+3%2F8+beam.TRS0&_nkw=torque+wrench+3%2F8+beam&_sacat=0 Of course... You can go a little cheaper... but... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Confused/confused-2.gif In case you can't already tell, I'm considered the village idiot around here, so my advice unqualified is... well... unqualified. ::) ;) But... Don't worry... Be happy... :D You got this. You may still be able to fix this before it runs into serious money. Waiting a few days for a 20 dollar wrench is not the end of the world. Just take a look at what I've been through. ::) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1468203484/0 That doesn't include the tire change fiasco. ;D http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1460257986/0 Just don't let your guard down... Remember Murphy's Law? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by Yoshi on 08/25/16 at 03:29:28 Go to Harbor freight and get a torque 3/8" torque wrench, they're cheap |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/25/16 at 05:37:15 Well... This morning... I look at your threads.... and its actually a little funny ;D that you start taking off the head in order to try to fix an oil leak. I think this is one time when trying to decipher the book made you screw up. Take a look at where that nut is... It's below the valve cover gasket. What does that tell you? What is it most likely to be holding down? --The head. That's like relying on a bad torque wrench to tell you when to stop tightening. It never clicks (clicker type), and you go till you wring it off. :o (well, strip it out anyway ;)) It's not necessarily because you're dumb... It's because you were relying on the torque wrench too much, and it let you down. You were relying on the chart to tell you what went where and not actually looking at the bike in front of you and figuring it out naturally. It's a trap. Mind your intuition. If something seems off or concerning... stop and think about it. Don't get impatient and keep plowing throw the mire. Now, there is some talk that you might not have a book... You were just using a visual you got online. With that in mind, you probably could have used a book.You would have had more information you could have used it to figure out where the headbolts were... possibly....??? --and avoided them.... :-? Personally, I lately have not managed to find my Clymer book... It's somewhere. :-/ And I'm in the process of putting the whole engine back in the bike!!! and the rear wheel/shocks/belt (chain conversion) drive too!!! I've almost got it stripped to the frame except for the front end and trim. :o I not only don't have the book handy, I have to find all my bolts. :o Crazy, ain't it? When you got SuzukiSavage.com, who needs a book!? ;D (Just kidding... you are supposed to have a book. Don't you know you gotta have a book!!!! :cough: must...please...mighty...elders :cough: ) The clymer book is sometimes wrong, though. ::) ;D Back to the other funny part... ;D Why were you removing stuff? You can sometimes fix leaks by simply tightening things. Were you trying to remove the valve covers in order to do the head plug repair? Valve cover gasket??? Just taking it apart to see what's going on??? :-? Again, notice where the gasket is in relation to those nuts. Also... notice that there was no oil around the nut you removed... very dry.... It probably ain't leakin' from there. I take it that you may have been looking for the leaky nut syndrome or something similar??? Look at this...http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1455464250/7#7 Now those nuts are confusing too. Before I knew better, I wondered if those things were head bolts or something. If you'll read down in the replies, I had a similar situation with mine. Drove it for a while with the nut completely gone. Just went to the dealership...They gave me a replacement... borrowed a wrench and put that little sucker on myself right there. Those are the nuts that leak. But... Don't feel bad... You still got this. ;) Just don't screw up anymore. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by gizzo on 08/25/16 at 06:00:32 Hi Brent. My memory's a little hazy and I'm at work so can't run out and look, but that head stud looks like the one with the oil gallery. See how the hole seems way oversize compared with the stud that goes through it. that space is where t the oil runs. Try annealing the copper washer, cleaning the area right up and reassemble it with a smear of rtv on the washer. If you don't have a torque wrench, just do it up pretty tight. Not crazy tight. A torque wrench is obviously better. If you want to take that other nut off and it's as tight as you imply, you might want to grab a single hex or flank drive socket before the nut rounds off. That nut really should undo without needing heat. Re the running hot and lacking power: try running it with the muffler off. Maybe a baffle has broken free and its blocking the exhaust. Simple things first ;) Good luck mate. Don't panic, you haven't messed anything up yet. And try a new spark plug, too. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by BSTON on 08/25/16 at 06:23:54 I'm in WI and have moderate skills and some tools but I'm south of Milwaukee so we're still not that close. I'd definitely start by putting things back together, cleaning the bike very well, and checking to see for sure where the leak is coming from. I highly recommend this stuff for cleaning a bike, especially when there is oil or grease involved. It works very well and leaves no residues like Simple Green does. S100 Total Cycle Cleaner https://www.amazon.com/S100-12001B-Total-Cleaner-Bottle/dp/B000WJX6IM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1472131337&sr=1-1&keywords=s100+cycle+cleaner |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by ohiomoto on 08/25/16 at 08:09:08 65415A494F4D62494B43280 wrote:
You don't have to give up. You'll never learn that way. Mechanical work starts out as 50% common sense, 50% having proper information. The more experience you get, the less of the other two you'll need. You just need a manual and it would help if you have a friend to help out. Google and YouTube are your fiends. Use them. You might not find a video of this repair on this motorcycle but you'll probably find one that is similar. More importantly, look at what you are doing and ask yourself the following questions: How did it go together? What is it's purpose? What's the worse thing I can do? Better yet, ask us first. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by MirageJack on 08/25/16 at 11:14:13 Hello gentlemen, Thank you all for the replies! To clarify why I took these nuts off: 100% guaranteed one of them severely leaks oil. The inside of the cover was totally swamped. If it wasn't for the dust to congeal with: standing puddles. I doubt this amount of oil could have migrated from the nearby front flanged nut. (Although that could be an accessory problem.) Thus, the plan was to RTV seal the copper washers. What could cause such a leak with these nuts? Has something deeper in my engine gone to hell? Have I blown seals, o-rings, or gaskets within? At any rate, before knowing any better, I took both nuts off. Simultaneously. I'm guessing this severely heightens that risk of corrupting the seal and blowing the head gasket. If the plan is to simply reassemble the bike as-is, even with said torque wrench, is it likely I'll face trouble? If so, would it be a better plan for me to remove the engine from my frame and invest in a local mechanic to go through and redo all my seals, valves, and essentially renovate? What would be a good price for this service? Is it even worth it? Is there anything else I should do while he's in there? Cams? Pistons? Is there a middle path? I don't want to remove my engine! |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by gizzo on 08/25/16 at 11:39:38 I'm guessing the copper washers just work harden and start leaking because of all the expansion and cooling cycles they're exposed to and the different expansion rates of the alloy head , copper washer and steel nut. Or something. Anyway the head gasket should be fine if you haven't run the engine with the nuts off. If you have, you'll know if the gasket is leaking, believe it. I wouldn't be taking the engine for major therapy because of a leak. You'll be fine. Just take these guys advice, ask questions , take your time. First, go to YouTube and learn how to anneal your copper washers, get the nuts back on with the rtv and see what happens. My 2c etc. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/25/16 at 17:33:39 Don't just Fix the whole thing Because it has a localized problem. Would you disassemble the car and rebuild it over a radiator leak? The engines are known to run for a very long time without big maintenance. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by MirageJack on 08/26/16 at 12:19:46 Okay! So I've purchased a Dial torque wrench. Here's the plan... 1. Anneal copper washers with propane torch 2. Clean copper washers 3. Apply Permatex Ultra-Grey, just a touch, to both sides of washer. 4. Set permatex'd washer onto seat 5. Apply extremely limited amount of 15w40 to threads and nut. 6. Reattach nut. (DO I NEED TO WAIT FOR PERMATEX BEFORE TORQUING ??) 7. Tighten to spec. (24lbs?) 8. Wait 30m 9. re-tighten to spec. (24lbs?) 10. Wait 1-2h 11. re-tighten to spec. (24lbs?) 12. Wait 24h 13. re-tighten to spec. (24lbs?) Any other suggestions? Something I'm doing wrong here? Something I'm missing? |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by gizzo on 08/26/16 at 15:27:38 I don't know that I'd oil the threads, in case it contaminates the permatex. what do the rest of you think? I'm happy to be corrected. I'd also just do the nut up and call it good. Not retorque it later. That might break the seal made by the permatex and undo your good work. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/26/16 at 17:23:15 Don't go to full torque on the first pass. |
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Title: Re: Restore my Liberty! Oil+Overheating+Power los Post by pg on 08/26/16 at 18:13:04 1733283B3D3F103B39315A0 wrote:
Just because you have a tw doesn't mean you apply a great deal of torque your first go. Use it more like a normal wrench and when it starts snugging up, do 1/8 or 1/4 turns. Better yet, practice once or twice on something obsolete as well. After your done turn it back to the zero settings so it has a better chance of being calibrated correctly. Best regards, |
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