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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 2000 Savage clanking noise /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1462709066 Message started by kojones on 05/08/16 at 05:04:22 |
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Title: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/08/16 at 05:04:22 Hello everyone and greetings from Finland! I bought a 48000 km driven terribly bobberized Savage last December and I've been restoring it to closer to it's original form. There was a clanking noise when I bought it, and it still has. Comes and goes with the use of the throttle and it's really hard to say where it comes from, tried to locate it with a screwdriver method and later with a stethoscope. I have checked the cam chain tensioner, only 13mm out. I've also lifted the head cover: Cam, rockers and bearing journals seemed to be in good condition, altough the head cover wasn't properly installed, two snapped bolts were glued in place and one locating dovel was missing >:( And no sealant in the head cap ;) Valve clearances are well adjusted and they seem to stay the same after a test run. I'm going to check the flywheel nut as soon as I get the puller. Any other suggestions where this sound might come from? EDITED 3/5/17: things I've checked or replaced so far: -Camshaft journals (in factory specs) -New camshaft -Lifters are fine -New O/S Wiseco piston (old was 0,5mm under wear limits at the skirt) -Crankshaft and con rod bearings felt fine -New valves & seals (one was bent) -Flywheel nut (couldn't get it open, so I think it's tight enough) -Oil pump works & turned the sprocket the right way around -Clutch (in factory specs) -Tensioner out 13mm, not hitting the cover Any suggestions? Intermittent tapping, comes back and goes away with throttle, quite sure it comes from just below the cylinder out front. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/08/16 at 05:05:14 A recording of the noise: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4710397/%C3%84%C3%A4ni.m4a |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Struch on 05/08/16 at 06:33:03 welcome! did you change the oil? if yes witch oil did you put in the bike? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/08/16 at 08:16:16 6F484E495F543C0 wrote:
Yes, and the filter too. 15W-50 synthetic, since it was on discount. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Struch on 05/08/16 at 08:19:41 cool you need to check out Rotella T oil and treads about that! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/08/16 at 08:28:28 50 might be a bit thick. Any friction modifiers will cause clutch problems. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/08/16 at 09:33:43 3F2026213C3B0A3A0A32202C67550 wrote:
OK, it's M/C oil and suitable for wet clutches so I hope there will be no problem with the clutch, but we'll see when I get on the road. That sound also seems to appear more frequently with a warm engine, so I'm not sure it's the oil? Have to check the Rotella T, I think it's a bit difficult to find in Europe, but seems like the Delvac MX is very popular choice too. Thanks for your input! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/08/16 at 13:45:27 What do you think, is it safe for the bike to put on the first gear and step on the rear brake when opening and the tightening the alternator rotor bolt and flywheel nut? I'm going to use an impact wrench. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/08/16 at 17:07:51 797D787D7C7761120 wrote:
I wouldn't use an impact wrench.....you can't know how much torque is on the nut when you stop? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/09/16 at 04:18:11 Actually you can get quite close to a desired tightness if you have a good impact wrench and know it's habits ;) Seems that the tightening torque of the nut and the bolt is approx. 3 times the maximum torque of the engine, so I quess I just have to go and buy a 36mm offset wrench. Unfortunately they're quite expensive. I've managed to keep a student friendly budget with this bike, albeit I had to buy new tires and paint it. Even the brake rotor is DIY 8-) |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/09/16 at 04:33:30 3D393C39383325560 wrote:
OK.........Good luck with that! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/09/16 at 05:39:16 2723262322293F4C0 wrote:
Why ask a question if you have already predetermined your answer? Anyway...while the discussion about the type & brand of oil is useless, the subject of the oil change is notable. Did you inspect the oil and the filter for any FOD? If something is making noise, its probably also making metal. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/09/16 at 07:01:44 565C58525950545D030501310 wrote:
Why ask a question if you have already predetermined your answer? Anyway...while the discussion about the type & brand of oil is useless, the subject of the oil change is notable. Did you inspect the oil and the filter for any FOD? If something is making noise, its probably also making metal. [/quote] Yes, there was magnetic and aluminium metal flakes in the filter but we haven't been able to determine their origin. I have no clue how long the filter has been there, so hard to say are they result of the noise. And actually I asked about using the bikes transmission and brakes as an resisting force, the use of an impact wrench has nothing to do with that, altough the impact might be a bit hard to gear wheel tooth. :-[ But since the required tightening torque is so much bigger than the engines output torque I think I'm not going to tighten or loosen them that way. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/09/16 at 07:11:07 I don't have a problem with you using the transmission/brakes and an impact to loosen the nuts on the crank. It also helps to take a piece of hardwood and shove it in the primary gears to help keep things from rotating......or it is pretty darn easy to make a flywheel holder from scrap angle iron - there are two threaded holes in the flywheel that are used for the factory holder. I do believe it is important to use a proper torque wrench for tightening any of the critical engine parts (crankshaft nuts, clutch nut, countershaft nut, head studs). I can't imagine a loose flywheel would make any metal bits in the oil. My flywheel nut came loose when my bike had about 400 miles on it - and by 1,200 miles it was like a death rattle. It started out as a tick, and I did not take the engine apart as the sound was so minor I didn't know what it was and felt I couldn't find the source even if I took things apart and looked......at the end it was deafening at idle, and as the revs increased the sound got less loud.....and at 60 mph the bike sounded pretty normal. (The engine pulses smooth out at higher rpm and the flywheel bangs less - while the noise at idle was very loud). |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/09/16 at 07:47:26 Have you checked your front pulley ? If not torqued to 100 psi ,it could be moving on the shaft ,rubbing the side cover . The noise can be intermittent on throttle , going or slowing. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/09/16 at 08:06:14 sorry went back listened to your recording, I think you may have your valves set to tight, I would reset .(loose is ok ,tight causes burnt valves)rotate engine the sane as the wheels ,some books have it backward I had this happen, had same sounds ,rechecked ,(to tight),reset to .005,good to go! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/10/16 at 09:46:36 Don't mean to "Hijack this" but sounds to me as if there isn't any oil getting to the top end. You mentioned someone did a botched top end job. May be they plugged up the oil galley with silicone or crud? Could also be the upper connecting rod bearing is beat out... |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/10/16 at 10:51:30 383B2E373B346E625A0 wrote:
Hi, I've tried looser and tighter clearances with no change in the sound, and they are now spot on .10mm. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/10/16 at 11:05:29 5E6C7B6C6A68606C63383B0D0 wrote:
I have to check the oil pressure, is there a bolt on the head cover that's suitable for that? I also had an opinion that it might be a snapped piston ring, but I kinda hope that I won't have to open up the cylinder or split up the lower engine, albeit the DR650 piston set at Partzilla isn't that expensive. I got a 36mm wrench for cheap, tomorrow I'm going to remove the magneto rotor and see what's up with the nut ;) Thanks to all for your responses! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/10/16 at 11:11:04 The factory DR650 piston kit really isn't cutting edge for the Savage....unless you are talking about the Wiseco piston made to fit the DR650. It will require a bore as the smallest they made for he DR is 95mm, and the Savage is 94mm. If you cylinder is good - you would be better off with this: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1455470509 If you didn't have cam or rocker wear when you had your head off, chances are your oil flow is fine. Take the front valve inspection cover off....if the parts inside are oily - you are getting oil up there. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/10/16 at 11:27:31 12292433222E353328202D32410 wrote:
There has been oil every time I've checked and the cam and rockers were fine, but it might be that they've been replaced with the cam chain as the chain is clearly quite new as the tensioner isn't out that much. Good to know that the OEM DR650 piston won't fit, surprisingly the Wisecos don't cost that much either. By the way, the bike hasn't been driven or run in two years, might that have any affect to the noise? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/10/16 at 11:40:12 If it's not "No Oil' in the top end or the top con rod bearing it could be the valves hitting the top of the piston if the valve timing is out by a stretched timing chain. Sounds pretty solid of a knock and you mentioned metal flakes in the oil filter? Not a good sign either. Use a stethoscope to pinpoint were that nasty knock is coming from. Seemed to occur when you revved up the engine and stay. I would check the cam lobes and rockers for galling and wear due to no oil up there. And while the top end is off check the valve timing. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/10/16 at 11:57:56 The cam chain cannot stretch far enough to let the valves hit the head - but he did say the head cover was off from a previous owner, and it would not hurt to check the timing to confirm the previous owner didn't get the chain installed incorrectly if they had the cam chain out previously. I am not sure we have ever seen an upper rod bearing go bad....generally the piston fails from a lack of oil before the rod or crank does. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/16 at 12:37:40 That's a pretty tinny sounding racket. Where were you holding what you recorded it with? Leaving it on the sidestand and troubleshooting it starves the cam for oil. If you're gonna be leaving it running while you study it, get it as close to vertical as possible and if you're gonna be running it very long, a fan blowing on that air cooled motor isn't a bad idea. The RPM related clanking makes me wonder about something in the exhaust. Instead of the screwdriver/stethoscope, try a piece of plastic tubing. Not recommended for contact with too scorching hot surfaces. A piece that fits in the ear and a metal rod shoved in the other end can be handy. I have an old stethoscope that I shoved a rod into. They are cheap. And a mechanics stethoscope isn't that much, either. Pardon me for saying it, but, it, Sounds like you could use one. If you could get the guy who sold it to you to be honest about what he had done to it before it started doing that, you might be ahead. I don't understand why anyone would step off into Bobbing a Savage and leave that turd of a muffler on it.. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/10/16 at 13:18:01 how about po that didn't use a sealer on the top cap also didn't line up the timing marks putting on what appears to be a new chain.Haven't we heard that the motor will run being off a tooth on the cam gear, abet not well, valves hitting piston maybe. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/10/16 at 13:31:30 If it was my bike, and considering the shady history of the bike....I would most likely take the engine out of the frame, take the top end apart and see what stuff looks like. Once the head is off and you can see the cam/rockers/head and valves look like. If nothing looks bad up there (and you know what to look for), I would take the cylinder off and inspect the piston/cylinder/rod/crank. If this is a bike you are going to keep and ride and put some miles on....it is a worthwhile investment of time and money to have the engine put back together and reliable. You can decide what parts the bike needs to become reliable again.....worn out or damaged parts should be replaced. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/10/16 at 13:31:53 If there is valve/piston interface I could understand not being able to isolate the noise as it would travel to the bottom end via piston/crank and cam chain passage turning side cases into speakers |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/10/16 at 13:48:16 As for it being the flywheel being loose I believe there has only been two cases on this site that makes the odds 2500 to 1 that you would be number 3 |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/10/16 at 13:48:29 5152475E525D070B330 wrote:
I had a problem isolating my loose flywheel nut. The left side of the crank where the flywheel is located does not touch the left side of the case....the vibrations travel into the crank, through the crank bearings and into the left/right center case halves......it just couldn't be isolated as it shook the entire engine. I had the top of he engine apart, and was taking the left side rotor off, then when I went to take the flywheel nut off and I was expecting 100 ft./lbs. of force to remove it.....I was surprised when I put the socket on with my hand and I could turn the nut! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/10/16 at 13:51:33 2A353334292E1F2F1F27353972400 wrote:
I sat on the bike while recording with my phone on the right hand and moving it around, can't really remember where. Bought it from a friend who got it in a trade, all he could say is that the PO had replaced the cam chain. It had a straight pipe when I bought it, and there was a clanking then too, but maybe it was slightly different. I have to check the exhaust and buy a stethoscope. Haven't really dared to rev the engine due to the noise, but it seems to be louder at lower revs. I haven't driven it yet, either. The timing is correct AFAIK, the marks on the cam shaft end were vertical when the left side plug hole mark was lined up with the crank shaft marking. The upper con rod bearing is the piston pin, right? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/10/16 at 14:02:58 33080512030F141209010C13600 wrote:
Yeah, that will be the next step. Unfortunately I don't now have a suitable garage or tools to do a major engine rebuild, I have to move it (drive) a few hundred kilometers to do that. Hope it will take me there... |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/10/16 at 15:07:07 Well, if it doesn't, at least finding the problem won't be hard. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by verslagen1 on 05/10/16 at 15:57:27 42464346474C5A290 wrote:
Is this what you mean by vertical? http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/cam_line_up.JPG Most people call this horizontal... but, to each his own. :-? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by oldNslow on 05/10/16 at 16:46:03 This may be a long shot but I remember a bike that was in a shop where I worked for a short time many years ago. A big Kawasaki two stroke single. Had a knock that we couldn't diagnose. We had that motor apart a couple of times without finding the source of the noise. Finally one of the guys in the shop discovered a tiny piece of metal stuck to one of the teeth on the primary drive ( crankshaft) gear, about halfway down the tooth. Every time a tooth on the Driven( back of the clutch) gear meshed with that tooth he heard a tiny little "click" when he was turning the engine by hand. When the bike was running that "click" was a loud "knock" . He pried the hunk of metal out of there with a screwdriver. No more knock. Quote:
Might be worth a look. It sounds like whoever was in your motor before you wasn't real careful, and if he did replace the cam chain he was working in that area. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/10/16 at 17:35:37 May I butt in again with my 2 bits worth of knowledge. You said the cam mark was vertical when the crank mark lined up? Ah that would be a problem the cam marks need to be horizontal and line up with the top of the bearing. Use the stethoscope to find and locate the knock. The top end is suspect. There is a oring that controls oil flow to the top end and if it's not there or that galley is blocked it won't push enough oil up to the cam/ valvetrain. :-? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/10/16 at 23:54:05 716275746B6660626936070 wrote:
Is this what you mean by vertical? http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/cam_line_up.JPG Most people call this horizontal... but, to each his own. :-?[/quote] Yes, I really ment horizontal ;D |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/11/16 at 00:04:02 1321362127252D212E7576400 wrote:
The O-ring is there, I installed a brand new one when I reassembled the head cover. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/11/16 at 00:08:34 655B5A56445859370 wrote:
That came in mind at very early stages, a friend rotated the engine while I was checking what happens at the clutch side. Couldn't see or hear anything that might have caused it. But inside the magneto rotor was a lump of aluminium, about the size of a small pinkie tip. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/11/16 at 04:02:21 If you have hunks of aluminum inside your engine.....it is definitely time to take it apart and see what is going on. There is nothing inside the engine that should be flaking off aluminum pieces. The cam is the only thing that uses the aluminum as a bearing surface, and everything else has a bearing to ride in. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/11/16 at 04:43:59 t inside the magneto rotor was a lump of aluminium, about the size of a small pinkie tip. Worth knowing, and finding where it came from might help. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/11/16 at 05:35:26 But inside the magneto rotor was a lump of aluminium, about the size of a small pinkie tip.[/quote] Time for a tear-down. Or go find an unloved beater and use the engine out of it. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/11/16 at 08:28:38 736C6A6D70774676467E6C602B190 wrote:
I'm quite sure it's from the clutch cover, it has a crack that has been welded. Looks like someone didn't want to use any silicone gasket and tried to tighten that one bolt a bit too much to get rid off an oil leak... I removed the rotor, the bolt and rotor itself were quite hard to remove. Seems like the key isn't that easy to get off, either... >:( |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/11/16 at 08:35:16 In the picture, the gears 1 and 3, are they supposed to be in that order, the limiter assy next to the starter motor? I had them the other way around. I think that there was also that one spacer missing... |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/11/16 at 08:41:23 No....the torque limiter is in the middle.....the plain gear is nearest the starter. The torque limiter has a spacer/washer on both sides (inside/outside), the other gear has none. http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Starter Clutch Upgrade/washer-location.jpg |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/11/16 at 14:00:40 You need a complete engine tear down to find out what is wearing. All that material is churning through the oil galleys and causing other bearing surfaces to wear. And check out the top end con rod bearing. Too many variables in it now to pinpoint the cause without a tear down. Good Luck with it and post results. :( |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/11/16 at 16:26:22 I would go to lengths to try to narrow down where that noise is coming from before I walked off into it. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/11/16 at 16:39:24 Posted on: Today at 16:26:22 I would go to lengths to try to narrow down where that noise is coming from before I walked off into it. That's the ticket. That's why I always use and recommend a stethoscope to pinpoint the noise. But stubbornness and laziness usually kick in first. Problem isolation part of basic troubleshooting. Then it boils down to pull it apart and see where the problem is. ::) |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/14/16 at 08:57:51 Flywheel was just fine. Is there any way to check that the oil pressure is ok and the oil is moving properly to the head? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by norm92de on 05/14/16 at 09:07:48 I would think that if there is plenty of oil visible through the valve adjustment caps you can be almost certain that the head is getting sufficient oil. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/14/16 at 13:26:56 You mentioned someone welded or did some repair to the clutch cover? There is a oil galley for the crank on that. Right were the small oil seal is. That supplies oil to the crank, rod, piston, pretty much the whole top end. My point being make sure the oil seal is good. The noise could be piston slap. You would have to pull the jug off and check the piston skirt and have the cylinder bore gauged. Another simple but overlooked thing. Is the oil filter installed the correct way? If not it will block oil pressure and ruin the engine quickly. Lastly yes you can check oil pressure with the wright adapter. There is a chrome bolt below the oil filter where you could connect a oil pressure gauge. 8-) |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/14/16 at 15:05:39 simple but overlooked thing. Is the oil filter installed the correct way? If not it will block oil pressure and ruin the engine quickly. Usually only takes minutes to blow the filter against the cover hard enough to break it. But, pulling the filter and seeing what it's caught is a cheap thing. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/16/16 at 06:09:00 I just listened to the noise again. The noise isn't there under load, but gets very loud as the piston is unloaded. My money is on a bearing failure on the crank shaft. Perhaps the needle bearing. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/16/16 at 06:53:47 What does it do when you downshift and let the engine slow the bike? I would get it rolling good, get it in neutral and see what it does. Fifty or so sounds good. Coast a bit, Hit the kill switch, too. See if you learn anything. Seems like a bad bearing would be as bad or worse under load. The output shaft and pulley can make noise. If the pulley is hitting the cover it's gonna be loud. If it's that loose, I'd be worried.. but, under load, that area is gonna act different from coasting. If you haven't eyeballed it,do, before you ride again. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/16/16 at 09:12:34 My understand is that the OP hasn't ridden the bike due to the concern of the noise. That kind of rules out the pulley theory. It also makes diagnosis while riding unnecessary. Every time that I've heard a bad bearing it was when the throttle transitioned from loaded to unloaded. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/16/16 at 10:18:23 That kind of rules out the pulley theory. No, it doesn't. Unless you have looked, that is where you need to go. Besides, if you're gonna rip into it, might as well get it on a bench. I don't know what miles it has on it. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/16/16 at 11:27:06 Yep pull the clutch cover check the oil seal oil filter and pull the jug off. Check piston, con rod bearings, cylinder wall, top end... Bummer :( |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/16/16 at 12:52:29 Yeah, start with that. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/16/16 at 12:55:54 I've pulled the clutch cover twice, first to check the tensioner and second time to check everything again and add some sealant on top. The oil filter can't be installed wrong way around and the O-ring is in there too. I'm going to drive it a bit and give it some more throttle when I've installed the left side cover, maybe I know more after that. Can't pull the jug off without driving her a couple of hundred miles, as I have no tools or suitable space here, or have no other transportation method than driving. Renting a van would be way too expensive :P |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/16/16 at 13:16:07 The oil filter can't be installed wrong way around. We've Seen it done. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/16/16 at 14:44:25 And check the oil seal inside the cover. If it's damaged or not there a big problem. Not the oring on the oil filter but inside the clutch cover it's about a inch to 1.5" in diameter. :-/ |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/17/16 at 00:59:24 77455245434149454A1112240 wrote:
Oh yes, that axle seal. Saw it and noticed that it's very_slightly_ slanted, tried to push it straight but it wouldn't move so left it like that. Seemed fine otherwise. What's its purpose? To seal something, obviously ;D Is there a oil passage inside that axle or does it just keep the oil inside? Can't really remember which side up it was there, maybe I'll pull the clutch cover and check that it's not seated wrong way around. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 05/17/16 at 07:25:38 That's an important one. It provides oil pressure to the crank and top end. If it isn't sealing properly you lose oil pressure. You might want to replace it if it is torn or out of round. :-? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Art Webb on 05/17/16 at 08:11:18 726D6B6C71764777477F6D612A180 wrote:
the newer oil filters have been redesigned, I think, the first time I changed my oil, I had to be careful not to put it it back'erds, the 2nd time, the filter would not have been installable the wrong way round Maybe Suzuki got tired of replacing motors mechanics at the dealer blew up |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/17/16 at 17:48:59 It'd be great if that's true. I sold mine a few years ago. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 06/16/16 at 13:42:51 OK, drove it a bit with no change in the noise. Pulls really nicely :D I inspected the audio file visually and the noise appears 852 times a minute. So that leads me to a conclusion that -idle is adjusted too low -can't be a con rod bearing as it would tap double as much, wouldn't it? Next I'll check the compressions and look inside the cylinder with a borescope, if there's nothing worrying there then I'll have to order some plastigauge and check the cam journals. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/27/16 at 09:49:34 Had a few months of thinking with this and compared my recording to a S40 idling 1050rpm video. My Savages idle is adjusted much higher and 852 noises per minute suggests that the tapping must appear every other turn of the crankshaft. So, it can't be anything else than a valve related issue or a stiff link in the cam chain. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 07/27/16 at 09:57:28 I'd use a good old fashioned stethoscope on the cylinder. It sounds like piston slap to me. Loose piston in the cylinder. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/27/16 at 10:00:45 4173647375777F737C2724120 wrote:
That's a very popular suggestion, but wouldn't it make noise much more frequently? I just got a garage to open her up, going to drive her there tomorrow and lift the engine off the frame, after a good session with a stethoscope. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 07/27/16 at 10:16:11 You would hear it more pronounced during ignition. So the same speed as the cam. Every 4th stroke at the power stroke. Compression stroke, spark/power stroke makes the piston skirt rattle on the cylinder wall. If that's it. Could be valve timing jumped out a notch or 2. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/27/16 at 13:30:38 If you're Paying for it, you Definitely have some Ko screaming Jones. Have you asked what they are going to charge you? Used engines aren't too expensive. Before you start paying someone to go through the engine HUNTING for a problem,,I would get a Quote , a no kidding, we are not going to spend more than This money on it, quote. I would be hunting a used engine. If you can swap engines, then you can go through the one you're using later, build it up, Labor adds up Fast, shops are notorious for bidding a job, and then they are SOOOO close, just a few hundred more dollars,, and Then they will have it,, they're just Sure. I would not leave my savage with anyone who didn't know more about it than I did. Talk to the mechanic, ask what Exactly he was planning to do to find and fix it. Sounds like you're pretty able to do things, I'd hate to see you drop a bundle and not be able to ride because you dumped a ton in a dead engine. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/28/16 at 11:15:28 637C7A7D60675666566E7C703B090 wrote:
I'm going to do it all by myself, with a little help from my friends ;) https://www.dropbox.com/s/yvxuaovxpnrhyco/2016-07-28%2016.32.20.jpg?dl=0 Engine removal took us 3 hours, before that I had a chance to properly drive the Savage first time. Have to admit that it's quite nice bike :) The noise is most present when the motor is under load, while engine braking it's perfectly healthy sounding. On the startup the engine sounded perfectly fine too, but after a minute or two of warming up the clanking was there and refused to go away. I hope it's piston slap, then I'll have a 666cc Green Machine 8-) |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/28/16 at 16:35:19 Took it apart, nothing worrying except valve marks at the top of the piston and a very loose wrist pin. How loose should it be? This one slided very easily on con rod and piston, could even wiggle it a little. Going to measure things tomorrow. uneven wear pattern on piston side: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b7cfbefxp5vgrv/2016-07-29%2001.22.22.jpg?dl=0 slight grooves on the camshaft https://www.dropbox.com/s/zs5m6az7mq9soo6/2016-07-29%2000.34.13.jpg?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/28/16 at 18:44:45 Most engine manuals recommend wrist pin clearances between .0008 and .0010-inch for conventional engines; my advice is to run .0020 to .0022-inch wrist pin clearance in a serious drag racing engine. http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-49-wrist-pins-and-unintended-consequences/ If you're able to call it sloppy, it's probably not in spec. It's not Just the clearance, is the hole round? Are the piston holes the same size and shape? Is the connecting rod hole the same size on both sides? How much slop in the pin and con rod? Can you tilt it? Running a micrometer on each end and center and the length between end and center, how is the wear? Dial calipers are better than nothing, micrometer is better. The wrist pins job is to stop the piston at the top of the exhaust stroke and drag it down for the intake stroke. If it's worn in the piston/ pin/ rod areas, it's Gonna be noisy on that stroke. When it gets to the bottom of the intake stroke, it's gotta stop the piston and head into the compression stroke. Worn holes and pin equals Clack. Turning around at the top of compression, no clack, turning around at the end of the power stroke, no clack, Get the crank poking the rod up as far as possible and play with it. Feel for slacif you pull or push. Lean it left and right, gently, don't Try to wreck the bearing. Twist, push, pull, gilt. Without knowing How loose the wrist pin is, nobody can know if it's okay |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Savageman on 07/28/16 at 19:59:23 As suspected the valve timing was out causing the piston to hit the valves. Probably due to stretch and maybe jumped a few teeth. Also you need to use a bore gauge on the cylinder to check for barrelling and measure the piston shirt diameter. Whats the clearance difference there? Your mechanic should know all this if he is a good mechanic. And look up the factory specs or rebore it. Piston pin should have almost no detectable wobble at all. Hopefully the top con rod bearing isn't worn or time for a new /used engine. Talk to lancer about the piston. :o |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 07/29/16 at 03:57:43 7C4E594E484A424E411A192F0 wrote:
I don't believe it is possible for the cam chain to jump teeth on this bike. If someone had the engine apart previously...they may have assembled it wrong. It could also be that the wrist pin is loose enough to allow the piston to move around too much and contact the valves.....or that somebody over revved the engine and floated the valves. Kojones.....Can you take a picture of the top of the piston for us? Was it only the exhaust valves that touched, or the intakes....or both? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/29/16 at 03:59:40 7341564147454D414E1516200 wrote:
Yes, the PO has replaced the cam chain and the tensioner after tensioner failure. It also looks like he has replaced the valves as they seem to be fine. I have no previous experience with engine overhaul, here's some pictures if anyone is interested to have a look: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jaq0s270mgmh2ox/AABa-3jFUpYk3T3J_GEAfbmwa?dl=0 any thoughts? And as a low budget traveller I'd like to get my bike running as cheap as possible, if the wrist pin is the only problem wouldn't it be a smart move just to replace the pin with oversized one? Just a few turns on a lathe. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/29/16 at 04:10:11 33080512030F141209010C13600 wrote:
Both. https://www.dropbox.com/s/73v1m4lly887x3w/2016-07-29%2001.05.07.jpg?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 07/29/16 at 04:15:42 Well that isn't right....the only time the valves are both open is at the overlap that occurs at TDC. I wonder if somebody tried to set the clearance and got them waaaaay too tight once? It is possible that if the wrist pin is so loose....the piston could be moving around and hitting the valves at the overlap - however the stock cam is pretty darn mild on lift and the valves should be a long way from the piston (even at TDC). |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/29/16 at 06:59:45 6E55584F5E52494F545C514E3D0 wrote:
The pin it's not that loose, at least not when in room temperature. Here's the piston without cleaning: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eq71c0peznb31l5/2016-07-29%2000.58.21.jpg?dl=0 A bit loose fit, maybe? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 07/29/16 at 07:04:12 The cylinder and piston don't visually appear to have a lot of wear, certainly not enough to allow the valve to hit the pistons. You need to remove the rings, and use a feeler gauge to check the piston/cylinder clearance. The sides don't wear much....it is the front of the piston and cylinder that get the most wear. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/29/16 at 11:06:10 Guesswork is over, I measured the piston: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cczk463yfvrrw2r/2016-07-29%2019.41.21.jpg?dl=0 3 more pictures following that one, wear limit according to Clymer is 93,880. The side facing the camera was measured. Crankshaft bearing and wristpin hole were fine. Next I'm going to order a 95mm Wiseco and get the cylinder bored and honed. So, I've read that the DR650 camshaft will fit? ;) Any suggestions with nozzle sizes that will go nicely with stock muffler and 666cc overbore but would later work better with less restrictive muffler? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by norm92de on 07/29/16 at 19:42:50 I always thought that the thrust face of the piston exhibited the most wear. I.e. the rear of the piston on the Suzuki. Have I got it wrong? |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 07/30/16 at 05:39:25 6564796632396F6E0B0 wrote:
So I've read, but it seems to be quite the opposite in my bike. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 08/06/16 at 05:51:15 Still waiting for the piston, ebay global shipping program doesn't seem to be very fast... But I did measure the clearance of the cam journals and they seem to be in very good condition, clearance was 0,05mm to 0,063mm. That was very good news, the piston is now the only thing that needs to be replaced. I also did a complete overhaul to a spare forks I had, now I just have the replace the leaking forks with the new ones. Also replaced the original #125 & #47,5 jets with #150 and #50. Have to say that this is quite fun, I'm a total noobie when it comes to motorcycles or engines ;D |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 08/30/16 at 10:13:32 Fired it up yesterday after a bore job and with a new piston, idled fine until warm and I was a very happy camper. Replaced the forks today and started it up to find out that it's still clanking. Sh*t. >:( |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/01/17 at 05:59:35 Replaced the valves as one intake valve was bent, still that same noise :'( https://www.dropbox.com/s/55r0vu7e8w04hbr/2017-05-01%2015.27.28.mov?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by Dave on 05/01/17 at 06:06:48 There have been 2 bikes on this forum that have had loose nuts on the flywheel. The noise was loudest at low speeds......at high rpm the sound was not very noticeable. The loose nut allows the flywheel to move on the crank - and the flywheel bangs on the splines. It is very hard to isolate the sound - as the banging goes into the crankshaft and is transmitted to the entire engine case.....it sounds like is is coming from everywhere on the engine! It is possible that the flywheel nut is loose......the only problem in checking it is you will need to have a puller to remove the rotor on the left end of the crankshaft, and a deep socket....and a tool to hold the flywheel in place. I have tools I can rent - but it is expensive to ship them in the US as they are heavy...shipping them to you would be very expensive! |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/01/17 at 06:43:26 I took the magneto rotor off about a year ago, couldn't get the flywheel off as the nut was too tight. So I don't think it is that. I'm quite sure the noise is coming from the clutch side cover, it comes and goes so there's something moving inside. The cover has been welded by the previous owner due to cam chain tensioner failure, I don't know if it's still deep enough for the tensioner and stuff Some marks that could be from the tensioner: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti613aal54fbs5j/2017-05-01%2017.41.10.jpg?dl=0 Measured about 11mm from the gasket surface to the oli channel. https://www.dropbox.com/s/z35l1jgbhddlgtk/2017-05-01%2017.57.08.jpg?dl=0 Anyone has a spare cover they could measure that distance? ;) |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/01/17 at 08:25:14 You said that the valve clearance was spot on at 10mm ,the valve clearance should be 5mm.(factory setting). |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/01/17 at 08:40:20 7477627B7778222E160 wrote:
Nope, the clearance should be .08-0.13, I've adjusted them to .10. It's not the valves. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by LANCER on 05/01/17 at 22:54:30 Factory manual lists In/Ex Valve Clearance (cold): 0.08-0.13mm or 0.003-0.005" |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/02/17 at 05:26:54 I installed a thin washer under the lock ring to prevent the tensioner hitting the cover, didn't help at all. It's quite nice weather outside. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by verslagen1 on 05/02/17 at 06:59:20 4D494C49484355260 wrote:
Well, you got it all wrong, the aluminum housing doesn't hit the case, it's the plunger that hits a rib on the case. And if that's rattling about, it's time. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/02/17 at 09:02:54 6D7E6968777A7C7E752A1B0 wrote:
Well, you got it all wrong, the aluminum housing doesn't hit the case, it's the plunger that hits a rib on the case. And if that's rattling about, it's time.[/quote] The plunger is about 13mm out, so it's not that time yet ;) Would be really good to know if my clutch cover is too shallow and that's why the tensioner keeps hitting it no matter what. Wouldn't like to get a new cover just for nothing. The tapping goes away and comes back with a twist of the throttle. Seems to be less frequent when the engine warms up. Quite sure it's coming from the clutch side of crankcase, but it might be the magneto side as well. Really hard to say with a stethoscope, too. Guess I have to get both the covers off tomorrow to take a look and paint the spots where the plunger is supposed to hit. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/03/17 at 11:30:31 So, things I've checked or replaced so far: -Camshaft journals (in factory specs) -New camshaft -New O/S Wiseco piston (old was 0,5mm under wear limits at the skirt) -Crankshaft and con rod bearings felt fine -New valves & seals (one was bent) -Flywheel nut (couldn't get it open, so I think it's tight enough) -Oil pump works & sprocket turned the right way around -Clutch (in factory specs) -Tensioner out 13mm, not hitting the cover, new cover ordered Any suggestions? Intermittent tapping, comes back and goes away with throttle, quite sure it comes from just below the cylinder out front. Will tear it apart on friday if I can't figure something else out. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by batman on 05/03/17 at 12:22:56 KOJones sorry about that bum steer on valve clearance , ,oo5 inches not mm. but I had similar noise and found I had set the valve clearance a bit too tight, before tearing into the motor you should try to set the valves at the high side of 13mm and see if the noise goes away.If the valves are set a bit to tight they tend to bounce off the seat and that may well be the problem,when mine did it I couldn't determine where the noise was coming from either,it was like a ringing noise all through the motor,and went away on increased throttle.With wear on the cam chain the cam is running behind the piston timing ,when the piston is at top dead center the cam is running behind. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/03/17 at 13:04:52 2E2D38212D2278744C0 wrote:
But my bike can idle couple of minutes without any noise at all, then the ticking just comes back if i touch the throttle, or it can come back after a while without touching anything. Never goes away without using the throttle. That could be explained with a bent valve, but I've replaced them all as one was bent. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/03/17 at 14:18:00 Well, we've seen one counterweight fail. Made inspection easy. It Self Drained the oil and installed an inspection window automatically. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/03/17 at 14:29:43 76696F6875724373437B69652E1C0 wrote:
Sounds fun and practical! The owner wouldn't agree ::) I read Dave's thread about the loose flywheel nut and that "clunk" from lifting the crankshaft rings a bell. Broken crankshaft bearing could also explain why the old piston had most wear on the sides. |
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Title: Re: 2000 Savage clanking noise Post by kojones on 05/06/17 at 14:26:27 It was the balancer hitting the crank end of connecting rod. |
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