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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Sport /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1453658625 Message started by cheapnewb24 on 01/24/16 at 10:03:44 |
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Title: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Sport Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/24/16 at 10:03:44 While I was snowed in at home out of work. (Sucks, don't it?) :( I tried a couple of times to ride my Savage in the snow. My first attempt was lazy... I didn't even get it turned around before I gave up and pushed it back in the shed. The second attempt was more successful. I got it a little ways out. Funny thing is-- I think I had to push it, spinning out, going down hill. ;D. Now that was a workout getting it back in the shed that time. ;D The Savage in substantial snow is virtually hopeless, at least with stock setup. It just sinks up and digs a hole. Are there any bikes (dirt/DS, I assume) out there that can ride in substantial snow without getting stuck, or is snow the achilles heel of all two wheelers? :-? This kinda got me interested in dual sports. I would like to get into dirt riding. I'm not sure where to ride it except for my family's land. Do dirt riders have special places to go ride, or are they all mean little trespassers? ;D I would like a balanced DS for commuting in less than the best conditions (Of course, that would be everyday by some people's standards) as well as some beginner mountain forest riding. I have been thinking about the old DR350. It is air-cooled, light enough for a balance of uses, barely enough engine for the highway, and can be fitted with a kickstart. For a long time, I was kinda interested in the KLR 650, but it's heavy and water-cooled. From what I gather, water cooling on a dirt bike is stupid >:(. Yeah, it has its advantages. However, what's the first thing that happens to one of these things in the woods? cough: stick through radiator :cough >:(. It turns out that many of the newer dual sports are water cooled. The DRZ400 that took the DR350's place is liquid-cooled. Not to mention the mental frustration of additional complexity compounded by an additional fluid to worry about! From what I gather-- a potentially corrosive fluid. :( WHAT'S WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( I like something a little simpler, thank you! :P Optional kick start would be appreciated, too. But some manufacturers are phasing those out too. >:( For all it's worth, I've read people on the bike forums with aviation experience. At least one has mentioned that there are not many liquid-cooled airplane engines. Supposedly, in that field, reliability is everything, so if you want to know the most indestructible engine designs, look at airplane engines. I am kinda interested in the DR650 as well, but it is either kick-only (early) or electric only (late) ERRRR! >:( Like the Savage, there isn't much fitting of a kicker on the electric starts. Besides that, they say its heavy. It's a little lighter than the KLR, but it is still heavy. Why can't someone... ANYONE make some cheap, reliable, simple, indestructible aircooled, electric/kickstart bikes with enough power. to run the 70-75 mph all day, yet light enough to be able to hold in the mountains and enough gears to get it all done comfortably. Why do the manufacturers have to screw it up somehow! >:( Let me guess... EPA (que Darth Vader music) |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/24/16 at 10:29:17 Of course, assuming I keep my Savage, I won't have the money to buy anything. ;D At least not for a little while... I can dream, can't I? By the way, where I am, there aren't a whole lot of good dual sports, and they are usually a little more expensive than cheap old street bikes. There are pure dirt bikes everywhere, and they're a dime a dozen. Why! Why would companies make these things and people buy them when they can't tag them for the road? Is it so hard to make a dual sport-- a simple highway-worthy dirt bike? Wish they were a dime a dozen! :P I know some people make the conversion, but I'm not sure I want to take that risk. Would a 200 or 250 DS be too small for reliable 55-65 mph commuting? I rode one of those briefly on the MSF course (Probably a Suzuki DR200 or 300). Easy to ride on the course. I would prefer something with 75 mph capabilities, but who knows. :-/ My typical commute includes some dirt/mud (driveway), a steep bumpy hill with gravel, back-mountain unmarked twisties, marked twisties, and a stretch of 55-60 mph (posted) four-lane. I weigh around 200+ lbs last I checked and I am 6 ft 1 inch in height. I am out of shape, though. Would I be happy with a smaller, lighter bike with a smaller, higher revving engine-- or should I get a big, heavy, torquey bike like my Savage? I can say one thing-- that Savage wasn't very easy to push uphill in the snow. ;) |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by MMRanch on 01/24/16 at 18:40:13 In Cycle World March 2016 issue is an article called "CHINESE TAKEOUT" . Its about a bike noted as : CSC MOTORCYCLES' RX3 CYCLONE. Price New : $3495.00 Engine : SOHC single Displacement : 250cc Seat Height : 31.3" Fuel Capacity : 4.2 gal. http://ridermagazine.com/latest-news/csc-motorcycles-to-import-the-rx-3-cyclone-a-250cc-adventure-bike.htm/ Don't know if its anyone's dream-come-true , but there is something like it. So : Question is ??? ::) Does the DR350 have points and condenser or is it trouble free ? :-? http://www.cscmotorcycles.com/RX3-CYCLONE-s/108.htm |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by old_rider on 01/24/16 at 20:58:57 If you are looking for just a cheap Chinese type snow bike, head over to Cleveland Cyclewerks.... First bike they done was a bobber, they wanted to just do a made in America type business, but couldn't get any backers. They ended up going to china to get the stuff.... but they have quite a few selections now.... http://clevelandcyclewerks.com/ccwbikes/ They sell through dealerships..... not many have the bikes in stock but they can order them... http://www.pitmotorsltd.com/dealers/ I have one down the road about 2 miles.... seen a bobber they used to have that was really in bad shape, owner left it sit out for 2 yrs.... was a rusty mess. My suggestion if you do order one, repaint it :) I live in salty air climate so I wash our savages (they are in the garage) about once a month. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/16 at 21:27:36 Get a bicycle. My ten speed went All over Odessa Texas in snow and ice. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/24/16 at 21:47:57 756A6C6B7671407040786A662D1F0 wrote:
Not practical. I ride 20 miles to work, and I'm out of shape. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/24/16 at 21:53:56 Don't try to ride to work. Just have fun. You can giggle and get in shape. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/25/16 at 00:28:40 Nice idea, but I quit riding largely because my bike's condition was going downhill. I'm heavy, and the steep hills seem too much for a $250 Wally World bike. ;D The sprocket teeth started breaking off. That, and I'm sometimes a little annoyed with the idea about neighborhood dogs. I was bitten once many years ago when I lived in another place. I've considered buying a pedal bike from time to time, but buying a good bike would cost near as much as a motorcycle. :o I'll have to save some money. (Gotta make it first, though) How do you have fun mountain biking when it takes so much stamina to pedal that you end up pushing the bike uphill. :( You can gear a bike as low as you want, but that doesn't fix the problem. :P Anyway, what size dual sport should I try? 650s are good for the road and have great power, but they're heavy. 250's are lighter and easier to throw around and have better gas mileage, but they don't have alot of acceleration or top speed, can't haul as much, and their practicality on the superslab is questionable. They're better dirt bikes that road bikes. If I got a 250, I'd want one that could sustain full throttle all day on the slab. Still not sure if I'd like the acceleration. Should I try a middleweight, like the 350 I've been talking about? |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Oldfeller on 01/25/16 at 00:34:31 KTM 380 gets very good reviews for a light two stroke. How much do you weigh? Smaller bikes require smaller people ...... Hooligan's very best motorsickle ..... http://www.ktm380.cc/images/ktm380cc9kromer.jpg ;D There is a KTM 390 Duke, a four stroke that is more sedate. http://image3.mouthshut.com/images/Restaurant/Photo/KTM-duke-390-57367_2754.jpg |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by oldNslow on 01/25/16 at 08:14:03 I think you need one of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq9gBNlgkpw |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Art Webb on 01/25/16 at 08:35:13 Cheap, if you want a true dual sport, it has to be in the neighborhood of 400cc, period the 650s, as you noted, are too heavy for serious dirt riding the 250s are not highway capable in any realistic sense There's a guy (everide ADV) on you tube that covered this in a few videos Now the DRZ 400 is going to be less than comfy on the slab, but it'll shine in the rest of your ride no kick start but the Ign is a CDI so may be self energizing, like the one on the Rebel. which means easy push starts in an emergency It is liquid cooled Unless you ride through brush, that carries no penalties aside fro the required maintenance and one more thing to fail If you can't deal with that look around at other 400 dual sports, but everide LOVES his DRZ and rides it to the exclusion of other bikes he's owned, like his KLR 650 and the 250 he had before |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by gizzo on 01/25/16 at 14:21:50 Dude if you can't justify affording a bicycle what makes you think you can run a second motorbike? You seem to have done the research and concluded that nobody makes a decent dualsport or cheaply enough so you appear to have snookered yourself. What's the obsession with cheapness? Good products cost money. Suck it up. FWIW I have a 1990 DR250 Dualsport, kick start only. Owned since almost new and done 60000km with No Breakdowns. Done plenty of 400, 500km days, sits on 100kph and carries all the gear I need. 26 yo, doesn't leak or burn oil and still looks ok. Try that with a Chinese snot box. IMO etc. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Dave on 01/26/16 at 12:17:42 3E35383C2D33382A3F6F695D0 wrote:
Because......some people only ride in the dirt, and never go onto a road. Lights/turn signals/horns only add extra weight and expense, and are easily broken when you fall down. True dirt bikes are very rugged and not easily damaged in a simple fall - and the close ratio gearing, compliant suspension and soft knobby tires are not good on pavement. (Pretty much the same reasoning that folks don't buy tractors for their daily commute to work - or use their Lexus to do the spring plowing). |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/26/16 at 13:24:52 But anytime you go off your own property, you have to haul it around or get a ticket. :( DS is more useful, isn't it? Or is the compromise that noticeable? |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Art Webb on 01/26/16 at 15:01:37 yes, the compromise is THAT noticeable and besides, if you don't want to ride paved roads (some people absolutely do not) why would you pay a bunch more for stuff you don't need not everyone is interested in street riding, not everyone is interested in trying to make one bike do it all a dual sport is not as good on the dirt as a pure dirt bike it's not as good on the slab as a true streetbike it CAN, if ridden well and equipped with sticky street tire, flat embarrass a 'real' sportbike on tight stuff, like the dragon, but in most cases a street bike will be a better streetbike, and a dirtbike will be better off road when you make one machine do it all, you compromise and you. my fiend, represent a SMALL percentage of the motorcycling community, as do I (I like DSs too) |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by pg on 01/26/16 at 15:27:08 767D7074657B7062772721150 wrote:
Go to advrider.com and read through the different bike threads. They will have them for all makes & models. If you want to learn about KLRs the best site I've seen is klr650.net. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Dave on 01/27/16 at 03:46:57 Yep....SuzukiSavage.com is not really the place for advanced discussions about your dirt/dual sport bike needs...most of our members aren't on the cutting edge of "doing it in the dirt". The really advanced dual sport bikes from KTM, Sherco, etc. are most likely very close to being dirt bikes with the parts needed to make them street legal - but likely they lean more for riding in the dirt and won't make a great street bike. The average entry level dual sport from the Japanese makers are not in that same league for dirt riding....but can be ridden in the dirt. If you are looking to buy a cheap/affordable used dual sport....I am sure you can find something suitable for a 25 mile ride to work. The older Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki dual sport bikes are good bikes and will last a very long time if you maintain them properly. And you can Poo Poo water cooled bikes if you want.....however that is what it takes to make a performance bike fast and competitive and durable - modern water cooled bikes will outperform the older air cooled bikes. That is true of dirt bikes, street bikes, sport bikes, touring bikes...even Cruisers. My last dual sport bike was a Kawasaki Super Sherpa 250cc...it was air cooled and simple and it worked really well for local rides - but it was not a great dirt bike, not a great street bike....and the water cooled KLX250 would outperform it in every way. And to the original issue of riding in the snow.....it is never easy even on a dual sport bike. Dual Sport tires are a compromise between what works to provide a smooth ride on the street and provide traction in the dirt, and the tires don't get any kind of a bite in the snow and they will just spin and turn the snow into ice. Knobbys aren't much better if they can't dig down through the snow to the dirt, and if the ground is frozen the knobbies won't get much traction. On packed snow knobbies can get some traction....and it can make for a very exciting ride. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by MMRanch on 01/27/16 at 23:04:51 Yippes ! That tire looks dangerous ... :-[ I had a little car once (Datsun 110) with spiked snow tires on the rear. That car could do wheelies on the ice before it would spin the tires . but on wet pavement it almost impossible to drive. I found this on ebay , looks like the motor on my china ATV. Not real powerful but its reliable and tork-ey. I had one of the 200cc China street-legal dirt bikes . It was geared supper low and Vibrated something awful , but the China 250 ATV don't vibrate at all. http://www.ebay.com/itm/221992189138?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Dave on 01/28/16 at 03:46:20 [quote author=16041604091A1518135B0 link=1453658625/15#17 date=1453964691]Yippes ! That tire looks dangerous ... :-[/quote] Yep...those are the serious spikes they use in the European Ice racing. (No...those aren't dual sport bikes they use). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-yGntqn6k [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-yGntqn6k[/media] |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/28/16 at 04:36:00 That's a fun video. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/28/16 at 11:07:40 Interesting bikes... Large narrow tires front and rear... Are they hardtails? Do they even have front suspension? Peculiar rear fender... |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Dave on 01/28/16 at 11:35:24 They are adapted from Speedway motorcycles. They are very specialized bikes, 500cc, methanol fuel, no gearbox, no brakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway The speedway bikes can't get as much traction on dirt as the spiked tires do on ice. The racing is very fast...and the crashes pretty brutal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb2pj76HqKk [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb2pj76HqKk[/media] |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Dave on 01/28/16 at 12:26:26 Add brakes, a transmission, and rear shocks....and you can then go Grass Track Racing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUjjKcLuZE [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keUjjKcLuZE[/media] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohc1dqAJuhM [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohc1dqAJuhM[/media] |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by old_rider on 01/30/16 at 11:39:01 Watching them fly around the track and finally realized.... Those are THUMPERS!...... super lightweight though.... riders too.. |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 18:05:07 Well, guys, I went on one more wild and wacky adventure. This time, though, closer to home. I was holding off on really riding in the snow, but since I gave it a shot in deep snow, I thought I would try it in light snow. There was enough snow to cover the ground well-- maybe an inch or so. I took the challenge. I held it up riding down the driveway. I even held it up riding down that steep, treacherous, snow covered road that the State never got around to plowing. ::) To tell you the truth though, it was tricky for sure. Actually, I had to scrape my logger boots to the ground to hold it back, and I lost track of where my rear brake was for awhile. Got myself in as sticky, or rather, a slippy, for sure. Once I got past that stage of the fight, I played traction control with my front brake. Wouldn't let it lock. Slow it just enough to keep it under control. Once I got to the bottom, I was okay. Still snow covered gravel for awhile, but relatively level. Once I reached the end of the snow, I called my folks to tell them I made it, but I didn't have a clue how I was going to get back up the mountain. I went to town to buy some bolts, but they were closed. I thought I could use some gas, but I didn't. It took less than $2 worth. So I accomplished nothing on my excuse of an errand. ::) Gotta have an excuse, you know. I didn't even get a good second test drive for the forks as the road was wet and potentially hazardous. Well, I gave it a shot coming back up the mountain, and that's where it got tough. I wasn't uphill for long before she spun out from under me and turned half 'round as I'm left picking myself and bike off the slick ground. Bent my clutch handle a bit. With that ice-slick snow, it wasn't the easiest picking it up. Its a good thing I had loggers on. Too bad I don't have loggers for tires. ::). To some degree, that snow was so slick that I had to jam the heels of those loggers into the dirt in order to secure traction. Now, considering the traction of loggers, THAT'S SLICK! I straddled that thing and wrestled it up that hill. Now that's a workout! Try to do that with a full-size Harley, and you're liable to find yourself slid backwards off a cliff. :o. That's the value with a light bike. They can be manhandled in a pinch. Kinda hard on the engine and clutch. :-/ It's not at all about revving it and burning up the clutch. It's about lugging the motor and simply wearing out the clutch trying to ease the thing uphill. Oh, well, If I like to work on bikes.... :-/ ::) Its a good thing I didn't have tall gearing, or I would have really been in trouble. Another interesting fact is that I used the shoulder of the road (the side with the cliff :o) a good amount of the time because it was unpacked and loose, there was something hang onto. Dropped it a second time on that hill and bent the other peg (already broke the other one a long time ago). I think it was past the steep part. I doubt it was very steep at all there. Eventually, I made it up that hill, and passed my parents in their UTV. I guess they were getting the mail and checking on me. I finally made it to the house, but not without a few rest breaks along my struggle. My parents got to see me fight the thing a few times as they followed me up the driveway. Now, since I've told my story about using my little beat up cruiser for a dirt bike (scrambler), I've been wondering about technique. You don't have to tell me if you don't want to. I'm wondering if I shouldn't look it up myself. It seems that keeping a little speed helps keep the bike upright, but if you do lose control, the crash is worse. Seems more risky. I probably would have crashed anyway with a running go, and it would have been worse. Another thing is foot position. It seems, both from my experience, including today, and what I recall and was taught, that keeping one's feet on the pegs, and legs against the tank helps stability. However, once you get into trouble, what can be done in that position? Not much, it seems. Part of the trip was fun. Giving a little gas in the snow where it's level gives a nice, controllable mini snow burnout. Makes for good practice holding the bike up in tough conditions. Now I just need to do this every single day. :D. Well... I'm not quite that enthused, but It should help my biking skills, anyway. Just as long as I can keep from breaking things and getting hurt. :-/ Didn't get hurt today, at least :) And that knee still hasn't healed, but through all that, I think its actually doing better. :-? Guess it needed some physical therapy. ;D I think I'll mostly hold off on the mountain though, especially if there's no way of getting back up. ;) At least I don't have to fix my turn signals again, AFAIK. :) Maybe I could use a little dual sport or turn my Savage into a real scrambler. I've found that rear tire to be the most trouble. I found that snow riding works best driving level or downhill. Downhill is tricky and dangerous, but uphill can be a nightmare. You spin out, and when you spin out, the bike goes places... sometimes too far. The front didn't seem to give ANYWHERE near the trouble of the rear of the bike. The front just mostly goes with it unless there's too much brake pressure. I wonder if its more in the handlebars, the legs, abs, or something else. You don't really have to tell me. I wonder how most people figure this out. Maybe they just do it as kids on little dirt bikes till they figure it out. Should I figure it out myself like they do? :-/ Should I buy a book? Do they write books on dirt bike technique? |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Art Webb on 02/13/16 at 08:40:07 Dirt bike technique buy or modify a bike so it is rideable in slick stuff this doesn't just mean knobbies, it means pegs that are UNDER you, not IN FRONT of you, this is important because in the slick stuff you stand on the pegs, squeeze the tank with your knees, and steer by shifting your weight this is true in sand, mud, and even more in snow don't hamfist the throttle if you go down. don't try to stay with the bike as you can see, the Savage isn't really a suitable mount, stock, for these conditions There is a reason dirt bikes are built the way they are |
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Title: Re: Playing in the Snow; Thinking about a Dual Spo Post by Drestakil on 02/13/16 at 08:54:27 That little Yamaha TW200 with its big truck tires should do pretty good in the snow. I doesn't go all that fast but if you're riding it to work in the snow, no one should be going all that fast. If I can sell my extra Savage and an old Honda, I might get one. I'm like you, I'd want the kick start so that would mean an older model. |
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