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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Speed, do we really need it? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1465238389 Message started by old_rider on 06/06/16 at 11:39:49 |
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Title: Speed, do we really need it? Post by old_rider on 06/06/16 at 11:39:49 Had a kind of debate with a fella at the local watering hole about why all of our cars in production today have the 120-160 mph speedos. Anyway, what it boiled down to is that we were discussing (well he got irate a bit, but calmed down) why we have vehicles in production that can go twice or three times as fast as any posted speed limit in the U.S.A. I for one, think that a person should have to actually qualify or test to drive something that can go over 100 mph. (after living in Florida for the last 20+ years) He was for just any idiot should be able to drive as long as they could pass the written test. Needless to say, if you want to put this in the tall tale area go ahead, but I would like to get some of you guys opinion. Why do we have vehicles that go so fast to just drive as a daily vehicle? And why is the "general public" allowed to own them? I guess it is kinda like the weapons arguments I suppose (we got into that too). |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by oldNslow on 06/06/16 at 12:26:40 Quote:
Well. I think I know where you are headed with this, and this isn't really much of an answer, but I don't think I'd get too worked up about the top number on a car's speedo. The speedometer on my 2000cc Hyundai goes up to 140 mph. The only way that car will ever go that fast is if it's pushed out the back of a C-130 at about 10,000 feet. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by verslagen1 on 06/06/16 at 13:23:27 Yes, we do. The question is... how? when? where? Give me a steep hill, on a wide open hiway, I'm a sucker for WOT. A while back, fastest you were allowed to go was 55. Now it's marked 65, in some places 75 and others 80. Who knows what the speed limit will be in the future. Part of your question is more Why are gauges made the way they are. You design a gauge to operate at mid scale for accuracy. You don't get a gauge that stops at 80 cause that's you max speed. You might stop putting numbers on it, but the peg is still at 110 to 160. And the other part of your question, Why are we capable of going that fast when we only need to go to work. Why don't we all ride 50cc scooters? That's the lone savage in the HD group question. Everyone feels better when you know that it's mostly likely that you'll break down together in the same spot. ;D Or perhaps your question is why are we allowed to build 500hp sedans. Certainly we don't need to... unless we intend to tow a big trailer. Or do you wish to have the Efficiency Police Agency pull you over in your Hummer because you are driving by yourself? |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/16 at 13:40:27 Running an engine at 80% of its capacity is about as much as you can do and Still expect it to last long. I've been chased and thrilled that I had enough Ooomph under the hood to help me get away. I've been in Colorado and needed more than what I had to climb mountains and not be crawling and frustrating people, including Me.. The frustrating drivers to me are the Q-tips driving their 120MPH car at 25 in a 45. And, lastly, having someone else Decide what I can have based on Their concept of what I Need is just UnAmerican. Next stop, Second Amendment. Medical doctors have plenty of evidence that sound exceeding a certain decibel level harm the ears. Concerts are Loud. Should ( one of the most dangerous words in the English language ) we simply not Allow it to be turned up to 11? Can I buy one for my home? Recommended reading Anything on Libertarianism. No, society does Not owe you hearing aids because you're deaf from listening to music cranked up to 11. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by stewmills on 06/06/16 at 13:45:27 I never use a speedometer, I just lean over and look closely at the front wheel and get a good idea of how fast I'm going and that's good enough for me. Here's how I do it; |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Dave on 06/06/16 at 13:53:52 The most fun I have on my Savage is in the 30 - 60 mph range, on a suitably twisty road. I do believe it is wrong for anybody to be able to walk into a motorcycle dealer and buy a Hayabusa as their fist bike. But......it is a "free county" - I guess! :-? |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by gizzo on 06/06/16 at 14:01:13 How about banning smoking, fatty foods, sugar, falling out of aeroplanes, skiing, childbirth, boxing, firearms and all the other unsafe things? I love speed now and again. Fastest I been on a bike is 270kph and it was hilarious and no risk to others. Right time, right place. However, I hear what your saying. I'd like to see a tiered licence system where one had to earn the right to drive a performance car. To keep the uninterested and clueless from powerful vehicles. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/16 at 14:13:41 If my brain is right, that is somewhere around 212MPH. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Doug B on 06/06/16 at 14:17:54 I'm more in the "Dave" group. I have(had) the most fun riding the S40 in the 35 - 55 mph range. A lot of back roads/farm access roads(paved), and the like are great. A good deal of them in my area are posted at 50mph - just right for me. I did have a modified 70 Plymouth Roadrunner back in the day. It had a 150mph speedo, and I had it to 142 on a wide open empty freeway once(over 30 years ago). No more of that for this kid. :'( :'( |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Serowbot on 06/06/16 at 15:06:21 I'm with ya' ol' rider,... Dave too... Modern cars are so insulated and smooth nowadays... 90mph feels like walking... That's a dangerous illusion... :-? |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/16 at 15:30:11 Where I had Fun has no bearing on the freedom to Have what someone else wants. I wonder how many people are injured trying to emulate the super quick veggie slicing chef on TV. Ban cooking shows! The Nanny State Seriously needs to go away. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by badwolf on 06/06/16 at 15:54:09 The definition of optimism is a 140MPH speedo in a Mini Cooper! Like above you would need a C130. I think the range on most speedos is set by the marketing dept. Eye candy to sell the car, or bike and to impress whose who don't know any better. Down here in S. Fla the troopers give out 100mph+ tickets on the turnpike about 4 or 5 times a week. And west of me there is a 4 lane divided hwy with a limit of 60. Weekends the sportbikes run that road at 120 - 140 plus. A trooper told me they can't do anything when there alone, and a major enforcement group would stand out so no one would speed. They know stop sticks would just kill a biker. Believe me, it is NOT FUN to be going 60 and have 2 bikes come out of nowhere and pass you within touching distance on the shoulder at 140! Watching packs doing wheelies 50 - 60 mph faster than the traffic they are weaving thru will turn most people into bike haters. I will go into a place some of you won't like by saying anyone going over 100 mph in normal traffic should be treated like a DUI. Take his license on the spot, impound the bike as evidence, bracelets and a overnight stay to go to court. Then go to court to TRY to get your license back! When they make me King of the world THINGS WILL CHANGE! |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by gizzo on 06/06/16 at 16:20:40 that's how it is here: anything over about 90mph is instant loss of licence, car impoundment and maybe a trip to the big house for a little while. Additionally, learner and probationary licence owners aren't allowed to drive turbo or V8 cars anymore, and restircted to motorbikes 660cc or less and power to weight not exceeding 150kw/tonne. Still, we will misbehave when Big Mother is not watching. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by badwolf on 06/06/16 at 16:26:28 gizzo, Funny thats not how the Mad Max movies show it |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by KennyG on 06/06/16 at 17:43:45 I am thinking in Texas anything over 100 MPH is a felony, if not here it is somewhere nearby. In Central Pennsylvania RT 222 is called the Pennsylvania Dutch Autobon because of the frequent arrests in the 140 MPH range. The only place I ever went crazy with speed on public roads is The Norman Wood Bridge linking Southern York County to Southern Lancaster County Pennsylvania. There is no cross traffic to contend with and you can see from one end of the bridge to other. I have only done it when I was the only one in sight. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by oldNslow on 06/06/16 at 18:38:14 Quote:
Wow! I thought Florida was full of geezers ! Them old Farts must be crazy ridin' like that. :D |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Kris01 on 06/06/16 at 18:39:17 Speedometers used to be federally mandated to 85 mph. What changed? My Mazda6 has a 160 mph speedometer. I don't think it could even touch 160. A friend of mine was stopped for speeding on his 600 Ninja. The cop asked him how fast it would go and he told him every bit of 65 mph! ;D |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by badwolf on 06/06/16 at 18:59:02 Yep, Geezers, and the young that think they're immortal. Most everybody is packin' thou we take road rage seriously. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by gizzo on 06/06/16 at 19:32:27 4341524C525048414952200 wrote:
See, there you go. Speeding is not ok and should be persecuted, to someone who is not interested in going fast. But that same person is totally happy to live in a gun crazed community where you don't know who is packing and could shoot you dead, because that person is a firearms enthusiast. Nothing gets people going like other people imposing their values on others. I'd rather take my chances with the road warriors. Anyway, I just reread the title of this thread. No, we don't need it. But it's nice to have the option. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/06/16 at 19:51:01 http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/seemotorcycle.asp Oooopsies... Sometimes the penalty for stupid is more than what the law dictates. Sadly, stupid at the voting booth throttle can impact the lives of others. Take YOUR chances,, not mine. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by oldNslow on 06/06/16 at 20:05:37 Quote:
Sadly, some of those youngsters don't make it to geezerhood. We have had three fatal motorcycle crashes here in Rochester in the past four days. All three riders were in their early twenties, all three on sport bikes, and , according to the LEO investigators, all three accidents involved "excessive speed and inattention." One young man ran a red light at an inappropriate rate of speed and Tee Boned a car making a left turn. The car had a green arrow. Died at the scene. Another was on a four lane road in a commercial area with a 45mph limit. That particular stretch of road is lined with car dealers, strip malls , restaurants etc. Stop lights at every cross street. He ran into the back of a truck turning into a driveway. The bike burst into flames on impact. Rider died right there. Witnesses - this happened just before noon in a very busy part of town, so there were a lot of them - said it looked and sounded like he was going 100 mph. I'm pretty sure that's an exaggeration, but he was obviously going much too fast. The third happened in the middle of the night on a curve in a residential neighborhood. That rider went off the road, hit a stone culvert under a driveway, and was thrown from the bike. That motorcycle also burned. The rider was thrown so far by the impact that it took the responders 45 minutes to locate his body in the dark. The local news for the past couple of days has been interviewing family members and friends, talking to folks who knew these kids. The picture they paint is of three pretty ordinary young men from fairly typical families, not hooligans or lunatics. Yet all three of them were indisputably killed as a result of their own actions. There really isn't any doubt as to how these three crashes happened. I don't really know what to take away from this except to say that the power and speed of a motorcycle can be very seductive. It's a h*ll of a lot of fun to go fast on a bike, even a bike that that isn't particularly quick compared to some of the hyperbikes that are out there. That's at least a part of why most of us ride, I think. Even at my age - and I am definitely old enough to know better - I sometimes succumb to temptation. But when we overestimate our abilities, and exceed them, bad sh+t can, and most likely will, happen. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by MMRanch on 06/06/16 at 20:17:28 270 KMH * .6 = 162 MPH .... STILL PLENTY FAST !! :o One of my brothers was cruising his Honda V-65 at 130 + (2 years ago) in Georgia in a 65 mph zone . Well , he met a trooper on the other side who immediately hit the Blue lights . brother pulls over and waits for trooper to catch-up . Georgia has a thing call a "Super-Speeder" fine ... its where they tack on an extra $300.oo to whatever the normal fine is and double the points against your licences . Personally I really try not to go over "9 mph - over " the posted limit . ::) Most of the time I call 10% over "FAST ENOUGH" ;) |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by KennyG on 06/06/16 at 20:29:46 Young guys in accidents late at night makes me wonder how much alcohol played a part in the accident. I have to admit when I was young I did my share of bar hopping on a motorcycle and had the Luck O' The Irish on my side. Now I wouldn't dream of having a beer on the days that I ride. If one lives long enough somehow they develop a little wisdom. Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by badwolf on 06/06/16 at 20:44:46 The irony is that 4 lane road goes right by a racetrack. Twice a week you can pay $15 and run all night long on the drag strip. Monthly on the road course. With no Lincolins or wild hogs in the way. Bikers have died racing on a road within hearing distance of a real race track! |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Paladin. on 06/06/16 at 20:45:19 1962, Chicago to Detroit, mom sleeping in the back seat, sister sleeping shotgun, I eased the speed up. and up. got it to an indicated 100 mph which ain't bad for a 225cid slant-six. and a Caddy flew past will over 20 mph over. No matter how fast you can go, someone will be able to go faster. So why bother? My most fun car was a '61 Bugeye -- 948cc 43bhp 80" wheelbase 137" long 53" wide. Top speed, under 85 mph. http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/AHFrogeyeSprite.jpg/280px-AHFrogeyeSprite.jpg Various vehicles over the years, cars, trucks, motorcycles. The fastest motorcycle would have been the Suzuki GS450E, biggest was the Savage, both did 85mph+ which was fast enough for me. Age, couldn't swing over a saddle, got a Vespa 150 -- 65 mph top which was still enough to take trips on the Interstates. Losing my touch, not watching everything, missed a groove and dropped to the left, stopped too quick in a curve and dropped to the right (dislocated shoulder / broken ribs) and I'm back into a cage. But I still don't need the speed. Now have a Fortwo -- 999cc 70bhp 73.5" wheelbase 106" long 61" wide. Should be able to do 90mph, does 80+ indicated just fine. http://www.andruschak.net/dsl/Paladin/images/65andUp/Mike-Zaporog-III.jpg I do not need speed. Many others want more. My old tagline was "A 250 can do it. A 650 makes it fun." There is NO law against being stupid. My doctor/nurses/etc. keep asking "do your exercise?" I answer "Not if I can avoid it." I should weight 160 pounds. I would like to weigh 180 pounds. I am about 205 pounds. Some say I am stupid. I don't care! I enjoy my cooking. If others want to speed, doesn't bother me. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/07/16 at 03:32:40 I totally appreciate a low power car or bike. It takes skill to get the speed through a corner. Horsepower covers up bad driving, or, reveals it,, when it is just more than the driver can handle. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Art Webb on 06/07/16 at 07:33:51 back when we were primitive hunter gatherers, we had dangerous animals to weed out the weak when we were all farmers, we had disease to cull the herd now that we have killed or run off all the dangerous animals, and cured most illnesses, we have fast cars / bikes to weed out the stupid sadly, some of the stupid take the smart with them 'safe speed' is situational I went from Austin to Coushatta running 90 MPH in a Police Package Caprice, and was never in any danger (long straight highway) the same 90+ would be suicide on some of the roads I ride as for why the car or bike needs to be able to go 120 because then it is very under stressed at 75, and will last longer before it is worn out My Ninja 500 would easily run 100mph all day long, and topped at an indicated 130, but mostly I ran 70-80 on the slab, It was a very relaxing 70-80 My Rebel topped at 65-75, and riding on the slab could sometimes be white knuckle inducing even pushing a stock Savage at 70+ all the time will decrease it's life expectancy I like my cars to last |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by old_rider on 06/08/16 at 04:13:08 The reason the conversation came about is that I live on one of those 4 lane roads that a LOT of people use twice a day, going to work and going home. This four lane has housing and businesses the whole length for about 35 miles. EVERY DAY (and I know cause i'm at home) there are sirens going off about 6am to 9am and then at 3:30pm to 6pm The problem is that folks are in a hurry to get to work in the morning and in a hurry to get home at night, the sad thing is, some don't make it. And it is not always those folks that do the wreckless driving that get hurt. I watched a car attempt to cross the southbound lanes from a center turn lane and get T boned so hard it separated the engine and transmission from the car (ended up in the median). The person in the "fast lane" was doing about 95-110 (or so it was estimated), and that was in a 55mph zone. I agree about the need for torque power for towing and 90 mile an hour for passing on interstates, but man...100mph in a 45 or 55mph zone? Even the military folks will tell you, the average speed for the stretch I live on is about 65-70mph, and it is marked 45-55mph.(I go about 5 over marked at times because people are literally 1/2 a car length behind you) The highway i'm referring to is locally called "Bloody 98" and is always in the local news for accidents because it is the ONLY road along the gulf coast in the panhandle from Pensacola to Panama City. And from Pensacola to Destin is where most of the real danger is.... guess where I live? Well, I guess it is me getting older but.... I personally would like to see a transmitter that would limit speeds to posted, unless passing (maybe a button that would let you go over 15 for a few seconds). Would that be a "nanny state" or "liberal" law.... yeah probably, would it save lives.... I would step out on a limb and say yes. Will it ever happen...no.... was just a discussion. But I would still like to see some special "driving qualification" test for people before they could drive a vehicle that can do above 100mph. And yet another more stringent one for vehicles that can to 150mph and above.(don't the European countries have a law limiting young folks cc's?) Tons of folks would still pass it, even though the excess speed is not needed. But it would save a few lives.... and make me happy, and make me feel just a tad safer when I hit the road :) Edit: (added pic) http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b471/Orphistle/IMAG0120.jpg |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/16 at 05:50:17 I lived on Hwy. 69,North of Lindale Texas, on that ten or twelve mile stretch to Mineola, that little two lane road was the deadliest stretch of road around. Eighteen wheelers roared, hurried people flew, and people died. One day, as we were leaving home there was a Suburban that had rolled in the road just as we got out of the driveway. We were first on the scene. Even though it was only a coupla hundred feet from the house, we didn't hear it because it's just so noisy from the traffic. How and why it had cleared and nobody else had stopped, IDK.. The woman was bringing her eighth grade girl home from gymnastics. When the car came down it smashed the girls head on the pavement so hard that her face was flattened on the right side. I had to get in and turn it off. I was afraid of fire and I looked at the girl. I didn't sleep through a night for three months. How EMTs and doctors DO it, I don't know, but I sure respect them for it. It's now a four lane, and much safer. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Dave on 06/08/16 at 05:57:46 Our office manager arrived this morning, and immediately came to my office to tell me that on her way to work, she was on KY 237 which is a very busy local highway crowded with rush hour folks each morning......she was in the right lane and a sport bike rider wheelied past her in the left lane - open exhaust blaring away! I explained that it most likely won't happen again.....he won't live long enough! |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by badwolf on 06/08/16 at 06:10:48 I always have said commuters aren't driving, THEY ARE LATE! I guess that supersedes all laws, conman sense, and courtesy. I'M LATE! I'M LATE! I'M LATE! |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Art Webb on 06/08/16 at 06:55:44 484B43554E434255270 wrote:
The european graduated liscensing system is for motos only, AFAIK, not cars Yep, your suggestion would lower the number of accidents, for sure Know what would lower it even more? ban privately owned vehicles (don't laugh, some on the left have already proposed it) then we can all ride mass transit, or ride bicicles, or walk, and we'd really be safe, ain't that a grand idea? and yup. badwolf nailed it I'M Late! or for some kids I'm FAST! |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/08/16 at 07:11:52 Taking freedom away for your own good is the game. Everyone stay home. A government worker will be by soon to bring you your food for today. That is all. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Serowbot on 06/08/16 at 07:42:41 The more I ride over 70mph... the more I like 50mph... :-? |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by welshpete on 06/08/16 at 13:26:57 speed, huh, what is it good for.... |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Kris01 on 06/08/16 at 19:23:34 I saw 2 idiots run a red light from opposite directions and hit each other (one of them turned left in front of the other one). It was raining and I guess they were trying to save a few seconds. It wasn't a bad wreck, just a STUPID one! No one was hurt. Instead of saving a few minutes, they were delayed a few hours! Serves 'em right!!! |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Art Webb on 06/09/16 at 07:57:16 were they speeding? |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Kris01 on 06/09/16 at 16:02:11 Speeding to beat the red light in the rain. Didn't work out too well for either of them. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Steve H on 06/09/16 at 21:32:11 In SC if you're going more than 20 over, it's considered reckless driving, you get to go to jail, car gets impounded, license is suspended until your hearing and may or may not be returned to you after the hearing. They do seem to realize that even though the speed limit is lower, there are times when you can operate a vehicle at that speed and be completely safe depending on traffic density, weather conditions, vehicle condition, etc. Sometimes the judge will give the license back and fine you for speeding if that is one of those conditions. More common is 6 month suspension, have to take traffic course before getting license back, 4 years of special high-risk insurance(very expensive), large fines. It might cost $5,000 or so for going 80 in a 55 not counting the insurance rate increase. We don't see a tremendous number of really high speed tickets being issued. We have the LATE'ers. (I'm late and going to pass everybody to get to the light 20 sec. before they do kind) They're going usually about 10 over, eating, putting on makeup, talking on the phone, etc., generally not paying attention and cause many, many wrecks. We now have an aggressive driving ticket classification for those folks that carries some high fines and possible loss of license. In the last couple years, I've seen the number of otherwise car driving people on mopeds skyrocket. Seems like some of the enforcement might be doing the trick. They're getting very tough on DUI and some of the other things that were a fine that can now lose your license are getting many of the worst off the road. I have never been involved in a wreck that was my fault. I am a safe, cautious, sane driver. I have been rear-ended a couple times by some of those LATE'ers. If you don't have time to get there safely, leave earlier or be late. Free and unrestricted travel is according to SCOTUS a constitutionally protected right. Endangering someone else while doing so is not. I hate to see all the people getting hurt. If there were a way the one that can't drive could be hurt and the innocent not, I'd say let them do it. I'm all for letting attrition take out the ones that can't drive. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Art Webb on 06/10/16 at 07:23:38 063F243E7D7C4D0 wrote:
Well at least they were both apparently idiots, so no innocents injured |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by gizzo on 06/10/16 at 08:03:56 Been raining a lot here lately so of course heaps of numpties getting their jollies spinnning their wheels in their shitbox cars that couldn't otherwise. Last night I heard one around the corner from my work, wheels spinnning until they hooked up and shot him into a stobie pole. Priceless. So, you don't need to speed to make yourself look silly ;D. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Dave on 06/10/16 at 09:45:05 617B7F7D7C42736066607B767577120 wrote:
No....but it helps you to get there quicker! Last night I made my second attempt at a 0-60 time using my Speedhut GPS speedometer.....it took 5.02 seconds. I have the double Kawasaki pulley setup that makes it geared a bit high, and I was not horribly aggressive about the launch.....with practice I will be able to get under 5 seconds. (I don't need it....but it was fun to try). |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by jcstokes on 06/10/16 at 14:38:22 Yes we need speed, in the right place and time. A controlled circuit, a traffic free road, twisty or otherwise. We don't really need it in built up urban/suburban areas, congested motorways/freeways, or wet roads. We need to exercise some judgement when using it, and let's face it most Savage/S40's will definitely be working hard at 75 mph plus and very hard at 80 plus. As others have pointed out we probably shouldn't do it where we know the village MOPP are active. |
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Title: Re: Speed, do we really need it? Post by Gus on 06/12/16 at 09:46:19 Where we live South Dakota) county hiways are 55, state hiways are 65 and interstates are 80 :o. I rarely drive or ride the interstate. I agree with the HP here; they say 80 is to fast. They will ticket anyone going 81 I've heard. I guess I'm of a mind that anyone should be able to kill themselves in a vehicle if they so choose; it's a free country, right! Problem is; innocent people get killed too! Not sure What the answer is so I just check out by driving state hiways mostly. We live 13 miles east of the I-29 corridor and I rarely use it unless imI'm headed west out of state. |
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