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Message started by cheapnewb24 on 07/03/16 at 15:09:38

Title: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/03/16 at 15:09:38

I've mentioned this kind of question before...

What's the cheapest, best bang for the buck way of experimenting with the chain conversion? Should I buy new or used parts? I gather that sprockets and chains tend to do best when replaced together.. right? That suggests new parts. However, if I change sprockets, that negates that effect.

Does anyone have something to sell me?

I noticed that 17/43 is popular, but I live in the mountains and already have the 140/90 tire, Has anyone tried a 17/47? After having driven my car a lot again, I feel like I'm revving the tar out of the bike at 60 indicated. I ride several miles of highway (not Interstate) during my regular commute. 60-70 mph is my typical highway speed.

I think I'm going to need a stronger clutch for harder takeoffs. Do you think I can stuff another couple of discs in there? (The "Yoda" Hi-Po clutch that people here have talked about). I only have about 18k on the bike? I remember that Oldfeller was collecting clutch discs. :-?

Oh, yeah... as a reminder... my belt must be replaced with something fairly soon, as it is torn half in two.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Kris01 on 07/04/16 at 15:40:14

Go with new parts. Old parts are being sold/replaced for a reason! ;)

However, if you find sprockets for $1, why pass it up?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/05/16 at 10:40:59

You might want to look at 17/45 as a combo for highway/mts.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Kris01 on 07/05/16 at 17:48:42

I agree with Batman. What did I just say?!?!? :o ;D

Anything higher than that and you'll probably need more torque to pull the weight.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/05/16 at 20:39:09

Kris,you picking up bad habits?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Kris01 on 07/05/16 at 20:52:32

I've never agreed (or disagreed) with Batman before! Autograph? ;D

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/05/16 at 22:11:35

0A3328327170410 wrote:

I agree with Batman. What did I just say?!?!? :o ;D

Anything higher than that and you'll probably need more torque to pull the weight.

LOL! ;D

Good Point. I am considering clutch work as it is. I'd like to keep a little get up and go. I think I'll probably gravitate towards 17/47 for everyday use. I already have the 140/90 rear tire. That combo should be very close to 17/45 with stock 140/80 tire.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/06/16 at 18:00:50

The stock clutch will work without slip,you'll be wasteing your money on an upgrade.If your clutch is slipping take out the plates ,give them a lite sanding to brake the glaze and reinstall.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Kris01 on 07/06/16 at 20:19:58

A clutch "upgrade" usually ends up grenading itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmzGblbeDuU

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/06/16 at 22:37:14

Actually, I have been considering the Barnett Kevlar clutch in order to avoid breaking the supposedly weak throwout piece. That's not the first time I've seen that video. I'm wondering if I can get by by just changing the friction plates and keeping the factory steels and springs. What do you think? Do the steels need replacing? Are kevlar plates compatible with the factory steels?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Serowbot on 07/06/16 at 23:18:21

Life is compromise...
I've come to believe, a 140/90 with stock final drive is maximum for versatile mountain riding...
When I went to a Kawa front pulley, I felt like I only had one gear option for any turn... ...rather than a choice of two gears for any point in any turn...

Every other bike I've ever owned, worked well with a gearing bump,.. but this one seems to me to be happiest where it is...

Better riders than me, may have different results...
... Dave and Versy both have... and others...
... but, I am a pretty good rider...

The question is,.. will higher gearing give you more than it takes away?..
...and are you good enough to compensate for that loss?...
...or,.. are you willing to accept slower performance in order to have a lower rpm as you cruise the most boring part of any ride?...

Highway, for me is no more than a painful necessity...

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by gizzo on 07/07/16 at 01:46:31

Why do you Still think you need a better than stock clutch? You gonna be drag racing or stunting? If you're not, the stock clutch is just fine. Interestingly (or not), when I visited my local NOS Suzuki guru for clutch plates, he mentioned Suzuki uses the same plates in LS 650, all manner of GS and GSX, PE 2 strokes and DRs among others. Pretty sensible of them, for once.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/07/16 at 12:08:48

Because, the last time I tested it with a hard launch, it took awhile to hook. Maybe the engine wasn't fully warmed up. Maybe it just needs an oil change. It's okay for casual driving, but not hard driving. Are there any drawbacks to the Barnett clutch besides money? I've noticed that some prefer the OEM clutch to the Barnett, but not specifically for the Savage. The Savage seems to be known for having a weak clutch, and with that weak throwout arm, it seems that the best bet is some stickier plates with the factory springs. I think JOG said that he broke his throwout arm from merely shimming the springs.

On the other hand, maybe the lag is due to the time required to squeeze out the oil film? I don't want a clutch that goes a slippin' then grabs too hard. I just want it to grip firmly and smoothly without a shock load. I am guessing that stronger springs would do a better job at that? Would stickier plates with light springs cause problems with slip and shock, if you know what I mean? But, then, if I used stronger springs, wouldn't I would want a stronger throwout arm? :-/ Can it be easily made? I don't need to jerk the stuffins out of it, I just want a strong grip. Not that I rev it too high... but when I simply pin the throttle and let go of the clutch, I want it to MOVE! Wouldn't you?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/07/16 at 12:52:40

I wheelied mine without jerking the bars, ONCE..
What oil are you using?
Additives?
What do you weigh?
I don't know anyone who has said it is a weak clutch.
I did break the throwout.
Someone here is running the Barnett and has not broken anything, so, it's hard to say if the shims caused anything.
It's been known to break with stock, no mods, clutch.
It's just sintered Metal.. not cast, not billet, heated, crushed powder..

Sintering is the process of compacting and forming a solid mass of material by heat and/or pressure without melting it to the point of liquefaction. Sintering happens naturally in mineral deposits or as a manufacturing process used with metals, ceramics, plastics, and other materials.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by verslagen1 on 07/07/16 at 13:22:06

as far as I know, barnett makes 2 types, cork and kevlar.
so saying barnett don't mean anything.
I broke mine with HD springs.
I'm still have the HD springs with the new throwout lever for longer than the original lever.
so who's to say it wasn't due to some misadjustment?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/07/16 at 16:08:02

I wonder how consistent the strength and integrity of sintered metal parts are. And what can you imagine that You, I'm talking about You, because you're pretty up to speed on the clutch stuff, aren't you? So is there anything that you question having right?
The rod is pretty much everything that could be outta kilter, init?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/08/16 at 12:36:47

Newbee rycas chain conversion is a 19 counter and a 52 rear they say it closely matches the stock ratio. Those are the only ones I know of unless you have them made $$$ or find some used

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/08/16 at 12:52:39

I don't think you can fit anything over a 17 tooth counter on our bikes,13 to 17 I believe are what you can use.stock ratio 2.956,17/50 gearing 2.941

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/08/16 at 15:18:44

My mistake they sell a 17 & a 18 or buy the complete kit , I used the 18 & had a 54 custom cut but I think I'm going back to a 17

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/08/16 at 20:02:16

534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:

I use Rotella dino with zddp added, but it's got around 2k on it, and I've added a bit. Last I checked, I weigh at least 205 in the morning-- no breakfast, no gear. Maybe I'm just too fat. :D

(I am 6'1", by the way)

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/08/16 at 20:35:28

At least 205

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/08/16 at 20:43:02

5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:

:-?

Your thoughts seem a little jumbled. Are you trying to say, "What could you (meaning I) possibly think is wrong with your clutch because I assume you are well aware of the problems that could be encountered with the Savage clutch?" ???

Alright... Well... There are a few things to talk about here from what you've said and what I know and have read...

1. I assume (I could be wrong) the sintered piece that breaks is the shaft with the little cam lobe on it that presses the throwout rod. :-? Too much pressure and torque from heavy springs, combined with manufacturing defects causes them to break. Or is it the rod itself?

2. The rod itself comes in three different lengths to accommodate for clutch wear. As the clutch pack wears. the back plate that the rod presses against draws in towards the rod, necessitating a shorter rod... Or do I have it backwards? I know there was a big thread about this whole rod size confusion. Anyway, and inappropriate length of rod will cause the clutch to be out of its prime region of travel due to leverage changes on the outside and/or cam lobe contour on the inside of the case (probably the latter). Therefore, it won't be able to effectively move the plates their maximum distance. When this occurs, The clutch cannot be adjusted satisfactorily by conventional means. No matter which way you go, it will either slip too much or drag too much. The target travel is signified by two marks on the engine case. My lever is still barely within this target. I doubt I have a problem in this area because I can still get satisfactory disengagement along with plenty of free-play. Therefore, I would assume the the throwout mechanism is not substantially getting in the way.

3. I broke my clutch adjuster. :( This makes me want to put a lot of slop in the clutch in order to make sure the broken pieces are not holding the cable in substantial tension. I am not sure I had made that adjustment before my test. It still disengages good enough, but I'd like to get that fixed. I doubt this is the problem.

4. My oil needs to be changed within 1K miles. This could be causing grip problems. It's just Rotella 15w-40 with zddp additive. I cannot tell what any of the PO's did, though. :-?

5. The engine may not have reached full operating temperature. The oil wasn't cold, but, maybe it wasn't hot enough. The reason for this is something my Dad mentioned or reminded me of a few days ago. Being a wet clutch, it may take a while to squeeze out the oil film and hook. (Reminds me of he Hele-Shaw clutch, which worked solely on the principle of an oil film-- theoretically-- without friction material.) Stronger springs should help in this regard, pressing out the oil film, but perhaps the material matters too. Maybe that Kevlar stuff can absorb and shear away the film instead of gliding on it like glass. However, the stickiness made me wonder whether it will slip awhile and then grab violently. Don't want that.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/16 at 23:20:52

Actually,I was addressing Versy.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/16 at 09:26:42

544B4D4A5750615161594B470C3E0 wrote:

A lot of times when I take a stock rod out, it has a burr around the shoulder.
I usually grind both ends of the rod till they're spherical in shape.
This shape matches the throwout lever.
But it does shorten the rod so don't do it unless you need a shorter one or have longer ones available.
Next I aim at getting the throwout rod between 12 and 12.5mm out of the clutch pack.
This optimizes geometry for clutch operation.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/10/16 at 10:30:57

YOU want harder launch, with highway gearing ,good luck! Are you installing a turbo?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/10/16 at 20:56:55

Maybe I should get my parents to fund an expensive experiment to have a custom-made 5th gear or something. Then I could sell them to everybody.... all for a cheap beginner bike.

Frustrating isn't it?

No one has found a way to transplant a suitable 5th gear to date.

But then, highway gearing on a Savage is comparable to a 650 Triumph, so it's not too crazy. Check out gearing commander for T120r

At least maybe I can get a clutch to grip well enough to get use from what power I've got.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/10/16 at 21:38:35

Newbee,RYCA also sells some smaller rear sprockets for savage too more suitable for highway gearing .

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/10/16 at 23:02:35

16313030283D440 wrote:

My mistake they sell a 17 & a 18 or buy the complete kit , I used the 18 & had a 54 custom cut but I think I'm going back to a 17

Ruttly,If I were you I'd go back to a 17 ,one of your gears should be a prime number to allow more even wear on your sprockets.54 can be divide by18which makes the links land in the same place on your rear sprocket much more often,a 17 front would make the chain change one tooth every revolution ,or not repeat for 100 revolutions on a 100 link chain.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/11/16 at 10:17:18

Batman what have you been smokin in the bat cave ? That's the goofiest thing I ever heard, do you have any docs to back up that ? That's goin cause some real bad mojo ! Really it's just a chain & sprockets. Are you a math professor in real life ? I got it I'll install a half link just to screw up the prime number thing ! Yeah I know What an ass that guy is !

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/11/16 at 10:37:40

Why Start with sneering at a new idea?

http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/154060-excellent-chain-sprocket-information.html

Look for answers,

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/11/16 at 10:46:20

ruttly I haven't smoked in years ,didn't you ever see the ratios normally used for chain conversions? 17/45 ,17/47 , 17/43etc. all having numbers not being able to be divided by 2 . Maybe you should read more and ride less ,and not pay good money for a custom 54 tooth gear.check out JOG's link above ,and you'll begin to understand the error of your ways!If your running an18 front your running ,I'm guessing ,plain chain ?If you go with the 17 you have room to run an o-ring chain that might not snap and hit you in the a$$.FB chain.com,"a sprocket with odd numbers of teeth will offer at least double the service life of a sprocket with an even number of teeth"-Peter Church-FB chain

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/11/16 at 10:57:46

Search

maximize chain sprocket life prime number tooth count

All that is required is a curiosity and enough grasp of the concept to create a good search. The innerneck is more better than a good library.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/11/16 at 12:03:37

Oh just havin some fun , thanks for the link , I will read it !
Expendables grips levers tires brakes oil filters chain sprockets
The cost of having FUN !

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/11/16 at 12:30:08

Ruttly,we all ride for fun don't we ?I'm just trying to show people how to have twice the fun for the same money. I might be more in tune to this being retired on a fixed income,but I think many of us young and old,don't make the big bucks.sorry If I sounded a little raw, but I may say and do things out of the box ,but I try not to steer anyone wrong.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Dave on 07/11/16 at 13:01:04

517677776F7A030 wrote:

It is true.....you should avoid ratios that will run the same tooth on the same chain link repeatedly. Porsche even has their boxer engine set up with a missing tooth in the primary cam gears and an extra one in the cam chain sprockets so that the gears and chain pulleys are always moving around to mesh with different teeth and links.....it evens out the wear.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/11/16 at 15:18:11

The 18 came with the kit with a 52, I put the 54 on to gain some clearance between chain & top of swingarm. Still want tad lower gearing & closer ratio that's why I was going to a 17. Just goes to show you learn something new everyday. The new sprocket I had cut weighed about 1/3 of the steel one

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by gizzo on 07/11/16 at 16:57:53

automotive gearboxes have odd numbered gears for the same reason.

" The innerneck is more better than a good library."

Ouch, justin. As someone who works in an academic library, I object. That attitude just makes it harder for me to earn a living. (just funnin' ya. The interwebs is awesome. Lots of chaff to sort through though).

Anyway, doesn't Yoshi have a chain conversion for sale? Why don't you buy that, cheapy? Be less than a new set. Oh and count me out for the custom 5th gear. My Cabbage only has 4. And it's just right.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/11/16 at 17:26:09

The less money it costs me to have fun, the more fun it Iz!

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by gizzo on 07/11/16 at 17:40:05

I hear ya :)

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/12/16 at 14:19:01

Batman , Thank you I will never doubt a man wearing a latex suit again !!!

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/12/16 at 19:35:50

Ruttly,It keeps me dry in the rain! If you go to a 17 tooth you might look in to a geared idler bolted or welded to your swing arm might help with your clearance problem.or shorter/longer shock spring lengths depending on your tire to fender clearance.

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Kris01 on 07/12/16 at 19:51:36

Does an 18 tooth gear fit with no clearance issues?

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/12/16 at 22:01:52

Kris,fits just fine 18/52 is what RYCA says is closest to stock gearing.

Batman,With the 54 in rear gave me the clearance needed,17 won't change clearance that much. Was out riding it today noticed that rear shocks have 0 sag,springs to heavy,causes push when going into turns too fast,forks feel real good. Already had to fab chain tensioner due to swingarm angle caused by longer shocks. Lighter springs & 17 are next. Shawn's upgraded front brake is seating in & is bad ass what a great binder with great feel !

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by Ruttly on 07/12/16 at 22:04:56

Batman, Fenders? Street Tracker = no fenders,they weight to much

Title: Re: Chain conversion
Post by batman on 07/13/16 at 18:12:50

RUttly ,sounds like your taking care of business! I"d watch that rear sprocket being alum. it may wear a little faster than the front ,good luck ,ride safe .