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Message started by mastercarstech on 06/21/16 at 21:06:25

Title: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/21/16 at 21:06:25

Hey guys! This bikes a 86 with the 4 speed trans. It was a total basket case when I bought it, the engine was in the frame but the stator cover and a bunch of other parts were in a box when I got it. It took me almost 3 years off and on and a ton of repairs before I finally got it running. I did take the clutch cover, shifter cover and mechanism, and as I said the stator cover was already off. I did it to clean it up and reseal as much as I could before I put it back together. Now it runs pretty good and rides fairly well except it won't go into first gear, feels like when trying to downshift that it's at the end of the shift pattern even though it only goes to neutral. When up shifting from neutral it grinds a bit before it'll go into second gear. Shifting to third gear is fine and shifting to fourth gear sometimes will go right in and sometimes it doesn't want to go at all. I was running Mobil 1 v twin oil but will be switching to 15w 40 Rotella t5.
I pulled the shifter mechanism back off to see if maybe I didn't get it lined up right when I put it together but didn't see anything obvious.
Any thoughts on what I should look for? Unfortunately it didn't run when I got it so I have no idea if this is self inflicted or was a preexisting problem.
Oh, I also installed a 4inch forward control set up but don't think that's the problem but I could be wrong.
Sorry for the long post but wanted to give as much info as I could. Thanks in advance! :o

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by verslagen1 on 06/21/16 at 21:11:03

maybe just the position of the shifter arm, should be pointed straight down.
and since you can't get it into 1st, it may only be off 1 tooth.
I had this problem once and it was a long time ago.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/22/16 at 06:04:43

Congratulations , you've been further into the engine than most.
If it's self inflicted , you're not going to be laughed at.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by ohiomoto on 06/22/16 at 13:41:11

I agree, check the position of the arm and also the forward control. You should have the same amount of "throw" for upshifts and downshifts and it should be the same for all gears. I the throw is off for only certain gears, then you'll need to split the cases and make sure the pins on the drum are properly seated. This is highly unlikely if the cases have never been split.

If all else fails, pick up a bottom end. I have a used 87 4 speed bottom end for sale in classifieds. Or PM me.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/22/16 at 21:12:35

Ok, hope to get back to work on it this weekend as I'm waiting on a new stator, yah, that went bad too.
Thinking about upgrading to a 5 speed if I have to replace the bottom end. Are any of the years not compatability to my 86? What else might I need to change?
Thanks.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/22/16 at 21:14:04

Someone who knows will come along..

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by verslagen1 on 06/22/16 at 21:54:31

If you change to a 5 spd, you'll need to keep the 4 spd rotor as it's timed to the cdi.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by Savageman on 06/22/16 at 22:18:00

Usually a shifting issue is a bent shift fork or worn shift drum or clutch out of adjustment.
I have a 5 speed bottom end for sale for $90.00 plus shipping. Should be a easy swap out with your top end and side covers. There may be a issue with the rotor so you would just have to swap with your rotor. They have diff part numbers so I assume it's a timing issue with the TDI unit.

Let me know,
Don

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/23/16 at 09:14:45

Thanks Don definately considering it. Might a winter project though. Wanna get some riding in before summers over. Seems they keep getting shorter up here in Northeast Ohio! 8-)

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/23/16 at 12:32:03

Hey, if anyone has a link to like a YouTube video of how the sequential shift mechanism is supposed to work I'd greatly appreciate it. It's always easier to fix what I did wrong if I know how it's supposed to work normally. Lol

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/23/16 at 14:57:30

suzuki motorcycle sequential shift mechanism

Not to be a snot, though I Am imminently qualified whether I have a sinus problem or not, I ran that through a search engine and saw stuff I would study if I was in the same trouble you're in. You've done pretty dang good, hope you win it.

You don't know why it was torn down, do you?
You Might be chasing the problem that the seller had.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/24/16 at 09:54:38

Justin, as far as the engine goes, just the stator cover had been taken off and put back on loosely when I got it. Guy said it wouldn't crank and probably just needed a starter. Guy never should've been allowed to own a tool, he definately did more damage than good to it. After I got into it to find out what the real problem was, I found it had busted the boss in the case for the starter gear and the stator cover had a hairline Crack in it, I think from someone trying to shove it together without having everything lined up properly.
That was as far as he went into the engine, thank God. The rest of the bike, well, let's just say there might be 1 or 2 wires I didn't replace because practically every wire harness was melted to a crisp. Lol

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by verslagen1 on 06/24/16 at 10:04:36

282436312037262437363120262D450 wrote:

The 4 spds have a problem with the starter because of the 1way clutch they use.
On shutdown, if the piston comes up on the compression stroke, it will reverse the engine and engage the starter with enough force to break teeth or bust out the bosses for the starter gears.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/24/16 at 10:15:50

Sounds like you would have been ahead to sell the labor hours to someone else and buy a bike, but, I understand that it's not just about the dollars and cents, but about the challenge of saving the poor thing...
You're up to speed on the starter gear swap, right?

That was as far as he went into the engine, thank God.

He figured out he was in over his head a bit late,

I don't know how to actually help you, but I can cheer for you..
I have the equivalent of an associate's degree in electronics, fixed copiers and cash registers for seven years, and I don't want anything to do with repairing a melted harness... No Thanks..

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by batman on 06/24/16 at 10:50:06

It could be when PO was reassembling the side cover he placed the washer on the wrong starter gear ,then tried to force on the cover causing it to crack,it"s been done before as the washer will fit on either gear,but jams them and could account for some of your wires doing a meltdown.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/24/16 at 15:06:58

Yah, I'm up to speed on the starter gear. Even bought one of the updated gears off eBay but then realized I wouldn't be able to use it because of the way I fixed the original gear to work with the broken boss in the case so I've been trying to be careful when I shut it down and usually kinda choke it out by opening the choke part way when I hit the kill switch. Seems to help.
I hope to post my fix for the starter gear once I get familiar with uploading pics and have the time.
Lesson learned, do your research before purchasing! If I had, I would've probably passed on this one and held out for a newer model with the updates.
Thank God for this forum and all of you guys! Never would've gotten this far without you! ;D

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/24/16 at 15:10:03

Oh, and there definately is a little pride in being able to take something that several other people have had their fingers in without success and being able to bring it back to life. :P

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/24/16 at 16:13:37

It LIVES! It LIVES!

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/26/16 at 21:04:43

Finally got a little time to work on the bike tonight. I had taken the shifter cover off the other night but didn't see anything obvious and the gears were lined up properly. So tonight the first thing I did was slide the shift arm on the shift shaft and see if I could shift through all the gears: it would only shift up one gear into second and back into neutral, not down to first. It may be I didn't have enough leverage since it would shift into 3 or 4th either, not sure. Next I went ahead and dissembled the cam drive gear and shift pawl assembly, still nothing obvious.
Just a note, if you're ever taking this apart, be very careful taking the shift pawl assembly out. Use two hands if necessary and hold the pawls in place and be prepared to catch the pins, springs, and pawls because they have spring tension on them and like to fly in opposite directions. :o. Also, zip lock baggies are real handy for keeping those tiny parts from disappearing. All that's left now is the stopper plate and the stopper arm. I left the stopper arm in and just removed it's spring so it wouldn't be in the way and then removed the stopper plate. Still nothing obvious.
So I tried putting the bolt back into the end of the shift drum to have something to try to turn it with and try to shift through the gears. Seems to move fairly easily but the shift drum moved out a little and that made me a little nervous as I really didn't want anything inside the Trans to come apart. Probably wouldn't but I wasn't going to take the chance. I was able to get the shift drum to neutral and made sure the stopper plate lined up with stopper arm in the neutral position. Then I put the cam driven gear and the shift pawl assembly back on and tightened the bolt. Now the shift pawl assembly has flats on it that I could put a large crescent wrench on and that gave me a little leverage to be able to move the assembly and shift through the gears. Again shifted into 2nd and back to neutral easily, I could feel it shift and turning the output shaft verified it was in gear. Tried up shifting again and got it into 3rd and 4th by rotating the output shaft a little, and shifted back to neutral. Tried 1st again and with a little fiddling with turning the output shaft while trying to shift it finally went into first! Yay!
Shifted all the way up to fourth and back down to first pretty easily a couple times. So I know first gear works, I'm just not sure why it didnt? There's a couple possibilities, 1, something was jammed and playing around with it got it come loose. 2, it was assemble wrong, even though I didn't see anything obvious I'm not familiar enough with it to say positively that wasn't the case. I don't think I had taken the shifter cam gear and pawl assemblies apart before but I did take the cover and shift shaft out to replace the seal and paint the cover so it's possible, it was almost two years ago now! Lol! And the third possibility is simply that I didn't get the linkage lined up right when I put all back together in the frame. I think that's most likely as the shifter arm was not straight down and Verslagen said it should be back at the beginning of this post. Also, after rechecking my Clymer manual I realized I had the arm on backwards, meaning the linkage was to the outside of the arm where Clymer shows it to the inside. I really didn't think that would make a difference as long as it moved the shift shaft properly but I've been known to be wrong once or twice.
So that's where it's at now. Putting the cover back on tomorrow and my stator should be here tomorrow so I can put the rest of it back together and see if I have any success with it.
Sorry again for the long post but hope it helps someone if they have a similar issue.
Further updates coming once I get everything back together. ;D

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by Dave on 06/27/16 at 04:17:38

The transmission on a motorcycle is not made to shift through the gears when the engine is not running. If you want to shift through the gears with the engine off - you will have to rock the bike back and forth to get the cogs in the gears to line up....this is normal. Even when shifting from Neutral to 1st, you will have to rock the bike or let the clutch back out slightly.....if you pulled the clutch lever in and wait too long to try and shift into 1st (once the primary shaft stops rotating.....the bike will not go into 1st if the cogs are not lined up.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2CybLSrN5Q

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 06/27/16 at 05:40:39

Ok, thanks for the info Dave. I'll keep that in mind when I get her back together.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/27/16 at 08:30:59

Getting up and down through gears sitting still requires slipping the clutch .

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by batman on 07/02/16 at 19:49:58

If the bike's not running I would just push it forward to shift the gears as your starter gears will not like backing!

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/02/16 at 20:06:12

Just sitting on it and rocking gently works.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by mastercarstech on 07/04/16 at 10:02:01

Finally got the bike back together, shifter and linkage set up right, new stator installed, and new air intake/filter setup all installed and switched to Rotella T5 15w 40 oil. Oh, and rejected the carb while everything was apart. Phew, what busy couple weeks! Lol. Fired it up, checked my oil level and was finally able to see through the sight glass properly, it was good to go! Road down the road, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4rd, great! Tried to downshift when coming to a stop, got into 3rd and stuck there. Pulled off the side, played with shifter a bit and finally got it to shift down to 1st. Down the road again, still doesn't want to down shift. Off the road, played with shifter and got it into 1st again. This happened a couple more times till I finally got a feel for it and figured out that if I just lift the shifter slightly before I downshift from 3to 2 or 2 to 1 it shifts much better and pretty consistently. Doesn't seem to be any problem between 4 to 3. So I rode like for the night without too much more shifting problems. I'm thinking I probably need to adjust the shifter linkage some or the shifter return spring is getting week and not returning the shifter completely to the middle position. Now the question is do I need to lengthen the shift linkage or shorten it? I'm thinking since lifting the shifter slightly, which is pulling the shift arm forward,before shifting helps downshift that I should shorten the linkage slightly, which will pull the shift arm forward. I plan to tweak it some today and I'll let you know how it goes.

Title: Re: No first gear after engine partial dissasembly
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/16 at 18:41:23

Upshifting pulls the shift rod, down shift pushes. If it's bent Any it can cause that...