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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Understeering bike or understeering rider? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1467625654 Message started by zipidachimp on 07/04/16 at 02:47:34 |
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Title: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by zipidachimp on 07/04/16 at 02:47:34 Took my tracker out for a run yesterday, through every corner, it wanted to run wide, even crossing the yellow, once with traffic coming! I'm going back to the stock 10 1/2" shocks in place of the longer ones to see if I can correct this. Front end is stock. Any ideas? :o |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 07/04/16 at 05:20:13 There are about 100 variables in play here. Simple things from air pressure in the tires to structural things like rake and trail all effect the handling. Tire profile, wheel base, sping rate, damping, center of gravity, how tight you have the steering nut, wheel alignment, rider technique all have an impact on handling. Make changes one thing at a time. What exactly did you do to the bike to make it a "tracker". This is a term that means different things to different people. My guess is you have a wide front tire with a high aspect ratio. That would cause a bike to understeer. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/16 at 06:49:20 Where are you looking? |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by batman on 07/04/16 at 08:23:01 Taller shocks should reduce the steering neck angle,making steering quicker,shorter shocks may be going in the wrong direction. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by verslagen1 on 07/04/16 at 09:28:58 I know what you're talking about zipi, there are days the stocker feels like she's riding in a groove. And others she knows exactly where you want to go and just goes. And no changes between those experiences. you gotta listen to her and ride accordingly. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by zipidachimp on 07/04/16 at 11:33:49 both tires are '90' as in 140/90-15, 100/90-19, 28-30psi, shocks are 12 1/2", bars are tracker style with stock bottom risers, tracker seat. Centre of gravity is likely higher. I'll work on technique first. Carb is really working well with larger jets. Intake noise at speed is pretty high with K&N cone. With the sale of my Vulcan, this is now my only ride, have all summer to work on it. Cheers! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by ohiomoto on 07/05/16 at 07:59:42 Make sure your technique is solid. I generally like to ride the outside edge of the seat (little less body lean than bike lean) and use counter steering to control the amount of lean the bike has (pushing the inside bar down and forward). Move your shoulders forward to enhance front wheel traction. I feel I can control the motorcycle a bit better on the street than simply leaning and hanging off the inside. Maybe it's the motocross in me, but that's what I like on this bike. Excessive body lean and hanging off the inside doesn't seem to work all that great with this bike IMO. (NOT ME) http://i42.tinypic.com/2am25x.jpg |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Dave on 07/05/16 at 08:22:26 The stock Savage has a lot of rake....and a lot of trail. That makes the bike very stable in a straight line. When your raise the back, and lower the front to get the Cafe' look, it reduces the rake and trail a bit - but it doesn't completely get it to the "sport bike" quickness in the corners. My Cafe' bike does steer a lot stiffer than my other bikes...it does take more force to initiate a turn. I don't know if the forward weight shift from the longer shocks causes the turning force to increase.....but trying to slolam along a dashed centerline is much harder on the Cafe' Savage than on the Ninja or NT700.. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by batman on 07/05/16 at 10:34:02 You might try higher pressure in your tires, say 30 f 36 rear . |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Ruttly on 07/05/16 at 10:46:07 With my RYCA street tracker seems to handle quite well with not to much effort in turns however I have wider bars than a cafe model. I can feel some push when going into turns too hot,I ease off throttle a bit lean some more ease back into throttle and get it to drift thru the turn, down right scary drifting on a right turn doesn't scare me as much as going left. I think the only cure would be to derake the frame by cutting out some metal ,bend,weld and add some gussets for strength. But overall she has very good manors light & agile not bad considering it started life as a cruiser. Last night I upgraded front brake with Shawn's front brake kit just have to bleed system , should keep me from going into turns too hot in the first place. Stock front brake is weak even with good pads & braided hose. Front forks lowered with Ryca Kit & progressive springs with oil level set 5.5" from top of tube to oil , spring removed and fork collapsed, with about 1" removed from spring spacer,I used ATF. Rear shocks are progressive & tires are kenda k761s on 18" rims ,front 110/80 ,rear 120/80. Oh and a fork brace too ! |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 07/05/16 at 11:40:29 2E3137302D2A1B2B1B23313D76440 wrote:
That's a technique that is hard to teach over the internet, but you are correct, it's one of the essential elements of good control. Counter-steering, body position, looking through the turn and commitment are the keys to properly turning the bike. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/16 at 11:51:26 It's not teachable even in a clinic, unless you paint targets on the road. If you're understeering , look inside the line you want. It takes a real determination to force eyes away from where it Looks like you're going and focus on where you Want to go. Once you are able to see far enough into the corner, look at where you want to be, if you're chronically wide, look inside the real target. I found some good corners,not too tight, and rode up the road, turned around, and just played in those corners a while. The best exit speeds came with less lean angle of the bike, me more down and inside, My tires and your tires, different My suspension, stock. So, YMMV. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by zipidachimp on 07/05/16 at 13:47:13 Thanks for all the ideas. I re-installed the stock shocks to confirm the reason for the taller ones, will try these again then re-install the taller ones. In the end, it may come down to me and my technique. Practice, practice, prac...........! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Ruttly on 07/05/16 at 17:37:05 Gary NJ I learned that flat tracking to scrub off some speed and transition from straights into turns. Scares the hell out of me using it on the street, and don't advise trying to learn it on the street, but it's hellafun on a dirt track. Use it only to scrub off speed and or to stay in my lane and even then it has to feel just right to get away with it on the street. But it comes in handy when you need it ! |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by gizzo on 07/05/16 at 17:37:08 7473727476746F741B0 wrote:
That's a weird body position. Like you said, that's MX style where you get on the edge of the seat to force the tyre to bite in. On the road, he'd do better to lean to the inside, drop his inside shoulder (automatically countersteering the bike) and get his head down. He'd be going around just as fast or faster, with less lean angle and more grip available. That's some wicked lean angle though. He'd get big ups at the next cafe for his zero chicken strips. ::) FWIW i find hanging off the inside works great on the Savage. Check this cat out 8-) http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/july/video-how-to-ride-a-harley-davidson/ |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/16 at 17:40:05 Chikkin strips on the tires on the bike that nobody can pass don't mean much. No chikken strips on last place? Who cares? To be, not to Seem to be. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Ruttly on 07/05/16 at 17:55:14 Yep I prefer to ride the tire and save that little strip for when I need it. Not having a chicken strip or always riding the edge reduces your margin of error , I'll leave that to the pros & young guns. Especially now that I found out getting hit by a car/suv really hurts. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by ohiomoto on 07/06/16 at 05:42:17 253F3B393806372422243F323133560 wrote:
That's a weird body position. Like you said, that's MX style where you get on the edge of the seat to force the tyre to bite in. On the road, he'd do better to lean to the inside, drop his inside shoulder (automatically countersteering the bike) and get his head down. He'd be going around just as fast or faster, with less lean angle and more grip available. That's some wicked lean angle though. He'd get big ups at the next cafe for his zero chicken strips. ::) FWIW i find hanging off the inside works great on the Savage. Check this cat out 8-) http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/july/video-how-to-ride-a-harley-davidson/[/quote] I'm not saying that you can't succeed with more commitment and body lean, but I strongly disagree that this is what the OP needs to be working on. Especially since they haven't ruled out the possibility that the bike isn't handling as is should. The OP is already having issues controlling his line. Top speed out on the street isn't what he/she should be striving for at this point. Hanging off the inside requires more commitment and skill in my opinion. I find the technique I mentioned allows for easier line adjustments throughout the turn as needed. Sort of like, well, racing off road. I feel that it would be a safer way to learn how to control lines and sort out a bike. Of course these are my opinions based on my experience. For the record, I DO NOT have road race experience. (Though I can hang off the inside of a bike.) Maybe I'd feel different if I had. Ultimately, it sounds like the OP is doing the right thing. Try some different riding techniques and see what works best for them and the bike they are on. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Dave on 07/06/16 at 06:04:15 7C5B5A5A42572E0 wrote:
We rode at the Dragon with MMRanch's young nephew....and he told me I was slowing down for the corners too much. I showed him the edges of my tires, and I pointed to the 1/4" of chicken strip on the edges of my tires. I said "see that little strip of unused rubber on the edges......that is what keeps me from taking a trip to the hospital. It is that little extra margin that allows me to stay upright". Less than 24 hours later we were picking him up at the hospital........he got separated from us and went to ride the Dragon alone......and he went into a corner too fast and low sided (but his chicken strips were gone!). Folks with Sport Bikes and really grippy tires may be able to lean their bike waaaay over and use all the tread surface - but on public roads the pavement is never perfect, and you should never corner at your 100% maximum. It is not uncommon to see scraped leathers and bodywork on those folks who push the limits on a regular basis. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by ohiomoto on 07/06/16 at 06:12:09 And a word of caution. I knew a retired police officer who took up road racing. He took some courses, did some track days, etc. Later that summer he put himself under a car at one of our metro parks. He survived but he got busted up to the point where he couldn't ride anymore and he had to give up skiing and golfing, basically messed up his retirement plans. He told me he misjudged a corner, went left of center and laid it down trying to recover. Public roads is not the place to practice road racing. Be careful out there. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/06/16 at 07:40:46 Should people be mentally capable of grasping the difference between dropping a bike on wet grass or sand at a stop and an At speed crash, I can say that I had more fun, explored the bikes and my own abilities more than on any other bike save for the dirt bikes people let me ride.. And I never crashed it.. The bikes own limitations kept me from going too crazy. If you're having trouble with your lines, yes, Do slow down and work on it at lower speeds. The right peg trapped my foot several times, hard enough to hurt, making me pull the foot out, it Will lean. But Strive for the Line, Ride your line,then adjust speed. And Feel of the bike. And any curves you get friendly with, if you slammed through hours ago and you're back, Don't Assume that asphalt is still clear.. I decided to study a favorite curve and discovered spilled paint.. it's a public road, no safety crews, Ride to survive.. |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by Kris01 on 07/06/16 at 16:47:35 3E39383E3C3E253E510 wrote:
342B2D2A3730013101392B276C5E0 wrote:
Amen to that! |
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Title: Re: Understeering bike or understeering rider? Post by gizzo on 07/06/16 at 16:49:37 7176777173716A711E0 wrote:
That's cool. I was just pointing out that they guy in the photo has an awkward style and that he'd have been better off not sitting upright on the bike and that he'd have more tyre in reserve if he rode differently. Getting up and away from the turn causes the rider to automatically countersteer the wrong way, makes a higher workload because he has to consciously counter countersteer, while also losing ground clearance. The chicken strip comment was suggesting that he'd be able to impress the Gixxer Bros at the next cafe, who pay attention to strips, or lack thereof. I'm not suggesting that strips should be used as measure of rider skill. Far from it. But, to each their own, and whatever helps you ride safely and with well placed confidence is a good thing. I think the OP knows how to ride and was asking for chassis advice more than style tips. I bet he has that covered. |
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