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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1453599066 Message started by cheapnewb24 on 01/23/16 at 17:31:06 |
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Title: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/23/16 at 17:31:06 It seems that there is a belief among some in the KLR community that gearing their thumper too high risks engine damage due to lugging. http://www.klrforum.com/1987-2007-wrenching-mods/2378-16-t-front-42-t-rear-sprocket-mod.html Makes me think I should downshift a little more often when driving the Subaru on hills. For example, sometimes 60 mph (2500 rpm) in 5th gear takes a lot of throttle on some of the hills we have. Just think how high cars are geared compared to most motorcycles! Does 4 or more cylinders really make them that immune to lugging? Have any Savage owners had to worry about lugging (or rather, overloading) their engines to death at high speeds with alternate gearings? Can lugging occur at 3500+ rpm? Can lugging occur at redline? ;D ;D By the way, does anyone think Suzuki's gearing choice was wise? Did they hit the sweet spot when it comes to acheiving top speed? Does gearing higher help top speed or hurt it? Do we just gear it higher for cruising? Now, I remember... some of you have talked about having to drop to 4th with some taller gears in order to reach top speed? :-? |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by pg on 01/23/16 at 18:48:10 747F727667797260752523170 wrote:
I just traveled 780 miles the last 2 days on a trip to Orlando with a 17T cs and the standard rear sprocket which is a 43T. The gears are stretched out farther; but, their is not much more of a risk of "lugging it". I averaged 78 mph on the interstate with about 4,800 rpms. The 17T is the biggest one that can fit on the front and I had to dremmel the sprocket cover to make it fit. Incidentally, it was 37 degrees on the Gulf of Mexico this morning in Panama City and I don't think it made it to 50 by the time I got to Orlando. :( But, it is still better than looking at snow. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by MMRanch on 01/23/16 at 18:54:28 By the way, does anyone think Suzuki's gearing choice was wise? No way they got it right . There ain't no cruising gear ! Yea , it goes faster in 4th when it does get a cruising gear , and that is EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD BE. ;) Would have been nice if Suzuki had made the jumps between gears third an fourth and 5th a little bigger. :) At one time I had the bigger front pulley , the smaller rear pulley , and a really large diameter rear tire. According to my Garmin GPS I let second gear wind out to 80 mph before shifting to third. With that same gearing 5th gear didn't have no problem long as I kept above 55 on the speedometer , trouble was that was 70 something on the GPS. Fact is with the speedometer showing 65mph I was passing everything on the Interstate . But the stock motor don't have power enough to pull that much gear. So I went back to the original rear pulley , and left it there for many thousands of miles. Suzuki should have give us a real Interstate gear of an Overdrive. but since they didn't ---- Kawaski inversely did without even knowing it ! ;D |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by badwolf on 01/24/16 at 15:41:06 There may be something to this lugging thing. I now have both Kaw pulleys, and a 150/90 15 rear tire. It turns less than 3400 rpm at 60mph in 5th. After 800 miles of LOW rpm riding to play with the new gearing, cruising speeds as low as 35 in 5th, I had to add 8oz of oil for the first time ever. I am going to make it a point to not go under 40 in 4th or 50 in 5th and see what happens. There may be a limit to how slow we can thump! |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by MMRanch on 01/24/16 at 16:27:23 BadWolf you wrote : cruising speeds as low as 35 in 5th, Surely you mean 35 on the speedometer ... not real 35 like on a GPS ? I suspect your at least 20% over stock on your true ground speed compared to the speedometer. remember : you can always time true ground speed with the Interstate mile markers and a 60 second timer. 8-) |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by badwolf on 01/24/16 at 18:03:20 MM, I basicly have to ignore the stock speedo now & go by the gps all the time. I built a holder for a android phone w/a gps app over the bar clamps. 35 in 5th here in Fla on the flat actually feels pretty smooth. Won't make a habbit of it thou. I'll keep the revs up a little higher and try not to go under 3G in 4th or 5th. I have been getting 6o to 65 mpg over the road, and next time I have the ex pipe off I'm going to mount a fitting on the adapter for a O2 sensor. I have a mixture gauge from when I built an airplane that reads on ratios 13 to 1 = max power, 18 to 1 = best mileage. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by Kris01 on 01/24/16 at 19:34:09 35 mph in 5th gear with the stock pullies and 140/80-15 rear tire will lug the engine. How are you managing to pull this off with much higher gearing? |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by badwolf on 01/24/16 at 20:12:28 That is just cruzing on the level. If I give it a lot of throttle it will chug and jerk. I didn't ride miles & miles that way, but in traffic it will do it. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by MMRanch on 01/24/16 at 20:24:15 BadWolf :) I'm interested in you O2 sensor thingie ? I've experimented with jet sizes trying to find the best MPG. I'd like to know how lean can you go before the "Demising Returns Occur " :-? I've never found the need for more power - but - have tried to get 60+ mpg every way I can think of. ::) I'm running 45 Primary and 150 Main , now The Flat ground around here is full of hills ! ;D |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by badwolf on 01/24/16 at 22:13:51 MM, My gauge is a old analog one I think I got it from JC Whittney back in the mid 90's. New ones are digital like this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/White-Auto-Car-2-52mm-Red-Digital-Color-20-LED-Air-Fuel-Ratio-Gauge-Meter-/161198781551?hash=item258832346f:g:JPwAAOxyUrZS1gNj&vxp=mtr When you learn to fly a small plane you learn to lean out the mixture for best cruse. I was taught 13 to 1 for power, 18 to 1 for cruse. Airplane carbs are made to be pilot adjustable, to a point. The gauges need 12v power, and hook up to a O2 gauge in your exhaust pipe. ''The Flat ground around here is full of hills !'' And I bet those hills are full of Moonshiners! |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by Dave on 01/25/16 at 04:00:42 I don't see how high gearing can seize an engine - but lugging an engine can be hard on the rings, piston and cylinder wall. When lugging occurs the expansion of the burning gasses in the cylinder is faster than the piston can move down - so you end up with really high pressures in the cylinder. The piston won't seize....but it can wear out the rings and cylinder wall faster than it should. If you get "chugging".....it is time to shift. I have the double Kawasaki pulley conversion and if I am not over 60 mph (actual)....I don't use 5th gear. It is OK to thump along on level ground with light throttle - but don't operate the engine where you can feel/hear the engine working hard at low rpm. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by Kris01 on 01/25/16 at 06:22:18 Badwolf, I would think that atmospheric pressure, octane, etc. would play a part in an aircraft engine so you could lean it out to 18:1. That afr probably wouldn't be good for a motorcycle. You may end up burning a hole in the piston. I wonder how lean Suzuki builds these things at the factory? |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by Serowbot on 01/25/16 at 08:36:33 I find myself revving more than I used to. Not sure if it's all the talk about low oil pressures at lower rpm, or if I'm trying to get my Savage to match my Sportster output... It just seems happier when it's off the "putt putt" rhythm... I'm rarely into 5th before 55mph... w/ stock gearing and 140/90 tire |
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Title: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 14:00:46 Took a while to get to sleep last night over thinking about this exciting topic. There's a lot that can be said about this, but I'll start by saying this: I think that the factory Savage top gear is too short. It does not increase top speed appreciably, and may even be counter-productive. Take a look at this: http://www.royalenfields.com/2009/02/new-royal-enfield-adds-performance.html http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2sbE8ZrwLa4/SZn1HUAN-8I/AAAAAAAABiE/jh1_fo9amDo/s400/Bullet+power+chart+copy.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2sbE8ZrwLa4/SZn1M0B1qvI/AAAAAAAABiM/PVB9e_2Cf6A/s400/Bullet+torque+curve+copy.jpg Now, that little 500 thumper can come mighty close in performance to our 650, but it's top gear is substantially higher. It's power/torque curves are a little different, but they are similar overall. At 6500, it is rated around 108 mph. Not sayin' it'll do that. Just showing that it's taller geared than ours. (97.3 mph at same rpm.) (Check Gearing Commander). From what I've seen in videos, the Enfield can reach 140-145 kph (86-90 mph). This is pretty close to our top speed. It has been suggested on this forum that because the stock bike can't reach redline, there is not much (or anything) to be gained from increasing gearing. This is close to the truth, but may not be exactly the case in my opinion. Supposedly, stock, our bike reaches 80.8 mph at it's power peak of 5400 rpm. Funny thing is, from what I gather, our Savage can generally do quite a bit better than 81 mph. ;). By the time it's crossed the 85 mark, she's doing about 5700. By the time 90 comes-- if you can squeeze that out of a stocker-- she is doing over 6k. For such a long stroke, that's too much. :-/ If you guys have an accurate way of measuring both ground speed and engine speed, and, under varying conditions, you are able to regularly even approach 6k in top gear, much less redline, on a stock engine (no hot cam or anything), you are geared shorter than necessary, perhaps even too short. While top speed might not increase much, it's not likely to decrease much either from increasing the gearing. I don't care if you push 10,000 rpms out of that poor thing, it's not going to help the top speed. The power curve, with stock settings, is done by about 5800. Doing 6k on a stock engine is generally counterproductive, especially with our weird gearing. As long as you can reliably reach, maintain, and not exceed the plateau range of the horsepower curve, he theoretical top speed attainable for those instantaneous conditions will neither increase nor decrease appreciably due to any change in gearing. Furthermore, as long as you are able to reliably reach and maintain the plateau (mid 5k range) under a reasonable range of load/road conditions (light headwind/grade/extra weight), there is not much reason top-end-wise, to be any lower in gearing. Someone talked about the 140/90-15 tire decreasing top speed. I wonder if he was considering actual top speed or indicated top speed, as indicated speed would decrease. Acutual speed shouldn't decrease substantially, assuming tire friction is the same. I would take a guess that even the 17/43 chain conversion would not decrease actual top speed much in top gear-- maybe by only a few mph??? At 5k, it would be doing 87.5 mph. 5k is not far from the peak, but it is a little low. In 4th, however, the top speed ought to be reachable on level ground. As far as wear is concerned, wouldn't engine stresses be worse due to engine speed compared to the stresses of engine load? I'd think so. Of course, this conversation doesn't mean much if you never get the bike past 45 mph. :D Here's power/torque curves for the Savage that various members have posted. Many of them have mild mods like muffler, air, and carb tuning. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1185590369 http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o147/klx650sm2002/horsepower3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Odar1/Odars%20Savage/Dynobeforeafter.jpg http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1243819864 http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/russ_diamond_jim/dyno1.jpg http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh128/russ_diamond_jim/dynorunS40dj.jpg Any comments? |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 14:24:02 Looking at the first two savage dyno pictures, the sweet spot looks like it's from 5k to 5.5k. After 5500, the bottom drops out. :-? Interesting. Another interesting thing is that the next to last picture shows peak hp around 75 mph. That's just too low. :-? Oh, wait a minute, someone in that thread suggested that the dyno for that one might have been done in 4th gear. Interestingly, that corresponds to about 5400 rpm on the nail, and it's rather definite or peaky. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Oldfeller on 04/03/16 at 15:32:37 5th gear is useless for top speed or power, it is actually slower than 4th gear. It is good for loafing along though ..... |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 15:40:27 How is that?!?! Or why? Maybe rider weight plays into this? Maybe they geared the Savage best for 2-up riding? Isn't that a little unreasonable? I doubt people are fond of running their Royal Enfields in 4th gear at 85 mph given their power curve. Using 5th gear at this speed seems very fitting, and if that little 500 can do it, surely our big 650 can do it. Wait a minute, Oldfeller! Your bike is well modded. You've got plenty of power. Do you have the 17/43 chain conversion or something? Something is not adding up. I'd say fifth gear is far from useless once you get up to 60 mph. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Serowbot on 04/03/16 at 16:59:12 Any top gear that runs the bike out of horsepower can be considered an overdrive. A taller top gear could give a lower rpm cruise speed at say 70mph, but our bike isn't designed as a highway cruiser... ...and if a stock RE gets a higher top speed than a Savage,.. it's falling off a cliff.... ;D |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 17:38:29 Oh yeah?! Watch this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKDglOZPquM [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKDglOZPquM[/media] |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by gizzo on 04/03/16 at 17:41:54 7462756870656873070 wrote:
You got that right! ;D Many, many machines will pull harder in the lower gear than top. It's no biggie. It is what it is. I have a feeling that even if you got the cabbage to pull top whack in top gear, once you sat a 200lb carcass on it with it's knees in the breeze, any relationship the dyno figures have with the real world would sail out the window. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by gizzo on 04/03/16 at 17:47:53 7E75787C6D73786A7F2F291D0 wrote:
Sadly, that doesn't prove anything. RE speedos are famously optimistic so I'd call that 140 reading 130 real world KPH so that's 80mph and is a much more likely figure. My Continental GT with modified inlet, exhaust and Power Commander is still only good for 90mph and that's with a 130lb rider tucked away out of the wind. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 17:50:11 But... But... :-/ :-/ :-/ How are you supposed to go faster in the dead part of the power curve (approaching redline) than in the sweet spot? Weight and wind resistance only matters if it causes the engine to bog down to it's sweet spot. Doesn't the Savage easily pull 80 in top gear up Mount Everest, plowing the ground with a 200 lb anchor? ;D |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 17:54:21 312B2F2D2C12233036302B262527420 wrote:
Sadly, that doesn't prove anything. RE speedos are famously optimistic so I'd call that 140 reading 130 real world KPH so that's 80mph and is a much more likely figure. My Continental GT with modified inlet, exhaust and Power Commander is still only good for 90mph and that's with a 130lb rider tucked away out of the wind. [/quote] Okay, it wasn't really supposed to mean it beat the Savage anyway. Point is, it's a smaller motor pulling a taller gear. But... if it can only do 80, it makes me wonder. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 17:58:17 I'm tempted to pull together some used chains and sprockets to give this whole tall gearing thing a try-- at least as an experiment. I've got twisties and steep backroads. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by gizzo on 04/03/16 at 18:05:37 3C373A3E2F313A283D6D6B5F0 wrote:
Wonder what? It's an old fashioned 2 valve engine that makes around 18 rear wheel horsepower with sit up and beg styling... Whaddaya expect from it? Good luck with the chain and sprocket tests. Should be fun. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 18:10:36 The new 500 RE's are rated over 25 hp. The chart shows over 27. It looks like torque is close to 30. This is comparable with what some Savages can do. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by gizzo on 04/03/16 at 18:23:24 They rate it at the crankshaft, not the rear wheel. Some hefty driveline losses there and proven with dyno sessions by REal owners, not interwebs browsers. But that's neither here nor there, we are comparing cabbages and lemons. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/03/16 at 18:44:50 They still have a taller gear than we do! ;D |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Serowbot on 04/03/16 at 23:06:50 If I put on a size 14 shoe,... will I run faster?... Hmmmmm?..... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by verslagen1 on 04/03/16 at 23:09:59 3E283F223A2F22394D0 wrote:
no but you'll ski faster 8-) |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Serowbot on 04/03/16 at 23:12:48 5A495E5F404D4B49421D2C0 wrote:
no but you'll ski faster 8-)[/quote] Sure,.. ....off a cliff... like I said... Everything's faster off a cliff... Maybe not cooking... .. or Scrabble... okay,.. not everything...:-? |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by gizzo on 04/04/16 at 02:25:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-LBI4wUA8k |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Oldfeller on 04/04/16 at 02:28:32 53585551405E5547520204300 wrote:
You are not listening ...... for maximum speed pick up (acceleration) do your all your major work in 3rd gear, shift to 4th and pick up a little extra top end speed, shift to 5th and lose some top end speed, but pick up "some" better gas mileage. My gearing is stock, my engine is not but all this still applies to stock bikes as well. None of us have the raw hp to make 5th gear work like you would like to think it would. 5th gear is for loafing around on interstates and 55mph roads. Shifting into 5th before then is counter-productive and if you do it before 45mph you are actually lugging your engine some, which is mildly harmful. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/04/16 at 06:10:41 What about shifting into 5th at 60 mph? 70? 75? 80??? When is 5th gear of any use? :-? Hutch said he held 95 in 5th with the 17/43 chain conversion, and that is pretty tall gearing. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1174239333 |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Art Webb on 04/04/16 at 07:56:01 I held an indicated 95 on mine, stock, no mods, IRC rear tire Then I put on a 140/90, bags, and a big windshield and dropped the top speed to an indicated 75-80 MPH, depending on wind windshield less it'd hit an indicated 85-90 depending on wind it is not gearing limited, it is power limited, understand that, adding a taller gear will lower your rpm at 70, but not raise your top speed with a stock engine Yes, a taller gear will make it more PLEASANT at 70-75, but will not add speed, and adding too much gear will actually slow it down more at the top end |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/04/16 at 10:00:08 Didn't I say at the beginning of this thread that you won't gain much, but you wouldn't lose it either? ::) If you're speedometer was accurate with stock gearing (some are not from what I read), then, if you're able to reach and maintain 95 under reasonable conditions (not downhill or tailwind), then you might be able to gain a little more top end with modestly taller gearing. Why??? It's simple. At 95, you're close to redline and you're not making as much horsepower as you would a little lower down in rpm. Now, if, by chance, the power curve behaves differently on the road as compared to on the dyno, then the situation may be different. If you're getting a top end boost somehow with all that wind, the situation would be different. Doing 6k rpm with a 3.5 inch stroke is kinda hard on the engine, is it not? If the speedometer were 5 mph optimistic with the stock tire, the situation would be different as well. However, doing even 90 mph with stock setup is past the engine's prime. One may not lose top speed with modest gear increases in some cases, and may even stand to gain, but, I will go with you on this one. If you're having a hard time pulling 80 mph actual with the big tire, and all that gear, you've lost a little top-end. Therefore, tall gearing may not be right for your situation. I ride a naked bike. I will probably put leather bags on it for practical reasons. This is starting to make sense now. Suzuki probably designed the bike to be able to top out in fifth under any typical condition that would likely be thrown at it, including big windshields. They didn't gear it to push it's limits with someone hunkered down in the seat. They didn't want to risk it bogging. And... they probably wanted quick acceleration and easy city driving too. Hmmm... Perhaps Suzuki engineers kept 5th gear stupidly low (4th-5th gap small) because they knew the EPA would downjet the carb. Ahh... I've got it! They were accommodating to the anemic California model even more, right? The bike was designed for basic commuting and beginners. Despite their modest gesture of a highway gear, top end and highway rpms weren't high on the priority list compared to performance at lower speeds. And perhaps Hutch's success had to do with things like lack of windshield and other wind catchers (assumedly), low body weight, and tuning/power mods. Maybe this gearing stuff is a very individual thing. Am I getting warm? |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/04/16 at 10:07:22 3A292F2C3E39395B0 wrote:
By the way, Art, were you doing 95 in 4th or 5th gear? |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Oldfeller on 04/04/16 at 12:20:36 73787571607E7567722224100 wrote:
5th gear is of marginal use to save fuel (miles per gallon) at any speed at or above 50mph. That is it's only use. 5th does not go faster or accelerate quicker --- it just saves gas. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Kris01 on 04/04/16 at 18:11:23 Let me sum this up: Wind resistance wreaks havoc on ANY motorcycle. We just ain't aerodynamic. It will take a lot more hp that we don't have to raise the top speed. Wind resistance rises exponentially as speed increases. Double your speed, quadruple the resistance! ;) |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by old.indian on 04/04/16 at 19:54:38 If you are looking for top speed, why are you ridding a single cylinder ??? If you are looking to do a ton for hours on end you need something more than a 652cc single cylinder with the aerodynamics of a refrigerator. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by MMRanch on 04/04/16 at 22:10:18 CheepNewB you know instead a chain and sprockets ... you can put a two (2) tooth bigger front pulley on you S-40. It takes a little doing on your part but its easy to do . The front pulley off a Kawaski 454 or 500 belt drive unit has the same splines - but you'll have to cut the thickness of the pulley some. ;) I've done two of them and find a angle grinder works eats up the excess in a hurry. ;D Fact is Dave has the larger front and a smaller rear pulley. The rear off a Kawaski 750 belt drive (early 80's) has the same teeth as our belts. So the larger front pulley will have you rear wheel scooted all the way to the front of the swingarm . doing both Kawaski pullys will have your tire at the back of the swing arm . Yea using the original belt ! ;) I had both on a stock engine once --- it was too much tall gear , I did 80mph (gps) in second gear once just to see how high it would go. But 5th gear still pulled all the hills in my area , including the same one that my S-10 PU (2.5L) would only do 45mph over-the-top speed no matter how fast I'd hit the bottom at. :o |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by HovisPresley on 04/04/16 at 22:12:26 Aerodynamics of a refrigerator ;D Well, this not only qualifies on the aerodynamic front, but also looks part 'fridge as well...... except that a 'fridge has a brighter light bulb.....and yes, I own one......and yes, they are aesthetically challenging :-[ ;Dhttp://i66.tinypic.com/15vktj.jpg As for speeds/gearing, the last thing on this Savage owner's mind is the top speed, but instead enjoying the character and charm of the engine when it's 'singing'. The mention of doing 85 on an Enfield Bullet :o ......say goodbye to the fillings in your teeth and say hello to your 'piles' of discomfort. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Serowbot on 04/04/16 at 23:05:07 Hovis, that front fender cracks me up... It's like Jaws!... ;D |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by HovisPresley on 04/04/16 at 23:13:28 Apparently you can use it to scoop up stray dogs and chuck them over your shoulder....or maybe Google Translate got that wrong ;D |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by gizzo on 04/04/16 at 23:26:18 Hovis, you have.....interesting....taste in motorbikes. I kind of dig the MZ too. Love that death ray headlight. I gotta say, the vibration from my Enfield isn't too horrible. Not enough to shake the fillings out, for sure. It seems to vary from bike to bike, and depends on whether the trained monkey in the factory built a good or a bad crank. Other owners complain about parts falling off and having to fill handlebars with lead shot or even selling the bike. I guess I got lucky. |
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Title: Re: Top speed and gearing... Post by Art Webb on 04/05/16 at 08:23:24 3D363B3F2E303B293C6C6A5E0 wrote:
By the way, Art, were you doing 95 in 4th or 5th gear? [/quote] either / or it'd hit 95 in 4th it'd hit 95 in 5 95 was IT and that was feet on rear pegs laying on tank sitting up was an automatic drop to 90 |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by verslagen1 on 04/05/16 at 08:51:51 I suggest you quit your b!tchin' and twist it. even the stocker will do 88 uphill with a severe handicap... me! beast does 95 up the same hill but I had to let off cause traffic was beginning to be like a slalom course. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/06/16 at 22:10:08 4F5C4B4A55585E5C5708390 wrote:
Well, Slavy, since you obviously love this argument so much, I'll keep it going just for you. ;D Do you pin your car in top gear at normal speeds? Or do you downshift? Higher gears are not only for going fast, but for saving gas and (sometimes) making it easier on the engine. If you really need acceleration and you've got a hill, then grab a lower gear. I went up a grade today in fifth. Seemed a little easier in fourth though. Still, does it really matter that much?It's not like you're lugging at 3500-4000 or more rpm, right? Do you really need to be able to do everything in top gear? Do bicyclists use top gear for everything? If he does, he is either one tough cookie, or his gearing is a bit short. Is it better to let a 3.5 inch stroke engine rev to 5k all the time or to hold it at high loads? It seems that we're in between a rock and a hard spot. Drag it too low and you lug it because it's a poor little one-lunger. Rev it, and you have to think, "Isn't that hard on it?" Now, isn't it true that the forces on an engine increase exponentially with engine speed or something like that? Or am I getting things mixed up? So, for our thumper, wouldn't revving be a bit worse than loading? Anybody wore out a Savage by loading? How about by high revving? Always reading here about somebody warning that Savages use oil when they're run fast on the highway. Is this more from work/load or from revving? Slavy, If you can go just as fast and save gas and make things easier on your motor, would you do it? Now, I've got twisties and hills, so I can't say for sure how I would like taller gearing. You gotta have some revs for twisties and hills. I'm going to guess I'll like the bigger tire when I put it on, but I'm not sure about a 17/43 or anything like that. How big a crankshaft journal does one need before he decides it's better not to rev it like a Kawasaki Ninja. ;D How long a stroke does one need before he can load it down without fearing that he's ruining his crank bearings? Can a big-stroked thumper win? Or is she hopelessly caught between conflicting forces: lugging, which tries to beat her to death, and revving, which tries to sling her off into pieces? |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/06/16 at 22:24:27 Interesting how a Sportster, with a stroke of nearly 4 inches, can make so much power at even higher engine speeds than our thumper. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/h-d/harley_davidson_xl_883_sportster%2001.htm Wonder if it is healthy to rev it that hard so often. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by Oldfeller on 04/07/16 at 04:33:22 Reminds me of Bill, he does..... |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/07/16 at 08:58:10 ;D Ahh... Bill and his magic red oil? |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/07/16 at 10:29:56 Here's an interesting article: http://www.400gt.com/articles/Metal/stress.htm Haven't studied it really well yet. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine!? Post by old.indian on 04/07/16 at 12:51:47 575C5155445A5143560600340 wrote:
Judging from what I'm seeing as I dis-assemble my engine, the Savage 652cc suffers from serious breathing problems. The exuast port is the villain. No wonder it runs out of steam at 6K RPM. It can't get the exuast gas out of the compression chamber fast enough. The power band would go higher and further with a opened up exuast port. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by MMRanch on 04/07/16 at 15:42:16 Indian If the header pipe had a bigger ID. would that fix it ? _ |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by old.indian on 04/07/16 at 16:04:23 7F6D7F6D60737C717A320 wrote:
Not nearly as much as opening up the exuast port. As far as I'm concerned, opening up the exuast port is THE key to maximizing the potential effects of a new cam and carb work. A larger header would be a plus when combined with every thing else, but would not make up for a restrictive exuast port. (You can only force so much hot air through a 1/4 inch pipe as compared to a 5/8 inch pipe.) ;) |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by verslagen1 on 04/07/16 at 17:30:49 don't look at the valve spec's, I don't think you can take it. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/07/16 at 17:45:08 From driving it today, 4th gear seems to pull better and easier under load at regular highway speeds. But we still need a cruising gear. 5th does the job somewhat, but we could use a little more. If the gap between 4th and 5th had been simply doubled, the gearing would probably be just right, wouldn't it? It would place 55 mph right around 3400, right around the crest of the torque curve and the minimum for high speed travel. Honestly, though, I can't say it's good for really hard loads, more for cruising. When I change my tire, it should make a noticeable difference, especially since that old tire of mine doesn't have the diameter it used to. I've estimated that the gearing difference with the new tire will be almost 6.5%. From the charts, it looks like I'm almost getting a new gear. 4th will be just somewhat lower than where 5th was. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by old.indian on 04/07/16 at 17:48:55 677463627D7076747F20110 wrote:
Yeah, I know. But, nobody said we wanted to design a new head, just do the best with what we got........ |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by gizzo on 04/07/16 at 22:51:06 38333E3A2B353E2C39696F5B0 wrote:
There's your problem right there. Too many gears to choose from. My cabbage has a 4 speed box and its f..ing awesome. Riding a big single is about popping around not caring how fast the others go,changing gears if you feel like it and looking and sounding good. Personally, if I want to wick it up, I jump on a different bike.... |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by Art Webb on 04/08/16 at 07:18:03 yes a Taller gear would have been better in some ways, and you always have 4 th for passing, but we got what we got, and that's all what we got, so what the hell, gotta live with it |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/08/16 at 09:43:39 I remember here somebody tried to transplant a SV650 gear or some similar model, and failed. Don't you think Suzuki or somebody, would have made something with the right measurements? Why would the LS650 be so unique in its gear measurements. Of course, there are so many measurements that have to match, is there any hope? :-/ Needle in a haystack when the needle is a guess. :( |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by badwolf on 04/08/16 at 15:50:38 I know I am getting old and not interested in riding fast all the time, and I don't even know WHERE I would ride to see if my bike would do 95 or the full ton, but if you want to ride that way YOU BOUGHT THE WRONG BIKE! The Savage was built as a cruiser. If you just have to go faster on it, install-- clip-ons 140/90 rear tire rear set pegs & controls a seat & tank you can live with a Kaw front pulley a small headlight style faring & windscreen a gps speedo w/tach Yea, it sounds simple enough. OR JUST BUY A NINJA OR SOME OTHER SPORTBIKE. The Savage is a THUMPER! It is a cruiser! Live it! Relish it! Put a Dyna on it and cruise down the road basking in it's thumping glory!!!! |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by MMRanch on 04/08/16 at 20:48:37 Put a Dyna on it and cruise down the road basking in it's thumping glory!!!! + 1 You can still do the Kawasaki front pulley --- for more Cruse-ability . The speedometer will be off about 10% , but that is easy to live with. 8-) |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/08/16 at 22:01:47 I don't go crazy fast anyway. I can't say for sure I've ever done 85 indicated, much less 95. 60-70 is my typical highway speed, and 75 is my typical top speed for the slab. I don't reach 80 often. I just want to optimize my gearing. That's all. The drive to tinker.... to tweak It would be cool if my bike could get great gas mileage and low engine stress in the 60-70 mph range without sacrificing much in the get-up-and-go department. Besides, unless you have a big, smooth road, 80 on the Savage is rather wobbly. |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by badwolf on 04/09/16 at 11:57:30 Alright I admit it, I loved driving fast when I was younger. My first rides on a friend's then new Mach 3, riding my friend that owns a dealership's GS1100 in the early 80's when you lost the 85mpn speedo in second, and you keep going til the front wheel comes up again hitting 5th. You know your doing 140 or so and the damm front wheel still lifts when you shift hard. WOW fast bikes are great when you are young and immortal! Now I have about 450,000 miles on 2 wheels. I have left the fast riding to the younger guys. I love the sound of my thumper cruising down the road. I have geared it up with both Kaw pulleys and a 150/90-15 rear tire, I have a solo seat and box/backrest and windshield. I don't go scratching around every corner.(do they even use that term anymore?) Actually crusing the flat, straight roads in S. Fla on my bike is like going down the road on a Lazy-Boy with a windshield. BUT I LOVE IT!!!! The sound of that single thumping thru the Dyna is music to my ears. I know Dave's bike looks great and handles even better. I have seen bobbers on this site that look wild (for 10 mile hops). But to go to Columbia SC next weekend for a derby tournament, doing about 1300 miles in 5 days, mostly the first and last, I NEED to take stuff with me. I'm not going back to a Gold Wing where if you're packing lite you only take the 2 slice toaster. But I think I should be able to take the min. for a week's trip. Yes I know even with a good rainsuit you get wet when it rains. Did 40 miles thru a downpour last Sat. But compared to riding in a box, going down the road on a bike is almost like flying! You don't have to turn in a corner, you just think and lean and the bike and you are one. Riding a motorcycle, when done with common sense, can be a soul filling experience. When done carelessly, it can be terrifying, painful, and extremely unforgiving! I won't seriously pick on anyone who rides, on a scooter, Gold Wing, chopper, dirt bike, or even a sportbike. (I will however complain when they pass me inches away at 100 mph faster than I am going!) The point is to get out and RIDE!! If you have and like a S40 or Savage and want to mod it to your personal taste, style, and budget, GO FOR IT!!! The basic bike can be like raw clay to a sculptor. The changes and mods you can do are endless. But don't lose sight that it is a motorcycle, not just a tool or a work of art,,,,,,RIDE IT!!! |
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Title: Re: High gearing seizes engine/gearing for speed. Post by cheapnewb24 on 04/10/16 at 22:15:22 Good way to draw a close to a topic. Not sure if it will rest yet, though. ;) Man, you sure have tall gearing. That's even higher than the 17/43. You must have one of the tallest geared Savages around. I sure would like to know how well the bike handles it. You're approaching Harley-esque gearing. ;D. I can say pulling out in second or third on mine without knowing it can happen (maybe not so much from a dead stop). I've turned out onto the road before in second or third, and it worked fine. The thing is that you're slipping the clutch anyway to turn so that by the time you're on the road, you have just enough speed to go without bucking. Kinda feels cool when you pull out in second and it sometimes gives that Harley-esque feel (not saying I've ever actually rode a Harley ::)). Healthy on the engine? Not sure. :-? |
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