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Message started by norm92de on 03/18/16 at 17:42:41

Title: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by norm92de on 03/18/16 at 17:42:41

Has anybody got any thoughts on "upper cylinder' lubricant.
Years ago in England we used to put a small amount of oil in the gas tank to supposedly lubricate the valve guides a bit and of course the carb.

With the ethanol we are forced to put in the gas tanks a bit of oil might not be a bad thing? If nothing else it might protect the metal parts inside the carb from corrosion.
The product we used was called Redex if I recall correctly. :-/

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/16 at 18:06:10

I sure don't have a problem with the idea. Can't think of the name of it,but my gramps used to dump some reddish oil in his carburetor and the gas when the lifters would clatter.
I don't think a shot of diesel would hurt.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Dave on 03/18/16 at 18:15:39

The E10 really isn't harmful from a lubrication point of view. It is hard on rubber, steel and aluminum parts when the engine is in storage, as it can dissolve rubber and corrode or rust metal parts.

New fuels are very clean when running, and there really isn't a need to add anything to the fuel.....as long as the fuel is kept fresh and the engine is run regularly.

I do add Sta-Bil fogging oil to my engines before they go into storage for the winter.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by engineer on 03/18/16 at 18:29:46

I remember old guys doing that in the early 1950's but had totally forgotten about it until reading your post. I think it went out of practice for a several reasons, one the auto makers said it didn't help and the oil tended to foul the plugs.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/16 at 18:37:08

Maybe gramps just hadn't yet adopted the whole
Use multigrade oil
idea.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/18/16 at 19:11:25

617E787F62655464546C7E72390B0 wrote:

my gramps used to dump some reddish oil in his carburetor and the gas when the lifters would clatter.

It's an old trick to use a little transmission fluid in the gas to clean/lube the engine. It'll smoke like a chimney for a little while though.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by old.indian on 03/18/16 at 19:26:20

213E383F22251424142C3E32794B0 wrote:

It's "Marvel Oil", and you can still find it in the red cans/bottles at some parts stores. I used it in my Packard(s) as a top end lube in the gas AND to free up the old engines that had sit for a couple of years.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by norm92de on 03/18/16 at 19:42:51

I do remember on two strokes ????? that the carbs were always in much better condition than four stroke engines. The Amal on my old BSA B31 would have done much better with a bit of lube in there.

Plug fouling is a factor that might make it a bad idea, also carbon deposits.

On the Suzi the plated parts on the slide seem to take a beating.
The amount of oil we used was about a "trigger" pull on an oil can per tank.

How's this for a rambling note. ;D

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by norm92de on 03/18/16 at 19:48:50

I also remember a Subaru with a carb, that thing hated ethanol. I was always replacing the rubber diaphragm for the accelerator pump.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/16 at 19:48:55

YEAH, Marvel Mystery Oil..
Palm/forehead
Duhh, and that's what I squirt in the airtools..

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by old.indian on 03/18/16 at 20:06:30

67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:

YEAH, Marvel Mystery Oil..
Palm/forehead
Duhh, and that's what I squirt in the airtools..

;D ;D ;D
The meds AGAIN ??????

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/16 at 20:43:55

Naaah, im good on the meds.
Really, I'm almost sure of it.
Why would you suggest that the meds are the problem, huhh?
I mean, can't a guy just Screw up, without it being the Meds?
Huhh?
I mean, ya don't Hafta BE screwed up
to screw up.
Yeah,,,
See?
Anyone can just read that and TELL I'm okay with the meds..
Uh huhh.
Really...

Hey! Are you LAUGHING at me???

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by jcstokes on 03/19/16 at 01:25:59

My Chilton 1931 Automotive Multi Guide, has a significant ad for "Marvel Mystery Oil" and shows the dispenser that could be fitted to your manifold to inject the "Mystery Oil" into the bores for upper cylinder lube.
Yes, in the 1950's to 'seventies, garages/service stations in Godzone sold Redex as an upper cylinder lube. It came in a cream coloured conical tin with a squirt injector on top and was fed into the petrol tank. My family couldn't afford it.
The Diesel theory was tried by some antique car enthusiasts here, not so much as upper cylinder lube, but to cut down the octane rating/AKI index of the current fuels in NZ, this idea is out of fashion.
A late friend of mine used a small quantity of two stroke outboard oil in his 1909 Sizaire et Naudin water cooled single as upper cylinder lubricant and was happy with the result.
I don't know if we would gain anything by these practices even if our base design is thirty or more years old.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Rodger on 03/19/16 at 06:23:36

An old friend of mine said they had propane-fueled stationary engines in the oil fields and used Marvel as an upper engine lube, injected mechanically. Personally, I've used it in the diaphragm damper cylinder of the Stromberg carburetor on my '77 Triumph "Spitfire."

Perhaps such practices fell out of favor due to emission controls, just as ZDDP was removed from car oils?

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Dave on 03/19/16 at 10:33:20

The use of upper cylinder lubes went away when fuel injection came along, and when technology made engines that could go 300,000+ miles without a rebuild. Fuel injection has eliminated the "choke", and you no longer wash the oil off the cylinder walls with the "too rich" fuel mixture".

Engines really don't get clogged up with carbon deposits the way they used to, and a lot of what those upper cylinder lubricants did (Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil), is to loosen the carbon that had the piston rings locked into the grooves in the piston. And as much as we hate the new E10 fuels, they have improved the additive package and it helps to keep the deposits off the injectors, valves, pistons and rings.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/19/16 at 10:50:02

787161667D797761120 wrote:

The Diesel theory was tried by some antique car enthusiasts here, not so much as upper cylinder lube, but to cut down the octane rating/AKI index of the current fuels in NZ, this idea is out of fashion.

Why would you want to lower the octane?

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by norm92de on 03/19/16 at 11:27:09

My main thought is to lubricate the throttle shaft and coat the steel parts inside the carb to prevent corrosion. I've seen pictures of corrosion on the screws and plate that hold the needle in place, for one, and a bit of lube on the slide doesn't seem like a bad idea.

In turbine engines Jet A lubricates the, extremely expensive, fuel controller, and Diesel of course does the same for the injector pump.
I've always thought that a poor gasoline carb is starved for lubricant.

On of the reasons I bought a Savage is because of the carb. My Triumph Bonneville is the same. Even a dumb gorilla like myself can maintain them. :)

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by DesertRat on 03/19/16 at 12:14:35

Diesels are a different animal. The fuels contain waxes that aid in lubrication along side of the normal oil lubrication systems.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/19/16 at 12:53:48

I'm curious,too.
Why would you want to lower the octane?
Back to top

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by pg on 03/19/16 at 14:29:08

Perhaps a more simple reliable engine at the expense of performance. Kinda sounds like a savage. :-?

Best regards,

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by pg on 03/19/16 at 14:32:48

Incidentally, I use Lucas upper end lubricant. It doesn't do wonders but, I do get better gas millage.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by gizzo on 03/19/16 at 22:53:20

My upper cylinder is lubricated by the lower cylinder lubricant sneaking past the tired rings ;)

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Art Webb on 03/20/16 at 08:34:00

We used to run Diesel at 1 gallon to 10 gallons of gas to clean fuel systems on older cars (diesel fuel is a great engine parts cleaner) for 1 tank about every oil change
With injected cars it's not helpful
Marvel Mystery oil will not hurt your engine provided you don't overuse it, dunno if it'll help any, though

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Ruttly on 03/20/16 at 09:33:45

Never and I repeat never add diesel to gasoline , don't do it ! Raises cylinder temp. well beyond a safe condition. It's the same as the guy with a 2 stroke that think his bike is lean then adds more premix oil to fuel to make up for it. More oil in fuel reduces ratio of fuel which causes a lean condition raising cylinder temp. Compounded by the chemical composition of when diesel is added to gas it burns WAY hotter the just gas. So if you like melted Pistons & engine rebuilds have at it , you have been warned !

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/16 at 12:11:42

Wow! I've never heard that a bit of diesel would hurt a gasoline engine. I've done it many times. I'm talking about something like a pint in a tank,on the truck, or a capfull in the bike.
And, the point about how hot it is, makes sense.
Diesel fuel contains more BTUs per gallon than gas.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/20/16 at 12:16:06

Hmmm, good tip!

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Dave on 03/20/16 at 17:46:24

584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:

It was not uncommon for old Porsche 356 engines to get carboned up, and the carbon would make the engines run poorly...as the carbon would bump up an already high compression ratio. It was common for folks to add diesel fuel to clean out the built up carbon. They were warned however, that diesel fuel in the gas would lower the octane rating of the gasoline, and light throttle and slower speeds were required until they used up the fuel and got rid of the diesel in the tank.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/20/16 at 17:56:15

All these years,,, wow,

What percentage are we talking about, when it gets dangerous.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/20/16 at 18:24:28

Diesel pump nozzles are too big to fit into a gas tank. That's to keep people from putting the wrong fuel in your vehicle! Diesel used to be cheaper than gas ya know!

However, a smaller gas nozzle will fit into a diesel tank. There might be a problem here! ;D

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Art Webb on 03/21/16 at 09:41:18

I used the 1 gallon of diesel to 10 gallons of gas many times, no problem ever, much less melted pistons, etc
now running 1/2 n 1/2 would probably cause problems, and doing it all the time would likely cause problems, but it was a 1 /10 (up to 1/20) once an oil change
Kris, most 1975 and earlier auto gas tanks will accept a diesel nozzle easily, the smaller fill neck was initiated when unleaded gas was introduced, to keep the newer cars from being fueled with leaded gas, which kills catalysts, not really to keep us from putting diesel in, it was done due to EPA regs
us idiots that buy the cars, they could care less if we kill our cars through stupidity

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/21/16 at 12:54:46

Killing ourselves out of stupidity, however, is something that they Do care about.
New York City plans to enact a far-reaching ban on the sale of large sodas and other sugary drinks at restaurants, movie theaters and street carts, in the most ambitious effort yet by the Bloomberg administration to combat rising obesity.

Ohhh, geeze, don't Make me drag this to the Tall Table.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by gizzo on 03/21/16 at 15:23:28

7F465D470405340 wrote:

Used to work at a large coal mine. I saw guys there put :
Kerosene into a diesel bus. It ran, poorly.
Diesel into a Porsche (out of town contractor, trying to scam free fuel). It didn't run.
Hydraulic oil into a forklift. No chance.
Petrol (gasoline) into a diesel 4x4. can you say "Detontion"? It ran, but oh my....
I've done the 1/2 litre diesel into a tank of petrol many, many times and it's never done any harm. Just a good cheap carb/injector cleaner. In moderation. ;)

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/21/16 at 18:49:44

I'd like to see a video of a diesel 4x4 running on gasoline! ;D

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Ruttly on 03/21/16 at 21:27:21

Ok diesel is combustible fires under compression , gas is flammable fires with the help of a spark plug , mixing the 2 does not benefit either engine. When you add anything to either that is not designed for that engine you alter the fuel. When diesel is added to gas it causes a lean condition because you removed the gas and replaced it oil. Using proper fuel additives for the proper fuel is ok and some additives can be used in both fuels. Carbon build up can be removed with water sprayed in carb with a spray bottle at raised rpm , just a little at a time. When water is compressed it explodes blasting away the carbon. When ever I remove carb or the filter I use some 3in1 oil on the slide keeps the slide from drying/wearing on all my bikes. Do as you please , put what ever you want in your gas. Good old gasoline is all they need !

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by jcstokes on 03/21/16 at 23:20:14

Some of the antique car people in NZ tried the Diesel in small quantities to lower the octane, because of an idea that modern fuels combust faster in modern high compression engines. Some people claimed that a slower burning fuel was more suited to compression ratios of under 5.5 or 6 to 1 which was the case with most 1920's vehicles and that the diesel, about a US quart per tankful would do this. I'm no engineer physicist, or combustion engineer, so the whole thing could be BS . I don't really know.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by norm92de on 03/22/16 at 09:55:37

One thing is certain, you never see rust inside a petroil "twostroke" gas tank, and the carbs are always in better shape.

The only question is how much oil is the minimum.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/22/16 at 19:20:29

4B4252554E4A4452210 wrote:

That makes sense. Back then, the fuel was so bad, they had to use extremely low compression ratios (compared to today; my Mazda6 runs 13:1). Modern fuels are overkill for those older engines.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Ruttly on 03/23/16 at 20:50:17

My first mini bike couldn't keep up to the Honda fifty. Then I read that Cox glow fuel for model airplanes would increase power. Not only did it make it faster than the Honda fifty , it passed the Honda seventy too ! Had the fastest mini bike around. On my third tank of mixed fuel it ended when it melted a hole in the piston. My first rebuild at age eleven. Cox glow fuel is a form of diesel fuel. Been working as a mechanic on diesel & gas engines for the last 25 years have seen the damage it causes. Do engines that run on nitro or alcohol use upper cylinder lube , no because just enough oil is carried by the rings to lube cylinder. All its needs is Gasoline !!!

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by gizzo on 03/24/16 at 01:53:35

Cox glo fuel is methanol (alcohol), 15-30% nitromethane and 20%castor (or synthetic if you can't get castor) oil. They will run on straight glo fuel but they prefer loads of nitro. The air/fuel mix is ignited by the glow plug in the cylinder head which is a kind of hot wire heated initially by a battery then kept hot in a catalytic reaction with the methanol. Gasoline model engines need a spark plug.
No commercially available model engines run on diesel. Diesel model engines run on ether and oil with some scary carcinogens added for racing. They use a simple carb for induction, not the injector you need to atomise diesel fuel. So, they're not really diesels but they are compression ignition engines.
They all carry oil (castor or synthetic) blended with the fuel. Even the 4 strokes use premix.
I understand some of the US pulse jet flyers use Heet (the antifreeze stuff) as fuel. we don't get that here so it's methanol or gasoline for us. Gas for me, methanol is too $$$. Maybe the minibike would've rocked out with a bottle of Heet in it.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by norm92de on 03/24/16 at 13:53:17

I've decided to throw caution to the winds. :)

I'm squirting one shot of MobilI I, from an oil can, per gallon of into the gas tank.

The purpose, I hope, is to help prevent rust in the tank and also to lube the carb.

Curse that flipping ethanol!! :'(

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/24/16 at 18:25:13

Gas in the tank will prevent corrosion! ;)

It only corrodes when it's less than full. The gas doesn't eat away at the tank. It's the air above the gas that causes oxidation.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Kris01 on 03/24/16 at 18:44:13

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14679

A little extra work but might work out for you!

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by r80rt on 03/24/16 at 19:11:31

I used Marvel Mystery oil in the gas on my old flathead bikes, they seemed to like it. I never had valve problems with unleaded gas in them.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by Ruttly on 03/24/16 at 21:21:24

No wonder it went so dam fast and melted the piston ! I was cool for a few days. I just remember cox fuel as oily and glow plug only needing power to start , but I don't remember if it was flammable or combustible. Do remember that they had no piston rings and the fuel lubed the crank & connecting rod.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by gizzo on 03/25/16 at 00:36:30

Yeah too small for a piston ring. They have a tapered bore instead so as the piston gets higher up the bore it gets tighter and seals better. Pretty crude but gets it done.

Title: Re: Upper cylinder lubricant.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/25/16 at 13:10:24

I got six gallons through an Enya 35 before it demanded a new piston and sleeve. Hold it up to the light, push the piston to one side, looked like a crescent moon..
The glow plug sets off the fuel. The heat from the fire heats the glow plug filament, and, the compression, if you still Have any, along with the glowing hot filament, fires it after the battery is disconnected.