|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still same /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1456175224 Message started by Slipstream on 02/22/16 at 13:07:04 |
|
Title: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still same Post by Slipstream on 02/22/16 at 13:07:04 'NO-ONE KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE LS650 THAN THE MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM” Boy, am I glad to read that! Hi, I hope some expert can help here. I have a serious (head?) problem. The 2005 S40 starter keeps turning over, with the right-handlebar switch off & key off & removed. This happened once before with an old savage I had & scared the hell out of me. It miraculously stopped before the little men in their white coats appeared. Because of the Savage problem, I 'knew' it was the stuck points in the starter solenoid under the seat behind the ignition switch that was the problem, as a new one rectified the Savage hassles. WRONG! After doing what I thought was a darned good job (I even replaced the bottom bolt of the new solenoid without removing the airbox intake!) & before I attached the left side cover & seat, I touched the earth terminal to the battery to connect it. Away churns the starter again & I don't have the dough to get a mechanic onto it. The wife says – 'You might not need to sell it just yet. It wasn't doing this before you changed the handlebars !' She's right, but how right, and what could I possibly have done that alters the flamin' starter?? |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by KennyG on 02/22/16 at 13:33:48 SlipStream, I think it is time for you to take the switch off of the handle bar and start looking over the switch and wiring. Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by verslagen1 on 02/22/16 at 13:45:45 when trouble shooting, always undo the last thing you did prior to the trouble. remove the control from the bar, there maybe a bear wire under there... or a dead cat. So... it wasn't the starter relay. there have been a few fried decomp controllers that did the same thing. hell, 1 post? where you been? |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by v-pilot on 02/22/16 at 15:09:24 514255544B4640424916270 wrote:
Musta been lurking :o |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/22/16 at 18:13:14 KennyG 'I think it is time for you to take the switch off of the handle bar and start looking over the switch and wiring.' Are you telling me that the red switch on the r/h bar is always live to the starter when the key is not in the ignition?? Inside that switch assmbly is like brand new. Don't think it has ever been opened 'til now. This 2005 S40 had one elderly owner b4 I bought it a year back. It had done 19,000kms. The bike condition is like it has just come off the salesroom floor. Mint. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/22/16 at 18:23:38 I hadn't finished that letter to KennyG & it whizzed off the planet, but I continue with verslagen1.... Fried decompressor controller? I look in the index & 'De' for decompressor isn't even there! It starts with 'Di' for disc brakes. What a poor manual. I did find mention on Page 25 of the decompression cable but not the controller. Where is that & how do I test & how did it so conveniently pack up between the time I started & finished the bar swap!?? Thanks all who are trying to assist me here in NZ |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/22/16 at 18:48:16 I know that there is a place on the decompression solenoid controller that IF you put twelve volts to it, it Will fire the starter over, even if it is in gear, sidestand down, Key in your pocket. I Wanna say it's the Second wire from the left, standing behind the bike, looking forward. And,there is a single red , always hot, wire,running right close to it . |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by KennyG on 02/22/16 at 19:51:16 Slip Stream, I have not yet had any trouble with the starter/kill switch on my S40 Previous experience tells me that if I disassembled something and then had an electrical problem I should go back to square one and start inspecting for pinched wires. Nine out of ten times I would find the problem where I had something apart recently. It is worth a shot to try because it is not a difficult assembly to inspect. If I didn't find a problem there I would remove the gas tank and look for pinched / damaged wires where the wires bend to go under the tank near the forks. I am just sayin'...... It is your bike you can do what you want...... Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by verslagen1 on 02/22/16 at 20:28:59 152A2F3635323423272B460 wrote:
the decomp controller is the black box that sits on top of the carb. didn't find anything on testing it. http://suzukisavage.com/images/uploaded/harnessweb.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Savageman on 02/22/16 at 20:37:20 If you disconnect the decompression controller (under the tank, top of carburetor) and the starter shuts off then that should be a sure sign it is bad. Use a voltmeter and check the 2 small pins on the starter solenoid. Should be 0 volts when the starter button is not pressed. If it has 12 volts then you have a short or decomp cont issue. If it has 12 volts all the time then you definately have a short or a miss wired switch. Make sure the starter is actually running or just freewheeling which would indicate a bad starter clutch bearing. :-? |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/23/16 at 05:11:20 But, the first rule is, if work gets done and Now you've got a problem, inspect the work. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by verslagen1 on 02/23/16 at 07:32:22 You can check for a short in the button wiring with a voltmeter at the clutch safety. pull the connector and 1 of the wires will go to 12v when the button is pushed. if it's always 12v then there's your problem. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/23/16 at 12:14:01 Thanks Kennyg, ; I found no cat fur in there & not even a spec of dust :) Yes, gotta check it out. Everything looks as new in there, so for the time being I'll say to myself it is in working cond. Thanks to Justin. To v-pilot, you say 'So... it wasn't the starter relay. there have been a few fried decomp controllers that did the same thing.' So if it is fried & I try to connect the batt terminal back on, the starter can start turning? With the key in my pocket? Thanks for the diagrams. I have to check out Savageman & then I have to check out verslagen..... I really don't know what to do as so many statements are thrown to me. When I get time ill empty the petrol & remove the tank again. How bloody depressing is this :) |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/23/16 at 17:20:58 Took tank off. What is 'button wiring' & 'clutch safety'? :-[ |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/23/16 at 17:47:33 Hi SAVAGEMAN, you said-- ' If you disconnect the decompression controller (under the tank, top of carburetor) and the starter shuts off then that should be a sure sign it is bad. ' Answer = starter still activates. 'Use a voltmeter and check the 2 small pins on the starter solenoid. Should be 0 volts when the starter button is not pressed. Answer = Yep, zero volts. Thanks for that elimination. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/23/16 at 18:32:02 'But, the first rule is, if work gets done and now you've got a problem, inspect the work.' 'when trouble shooting, always undo the last thing you did prior to the trouble.' Yeah, very true. I enjoyed reading what was at the site beginning & am keen to do a Raptor p/thingy sometime. I wont bore you with the reasons why. 'hell, 1 post? where you been? Musta been lurking' I'll say I've been lurking; me & thousands of others here in Christchurch. Last Sunday week we had another shake thumper & I have another leaking pipe under the house. Yeah! Lurk lurk, that's us all right. No pinched wires anywhere that I can see. Starter not just freewheeling. Engaging authentically :) Wife has been making me chill out with a beer. Sure keeps me sane this week. (the beer ;)) She says "Don't panic & take an axe to it will ya! You'll only end up with a chopper!." Mmmm... mmmm.... |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/23/16 at 18:33:15 Well, since it doesn't have the twelve volts applied to the primary side of the solenoid, there is no reason for the solenoid to be sending power to the starter, unless it's stuck inside. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/23/16 at 19:21:24 justin_o_guy2 No, the contacts wont be stuck. It is a new solenoid I bought & installed thinking the old 'noid was stuck-up ;D |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/23/16 at 19:28:09 I'd be disconnecting one of the small wires. Then there is no way to be wrong. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Savageman on 02/23/16 at 20:00:34 I don't mean to walk all over others on here with my opinions or hurt any pride or egos. Just helping out. Sounds like another bad starter solenoid. Try and give it a good rap. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/23/16 at 21:18:40 I have already given the new starter solenoid a good rap & a telling off :) This must be the 1st time in the history of all LS650s that its not the solenoid. Please keep going; I may be famous yet. ;) |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Savageman on 02/24/16 at 08:48:26 OK disconnect the primary side of the solenoid. The 2 small wires. At this point you've eliminated everything up to the solenoid. If it still runs the starter motor then the solenoid is bad or the positive lead from the battery is touching the starter positive lead. Or something is shorting across the solenoid. What voltage reading do you get at the starter motor when it's running? Take pictures of the solenoid area for a visual. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by norm92de on 02/24/16 at 11:49:14 Slipstream, Are you sure that when you replaced the solenoid you didn't miss wire it? If you remove the large wires from the solenoid does the starter still turn? |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/24/16 at 12:20:52 Savageman -thanks. 'I don't mean to walk all over others on here with my opinions or...' they are just laying low & listening because they knew too much knowledge was shooting in my direction. They'll be there when needed. I can only perform 2 digital voltmeter jobs & that's measure volts & measure for inline continuity. I guess that's enough really. Both the old & the new starter solenoids measure 003 at the small brass pins, so I guess all is well, as touching the probes on the multimeter measures 000. I disconnected the primary side of the solenoid; the 2 small wires, & the starter does NOT engage when I go to connect the negative battery lead to battery. I hope all this is good news. The positive battery lead is well wrapped in a plastic coil-pipe as it passes the top of the solenoid, & the new solenoid has a good rubber cap/cover protecting it. I didn't take a pic as I can see pretty good with the bike outside in the shade. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/24/16 at 12:50:07 To norm92de The large wires on solenoid are shaped to only go on one way, but I can give a description. If I was holding the solenoid in front of my face with the small brass pins closest to me, the large connections would be:- black to the left & red to the right. Thanks. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by norm92de on 02/24/16 at 13:15:30 Slipstream, The solenoid is clearly ok at this point. You are going to have to trace the wires back until you find the short- 12 volts-. Do you have a correct wiring diagram? It is not too difficult but it takes time. The only time you should have 12v. at the primary of the solenoid is when you push the start switch. Versy had some good starting tips. No pun intended. ;D |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by norm92de on 02/24/16 at 15:40:19 Slipstream, Check the black wire from the igniter. It should not have 12volts on it. Just a hunch. :) |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Savageman on 02/24/16 at 16:39:26 Check the continuity of the solenoid with the starter wire and 2 small wires disconnected. You said the reading of the 2 small pins was 3 ohms? Should read infinity or no ohms at all. If it has a reading then the solenoid is stuck closed (always on). I just happen to have a spare solenoid with wires still attached. It should be wired as seen in pictures. Also mine reades 4 ohms on the primary side. Infinity on the battery side. :-? |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Savageman on 02/24/16 at 16:41:36 Measure it like this with the starter motor disconnected and the 2 small wires. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by oldNslow on 02/24/16 at 17:20:35 Quote:
Are you sure you don't have 12v on the yellow wire with the black stripe? |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/28/16 at 12:33:59 My computer went bung. I'm getting a bit lost again as regards just changing the bars & starter stuck. Will get back when I can. All thes replies to work out. :-/ |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 11:52:01 Savagenan says - 'Measure it like this with the starter motor disconnected and the 2 small wires. ' ok. I take the starter motor heavy wire off of it that has a rubber boot. Then I disconnect the 2 small wires on starter solenoid, Then I test the 2 small brass (primary) connectors. ....all things being equal, I'll go & do this, this morning :'( |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 13:07:09 To oldNslow- (sounds like I'm talking to myself) I just went out & disconnected starter motor & tested small wire primary connectors on solenoid & they measured 04.7 _____________________ I have to start afresh here for a moment. Hope you guys don't mind. New findings:- With starter disconnected at the starter, I touched the left-side battery lead to battery & there was a loud click/clonk in the solenoid. (please remember I removed the original solenoid & replaced with new) Does this mean the starter button on the bars, is stuck in the 'on' position, inside there somewhere??!! :-[ |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 13:12:32 ......but the key is not even in the ignition! :-/ |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by verslagen1 on 02/29/16 at 13:38:29 5A6560797A7D7B6C6864090 wrote:
starter power cable disconnected? starter removed from engine? I think you need to work backwards from the relay. Grab a volt meter and isolate each component in turn. ok, with starter power disconnected (we know the starter works) disconnect the primary (small) leads to the starter relay. Do you still get power to the starter power cable? Yes? then the relay you replaced is wrong/bad. Next... |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 13:42:16 to Justin o guy2:- 'I'd be disconnecting one of the small wires. Then there is no way to be wrong.' Yes, ..with the starter motor connected & the small primary wires disconnected the battery can be successfully connected again. A new solenoid can't be a failure from the factory surely. It must have been tested. Tests I just did -- with the multimeter set on inline continuity, the digi readout says 1. If I touch the electrodes together the readout says 001. The old solenoid I removed measures 003 over small wire terminals. In place, the new solenoid measures 003. (This is with the battery left lead off & starter motor connected & both small primary wires disconnected) Boy I'm foxed. It still arrives in my head saying 'solenoid stuck' whichever way I turn. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 13:47:28 Thanks Verslagen1-- 'Quote:starter disconnected at the starter' I'll try to describe more accurately. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by verslagen1 on 02/29/16 at 14:12:07 5867627B787F796E6A660B0 wrote:
on or off, the coils are going to measure low resistance. but check to ground to make sure they are not shorted. the contact from bat to starter should be open apply 12 v to the primary coil with the other side grounded and you should get a click and the bat to starter should be closed. You can do this with the starter button if you wish. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Savageman on 02/29/16 at 14:20:01 Sounds like a stuck starter solenoid. And YES they could have sold you a bad or used bad one. If you check the 2 big terminals on the starter solenoid with all wires disconnected it should read infinity on your ohm meter. The 2 small terms should read 3 or 4 ohms. You have to check this and make sure of it or else you are performing brain surgery on a hang nail. If the 2 big terms read 0 or .1 ohms then the solenoid is stuck and that's it... :-? This is called problem isolation. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by oldNslow on 02/29/16 at 15:17:23 Quote:
No, I understood you. What I suggested you check was the wire (yellow with a black stripe according to the schematic) for voltage. Not the terminal on the solenoid. I guess I should have been more specific. Disconnect the wire from the stud on the starter. Disconnect the yellow/black wire from the solenoid. Make sure neither of those wires can touch any part part of the bike while you are checking. Reconnect your battery. Key off. Hook your voltmeter between the yellow/bk stripe wire and a ground. If you have 12v on that wire with the key off and the start button not pushed, then that's where your problem is. I'll get back to that in a minute. If there is not 12v at that wire with the key off and the start button not pushed, then take your voltmeter and check for 12v at the wire you disconnected from the stud on the starter. If you have 12v on that wire you have a stuck or defective solenoid. If the solenoid is OK (No voltage on the wire you took off the starter stud) then the only way for it to close and operate the starter is if 12v is being fed to the yellow/bk wire that you just checked. To repeat. With the key off and the start button not pushed there should be no voltage at that wire. Savagemans instructions for testing the solenoid with an ohmmeter are valid and will lead to the same conclusion as far as determining if the solenoid is OK or not. . But you still need to know what's going on with the yellow/bk wire. Voltage to that wire is what closes the solenoid. If its being energised with everything turned off then you have to find out why. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 16:24:23 to OldNslow 'No, I understood you.' I was referring to your title :) I am old & slow! I'll try to find time tomorrow to carry on. I'm afraid my understanding of electrics & electrical terminology is minimal. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 02/29/16 at 22:04:20 We have had a yarn & I have decided to pack it in. It was ok while I wasn't losing sleep worrying about it. I took both solenoids to a local garage & they test out as good. I will sell something later on & get someone around to find what I did wrong on (presumably) the bars. If this page is still working or left open (?) when I have the job done, I'll post the answer of where I went wrong, up here. Thanks to everybody that gave me assistance, I'm pleased I got that far actually :) I really like the site & have some great reading ahead. Specially about oils, a subject unmentionable. ;) Just a note of caution to those that don't enjoy the Savage/S40 drag bars (with risers) shoving their elbows out & decide to change to the pullback ones. Your accelerator & clutch cables & the front disc brake hydraulic hose are now the wrong length & have to be replaced. (see Alpha Sports Parts) = expensive bar changeover. Plus the accelerator cable top-end to bar attachment has to be significantly doctored or another part bought. Still...was it worth it? I have the end result,... the pull-backs on this thumper. Too right it was 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/01/16 at 18:02:54 5A454344595E6F5F6F57454902300 wrote:
Read that carefully. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 03/19/16 at 13:49:56 Well I'm back for the last time on this problem. The little black electronics box ( 32910-24B10 under the seat that is for the decompression solenoid,) which has 6 flat brass connectors, had packed it in. We opened it up & long ago there must have been water in it. It is sealed to prevent this, so is a mystery. The solder blobs on the circuit board had corrosion. The guy said the timing of its death was just a coincidence. I paid him 120$ & bought a new one - 145$ & yesterday all was made operable. ::) -- I have to share something now before someone else has great head problems as I had. I bought this as-new bike from afar because it was cheap & lowish Ks. Cheap because it had a disgusting surge (I didn't know) that nearly made it un-rideable. I have been toying with selling as-is for ages. The surge was bad, mostly in the first 1/4 of the range of every gear but discernable throughout. Mechanics could not fix it. The last one, was a great guy (Duzgo) just retired, not because of me though :-/ with a fantastic reputation. He placed an old savage needle in the carb & had it set to idle very fast & said not to let it get too low in any gear. Everyone did their best but it wasn't PETROL surge, it was ELECTRICITY surge! Never imagined this was possible myself. There is no evidence whatsoever of any surge now. It is smooth as silk. I hope not too many are fooled by this too often. What a joy to ride Francis with those old pullback bars :) I guess it will need a carby tune, but not sure. I put the idle back to normal. Thanks everyone & the mods too. I have a ton of reading to do on this great site. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by verslagen1 on 03/19/16 at 16:17:51 47787D64676066717579140 wrote:
just to be clear, you replaced the black box and the surge is gone? the decomp controller does that and delays the starter and sends a signal to the ECU to retard the timing. |
|
Title: Re: Starter keeps turning. Fit new solenoid=still Post by Slipstream on 03/19/16 at 19:41:06 Yes, the black box is replaced & all surge is gone. You need to have a friend like Steven Frayne to own a bike :) |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |