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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Stop It /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1469304392 Message started by Ruttly on 07/23/16 at 13:06:32 |
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Title: Stop It Post by Ruttly on 07/23/16 at 13:06:32 Are you having trouble stopping your Savage/S40 ? We know that front brake is weak almost to the point of being dangerous. Yeah some good pads & a braided line help some but that's like putting lipstick on a pig ! I recently bought the upgraded setup from Shawn here on SS. This was the easiest upgrade to do , just bolt it on & bleed it. This brake works great with good feel , still breaking it in but it gets better every time I ride it. I know many have tried it, what are your thoughts about the setup ? I think it was a good investment and it looks cool too ! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Ruttly on 08/06/16 at 18:40:19 Wow 50 views and no replies. You mean to tell me no one else has bought one ! I noticed the other day while out tearing up the local farm roads & rippin thru town that I wasn't even using the rear brake at all. Guess when I see one of you on a twisty I'll just hang back till I see your brake light come on and throttle around you on the outside before I start braking and then I'll be gone,but will let you catch up so we can say hello ! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/06/16 at 20:19:28 I never saw the brakes as underperforming. I could make the front tire squeal.. I never had it on a tight track and got the brakes hot. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by batman on 08/06/16 at 22:27:10 I drive twisty mtn roads all the time,that 's where I live,but I never use my brakes ,I use compression braking going into a tight curve and power out halfway through,if your waiting to see my brake lights you won't be passing me cause I'd be gone! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Ruttly on 08/06/16 at 23:13:35 If all your using is compression braking going into turns your going slow. My point is the stock front brake sucks good pads, braided hose,drilled rotor it still sucks. I'm sure you would whoop some butt on your roads just like I would whoop you on my roads. You have an unfair advantage , that would be your aerodynamic latex suit !!! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by LANCER on 08/07/16 at 03:57:37 Ya'll sure bragging a lot about your skills. Is your youth feeling froggy or something ? |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Dave on 08/07/16 at 04:08:09 I bought Shawn's big brake kit, and this is my second riding season with it. It definitely is a huge improvement over stock. Most normal riding can be done with just 2 fingers on the brake lever.....aggressive braking takes another finger or two, and the brake is very smooth and controllable (it is not a touchy/grabby brake...it is very linear). When (and how) you ride makes a big difference in your braking needs. When I am on a casual ride on the local roads......I don't do a lot of braking for the corners. We have a pretty open view of what is ahead, our hills our not real steep, and I seldom break the speed limits......it can take me several hundred miles of riding to seat a set of new pads with this kind of riding, and the stock brake worked OK - but it was definitely not as good as the brakes on my other bikes. When I am on roads like the Dragon, Moonshiner 28, and riding in TN/NC, I use the brake a lot. The area has very steep hills, decreasing radius turns, and very tight turns that cannot be taken at normal riding speeds. When you ride at a fun speed on these roads - you are going to be using your brakes......a lot! Last year I made a few aggressive runs on the Dragon, and a few times I was braking so hard the bike would "shimmy".....I believe there is so little weight on the back tire that it wiggles around. Shawn's big brake kit did just fine and never gave a wimper (MM and Oldfeller's rotors had turned light blue/purple on that same trip to the Dragon), The big brake kit isn't needed by everyone - some folks never push their bike beyond what the stock front brake is capable of......but if you do want/need a better front brake, it does make a huge improvement. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 05:28:39 Well, I'm doing a 12mm Grimeca master (had to change master with the 7/8" clip-ons), completely rebuilt caliper, drilled disc, aggressive pads, steel braided line, and a very good front tire. I'll know before too long how well the set-up works. If it ain't up to snuff, then I'll do that upgraded set-up that is on the forum somewhere. -Armen PS Scuffed up the disc surface to help the pads bed in better/faster. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by sauvage on 08/07/16 at 06:01:20 I'm guessing the s40 is not a bike that most buyers want to fang. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/16 at 06:58:17 e big brake kit isn't needed by everyone - some folks never push their bike beyond what the stock front brake is capable of...... That sounds like my skill set. I'm able to scare myself and be challenged to keep my line and Feel like I'm going as hard through a corner as is reasonably sane without needing to make Big changes in speed coming into a corner. I'm only racing me. I'm just working on getting smoother and more consistent through the corners I play in. Since the bike I'm getting is wearing buckhorns instead of drag bars, and since I'm not as young and have had some New ways of thinking Come clear to me, I'm HOPING that my riding style will be less aggressive and riding slow and easy will be exhilarating enough so I don't feel the need to see how much exit speed I can get out of the corners. But then I keep Hoping for other things that don't materialize,,, so, we will see.. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by batman on 08/07/16 at 07:05:43 Well..If going into a curve marked 35 at45 and poping out at 55-60 is going slow ....just call me slowpoke! but with 13" progressive shocks reduceing my rake my bike steers faster and no matter how far I lean it it no longer drag a peg. and I do push it's limits but I've been riding the same bike 20+ years.(I've never changed the back shoes, and have only changed the front disc pad once -27,000+ miles )If you feel you have to brake going into most curves our bikes setup /or our riding styles must be somewhat different. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Dave on 08/07/16 at 09:33:33 6566736A6669333F070 wrote:
It all comes down to how far you want to carry the speed into the corner. If you want to use compression braking to slow down gradually.....you don't need any brakes. If you have the stock brakes and use them....you can carry your speed farther into the corner than you can without using brakes. If you feel the need to carry the speed as far as possible and do late braking......a big brake really helps - and it looks really cool! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by batman on 08/07/16 at 10:50:49 "really cool" is that a technical term or just opinion ? dang! makes me what to break out my tie dyed T shirt with the peace symbol on the front ,my bell bottom jeans and harness boots and just ride! :) :) :) |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Dave on 08/07/16 at 12:53:43 Would you prefer that I say it looks "Bad Ass"? :-? |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 15:14:59 Ruttly, I agree with Dave. A lot of this has to do with where and how you ride. This is a piece I wrote a while ago based on a conversation I had with an Airhead BMW owner. Most of the bikes I work on are ridden in NYC, which is a very different planet than the civilized world. Tales from the lift: Sometimes, I just need to explain stuff in a way a layman can understand... Guy shows me his very clean R75/5, says it was 'totally gone through' needs nothing. Yea, right. Notice the tires are old. Suggest new tires. Ask if the brakes had been attended to. Blank stare. Grab the front brake lever as hard as I can. Push the bars, bike rolls. "Kinda exciting, riding with no brakes, eh?" "I won't be going very fast" he says. Shake my head. "Lemme paint you a picture." I say: This is NYC. The roads look like Dresden in '46. Following distances in traffic are measured in inches. You're heading up the FDR drive at 70 MPH (which is the speed you have to travel so as to not get run over from behind) behind some Trust Fund Trinket sleeper in a 911 Porsche. Suddenly the driver sees a pothole that could swallow a refrigerator, thinks about blowing up about $4K of wheels, and stomps on the brakes. With big honking tires, brakes that could stop cancer in your lymph system, and lots of groovy electronics, the car stops in about 108'. So do you, except you do it by hitting his rear bumper at 50 MPH. As you're flying over that ass-engined Nazi slot car, the wing-tipped wonder boy behind the wheel is speed dialing his lawyer to sue you for rear-ending his toy. You spend the rest of your life in a metal chair with big wheels on the side, pissing into a bag taped to your waist. Bank stare. "Uh, what should I do?" Besides the tires, ditch the old/hard/nasty asbestos brake shoes. Install EBC brake shoes, scuff up the drums so they'll seat, new brake cable, dismember everything, lube pivots, repack/shim wheel bearings, adjust carefully. Stop better. Be less dead. He went for it : ) |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by ero4444 on 08/07/16 at 15:52:20 ok I give up, what's a Trust Fund Trinket sleeper? Had to laff at "Nazi slot clar" - you paint a picture alright. Brakes be good to have. The talk of high-speed cornering does not seem that relevant to braking. My stock bike can only corner so hard and then it grinds pegs and nuts. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by batman on 08/07/16 at 16:06:18 Armen ,no matter how big your brake disc is the real limiting factor is how much rubber is in contact with the road and the weight of you and your bike .we will never be able to stop as fast as a car,they have flat tires ,our round tires don't have that much of a contact patch.Can you stop faster with your large brake ?yes ! but still not as fast as a four wheel car. Your best weapon is your brain, not tailgateing ,and being aware of traffic is much better than a larger brake. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 17:16:16 ERO, That's spell correct killing me. it was 'Trust Fund Trinket sleeper" |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 17:17:42 did it again darn spell correct I give up. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 17:29:33 Batman, Problem is, around here if you leave more than a few feet between you and the car in front of you, someone else cuts in. Just how traffic is in the big city. As far as stopping distances, the best cars are under 100', the best bikes around 120'. So, it isn't a night and day difference. But enough of a difference to give the advantage to the car in most cases. My point was, optimize what you have. I teach Motorcycle Maintenance in NYC, and there is always some hipster with a POS 70's CB Honda with the original brakes in pathetic condition. The goal is to convince them that the whole traffic world stops much faster than they do. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by batman on 08/07/16 at 17:44:32 Yea , I had cb 750 big problems back in that era, the motors back then always out ran the rest of the bikes,and they didn't get better with age! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/16 at 18:02:54 596A757D76180 wrote:
Cmon, man.. try .. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 18:04:10 W... H... O... R... E... |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/16 at 18:35:46 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset you, JERK! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Armen on 08/07/16 at 19:06:51 ???? Spelled out the word the censor software was switching out on me. It wasn't 'sleeper' Anyway, let's get back to bikes. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Dave on 08/08/16 at 05:02:00 447768606B050 wrote:
OK..... The end result of all this could be - if you want/need more front brake......Shawn's brake kit works really well. It makes the front brake operate as well as most other "performance" bikes that are currently for sale. If you are happy with the way the stock brake works.....never mind. I was reading an article written by a Moto GP rider, and he was currently working on his braking - by concentrating on the first 3% of his braking. He stated that before you can apply full braking....you need to apply the brakes and get the bike to transfer weight onto the front wheel. You must not instantly grab a handful of front brake....as the weight is not yet on the front wheel and you will just lock up the front wheel. This is applicable to our riding for the "panic stop" that you might have to make.....you need to apply the brakes gradually (but quickly) and let the weight transfer forward onto the front wheel....as more weight transfers forward you can apply more brake. This can all take place in a very short amount of time - but you do have to allow the weight to transfer forward. It is a good idea to practice this braking technique.....so your "muscle memory/instinct" you can access it when you need it! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/08/16 at 06:12:39 764D4057464A51574C444956250 wrote:
Shawn's BBK is a simple solution to terrible problem - Suzuki got the brakes wrong on the S40. The OEM brakes "feel" wooden, even with SS lines. Initial bite is OK, but they lack linearity so the more you squeeze the less effective they become. Shawn's BBK resolves this by provided enough stopping friction so force at the handle equates to linear stopping force. Dave, the lesson you provided above is spot on. The brake lever is to be squeezed, not grabbed. The weight transfer to the front tire is significant (I've seen 75% quoted for hard stops), especially on a stock bike where the fork dive is substantial. This is why new riders need to be encouraged to leave the rear brake alone. New riders tend to get lazy and brake only with the rear, which provide wholly inadequate braking. Heck, I've been riding for over 40 years and rarely use the rear brake on the street (on dirt it's a different story and it's used to purposely slide the rear to change direction). The front brake is everything, and that's why the OEM brakes need to be upgraded - they simply don't prove enough braking force. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Ruttly on 08/08/16 at 19:07:14 Bout time got some replies Very good discussion worthy of SSs members |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Kris01 on 08/08/16 at 19:38:13 I hear of a lot of guys not using the rear brake. You're losing 25% of your stopping power by doing this. |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by Dave on 08/08/16 at 19:59:49 As your riding becomes more and more aggressive and you brake very hard with the front brake - the rear brake becomes less meaningful, and can even be dangerous. There are several fellows with road racing experience in the group of old fellows that I go out and eat with - and they tell me that they don't use the rear brake on the race track. Evidently the problem is that with so much weight transferred onto the front wheel during heavy braking - the rear is very easy to lock up.....and when that happens the rear tire will slide out as the rear will try to swing around the front end.....it is far better for them to just use the rear wheel to control the direction of the rear and not use it for the minimal braking it might provide (this style is used on the primitive racing bikes without ABS to help them). I have not reached that level of riding, and I still use my rear brake in most situations - but I have experienced the issue that the racers and sport bike riders are trying to avoid. The Honda ST1100 had a very touchy rear brake, and it was too easy to lock up. Once when I needed to stop quickly I was braking really hard, and the rear locked up and started to swing out the left side. I had to release the brakes to straighten the bike out, and then get on the brakes again - luckily I had enough room to get slowed down even with the temporary release of the brakes. It is kind of funny.....we start our riding career by being very careful with the front brake, then as we improve we use both brakes in unison....and for those folks who get to advanced levels and the threshold of maximum braking....they worry about the rear brake! |
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Title: Re: Stop It Post by stewmills on 08/08/16 at 20:23:16 IIRC, the MSF courses teach braking is 80/20 (front/rear)...but as discussed we all adapt to our individual riding style. |
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