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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> It's SUZUKI's fault ... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1463793989 Message started by DesertRat on 05/20/16 at 18:26:29 |
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Title: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/20/16 at 18:26:29 cruising around looking for build parts, I know a majority of the parts I need are interchangeable between models and years dating back to the 70's up to current years, except whole engines and other model specific crapola ... I found a part I needed ... checked the listing and it stated: Quote:
me :o ... what the #eLL ... so I go on a hunt on other forums, and sure enough it is so common that the responses to posters asking about it are given almost a boilerplate template response, same as on here ... WTH Suzuki ... even on all the new S-series and M-series bikes ... ??? that CAM CHAIN IS A P.O.S. .... find a new vendor ... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/16 at 08:49:17 Yeah, their fault. Yeah, early chains did Seem to run longer, there could be a materials quality issue, or, maybe what we were seeing was the difference between trip lengths, or, the tensioner springs. I don't know if we ever got sufficient feedback on the cam chain special order to know if it ran longer. I Do believe the tensioner is a major player in the chain life. The pawl catching when it cools down seems to be the killer. The next warm up is stressing that chain. Without the pawl, at rpm, there is nothing but the guides to control the chains desire to be a circle. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by Serowbot on 05/21/16 at 08:52:25 Try other brands,... Cam chains do wear out. Honda's, Kawa's, Yammer's,... any bike with a cam chain... Vac pet's too... :P Stuff happens... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/16 at 09:16:42 Well, duuh, stuff wears out. When we see six thousand miles and the tensioner is approaching the end of safe travel and someone else is seeing twenty plus thousand, it might be time to look at why the variation. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/21/16 at 10:26:06 I wasn't looking for an immortal chain ... when this ISSUE runs across all Suzuki makes and models, then it's time to file a class action claim ... as Justin pointed out, there's a HUGE discrepancy in quality with these cam chains, some gone in under 3k others with 20k+ ... it's is OBVIOUS there's a QC issue ... just not enough bike bandits are willing to get behind a class action to force Suzuki's hand and fix these NO CHARGE with a longer lasting cam chain ... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/16 at 11:36:10 Well, it's Easy to point to the mileage differences and say QC. But the variables remain. Trip length, oils, riding styles, and they did change the spring at some point. Weaker/stronger, IDK. And, to what effect? IDK. Can we not reasonably assume the quality of the chain is less than it was years ago? Based on everything else I've seen, I'd say yes. But to lay it all on the chain without actually studying it? I can't do that. For all I know, some of the short life chains were in engines that sat for a long time and the oil inside the chain dripped down, causing some run time with insufficient oil in the pins and plates that make the chain. Yes, I Do look at problems with an open mind. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by Ruttly on 05/21/16 at 12:09:17 These problems happen when they try building a low maintenance engine , cause that's what people want ! But you still have to adjust the valves and cam chain should have a manual adjuster , like the yamaha sr500 just one more simple step in the tune up process. It just shows you that Suzuki considers the savage a disposable motorcycle. Yes Suzuki has failed to right this problem because they don't care as long as it will make it a little beyond the warranty period. That's why the engine is not used in racing,the sr500 with a bearing set up on cam and a manual cam chain adjuster is built for a long life and able to handle much more modification. Yes I say Suzuki has failed us !!! |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/16 at 12:30:18 Yes, the oil pump, cam sitting in the head, no inserts, CCT , with a new chain, is Way too extended, the pawl grabs a new tooth way too easily, and what would it take to address these issues? I'm not an engineer, I don't know, but Ohhh boy, what a different beast to have in the stable.. if only they would. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by Ruttly on 05/21/16 at 14:13:41 Yes you are correct , but I'm still going to deal with it , just something you need to monitor all to often. One of the guys has a great idea of install a sight glass on that side cover so it would be just like checking the oil level just at a glance. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by Ruttly on 05/21/16 at 14:33:27 Fewer teeth and about double the width of each tooth would do it . I know Versy can do it I'm sure he can! Back when I worked on trucks had similar problem with auto adjust clutches when they backed into loading docks to hard they would loose all the clutch pedal , told my sales rep what they needed to do! They went to fewer wider taller teeth and their problem is gone , only took a dumb wrench to figure it out !!! |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/21/16 at 15:02:27 so throw a filler weld in every other tooth and sand/file/machine smooth? the other issue is that it is across ALL their cruiser models, just read other forums and every single one has 1000's of posts all with this same cam chain issue ... it's a nightmare for owners ... and a money maker for Suzuki ... planned obsolescence = more service dollars for the stealership/factory ... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by verslagen1 on 05/21/16 at 15:26:01 sure I can do it, give $2000 and your bike for 8 weeks to tear down the engine, put in a manual adjuster that you can adjust from the outside. 8-) |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/21/16 at 16:10:57 no way ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I'm still waiting for the "On Vacation" sign to be flipped so I can get this new cam adjuster modded, no way am I sending you ANOTHER project ;) |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by verslagen1 on 05/21/16 at 16:17:43 where is this "vacation sign" that you keep talking about? |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/21/16 at 16:42:23 On his cap....... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/21/16 at 18:56:25 475443425D5056545F00310 wrote:
HERE - http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338489898/45#45 and HERE - http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338489898/54#54 |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by verslagen1 on 05/21/16 at 19:36:00 I get it, as long as I'm not working for you... directly, I'm on vacation. Are you sure it's "no sh!t, no shinola, no service" ? |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/21/16 at 19:42:40 it was a joke Verslagen ... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by verslagen1 on 05/21/16 at 20:04:45 ha ha, made you slap your forehead. ;D |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by LANCER on 05/22/16 at 03:18:02 Have ya'll been drinking the stuff out-a-of a mason jar ? |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/22/16 at 11:03:03 nope, but this stuff and burnt fork oil ain't too far from it ... http://https://s3.amazonaws.com/cesco-content/unilog/Batch10/000939/15754-ProductImageURL.jpg |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/16 at 13:32:06 Mineral or Petroleum Oils A non petroleum oil product .... Uh huhh,, I get it.. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by LANCER on 05/22/16 at 15:09:35 So take some Mystic Metal Mover, add some pineapple and orange juice, a wedge of lime and Wallay ! ! The drink of the Islands !!! |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by Kris01 on 05/22/16 at 19:50:27 I'll stick with a Pina Colada! |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by LANCER on 05/23/16 at 04:42:00 I do enjoy some Malibu coconut rum with some diet island juices in the late afternoon/evening time. Yep, just 1. 8-) |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/23/16 at 10:09:21 So, theory has it, the pawl catches a tooth after a ride. Next warm up damages the chain. I think a wimpy spring would be less likely to catch the tooth so early. Any kind of compressible material built Into the tensioner arm, to allow the chain some room even after the pawl snags a tooth. This is a stiff segment. And, if a disconnect could be built in, disengaging the pawl at the end of the ride. Be cool to be able to pull the tensioner off of the chain a tad. In short, I think a Wimpy spring inside the tensioner and some compressible material to make it Not a solid rod once a tooth engages. That could happen in the mount or where the tensioner starts transitioning to where it attaches to the guide. I think the mount makes sense for two reasons, easier and it could be done so as to move the tube of the tensioner closer to the chain, allowing the tensioner to Not be so extended with a new chain on. The maximum movement in this area could be designed to no more than 1/8" to accomplish what I am envisioning. The first thing I would want to see in testing would be what our young intrepid batman has done. Second, replace the tensioner spring with a soft enough spring to not be able to get into a new slot so quickly. See what that does. If it's good enough, call it done. If not, then look at a way to mod the mount end of the tensioner and put a spring in that is stiff, but limit the travel. From there, it gets tricky, electrical stuff, relay/ solenoid to disengage the pawl while the bike cools. And how much OOOMPH would That take? And how would it stay there, while it cooled? And how does it all get put right before you start i t again? Yeah, tricky. Maybe a remote operated electrical/manual adjustment. Push a button, engaging a solenoid, spinning the adjuster. Like the drum brakes.. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/23/16 at 12:22:10 justin, you could try a cam tensioner spring MOD. just run the spring through several high heat cool down cycles and it should be enough to weaken the spring. Oh wait, isn't that what's happening to our cam chain, which is supposed to be rated for high heat and loads ... would this create a weak spring already? How is the spring not failing BEFORE the cam chain? It's under the same heat cool cycles as the chain ... |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by DesertRat on 05/23/16 at 12:27:54 on the girly cocktail side - mix Cruzan BANANA rum and CocaCola = tastes just like Double Bubble bubble gum http://thinkofthat.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/esq-dubble-bubble-0811-lg.jpg the girls like it ;) |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/23/16 at 12:45:16 0C2D3B2D3A3C1A293C480 wrote:
It's not heat wrecking the chain. It's the thermal expansion making the distance between cam and crank centers changing, pulling the chain tight in a warm up cycle, relaxing when it cools, allowing the spring to drive the tensioner out, giving the pawl a new tooth to grab, removing the slack from the chain, then, the next warm up stretches and wears the pin/plate unions. And yes, heating a few coils of the spring would be a potential help. Getting That right would just be luck. Hardware stores sell springs. Using more than one of different strength could possibly be a step. Just hafta look at it, feel of it, play with it. This could be a Less is more moment. |
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Title: Re: It's SUZUKI's fault ... Post by Dave on 05/23/16 at 13:15:49 072630263137112237430 wrote:
The spring sees very little load.....the pawl is what bears the force that the chain guide imposes once the engine has expanded and grown in size. Aluminum has a coefficient of expansion of around 13 micro inch/inch/degreeF...while it is around 7 for steel. So the aluminum case, cylinder and head grows 85% more than the steel chain as things get warm, and to make it even worse - I suspect the cylinder and head get hotter than the cam chain. |
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