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Message started by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 10:01:56

Title: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anything!
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 10:01:56

Was torquing my rear sprocket today, and I was torquing them to 45 ft. lbs. which is within specs.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534

I had two torque wrenches, an old fashioned needle type and a clicker type. I was using the clicker type last when one of the nuts turned more than expected. No clicky, clicky....Turned some more, still no clicky, clicky. I was concerned. Eventually, I went ahead and removed it. What did I find? Smashed threads. It had been overtorqued. The bolts were lubricated. What went wrong? I'm going to back the rest off to no more than 40 and, if I can find them. chase the threads, put it back on, torque it gently below spec., and buy another nut and bolt for later install after I get it on the road. In the process of removing it, I screwed up and sheared a bit of the aluminum ridge that holds the bolt. It ought to be okay... :-/

And, I thought I would get it running soon. :( Maybe I will??? Can I get by with one bolt out or undertorqued?

Maybe I should think twice before torquing that front pulley nut to 100 ft lbs, lest I ruin the whole engine!

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/15/16 at 10:33:26

If you are using a 150 ft/lb torque wrench, they don't work very well at lower torque settings....sometimes it is nearly impossible to hear/feel the click (especially if they are not a high quality wrench).

If you have a cheap wrench.....use the dial one for the lower torque values.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 10:35:12

I think I found out what is wrong. Can you see it? I may order all new bolts and nuts. I'm thinking of sourcing them from a fastener company instead of oem. Okay, ain't it?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 10:35:40

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 10:36:26

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by BSTON on 08/15/16 at 10:38:35

1A212C3B2A263D3B2028253A490 wrote:

If you have a cheap wrench....

I think that's pretty much guaranteed.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 10:53:00

18232E3928243F39222A27384B0 wrote:

Thanks for the advice. Could it be that I just barely ran out of threads, and stripped it? Shouldn't it have still torqued, or not? That's what the picture shows. Did the other chain conversions use flat washers?

I'm thinking about ordering some more bolts. It'll probably be $12+ for OEM bolts, not including nuts. I found that my local fastener place can't get square heads in metric. ::) Should I do that, assuming that I may have weakened the other bolts as well? Could I repair the stripped one with tap and die and make do? :-? Is it too dangerous?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 11:04:13

It's a Craftsman Microtork 150 ft lb. He bought it at least 10-15 yrs ago when I was a kid. I remember we used it to overhaul a tractor engine long ago (probably when it was new or close to it), and that old tractor ran very well.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/15/16 at 11:18:42

Mine is a Craftsman 150 ft/lbs, and I have trouble with anything less than 60 ft/lbs.....it just won't click reliably at lower settings.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 11:46:45

Dad's had it for awhile. He has another one that might be rated for 200. He has always pooh-poohed his dial wrenches in favor of the clickers. He just didn't seem to like 'em or want to use 'em. Now I know better. ;)

So, I'll be better off with the other one you say? It's 150 lbs too, but I take it that it is simply more reliable at lower torques? It looks like it works by simple leverage. I'm guessing the tempered needle is attached somehow to the handle and the head pushes near its base, flexing it very slightly at its base, but alot at the tip. Am I correct? I can say that it seems that one is more in tune with things with this old-fashioned style piece than the clicker. You can tell what you're doing, just as long as your in position to read the dial. The clicker is confusing... trickery... You expect it to break away (the click is not always audible, but you feel it) at the torque you want, but when it doesn't, bad things happen because you're relying on it to click rather than paying attention to your own perception of what's going on. The clicker dulls the senses a bit. Agreed?

The clickers are good for fast work because the ratchet, and you don't have to go slow and watch the dial, right? Keep talking... This torque wrench discussion is interesting. The old fashioned beats the high-tech?

I'm figuring that if I used a clicker, I would have been better off with a 3/8 inch drive with high inch pound rating, yes? I had to use an adapter to go to 3/8 inch drive anyway. It seems that 3/8 torque wrench would naturally fit the torque range, right? I only had a 1/4 inch drive that ran up to 200 inch pounds, and then the 1/2 inch ones.

Do you think that 1/4 incher will work okay for the clutch cover bolts? I can click it with my bare hands at the lower settings. Its a taiwan no-namer job. Don't want to ruin those bolts either....

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 11:55:08

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by ohiomoto on 08/15/16 at 12:20:29

What did you lubricate the threads with?

I never lubricate smaller nuts and bolts with anything more than a drop of Locktite. Makes it too easy to over-torque and damage threads. Dry threads produce more accurate readings unless the specs call for lubrication. When threads are lubricated, it reduces the amount of torque required to achieve the desired amount to "stretch" on the bolt. So if you torque lubricated bolts to spec, you are almost always over-torquing them.

Read these:

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/07/25/ask-kevin-if-i-lubricate-threads-or-use-a-threadlocker-should-i-reduce-the-tightening-torque

4C474A4E5F414A584D1D1B2F0 wrote:

Was torquing my rear sprocket today...No clicky, clicky....Turned some more, still no clicky, clicky... It had been overtorqued. The bolts were lubricated. What went wrong?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by ohiomoto on 08/15/16 at 12:26:00

Also, when doing conversions or making modifications, make sure you never "bottom out" the bolt. That's a good way to strip things out.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by ohiomoto on 08/15/16 at 12:32:39

454E434756484351441412260 wrote:

...Could it be that I just barely ran out of threads, and stripped it?

Looks like you might have. I'd replace all of those fasteners.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/15/16 at 12:37:37

Remember cross threading is better than loctite !
LMFAO

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by SavageMan99 on 08/15/16 at 12:59:44

Had one fail doing the mains in my diesel. Way over turned, and stretched, the smaller, outer cap bolts. Click wrenches be darned.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by gizzo on 08/15/16 at 14:31:37

Ill just add that click torque wrenches are supposed to be stored with the torque value set to zero, the head should be rocked back and forth a few times before use to distribute the lubricant through the gears and torque wrenches should be calibrated now and again. Not that anyone does it. i Prefer the push button kind myself. But they are quite expensive.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/15/16 at 16:19:28

Newb, are you qualified to be doing this kind of work on your bike? It just seems everything you touch breaks. Maybe you need to slow down.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/15/16 at 19:12:48

What little I know:
I don't know how many torque wrenches I have. Somewhere between a dozen or two. American, German, Asian, etc.
I've had pretty good luck with all of them. None were low end garbage.
Spent anywhere from $80-$400 on them.
Taught motorcycle maintenance for 36 years. Saw lots of busted fasteners.
So...
A torque wrench is a measuring device. Most meters are most accurate in the top 90% of their range.
Think of an analogue volt meter. Imagine you have one that goes 0-1000 Volts. You wouldn't think of using it to read one volt, right? Needle would barely be off the peg.
Likewise with torque wrenches. You'll need two-one for the little stuff, one for the bigger stuff. Maybe Inch pounds for the small stuff, foot pounds for the bigger. Have some overlap so you aren't using the bottom range of the bigger wrench.
You have a free way to check the calibration of your click type torque wrench. Nice, because when I send my Snap On ones in for calibration they charge $75 to do that.
Take the bend beam torque wrench, find an 8 or 12 point socket that fits on it and also fits the male end of the click wrench. Set the click wrench for a number more than 10% of it's lowest reading. Turn the wrenches against each other and watch the bend beam for when the click wrench goes 'click'.
Maybe check two readings.
Done.
As for the 45 ft/lb pooching the sprocket studs, welcome to the club. After way too many students with Suzukis buggering the sprocket studs of various models of Suzi-Qs, I finally told them to use blue Loctite and only go to 35 ft/lbs.
The comment earlier about lubing the threads is valid. I usually use nothing more slippery than WD-40 on threads, unless they see a ton of heat or pressure, then I use Anti-Sieze. Engine oil will completely fool your torque wrench as it makes the fasteners too easy to turn.
This is why some companies (HD, BMW) use torque angle specs. Basically you take the slack out of the fastener, then you turn the wrench a specified number of degrees. Much more accurate.
What little I know I gladly share.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/15/16 at 19:19:51

There's a tool to measure the torque angle but no one's ever heard of it and good luck finding one at the local hardware store. "Best guess" with a protractor works ok.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/15/16 at 19:26:10

Try this too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFDUsUEQrL0

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/15/16 at 19:28:48

No one has ever heard of it? I have two of them. Not very exotic anymore.
Here is one for under $20

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OTC-TORQUE-ANGLE-GAUGE-1-2-DRIVE-4554-/291560628568?hash=item43e25e2158:g:NPsAAOSw9N1Vo-xZ&item=291560628568&vxp=mtr

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/15/16 at 19:34:46

I have one in ft lb & one in in lb trust them more than the click type !
Nothing to malfunction !!!!!

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/15/16 at 19:34:51

I meant in general. The general public doesn't know a ball peen hammer from a Phillips screwdriver.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/15/16 at 19:39:48

Kris,
They've done studies, and very few people are born knowing everything. One of reasons folks read this kind of page on this kind of forum-to learn.
So, those of us who have a clue try to pass things on to those who don't but would like to.
-Armen

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/15/16 at 19:48:01

Agreed, but some people should know when to say when.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by ohiomoto on 08/15/16 at 20:34:20

Most of us learn from our mistakes. Some of us learn from other's mistakes too. :)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by HovisPresley on 08/15/16 at 21:26:22

+1 about having a torque wrench that is designed to be within the range that you are likely to use.
The majority of them that you would see in discount stores are designed for cars, etc, or at least something more heavy duty than your average prehistoric Jap cruiser.

Nice explanation of torque wrenches, Armen, btw :)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/15/16 at 21:41:02

Thanks everyone. Armen, you've got some interesting stuff there. I wish I had known this all before I screwed it all up. I'll look at your links. I'm getting ready to call it a night. It may have been that I ran out of threads. The omission of washers was an unfortunate oversight. Maybe running out of threads causes the bolt to strip unusually easily? However, from what Armen said, it might have happened anyway. The other fasteners seem okay. I took them out. I wonder whether I should buy one bolt, all bolts, or no bolts.

You know... with this kind of crap, I wonder if I'd have been better off tightening them by feel and not even bothering with the torque wrench. ::) You use a torque wrench to get it right and do the opposite... You don't stop where it feels okay. You may not even pay much attention. You go for the number. And the number is a trap.

It has crossed my mind to just buy another used hub and sprocket. Then I can get all the bolts, an extra hub, and another sprocket to play with.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by HovisPresley on 08/15/16 at 22:27:57

22292420312F2436237375410 wrote:

You know... with this kind of crap, I wonder if I'd have been better off tightening them by feel and not even bothering with the torque wrench. ::) You use a torque wrench to get it right and do the opposite... You don't stop where it feels okay. You may not even pay much attention. You go for the number. And the number is a trap.

...........................

Mechanical sympathy (in the traditional sense of the phrase) can be a blessing that you, Cheap, remind us of on a regular basis.
I can only speak for myself, but I always look forward to your posts :)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by gizzo on 08/16/16 at 01:42:49

Hovis, that's a really nice thing to say. Have some good Karma.

I had to buy a bicycle torque wrench recently, for the fasteners on my Royal Enfield, which strip and snap at a bee's d!ck over finger tight. Even the sump plug.

When I was an apprentice, one of my tradesmen would say "do it up til it strips, then back it off half a turn"
He also said "ïf it doesn't move, force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway. "

Only in fun, but it became known as Cliff's Law :D.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/16/16 at 02:52:09

The prob with buying a used hub is that it may also have been over-torqued. Buy new bolts and nuts and start over.
I may have a set of used bolts and nuts in my stash (doing an oddball conversion on mine). I'll look.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/16/16 at 04:14:06

Nothing wrong with the torque wrench you just need a set of rubber sockets.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/16/16 at 04:19:15

I might have some extra hub bolts/nuts....I will look around tonight and see what I have.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/16/16 at 04:55:54

I have a good used set of nuts and bolts if you want them. Send me your address.
Arme

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/16/16 at 15:24:25

This is why I have an extra set of bolts. Putting Heli-Coils in the holes and using bolts only.
Honestly, this is not a great idea from an engineering point of view :P
-Armen

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 15:29:19

I PM'ed Armen.

I also just ordered some Stainless M10x20 washers. I ordered a bag of 50. I wonder if I shouldn't have ordered the plain zinc... would have been cheaper. :-/ Would I have been happy with plain zinc??? Plain zinc is kinda ugly... and it's not quite as good corrosion-wise. :-/ Who knows?

A fellow needs to figure out the least he can get away with that accomplishes his goals, decide whether its reliable enough, and is close enough to the specs and quality he wants, and do that. How many people have spend crazy amounts of money on things which make no difference? How often do people buy overpriced, overbuilt stuff because of the blind assumption that anything less will not make them happy?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 15:52:54

1A29363E355B0 wrote:

This is why I have an extra set of bolts. Putting Heli-Coils in the holes and using bolts only.
Honestly, this is not a great idea from an engineering point of view :P
-Armen

Why? Because the threads are more likely to strip somehow, or because they're not replaceable like nuts are?

I did find some square nuts (work it backwards), but they probably would need grinding. Who's to say they'll be strong enough, either?https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0161912?r=~|categoryl1:%22600000%20Fasteners%22|~%20~|categoryl2:%22600072%20Nuts%22|~%20~|categoryl3:%22600086%20Square%20Nuts%22|~%20~|sattr01:^Metric$|~

Suzuki ought to have used more of a "T-bolt" instead of square head. Better seating against the hub. Something a little more like this maybe.... in proper size, with a little longer neck? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cur-95041?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-currie-enterprises&gclid=Cj0KEQjw88q9BRDB5qLcwLXr7_sBEiQAZsGjaxKLRw3KTqdB-izaBJhr9hOiftLfYVe2ulqdWGIL8vUaAoJF8P8HAQ

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 16:50:14

20130C040F610 wrote:

This is why I have an extra set of bolts. Putting Heli-Coils in the holes and using bolts only.
Honestly, this is not a great idea from an engineering point of view :P
-Armen

What??? What's with all the extra holes???

I understand it's aluminum, right? That might make it weaker... But then, you've got quite a bit of thread space with the original holes. :-?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/16/16 at 17:37:36

Good questions.
If you look at the original bolts, you'll see that the loaded area at the shear point between the hub and the sprocket is smooth. The threads start outside the hub. This gives a strong, smooth, stress free surface to the load.
By running bolts through the sprocket into the hub like I'm doing, the mating surfaces are loading against the threads, which provide a nice place for a break to start.
My rationalization is twofold-the bike is pretty dickless and there are 6 bolts holding it together. And I check the bolts often.
Part of the goal is to have a cool looking bike :)

On the subject of washers, well..
In general stainless fastener are not as strong as as graded steel ones.
Having said that, one has to consider what the hardware is you are replacing. On metric hardware you'll see hardness ratings like 8.8, 10.9, and 12.9 for the harder grades. On a small, price point bike like Savage, the Japanese use harness ratings like 'SMFDP' and 'DCODP' which stand for 'Soft Moist Fresh Dog Poop' and 'Dry Crusty Old Dog Poop'.
;D
In other words, the stainless stuff is usually at least as strong as the OEM stuff.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 18:12:43

Dry, crusty, old dog poop, huh? ;D

I'm guessing that some of those holes are for looks and to save weight?

For goodness sakes, why can't manufacturers make good metal? is it that hard to do? Seems to me like making a new sand mold and then breaking it every time for casting is some trouble. Can't they just take a big press and smash out parts in one hard lick?

The reasons factories choose one method over another... an interesting topic.

Maybe it's the equipment... not the difficulty. Perhaps casting is a poor man's method??? Save the big guns for the most important, most expensive stuff?

Yeah, I think a shoulder down most of the way is a good idea too. You put a different spin on the idea though.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/16/16 at 18:19:17

1B28373F345A0 wrote:

On a small, price point bike like Savage, the Japanese use harness ratings like 'SMFDP' and 'DCODP' which stand for 'Soft Moist Fresh Dog Poop' and 'Dry Crusty Old Dog Poop'.

You had me going for all that for a second. ;D

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 18:37:11

Cast iron does have it's advantages. I seem to recall that cast iron gears are quieter and have lower friction than steel gears. :-?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 18:53:22

http://www.petersonsteel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Reducing-Gear-Noise.pdf

Take a look at this... Pretty cool, huh?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 19:19:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLrAce8lHE

Nice... I bet our bike has cast pistions. :-? Wouldn't forged pistons very suitable in a motorcycle, especially one like ours?

Yeah... this thread is drifting a bit, but it's still on topic (strength of materials). I'm going to have to shut up... If I keep going, somebody's pro'ly gonna stick this in the cafe. ;D

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/16/16 at 19:37:12

Get QUALITY, not CHEAP, fasteners.
Use a wrench that is about mid range at the torque you want.
Removing all the friction between the nut and bolt and possibly even getting lubrication between nut and landing seriously diminishes the rotational forces required to achieve the clamping force. Don't Do that unless the Maintenance Manual CALLS for it.

What went wrong?

You decided to do something without very specifically explaining exactly what you were going to do and asking if you were about to screw up.

Grade 8 bolts. Sufficient threads to engage the entire nut. Really. It matters. In fact, if you DON'T go to the hardware store, but go to the Threaded Connector warehouse, nearly every city, not one horse town, but city, has one. Longview has two, the counter guys will tell you what grade bolt to get. A sprocket Sees shear forces, but needs sufficient tensile strength to accept the torque to protect it From all of the shear forces.
Make sure the bolts fill the holes
Or, take the slack out of it by rotating the sprocket against the bolts as if the chain was accelerating it.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/16/16 at 21:28:12

213E383F22251424142C3E32794B0 wrote:

Get QUALITY, not CHEAP, fasteners. Notice I was talking about washers...
Use a wrench that is about mid range at the torque you want. I thought the other guys emphasized near max... but...okay...mid-range is enough (http://Okay...)
Removing all the friction between the nut and bolt and possibly even getting lubrication between nut and landing seriously diminishes the rotational forces required to achieve the clamping force. Don't Do that unless the Maintenance Manual CALLS for it.B..but...I like to grease everything! :D

What went wrong? Why I'd sure like to know! :D

You decided to do something without very specifically explaining exactly what you were going to do and asking if you were about to screw up. Hmm...maybe partly true... but take a look at this: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1470415387/90#90 Take a good long look. Do one of your good, long investigations. Pretend that thread is Hillary's emails. ;D Tell me what you see.

Grade 8 bolts. Sufficient threads to engage the entire nut. Really. It matters. In fact, if you DON'T go to the hardware store, but go to the Threaded Connector warehouse, nearly every city, not one horse town, but city, has one. Longview has two, the counter guys will tell you what grade bolt to get. A sprocket Sees shear forces, but needs sufficient tensile strength to accept the torque to protect it From all of the shear forces.
Make sure the bolts fill the holes
Or, take the slack out of it by rotating the sprocket against the bolts as if the chain was accelerating it.

You're either telling me to make do with standard grade 8 hex bolts, or... well...you missed something. Keep reading... You'll figure it out.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/16/16 at 22:11:15

I don't need to figure it out. I ask before I do anything I'm not sure about. I'm not wasting my time reading your crap. You want to spit on what I say? Kiss off and screw you.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/17/16 at 02:12:33

Justin,
Take a breath. Reread the thread. Adjust your medication.
Firstly, grade 8 is a standard rating, not a metric one, so he isn't going to find grade 8 bolts that fit that hub.
The fasteners in question are 10 mm. Closest to 10mm is 3/8, which is smaller, so the fit would be loose. Assuming he could find those oddball sprocket bolts in standard.
As I noted, i've seen a lot of Suzi-Q sprocket bolts shear at 45 ft/lbs. I use 35 and blue Loctite.
The reason I like the guy is that he had a problem, asked reasonable questions, and seems to want to learn and actually listen. Pretty rare these days.
-Armen

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/17/16 at 04:30:58

73787571607E7567722224100 wrote:

Suzuki ought to have used more of a "T-bolt" instead of square head. Better seating against the hub. Something a little more like this maybe.... in proper size, with a little longer neck? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cur-95041?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-currie-enterprises&gclid=Cj0KEQjw88q9BRDB5qLcwLXr7_sBEiQAZsGjaxKLRw3KTqdB-izaBJhr9hOiftLfYVe2ulqdWGIL8vUaAoJF8P8HAQ

The square head bolts work just fine, there is no problem with the square head seating in the hub, and the square end of the bolt has nothing to do with how you screwed up (stripped) the threads on your bolt/nut.

4C474A4E5F414A584D1D1B2F0 wrote:

For goodness sakes, why can't manufacturers make good metal? is it that hard to do?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/17/16 at 06:49:32

He's back ! And in fine form I might add !

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/16 at 07:09:56

I'm pretty sure metric bolts have a graded system. The POINT HERE is, Buy Quality, know How to install it, use the Appropriate tool.
You don't use a 3/4" ratchet with adapters down to 1/4" to run a 10mm socket. You don't use a 1/2" torque wrench with a 150 ft/lb top end for a fifty ft/lb application. A little bar type is fine for that.
And, when every time you take a step you find yourself standing
Solidly on a garden rake and a goose egg between your eyes
You start asking for advice BEFORE you actually Do anything that could even possibly go wrong.

I'm pretty experienced, but I will not be jetting the carb without running it by the guys here.
I asked questions when I got here 11 years ago. I'm embarrassed by some of them, but I didn't want to screw anything up.. And I was making a living with my tools for years,, but the bike was new territory, so I Asked First..

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 08/17/16 at 07:16:31

Yes Justin, metric bolts have a rating system. I discussed that in an earlier post in this thread.
And earlier in the thread the kid mentioned that the bolts are an odd dog with a square head, so they are too specialized for replacement with higher grade hardware.
Maybe instead of just loading one of your favorite rants and hitting 'send' you might read the thread first?
You're giving us cranky old guys a bad name ::)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/16 at 07:30:03

You're doing a right fine job of Unruffling the feathers.
If the bolt was purpose built for the location, but due to a modification, a change in the thickness of the parts to be clamped, the nut no longer is able to get a full depth engagement, then that's not the bolts fault. Whatever percentage of the nuts threads NOT filled is going to need to be considered.
The fasteners in a location like that aren't lubricated during assembly at the factory. The drop of locktite was the only smart idea I saw.
Hence,
When everything you do blows up in your face,
Stop doing first
Then asking
Why did it blow up?
Explain
Exactly
What the project is
Exactly
What steps are planned
Just saying
Im gonna install the sprocket with factory bolts and nuts.
Wouldn't be enough information here.
I'm gonna use OEM bolts that are too short to fill up the nut and I'm gonna lube everything up good and use a torque wrench that goes to 150,,
Whatever about the washers, not reading any more, not replying again, done.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by KennyG on 08/17/16 at 07:53:16

Justin,

When anything irritates you as much as The Kid does it would be a good idea to ignore him. I would hate to lose your knowledge and wit on the forum.

His parents are still waiting on the call from the hospital to confirm the mix-up.

Kenny G

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/16 at 08:03:58

I just wish he would slow down, take a breath, realize how easy it is to make life harder, and realize that there are people who have experienced and would gladly share their knowledge and experience and help him
NOT make a mess.
Don't, just DON'T go driving hardened steel into a hole..
Don't go cranking on bolts until you have some real reason to expect it to work out.
And SO FAR,just because it seems like a good idea to Cheap, that has not been demonstrated to be a sufficiently good idea.

Heck, I ask questions,, if not here, I ask my pahdnuh in Galveston.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/17/16 at 10:08:11

J O G I'm sensing you need to vent some emotions !

So why don't you tell us how you really feel !

Wait for it

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/17/16 at 10:20:22

614647475F4A330 wrote:

J O G I'm sensing you need to vent some emotions !

So why don't you tell us how you really feel !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9m8O-7J5NM

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9m8O-7J5NM[/media]

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/17/16 at 10:21:32

744F4255444853554E464B54270 wrote:

[quote author=73787571607E7567722224100 link=1471280516/30#37 date=1471387974]

Suzuki ought to have used more of a "T-bolt" instead of square head. Better seating against the hub. Something a little more like this maybe.... in proper size, with a little longer neck? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cur-95041?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-currie-enterprises&gclid=Cj0KEQjw88q9BRDB5qLcwLXr7_sBEiQAZsGjaxKLRw3KTqdB-izaBJhr9hOiftLfYVe2ulqdWGIL8vUaAoJF8P8HAQ

For goodness sakes, why can't manufacturers make good metal? is it that hard to do?

We couldn't afford to buy anything if Titanium was used for every nut and bolt ever used (a 3/8-16 bolt, 1-1/4" long when made from titanium is about $ 20.00...the same bolt in stainless is $ 0.67, the same bolt in Zinc plated Grade 8 steel is $ 0.35, Zinc plated grade 5 is $ 0.30). Nut/bolts, screws, frames, hubs, etc. are all made from materials that are cost effective, and are able to hold up to the job intended. Critical bolts that need to carry a lot of load are high strength.....and trim fasteners might be made from plastic....they are designed to do the job affordably. Your hub bolt was fully capable of doing the job - until you screwed it up by bottoming it out on the threads and perhaps putting too much torque on it. It is not Suzuki's fault that you stripped the threads. [/quote]

Well, a T-bolt would have been a better idea. No, it wasn't the problem, but it might reduce a little of the metal denting/shearing problems in the hub.

Yeah... they didn't have to use titanium. Grade 8 vs grade 5 is a better comparison. I barely bottomed it out. You probably couldn't even tell it bottomed out as it was holding/compressing the sprocket. There are probably others here who have done the chain conversion without any extra washers, so who knows? :-? My mistake might have been the lubing. Since I finally looked at a couple of those links yesterday evening, I find that I should reduce torque by a certain percentage. Yes, that's pretty much what y'all have been telling me, but in different words. One of them didn't even like anti-seize. Then I took it to at least 40, maybe 45 ft lbs, and while that was within a good margin from max, it didn't work. Maybe the torque wrench failed. Maybe Suzuki's specs were a bit high, and the lube pushed it over the edge. Armen suggested the latter. Sounds like I'll be using loctite and laying off a bit on the torque.

Now, maybe I shouldn't want to use anti-seize on everything... But I don't like stuck bolts, especially those JIS bolts. I think I had to attach a wrench onto one of those decompression cable bracket screws. It was very tedious and slow to come out. It would barely move, and then I'd have to get another hold. That may have been with ATF/Acetone, too. Those old JIS screws grip well when the screwdriver fits well. Deformed it a little, but I got it out without destroying it. Did you know that JIS (japanese phillips) screws are being phased out or something? They don't really make true JIS screwdrivers anymore. Now, its all phillips/JIS combo screwdrivers. It came to mind that new S40's probably still have JIS screws, they must not be totally phased out.

A real dilemma... If you don't use anti-seize, you risk having the bolt get stuck in the future. If you do use it, you have to reduce torque... I wonder if that increases the risk of having the bolt come loose. :-/ Can you really lube every bolt and safely reduce torque everywhere? There's the temptation to do it because it makes insertion so much easier and it makes you feel like you're making the threads last longer by lubing them and rust prevention and, and, and...

And, loctite can be a party pooper too. I never liked using that stuff. Why would you want to make your bolts get stuck on purpose? ;D I'm learning better these days... but... Do you guys think that (not red) loctite actually helps prevent bolts from totally seizing by forming a shearable intermediate layer between the bolt and threads? Or, do you think loctite makes things worse?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/17/16 at 10:30:46

67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:

Oh, I'm slowed down now... ;). If I do anything today, it might be removing a peg to see what I need for the harley peg conversion, or soldering my neutral switch back together. (Doesn't sound very slow, does it? ;D) Or... I may not do anything.

I have to wait for parts...

Now, I could throw the engine back into the frame, put the 5 remaining sprocket bolts back on, and mount the chain so I can put the clutch assembly back on and tighten up the front sprocket... pretty much do everything except drive it... ::), and then get Armen's set of bolts, break the chain, take the wheel back off, remove the bolts, put in the other bolts... and then drive it.

Meh... With my luck, I'll break something with only 5 bolts in the sprocket, right? ::)

Nah, actually, I have to start getting ready for work around 3:00 or so. I don't really have time to do a whole lot anyway.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/17/16 at 10:37:00

735D567B4A594B50380 wrote:

Oh... I thought you always meant the call from the hospital to find out I was dead... :-?

Mix-up... Okay... :-/ I guess that would actually be a little funny. :-/

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/17/16 at 10:42:43

353E333726383321346462560 wrote:

Well, a T-bolt would have been a better idea. No, it wasn't the problem, but it might reduce a little of the metal denting/shearing problems in the hub.

So you think that Suzuki should have used a T-Bolt....so that when you use it for to mount a sprocket that was never made for the bike......or you over torque it - it has a better chance to withstand the abuse?

I can't wait to see how well your clutch works when you leave out those pesky metal rings, or add a couple of Kevlar plates....Suzuki most likely didn't have a clue what they where doing when they designed the clutch or put those extra parts in there.

I have no problem with you trying to fix your bike, and learning new skills along the way. I do believe you have had to go much deeper than your tools/skills allow - it is a shame you got a motorcycle that hasn't been very reliable, and that you don't have any skilled mechanics in the family to help you learn.

What I find aggravating is that you try to blame the engineer/manufacturer/mechanic for building it wrong, wanting too much money for everything, and generally not doing a good job. Even with your very limited experience....you feel that you have the ability to mix chemicals, and add/remove parts ithat will result in better and cheaper stuff than the professionals can create with their vast resources. I also find it aggravating that you are so slow to take good advice....either from the experienced folks on this forum....or the Clymer manual.

I'm going over and stand next to JOG for a while.....and just watch the show.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/17/16 at 12:38:29

Dave , The screaming marmut is freakin funny !!!!

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by ohiomoto on 08/17/16 at 12:48:33

Man, I thought we had this topic wrapped up within the first couple of pages!

Carry on... :)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/16 at 13:33:27

Now, I could throw the engine back into the frame, put the 5 remaining sprocket bolts back on, and mount the chain so I can put the clutch assembly back on and tighten up the front sprocket... prett

Am I to understand that you installed and torqued
One bolt?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/16 at 13:35:50

I gotta Git me onna them Marmot things. I would build a Ride Along box for him to stand up in and train him to scream every time he saw a cell phone or someone doing anything STEWPID.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by verslagen1 on 08/17/16 at 15:05:28

627D7B7C61665767576F7D713A080 wrote:

I gotta Git me onna them Marmot things. I would build a Ride Along box for him to stand up in and train him to scream every time he saw a cell phone or someone doing anything STEWPID.

Just mount a laser on his head and have him do something useful.
like melting cell phones, lip stick cases, shavers and the like.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/17/16 at 18:35:30

I saw a guy reading a book while driving yesterday. Today, I saw a woman taking selfies at 70 mph.

:-? ::)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/18/16 at 03:10:49

073E253F7C7D4C0 wrote:

I saw a guy reading a book while driving yesterday. Today, I saw a woman taking selfies at 70 mph.

:-? ::)

If I leave home just a bit later than normal in the morning, I sometimes pass a fellow that is driving about 45 mph on a 55 mph road (everyone goes 60 mph), and this fellow has a book in his hand and is resting it on the steering wheel. His glasses are down on his nose, and he peers down through his glasses to read....and occasionally looks over his glasses at traffic. I guess he believes he is not a hazard!?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 08/18/16 at 05:31:36

And we thought cell phones were bad!

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 07:34:19

Would it be a bit hypocritical to take a picture of someone doing these awful things?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 07:35:25

7B646265787F4E7E4E76646823110 wrote:

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 08:47:31

No, I had torqued all of them and stripped one. I removed them all afterwards.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 10:04:27

444F424657494250451513270 wrote:

No, I had torqued all of them and stripped one. I removed them all afterwards.

And, once again, the details come out.

After how long?

So, was there anything done differently with the one that stripped?
Were they all torqued in stages?
I'm guessing not.

Here is something for the inexperienced.

When assembling things, get all the bolts started.
Then, gently snug them, working a pattern. A head on a V8 has a different pattern than a wheel, but the concept is the same. On a sprocket, I would not even use a torque wrench. I know what Tight feels like. But I Would get all the bolts in, snug in a crossing pattern and continue In that pattern gradually increasing the torque until I Felt the bolts come tight. If I knew that they were Supposed to be able to Take 45pounds I would be looking at the effort I was putting out and length of the ratchet and maybe even add a cheater pipe to make it easier for me.
Six bolts ,, consider the Clamping Force of six bolts. The thread angle of the bolts, the finer the thread, the less angle. So, a fine thread with a given torque will clamp tighter than a coarse thread with the same torque, all else being equal.
Take six bolts, and think about just how hard it will be to make sure that sprocket is not gonna move.
What kinda power is it getting?
What was the
Recommended Torque you were given?Usually, it's a range, not a specific target. On the Savage the torque specs are often very wide. Just because a torque spec is listed in a book doesn't mean that a torque wrench is needed.

That
It just got easier to turn
Feeling?
You don't know it yet but your body learned what it feels like Just as it starts. Do that a few more times and You will develop the feel of a bolt coming to its full potential and more isn't better..

Now, is it possible that you got a bolt that just wasn't as strong as the others?
Yep,, could be. Some stuff just isn't up to snuff. But greasing up threads reduces rotational friction which requires less Torque to achieve the clamping force. And invites stripping threads.

So,
What went wrong?
What have you learned from it?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/18/16 at 12:03:17

Sorry, I'm late to the party. The title of this thread hurts my head. So much stupid. Weapons-grade stupid. Really, it's about the dumbest thing I've ever read. It's completely insulting to everyone that has an engineering degree or has personal success as a repairmen/mechanic.

Now, with that out of the way...

Not every baby turtle makes it back to the sea. In that vein, repairing, a complicated mechanical device like a motorcycle isn't something that everyone can successfully undertake. Some owners should just go to a qualified mechanic.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by verslagen1 on 08/18/16 at 12:19:51

Yup... all hogwash. :-?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Ruttly on 08/18/16 at 12:29:59

Thank you Gary. It is all in good fun and Newbee knows I'm just messin with him. If he lived next door his bike would be running but he doesn't live next door. Ive been riding since 12 and fix my own bikes ever since and a mechanic for the last 25 years. Im glad I offended you now Newbee knows you got his back. I know I wasn't the only offender. And I won't hold it against you that your an engineer , cause if engineering was perfect we wouldn't need mechanics would we !!!

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/16 at 13:12:10

You have to question the intent after a while, as time after time the popper plug has hit the water and been drug back cross the calm surface of the water while jest looking for some bass to rise up to hit on it.

Ignorance is RANDOM, surface fishing with a bait caster rig is not random at all .....

Look at the title of this thing, Don't trust torque specs, wrenches ... or anything!

Somebody is jest fishing for some attention ....

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 14:30:08

091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 wrote:

[quote author=444F424657494250451513270 link=1471280516/60#72 date=1471535251]No, I had torqued all of them and stripped one. I removed them all afterwards.

And, once again, the details come out.

After how long? After some time... not immediately... minutes??? No more than a few hours later I'd say.

So, was there anything done differently with the one that stripped? I was in the last stage. I forget how many bolts I had torqued to 45 before that one. Not sure... I was probably mildly aware that torquing twice could cause problems, so I likely went straight for the clicker on the last stage. Again... not sure.
Were they all torqued in stages? I did torque them in stages, partly for the purpose of comparing the two torque wrenches. I doubt I had never really used the beam type before. I believe I started at 30 with-- I don't know-- maybe a couple stages above that.
I'm guessing not. Methinks you guessed wrong. ;D

Here is something for the inexperienced.

When assembling things, get all the bolts started.
Then, gently snug them, working a pattern. A head on a V8 has a different pattern than a wheel, but the concept is the same. On a sprocket, I would not even use a torque wrench. I know what Tight feels like. But I Would get all the bolts in, snug in a crossing pattern and continue In that pattern gradually increasing the torque until I Felt the bolts come tight. If I knew that they were Supposed to be able to Take 45pounds I would be looking at the effort I was putting out and length of the ratchet and maybe even add a cheater pipe to make it easier for me.
Six bolts ,, consider the Clamping Force of six bolts. The thread angle of the bolts, the finer the thread, the less angle. So, a fine thread with a given torque will clamp tighter than a coarse thread with the same torque, all else being equal.
Take six bolts, and think about just how hard it will be to make sure that sprocket is not gonna move.
What kinda power is it getting?
What was the
Recommended Torque you were given?Usually, it's a range, not a specific target. On the Savage the torque specs are often very wide. Just because a torque spec is listed in a book doesn't mean that a torque wrench is needed.

Great... I can't tell you certainly I used a crossing pattern, but I most likely did. I might have been better off without a torque wrench as, then, I may have used my intuition rather than a number.

That
It just got easier to turn
Feeling?
You don't know it yet but your body learned what it feels like Just as it starts. Do that a few more times and You will develop the feel of a bolt coming to its full potential and more isn't better..

I take it that you're saying that it slows down at getting significantly harder to turn (not necessarily easier) right as the bolt reaches its peak holding performance? Feeling for proper bolt stretch? :-?

Now, is it possible that you got a bolt that just wasn't as strong as the others? Probably ;)
Yep,, could be. Some stuff just isn't up to snuff. But greasing up threads reduces rotational friction which requires less Torque to achieve the clamping force. And invites stripping threads. True, but, assuming that what I put on there was no worse than plain motor oil, the difference isn't going to be much compared to anti-seize.

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/Slide1.JPG
http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm

So,
What went wrong?
What have you learned from it?

A. Don't trust torque wrenches.
1.Don't trust clickers, especially when they're old, out of tune, and out of their peak torque range.
2. Beam wrenches are more reliable...period.
3.Proper torque is not set in stone. It is more or less an indirect method of measuring proper tightness--only one piece of the puzzle. Bolt angle can be more accurate. Tighten till snug (or finger tight???), then a specified amount of rotation. This predicts bolt tension (longitudinal??? Am I wording it right) without the variable of thread friction getting in the way.
3. Instead of using adapters, get a torque wrench that is appropriate for the size bolt. In other words, one of these days I ought to get a 3/8 inch drive torque wrench. If it's a clicker, especially a cheap one, be well-rehearsed in calibration techniques and beware. Otherwise, get a beamer (not taking about BMW, by the way).
4. On top of that, torque properly. Be careful when torquing multiple times. You can't go to 40 ft lbs and then turn it the same direction again and expect to be able to get 35. ::) Of course, I probably knew that already. Just sayin' ;)
5. Finally, if your torque wrench is liable to cause problems, just throw it away... :D You're better off using your hand than being fooled and (hmmm... a certain other word feels nearly perfect here, but using it is simply not my style) by a lying torque wrench.

B. Torque is a combination of bolt friction and bolt tension as accomplished by the leverage of the bolt's threads. Tension is what holds the pieces together. Friction is what holds the bolt from moving. Both are important. On the friction side, there is a complicated and fine balance between keeping a bolt easily removable and keeping it from falling out without using too much bolt tension. Knowledgeable or discretionary use of bolt lubrication, anti-seize, or loctite may be warranted.
1 The presence or absence of bolt lubrication can complicate things considerably. Torque must be reduced after lubricating threads in order to avoid overtensioning the bolt, thereby stretching it too hard or stripping it of threads. As it seems, anti-seize can be the worst for causing problems, while the effect of other lubricants can be mildly significant, but not severe. Loctite serves as an initial lubricant, and torque must be reduced then as well.
2. Anti-seize is used when there is substantial risk of the bolt getting stuck and becoming difficult or impossible to remove by conventional and convenient means. Anti-seize is most useful in high temperature applications. Otherwise, it may be possible to use oil??? :-?
3.An APPROPRIATE (too high grade can be nearly like welding the bolt in place... too low, it can break loose too easily) grade of thread locker (such as Loctite brand) may be used whenever there is a substantial risk of the bolt/nut coming loose and causing a problem,and is ESPECIALLY NECESSARY when the friction provided by proper bolt torquing is not sufficient to hold the bolt in place. Over-tightening as a substitute for thread locker is often not a very good option and can sometimes be disastrous.
4. Don't trust book values. Follow the above principles. It is better to go for minimum torque than strip, especially for specialty fasteners.
5.A good hand can go a long way to finding proper tightness, in accordance with A5. Torque wrenches are not always necessary, especially with wide torque ranges.

C. I learned a little more about the value of bolt shoulders.

D. I should have checked thread length. (I knew better but missed it this time). Oversight...

[/quote]

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 14:34:07

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm
http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/Slide1.JPG

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 17:11:57

It would have been way, way, worse if I had used anti-seize. Comparably, oil lubed threads isn't much worse than dry. Going back to the source material, he seems to think that motor oil doesn't cause a problem, but anti-seize causes a substantial problem. Yeah, oil probably makes a difference. How much is another question.

For the record, I'm getting rather annoyed with all this "weapons-grade stupid" business. >:(

That bike is going to be fixed, and Mr. Loser here is going to do it, whether you have any faith in me or not!

This was a meaningful discussion, but, obviously, some of the high and mighty here don't think it's worth swine slop. >:(

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/16 at 17:12:07

That's a pretty graph, but where did it come from?

How does the pretty graph, which has no origin mentioned anywhere, have anything to do with the fasteners on your wheel assembly?

Seems like a 1/4 - 28 American thread, not many of those on an all metric Savage motorcycle.

Housing screw off a Harley? Oil pan bolt off an American car? Something American 1/4-28 that likes to strip or break would be my guess .....

Show us where this graph came from, so we can see the context and comments from the original author.

=======================================

..... and yes, we all recognize that fasteners inside their designed torque ranges are STRETCHED FASTENERS that are maintaining a designed clamping force, or tension that is what holds the parts together.

You saying you can do it by feel is like old Bill saying he could adjust his valves by ear, listening to the amount of click while it is running.

Doing it by measuring direct rotation past seating IS a way of directly determining an amount of bolt stretch, but this only applies to dry metallic flange to dry metallic flange hard bolt ups, any form of gasket in between the flanges makes the method unusable.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 17:14:20

The origin is mentioned in the previous thread. I had technical problems. The picture didn't want to show up, but the link to the image is there along with the source.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 17:15:34

1C3F3735363F3F3621530 wrote:

Size doesn't matter does it? Principle is the same regardless of size, isn't it? Are you starting to nitpick meaningless things just to discredit me?

The chart now has the source above it. Hope you're happy.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/18/16 at 17:26:40

67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:

[quote author=444F424657494250451513270 link=1471280516/60#72 date=1471535251]No, I had torqued all of them and stripped one. I removed them all afterwards.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/16 at 17:33:18

So repeat the thread reference, punkin -- every time you give a fact into evidence give the source where you got it from.

All you are saying now is that you ain't got that information any more, or that you are too lazy to go get it from wherever and plunk it down again.

We are not over there, way off in the past, we are here and now. Things from past threads are useless unless referenced.

===================================== he went and got it.

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm

At work, I was testing a bolt tensioner for a spacecraft mechanism. I had to put lubricant on the thread to prevent it from gaulling due to the high tension required on the mechanism. I wondered how effective the lubricant would be on the thread. I decided to run a few extra runs after work to determine the effects that lubricant has on bolt tension. The reasoning is that lubricant makes the nut more slippery, and therefore with the same specified torque that you apply to the nut per the manual, you would get a higher tension because of lower friction in the nut. The question was how much tension increase do you get.

A strain gauge was placed on a 1/4-28 bolt and torqued with a torque wrench to various values.

These tests are performed with the nut sitting on a ball bearing, so that part of the friction is not accounted for.

The test set-up that I had had a ball bearing that the nut is sitting on. Therefore, the only friction is in the thread. The thread were 17-4PH Cond. H700, and the nut was 6AL-4V Titanium. The material does not represent your typical automotive fasteners. However, I was interested in comparing the difference between using and not using lubricant. Since the same material is used in all tests, it is assumed that different material will exhibit the same characteristics. Plus, I did not have the right material available.

Duh, titanium nuts and super strength bolts? With the fastener working against a ball bearing to make sure there was zero stiction in the measurement system? What lab grade torque measuring tool did he use to make this evaluation anyway?

What possible relation to a Suzuki Savage Wheel Assembly metric fastener does this 1/4-28 threaded spacecraft mechanism shite even POSSIBLY have to your motorcycle ????

What was your intended point, anyway? Refresh us again please.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 17:37:07

2E25282C3D23283A2F7F794D0 wrote:

[quote author=091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 link=1471280516/60#73 date=1471539867][quote author=444F424657494250451513270 link=1471280516/60#72 date=1471535251]No, I had torqued all of them and stripped one. I removed them all afterwards.

And, once again, the details come out.

After how long? After some time... not immediately... minutes??? No more than a few hours later I'd say.

So, was there anything done differently with the one that stripped? I was in the last stage. I forget how many bolts I had torqued to 45 before that one. Not sure... I was probably mildly aware that torquing twice could cause problems, so I likely went straight for the clicker on the last stage. Again... not sure.
Were they all torqued in stages? I did torque them in stages, partly for the purpose of comparing the two torque wrenches. I doubt I had never really used the beam type before. I believe I started at 30 with-- I don't know-- maybe a couple stages above that.
I'm guessing not. Methinks you guessed wrong. ;D

Here is something for the inexperienced.

When assembling things, get all the bolts started.
Then, gently snug them, working a pattern. A head on a V8 has a different pattern than a wheel, but the concept is the same. On a sprocket, I would not even use a torque wrench. I know what Tight feels like. But I Would get all the bolts in, snug in a crossing pattern and continue In that pattern gradually increasing the torque until I Felt the bolts come tight. If I knew that they were Supposed to be able to Take 45pounds I would be looking at the effort I was putting out and length of the ratchet and maybe even add a cheater pipe to make it easier for me.
Six bolts ,, consider the Clamping Force of six bolts. The thread angle of the bolts, the finer the thread, the less angle. So, a fine thread with a given torque will clamp tighter than a coarse thread with the same torque, all else being equal.
Take six bolts, and think about just how hard it will be to make sure that sprocket is not gonna move.
What kinda power is it getting?
What was the
Recommended Torque you were given?Usually, it's a range, not a specific target. On the Savage the torque specs are often very wide. Just because a torque spec is listed in a book doesn't mean that a torque wrench is needed.

Great... I can't tell you certainly I used a crossing pattern, but I most likely did. I might have been better off without a torque wrench as, then, I may have used my intuition rather than a number.

That
It just got easier to turn
Feeling?
You don't know it yet but your body learned what it feels like Just as it starts. Do that a few more times and You will develop the feel of a bolt coming to its full potential and more isn't better..

I take it that you're saying that it slows down at getting significantly harder to turn (not necessarily easier) right as the bolt reaches its peak holding performance? Feeling for proper bolt stretch? :-?

Now, is it possible that you got a bolt that just wasn't as strong as the others? Probably ;)
Yep,, could be. Some stuff just isn't up to snuff. But greasing up threads reduces rotational friction which requires less Torque to achieve the clamping force. And invites stripping threads. True, but, assuming that what I put on there was no worse than plain motor oil, the difference isn't going to be much compared to anti-seize.

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/Slide1.JPG

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm

So,
What went wrong?
What have you learned from it?

A. Don't trust torque wrenches.
1.Don't trust clickers, especially when they're old, out of tune, and out of their peak torque range.
2. Beam wrenches are more reliable...period.
3.Proper torque is not set in stone. It is more or less an indirect method of measuring proper tightness--only one piece of the puzzle. Bolt angle can be more accurate. Tighten till snug (or finger tight???), then a specified amount of rotation. This predicts bolt tension (longitudinal??? Am I wording it right) without the variable of thread friction getting in the way.
3. Instead of using adapters, get a torque wrench that is appropriate for the size bolt. In other words, one of these days I ought to get a 3/8 inch drive torque wrench. If it's a clicker, especially a cheap one, be well-rehearsed in calibration techniques and beware. Otherwise, get a beamer (not taking about BMW, by the way).
4. On top of that, torque properly. Be careful when torquing multiple times. You can't go to 40 ft lbs and then turn it the same direction again and expect to be able to get 35. ::) Of course, I probably knew that already. Just sayin' ;)
5. Finally, if your torque wrench is liable to cause problems, just throw it away... :D You're better off using your hand than being fooled and (hmmm... a certain other word feels nearly perfect here, but using it is simply not my style) by a lying torque wrench.

B. Torque is a combination of bolt friction and bolt tension as accomplished by the leverage of the bolt's threads. Tension is what holds the pieces together. Friction is what holds the bolt from moving. Both are important. On the friction side, there is a complicated and fine balance between keeping a bolt easily removable and keeping it from falling out without using too much bolt tension. Knowledgeable or discretionary use of bolt lubrication, anti-seize, or loctite may be warranted.
1 The presence or absence of bolt lubrication can complicate things considerably. Torque must be reduced after lubricating threads in order to avoid overtensioning the bolt, thereby stretching it too hard or stripping it of threads. As it seems, anti-seize can be the worst for causing problems, while the effect of other lubricants can be mildly significant, but not severe. Loctite serves as an initial lubricant, and torque must be reduced then as well.
2. Anti-seize is used when there is substantial risk of the bolt getting stuck and becoming difficult or impossible to remove by conventional and convenient means. Anti-seize is most useful in high temperature applications. Otherwise, it may be possible to use oil??? :-?
3.An APPROPRIATE (too high grade can be nearly like welding the bolt in place... too low, it can break loose too easily) grade of thread locker (such as Loctite brand) may be used whenever there is a substantial risk of the bolt/nut coming loose and causing a problem,and is ESPECIALLY NECESSARY when the friction provided by proper bolt torquing is not sufficient to hold the bolt in place. Over-tightening as a substitute for thread locker is often not a very good option and can sometimes be disastrous.
4. Don't trust book values. Follow the above principles. It is better to go for minimum torque than strip, especially for specialty fasteners.
5.A good hand can go a long way to finding proper tightness, in accordance with A5. Torque wrenches are not always necessary, especially with wide torque ranges.

C. I learned a little more about the value of bolt shoulders.

D. I should have checked thread length. (I knew better but missed it this time). Oversight...

[/quote]
[/quote]

Funny how much information I have now JOG >:( FOLLOW THE DARNED HYPERLINKS! >:( The chart doesn't want to show. I don't know why. Maybe the post is too long. ::) Ughhh! >:(

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 17:50:34

I didn't realize that it was all about exotic titanium fasteners!http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Unhappy/unhappy-028.gif

Still, the author guesses that steel fasteners would act the same. :facepalm: http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Unhappy/brick-wall-017.gif

(Maybe it would??????)

That's one of the links someone gave me at the beginning of this thread.

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Unhappy/brick-wall-017.gif

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 17:55:43

The point was that, compared to anti-seize, motor oil isn't so bad on fasteners.

Thanks, Gary for jinxing me. :P

Now, I am starting to look stupid. >:(

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/16 at 18:05:20

Well, it is good to know your aerospace scientist used a torque wrench to do his fine measurements -- he trusted a properly used torque wrench, apparently.

And old style oil wars and torque wars are not about being stupid, it is about finding out the truth as best we (the big we, the all of us we) can determine.

The list, as a whole is composed of some very talented people. Don't assume somebody's background unless they give it to you, most of us are college or better educated and there are some fairly smart people on here. Auto Mechanics, Engineers, Quality Engineers, Six Sigma Black Belts, Building Inspectors, Municipal Engineers, etc.

The list as a whole is a pretty durn smart critter, as you will note if you watch us in motion.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 18:05:49

Looking back, even Armen said that motor oil is bad. :-/

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/18/16 at 18:17:19

This thread may look a little wacky, but it really describes some of the things that can go wrong when torquing bolts. There's useful info here that a lot of newbies can learn from. You can't just drag an old clicker out of the drawer and throw it on a bolt and really trust that something isn't going to break. Something bad can happen, and this is one instance where it happens. You guys may not respect me enough to think my threads are useful to anyone, but they are, as crazy as they may be.

This isn't the only time there's been some arguing here. Oldfeller waged a rather famous clutch war with another fellow for quite a while. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270678838

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Dave on 08/18/16 at 18:46:29

Why is it that most people on this forum can get their motorcycle fixed in one or two pages....and this thread is 7 pages long in reference to a single stripped bolt?

And the fork oil thread was 8 pages the chain thread was 8 pages, the broken bolt in the head was 7 pages...and I believe there have been several other threads that approach this length over relatively small issues.

I am starting to see a pattern here!

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/16 at 19:16:27

Is any of the information thrown out for the newbies to ingest WRONG, FALSE or MISLEADING?

Hey, it is or it isn't, intent isn't an issue here as wrong information being fed to newbies is simply unacceptable.

Example, telling folks you cannot trust a torque wrench as a rule of thumb is a potential newbie offence in my eyes .......

Mixing up strange mixed concoctions to put in your front fork tubes goes way past this to the potentially dangerous (with some liability implications for the list, so we might want to excise that entire thread sorta like what I did with my own car tire thread from years past).

We need Hizzonor to rustle around in his closet and see if he can find his wig and his robe -- we may need him to sit a case if this sort of stuff continues ....

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by gizzo on 08/19/16 at 03:50:51

Perhaps these threads should come with a disclaimer "warning: the content of this thread is for entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as advice. Following procedures promoted on this thread could lead to damage, injury or disappointment".
It is pretty fun following the cheapy circus. Keep up the good work.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/19/16 at 06:39:45

5C464240417F4E5D5B5D464B484A2F0 wrote:
Perhaps these threads should come with a disclaimer "warning: the content of this thread is for entertainment purposes only and should not be taken as advice. Following procedures promoted on this thread could lead to damage, injury or disappointment".
It is pretty fun following the cheapy circus. Keep up the good work.

The threads should be deleted. No one will miss them.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by KennyG on 08/19/16 at 06:58:22

AMEN

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Art Webb on 08/19/16 at 07:05:53

these threads remind me of that old 80s tune 'I saw the sign'

the part of the chorus that goes

"Life is demanding
without understanding" :-/

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/20/16 at 20:18:24

One lump or two? :D

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/20/16 at 20:18:46

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/20/16 at 20:23:15

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by cheapnewb24 on 08/20/16 at 20:25:03

"One lump or two..." I kept thinking of the Mad Hatter. Then I found this little gem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26RTlPgg-tA
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26RTlPgg-tA[/media]

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 09/27/16 at 14:51:43

I think you were asking what I was going to do with my sprocket carrier. Here is a pic. I Heli-Coiled the carrier, and used Stainless button head bolts.
Not brilliant from an engineering point of view, but it looks cool ;)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by old_rider on 09/27/16 at 15:50:13

Okay I promised to never post in another thread started by this guy but I can't help myself, moderators please change this guy's name to Murphy, for Murphy's Law thanks ::)

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 09/27/16 at 18:22:11

Armen, why'd you use Heli-coils?

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Armen on 09/27/16 at 18:50:02

The stock set-up is the square headed 10mm bolts coming through from the back. I wanted to use 10mm button heads from the front. Didn't want to argue with using nuts on the inside, so I Heli-Coiled the sprocket carrier so that I could thread in the button heads directly.

Title: Re: Don't trust torque specs, wrenches... or anyth
Post by Kris01 on 09/27/16 at 18:58:02

Ah, makes sense now.