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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Question about timing.
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Message started by thumps on 06/18/16 at 12:49:08

Title: Question about timing.
Post by thumps on 06/18/16 at 12:49:08

So, here goes: I put in a new cam chain, new rear tensioner guide, left the original forward guide in and am using a known good tensioner adjuster I cannibalized from a 1987 Savage...basically I'm wondering if there is a "wrong" way to install the cam with respect to the crankshaft...now I know there is a way where if the camshaft is in wrong, the valves will hit the piston and so forth...what I'm wondering is if the crankshaft position is correct every time the alignment marks are lined up on the stator side? When the cam is not connected to the crank via the chain, each TDC of the piston is identical right? So long as the timing paint blob lines up with the stator cover notch and the piston is at the top of its stroke...yes?

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by thumps on 06/18/16 at 13:11:15

I installed the camshaft with the lobes pointed down into the "bath tub" and made sure to clock the chain so that the camshaft alignment grooves are lined up with the head cover plug hole the right way. I rewired the bike so that the clutch safety switch is deleted and the decomp system is now deleted as well. Now when I tried starting the bike so as to prime the top end, it just turned over real slow, whirrup whirrp, whirrup whirrp, and overheated the battery cables I had hooked up, with a puff of smoke. Is it something I did wrong with the cam chain/camshaft timing or is it a faulty rewire? I just deleted the decomp controller, and deleted the two wires that go to the clutch lever switch, then took the yellow wire with green tracer that comes from the starter switch and connected it to the yellow wire with black tracer on the starter solenoid. I guess I blew it eh?

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by Savageman on 06/18/16 at 13:32:49

If the chain didn't jump a tooth or 2 then it will be the same each revolution. How far did the tensioner pop out when you installed it?

Not sure exactly what you did to the wiring but I would put it back the way it was and check if everything is OK. All the interlocks and relays are wired in series sort of. Hopefully you didn't cook any relay or melt any insulation.

Why remove the decomp system? It's there to save the starter motor. :-?

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/18/16 at 13:35:24

You're looking at a few variables and none are easily removed.
The description of How it's spinning over is very helpful.
A Slightly less than Optimally Charged battery can be enough to keep it from firing.
Be sure that battery is at at least 12.5volts.
Watching the voltage as it's spinning is helpful. I don't remember what the ignition requires to fire the plug While it's working against compression.
Leave the plug in the head. Pull the wire, poke a plug un, ground it, see if it's firing.
I'm hoping you didn't allow crap to fall into the cylinder if you pulled the plug. Need to blow dirt out before you pull it.

If you pull the tank again you don't have to put it back on to start it as long as the carb is full.

Be in neutral, don't wanna load the starter motor more than necessary.
Knowing the voltage At the starter motor would be good.
Once you get past the first compression stroke the motor is spinning the same as a stock unit with the decompression hooked up.

Don't run the starter more than five or six seconds, max.
Put it on prime .
Let it sit a few seconds, don't twist the gas.

Did it smell flooded?

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/16 at 14:16:41

The crank only has 1 TDC, if you got the cam marks aligned with the head at TDC, you're fine. With a new chain, it will line up perfectly. A used chain will be slightly high on the front side.

Did you have the stator cover off?

And you deleted the clutch safety and decomp solenoid.
The starter will stall if it hits the compression stroke before it's had a chance to spin up. If you have a lever, you need to push for the 1st second you push the starter.

Don't overheat the starter, the magnets will pop off and you'll need a new one. If it takes a long time to start (20 seconds) put a new plug in. And you'll need to let the starter cool down for at least 10 minutes.

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by thumps on 06/18/16 at 15:22:47

Ok so that's interesting...with the new chain the cam lay even until I set the tensioner adjuster onto it. Then it lay slightly high on the right or front. So I undid the adjuster and reset the chain to be slightly high on the rear in hopes that it would "even out" once I set the adjuster to it but doing that it still was higher on the rear mark, as if the one tooth I moved it to was too out of place....hmm. Also I did some measuring around with the starter wire disconnected at the starter to see what's doing what and from the igniter solid black wire to the solenoid I'm getting 2V on the negative stud....shouldn't that be 0? Thank you for the responses...all info is helpful.

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by thumps on 06/18/16 at 15:32:59

Ahh. Re-reading the last comment. That sounds exactly like what's happening: the starter is not able to wind-up and stalls...whirr-whirr-whirrup. Like I didn't push the decomp lever soon enough to allow the starter motor to get past that compression.

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/16 at 15:38:26

415D40584546350 wrote:

So long as the timing paint blob lines up with the stator cover notch and the piston is at the top of its stroke...yes?

The paint blob is not the mark, there should be a scribe line under the blob that precisely indicates where TDC is. If you can not find that mark, I would go by the piston position.

Quote:

Now when I tried starting the bike so as to prime the top end, it just turned over real slow, whirrup whirrp, whirrup whirrp, and overheated the battery cables I had hooked up, with a puff of smoke.

Where is this smoke coming from?

Quote:

Also I did some measuring around with the starter wire disconnected at the starter to see what's doing what and from the igniter solid black wire to the solenoid I'm getting 2V on the negative stud....shouldn't that be 0?

I've had similar readings... different wires... People said bad ground... sure enough, a connector was loose.

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by verslagen1 on 06/18/16 at 15:40:38

203C21392427540 wrote:

each one of those whirrs should be a compression stroke.

Title: Re: Question about timing.
Post by thumps on 06/18/16 at 19:14:44

OMFG! So I figured out what I did wrong and it's a super boneheaded move. This whole time I've been using the battery cables that came with my trickle charger to "crank" the motor over key word (or words) being "crank", as in Cold Cranking Amps...and the obvious inability of them trickle charger wires to handle the amperage pulse of my Suzuki starting system...a dynamic, not static use...so my fault. I hooked the battery directly in line with its clamps and Wallah! She's back alive and sounding strong! Hardly even needed to be "hand decompressed" too...I'm running a Big Crank battery...I was just worried that hooking the battery directly to my mocked up wire job would be too hard to disconnect if I needed, so I was jumping the battery with my trickle charger cables, and cooking away the conformal coating on them (the smoke). Live and learn moment...couldn't have done any of this patient process of elimination without this forum...it really helped me slow my roll and met out the real problem... :-/, I kept it too stupidly simple...thanks V et. al.