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Message started by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 06:26:07

Title: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 06:26:07

Hi there. As the title says, my bike won't start. It's an 87. I push the start button and I hear the decomp, starter solenoid and the starter spins. It only spins a couple times and then click click click. I checked voltage on battery and it was 12.7v. I hooked the battery up to my Land Rover and the same condition. Voltage to the starter is 12.4v. I pulled the plug and the starter will spin the engine. I can push it and let out the clutch and it will start and run. I have a brand new starter and starter solenoid (read that as I put in yesterday). I looked at the starter gear when I had the starter off and they looked just fine.

Any thoughts on a course of action? I don't want to throw parts at it.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 07:31:41

Electrons must be able to flow from the battery, through the starter and back. Sounds like dirty connections to me. Hit the starter for a few seconds and feel around the solenoid, starter, ground on case, if you can feel a warm spot, check the connections. Resistance to current flow creates heat.
Since you have bypassed everything else by hooking up cables, check out the big ground connection on the side case, kinda up behind your right ankle.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 07:38:40

Thanks for the quick response. I will double check when I return home in a little while and report back.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 08:31:07

Ground is tight and not corroded. I tested continuity with multimeter and checks out ok. It does feel warm to touch after I crank on it several times.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 10:14:20

Ohms at zero amps is one thing... If it's warm, it's resistive.
Take it apart, clean it up. Might not be the problem, but it's easy and if it's getting warm, it's not exactly a good connection.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 10:26:15

Thank you so much for your help so far.I went ahead and cleaned it and ran another ground wire. Still the same condition. I got my wife to hold the multimeter to the battery while I press the button. The meter drops from 12.45v to around 6v. Is that normal? I took my battery to O'Reilly's yesterday and they said it was fine. Even when hooked to my truck it show's the voltage drop. This has been a fun one the past couple days :P

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 11:17:25

No, sir, that is not at All normal. Did you happen to run the starter motor for more than just a few seconds?
It's not supposed to suck so much current flow as to drop the battery voltage so much. I'm thinking it's the starter motor.

I'm ready for anyone else to throw this guy a bone..
I'm pretty sure I'm tracking right, but if anyone has a clue..
I'm ready..

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 11:30:52

I will take any bone that anyone throws!

Again thank you so much for your time. The starter motor wont run for more than a few seconds until it starts clicking. It is a brand new starter as the previous starter was acting similarly and then wouldn't spin at all. I replaced it literally yesterday. I touched the post on the starter with the jumper cables and it has the same condition through the switch.

All the while it is still hooked up to my Land Rover. When I left earlier today I plugged it to my battery charger.

Not sure what else to look for at this point.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 11:42:03

Don't overcharge the battery.

Why did you replace the starter?
Did you have it tested?

Details about what you have done matter.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 11:48:23

The starter had the same symptoms as I am having now and then wouldn't make any noise at all. I tried to touch the jumper to it and still no spin or noise. I took it apart and the brushes were in pieces and had locked it up. It was definitely toast. At the same time that I replaced the starter I changed the solenoid.

I will pull the starter out and check it again.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 12:12:34

Just pulled the new starter and it is operating as usual when I have it hooked up to 12v source. I double checked the gear that you can see when you pull the starter. No teeth missing and it is able to spin CCW as you are looking at it. I put a screwdriver to it CW and it is hard to turn but it will turn with pressure.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 12:36:01

I'd be inclined to get the starter tested.

I wonder Why did the brushes break.
Did you run it hard?
Starters don't like extended use.
Magnets tend to break, brushes, never seen that.

You can connect straight to the starter motor and ground and SEE what it does.
Better be in neutral.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 12:36:19

I think I am going to pull the battery again and take it to Auto Zone and let them check it. I'm not sure if it really is good like the guy at O'Reilly's said. He told me he checked it at 220CA and it was great. I do not understand how it can drop half voltage when I press the button and still be able to spin enough to start it.

I wanted to double check I am not going more nuts than normal. I bump started it and it started up fine. Makes me believe that the engine is not preventing the starter from spinning.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 12:38:57

Sorry I misspoke. It was the magnet rather than brushes.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 12:49:36

Get the starter tested

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/18/16 at 12:55:49

Will do. I'll take it tonight or first thing in the morning and have it checked out.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/19/16 at 07:14:23

I pulled the starter and took it to Auto zone to have them test it. They said they couldn't test it. I went to O'Reilly's to have them test it. They said they couldn't test it either. I bench tested it myself and it spins very fast and operates like it should with 12v applied.

The starter solenoid I replaced the original with is a

Ricks Motorsport Electric Solenoid Switch 65-303 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00AC8DLUQ/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/16 at 07:27:31

Yea, don't connect the starter hot wire and hit the start button.
See what happens to the battery voltage.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Dave on 08/19/16 at 07:30:32

OK....this thread has really got me confused. If you hit the starter button, and the starter motor spins the engine over for a while.....why are you removing the starter and looking for trouble?

If the engine turns over for a bit - but doesn't start, then eventually the stater stops and the solenoid goes "click,click,click" it is an indication you have run the battery down and it no longer has enough power to run the starter an longer.

Since the bike can start if you push start it, it appears the ignition and carb are working OK. I suspect your battery just doesn't have enough power to run the starter and keep the voltage high enough to run the ignition system and make a spark while the starter motor is running.

Have you checked the battery voltage while the starter motor is running? Have you tried using a car battery to jump the bike (car not running) and see if it will start with more battery power?

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/16 at 08:04:31

Re: Another won't start thread
Reply #18 - Today at 15:30:32 Alert Board Moderator about this Post! Quote OK....this thread has really got me confused. If you hit the starter button, and the starter motor spins the engine over for a while.....why are you removing the starter and looking for trouble?

If the engine turns over for a bit - but doesn't start, then eventually the stater stops and the solenoid goes "click,click,click" it is an indication you have run the battery down and it no longer has enough power to run the starter an longer.

Since the bike can start if you push start it, it appears the ignition and carb are working OK. I suspect your battery just doesn't have enough power to run the starter and keep the voltage high enough to run the ignition system and make a spark while the starter motor is running.

Have you checked the battery voltage while the starter motor is running?

He reported a very low voltage.
I have asked twice if he is running the starter more than a few seconds. I don't see the answer, but he replaced the original starter due to broken magnets.

He had the battery tested. 220cca he reported.

An Exact description of the process is in order, down to an approximate number of seconds before the battery drops below 12 volts.
I'm Thinking it's pretty much immediate based on what I am getting.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/19/16 at 09:57:01

Order of steps

1. Hook fully charged battery up with jumper cables to my truck
2. Turn on switch
3. Reading 12.4v with meter on battery
4. Reading 12.4v at solenoid
5. Hit start button
6. Hear decomp click
7. Hear solenoid click
8. Starter slowly turns engine over gwhrr gwhrr gwhrr
9. Click click click
10. Check battery voltage. Reads 12.4v
11. Hit start button
12. Hear decomp click
13. Hear solenoid click
14. Starter slowly turns engine over gwhrr gwhrr gwhrr
15. Click click click
16. Checking voltage on starter post during button depress says 6v. Before button press reads 12.4v

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Dave on 08/19/16 at 10:10:01

We need to know what the battery voltage is "while" the starter motor is turning the engine over.

(Yep....it takes about 4 hands to be able to do that while using the starter button).

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/16 at 10:32:53

Dave, this seems to be what you're asking...
464F5E5E574C4F404A475A2E0 wrote:

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/16 at 10:33:56

Next question... have you done any work on the engine lately? (other than yank the starter out)

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/19/16 at 10:38:24

I pulled the tank off to make sure the decomp was adjusted properly. Other than that, I haven't done any work to it.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/16 at 10:43:57

Leave the starter hot wire off.
See what happens to the battery voltage.
Probably nothing but it might be telling.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Dave on 08/19/16 at 10:45:38

464F5E5E574C4F404A475A2E0 wrote:

The meter drops from 12.45v to around 6v. Is that normal? :P

That doesn't sound normal to me.....I will check my bike(s) tonight and see what happens.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/16 at 10:45:47

464F5E5E574C4F404A475A2E0 wrote:

I got my wife to hold the multimeter to the battery while I press the button. The meter drops from 12.45v to around 6v.

This would say it's a bad battery.
check the resistance on the starter.
if you have a short, it will drop the volts.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/16 at 10:50:40

Battery tests good
Nobody was set up to test the starter
But an unloaded bench test Seems normal
And
It's new

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by batman on 08/19/16 at 14:00:33

He said he adjusted the decomp,it may not be opening the exhaust valves at all,and the starter working overtime?he's jumping it with a truck battery and it's turning the motor over slowly?If the starter is stoping after only three revs I'd be checking to see if the exhaust valves are opening at all.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/16 at 14:28:15

20293838312A29262C213C480 wrote:

I pulled the tank off to make sure the decomp was adjusted properly. Other than that, I haven't done any work to it.

Did you mess with it?

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by verslagen1 on 08/19/16 at 15:07:17

2A293C2529267C70480 wrote:

If the starter has gone 3 revs (since you can only hear it huff once in 2 revs, this is actually 6 revs) the decomp adjustment is fine.

If the starter stalls on the 1st rev, then you got a problem.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Savageman on 08/19/16 at 22:32:19

Auto Zoned doesn't know what the hell they are talking about! If the battery drops to 6 volts then THE BATTERY IS SHOT!!!

It won't start with 6 volts no way no how.

I think you are performing brain surgery on a hangnail!

REPLACE THE BATTERY!!! ::)

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/16 at 00:08:22

Depends on the LOAD. Battery Could be good, but won't be for long.
The car battery doesn't work, either.
Test voltage with start button pushed, without the starter wire connected.

DO THAT. By b
I don't CARE if nobody else sees why.

Don't let it short out.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/20/16 at 06:02:04

Sorry I have been busy the past couple days. I'm an audio engineer and am out of town with a band until tomorrow. I will definitely test without the starter connected. Hopefully I will be able to record a video and show you guys what it sounds like. That may be very helpfull for you guys to hear it. Thank you all for your help in this.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/16 at 06:04:33

It's not gonna be making much racket without the starter motor hookup.

That would be interesting to hear,,

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by sauvage on 08/20/16 at 06:33:42

Following on from what Dave suggested earlier, have you tried removing the spark plug and grounding it to the engine while trying to start the bike to see if there is enough juice to provide a spark while turning the starer motor?

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/16 at 06:55:33

Removing the plug is not an accurate test.
Without the load of compression the electronics don't see the voltage drop, which we have seen is significant.
And, he can bump start it, so, it does spark. But not at six volts.
Let's find out if there is a parallel load somewhere that's dropping the battery voltage. I doubt it but it's gotta be checked.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/20/16 at 12:16:54

I have tested with the plug removed. There is a spark when I ground the plug. I may be paranoid but it may be a weak spark.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Savageman on 08/20/16 at 15:28:21

You can't ignore the 6 volt issue. You may have bad battery cables. The crimps are loose? If there's resistance at all then all the current will dissipate there and not go to the starter motor. Basic troubleshooting should get to the root. You can't ignore 50 years of experience and expertise. You get all kinds of things to try but did you check the most basic things first? 8-)

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/20/16 at 16:07:32

I understand what you are saying. I can touch the post on the starter with jumper cables from my truck and it still does the same thing.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Savageman on 08/20/16 at 16:29:29

You are saying the starter motor makes a clicking noise after a few revs? Pull it apart and check the field magnets for cracking or pulverized. Check the armature for burned coils and the brushes making good contact. If you are using good jumper cables and still have the same issue then the starter motor is cooked or the internal starter gear is jamming (cracked case)? Try running the starter motor out of the engine for a few seconds. How does it sound?

You say a new starter as in different or brand new? Get another one if covered by warranty. I've purchased a brand new starter off Ebay for $89. ish and they work great. 8-)

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/16 at 16:31:51

Until you either pull the starter cable and hit the button and check the battery
Or
Pull the cable and, somehow, without wrecking the threads, hook the jumpers up straight to the starter motor and a close ground, you won't know if there is a parallel load.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/21/16 at 13:29:41

Ok I am home today and finally got to test some more.

My starter is a brand new aftermarket starter. It has never been used and is not a reman product.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B013SH0OXY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I connected my battery to my truck before I started any tests.

I pulled the hot from the starter and checked the voltage when I press the button. The reading is 12v without it connected to the starter.

I went ahead while I had the cable off the starter and tried it straight from my truck battery. I connected the ground jumper cable to the bolt on the frame and then touched the hot jumper cable straight to the post on the starter. Same condition as before.

I reconnected the starter cable and I reconnected the jumpers from my truck back to the battery. I took a video of the meter as it was metering the post on the starter so you could see and hear what it is doing. This time the voltage was only at about 3-4v.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0IubaO6b84EaC1HYk9Zd3BwcWM

Any other thoughts?

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/21/16 at 13:34:16

. I connected the ground jumper cable to the bolt on the frame and then touched the hot jumper cable straight to the post on the starter. Same condition as before

Your starter, new, is bad.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by Happybandit on 08/21/16 at 13:37:44

I will email them and return it tomorrow and hopefully get a new one it a couple days. I'll check back when I receive it and let you all know how it goes. Thank you all for your help and patience with this, especially you Justin-o-guy2. I really appreciate it.

Title: Re: Another won't start thread
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/21/16 at 14:08:35

Hopefully you get a good one next.