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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Rotella as fork oil? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1452127820 Message started by cheapnewb24 on 01/06/16 at 16:50:20 |
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Title: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/06/16 at 16:50:20 Somebody suggested that Rotella can also be used as fork oil. Any comments on this? Would 5W40 syn or 15w40 dino be better? I've got both. I might have some old Dextron laying around. I weigh 200 lbs, if that makes a difference. I deal with rough roads, and I'd like secure handling on the tarmac. One of my seals is blown (or full of dirt), for those who don't know. Can using heavier oil increase the risk of blowing the seals, or is it the other way around? I read that Bill likes to say to use fork oil due to stiction, Is motor oil slicker than ATF in that regard? Would it be a good idea to experiment with those thin Energy Star motor oils in the forks? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by prechermike on 01/07/16 at 06:39:56 Since no one has chimed in, I will. I think ATF is a suitable substituent. Not sure about the rotella thing. Someone who knows more will let you know, just trying to stop you from doing something like I would, probably end up dumb. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/07/16 at 09:43:27 I wouldn't use a multi-viscosity oil for the forks. Damping rod forks already have undesirable characteristics, why further complicate this poor performance by introducing an oil that will change its performance during use? If you are looking for an inexpensive fork oil you can use ATF Type F. But given that you'll probably change the fork oil once, why not use actual fork oil? We're only talking about a few dollars difference. There are probably other place to save money. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 01/07/16 at 10:31:57 One thing for certain... fork oil is compatible with fork seals. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/07/16 at 21:46:05 3832363C373E3A336D6B6F5F0 wrote:
Actually, multiviscosity oil should not change it's performance as much as a straight weight oil. Think varying temps and the purpose of multiviscosity oil. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 01/07/16 at 23:50:51 I doubt you could tell the difference no matter what oil you put in so do whatever makes you happy. Savage forks just aren't that good. The book says to use ATF so why not give it a shot? It's cheap and good enough for a Savage. Then swap it for motor oil, then fork oil. Do the experiment then report back. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 01/08/16 at 07:29:24 52595450415F5446530305310 wrote:
Actually, multiviscosity oil should not change it's performance as much as a straight weight oil. Think varying temps and the purpose of multiviscosity oil. ;) [/quote] Cheap is correct, multi vis oil does not actually change viscosity It is 5, 10, 15, or 20 weight oil that changes viscosity less than single weight to the point where, at NOT, it's as thick as 30,40,or 50 weight oil would be at NOT the idea that multi vis oil actuallt thickens as it gets hot is an understandable, but incorrect, idea I'd still stick with ATF oh, NOT is normal operating temperature (for an engine) just so there's no confusion |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 01/08/16 at 10:24:37 676C6165746A6173663630040 wrote:
If you are thinking that the installing a the 15W-40 Rotella is going to make your bike perform/handle better than the 15W Fork Oil or ATF, I believe you are mistaken. The 15W-40 oil will always be "too thick" too allow the forks to react to the pavement surface. And the lower the temperature drops - the thicker the oil will become and the worse the bike will handle. You will never get the fork temperature up to the 212 degree temperature where the 40 weight rating has been established for the Rotella - so the forks will never be subject to the parameters that define a what multi-viscosity oil does. The 15W rating does not establish that the 15W-40 will not be thicker than the 15 weight fork oil at lower temperatures - it is an apples/oranges comparison. Both oils will thicken as they get cold, and the 15W-40 will always be thicker than the 15 weight fork oil or ATF. The following link will help to understand this....if you want to learn more about what the multi-viscosity rating means. http://themotoroilevaluator.com/members-blog/understanding-multi-viscosity-oils/#axzz3wg5qZICd |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Serowbot on 01/08/16 at 15:54:18 Both ATF and fork oil,.. are made to have consistent compression under pressure... at any temperature... Use ATF... it's even cheaper than Rotella anyway... it's usually around 13wt... and that's real nice in forks... |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 01/08/16 at 17:58:10 +1. Mine are fine with ATF in them. However, I tried ATF in another highr performance bike not long ago and it was awful. Good when the forks were cold but when they heated up the damping went away making the bike weave and wallow. Cooled down again, no problem. Apparently modern ATF foams up in forks like the older stuff didn't. I switched over to 10w fork oil and it's lovely again. For the Cabbage, ATF is fine. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by WD on 01/09/16 at 02:02:03 I'm probably the only one here who does use engine oil in forks. I grew up on springer equipped bikes, and therefor have zero tolerance for fork dive while braking. ND30 or HD30 is alright at your body weight. I switched my forks to 60w, better, but still has noticeable dive while braking. I weigh 260 in full gear. Next test round will be 75w or 85w gear oil. After that, if I still notice dive, the forks will scrapped in favor of a springer. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/09/16 at 06:40:26 Springers don't have fork dive? :-? Stiffer springs with no damper, I am guessing? Wouldn't they bounce? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 01/09/16 at 07:36:17 The braking torque on the lower arm pushes the arm up and it resists the weight that transfers when you apply the brake. And in anticipation of your next question - springers don't handle better than modern forks, and they are heavy. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Serowbot on 01/09/16 at 08:32:00 If you have suspension in the front,.. you will have fork dive... It's a fact of gravity... :P |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by WD on 01/09/16 at 10:20:52 The epitome of a motorcycle is a UL/VL Big Twin. Factory rigid frame with well sprung seat. Factory drum brake springer fork. Flathead engine, proper generator, kick only, points ignition. Too bad they went away in model year 1948. That stated, the Savage/S40 platform can be built up to ride and handle like a proper motorcycle. Stiffer rear shocks. Heavier fork oil and more of it. Better tires run with the correct amount of air. I like around 40psi front and rear, which means no more 712F once the current one wears out. Narrower tires, 90/90-19 and 130/90-15 are as close to ideal as you'll find for stock rims. You can seriously improve its running capability, but it costs cubic dump truck loads of cash. Proper 5 angle valve job. Hot cam. Overbore. Shave the head or deck the cylinder. Port match. Intake and exhaust runner clean up. Free flowing exhaust. Better flowing carburetor with a cable operated slide or preferably butterfly valve and no slide (think S&S for Harley Davidson Sportster or K Model). You are however stuck with a weak oil pump. You can seriously improve the fit of the bike. Seat work, seat changes. Handlebar and riser swap. Grip swaps. Floorboards or forward controls. You can seriously improve the aesthetics. 7 inch sidemounted headlight. Handlebar and risers. Seat. Tires. Fenders. Taillight. Turn signals. It's your bike, your money, and your butt/back. Even with my lumbar surgeries, I'll take the ride/handling of a rigid/springer over an as issued modern "mush mobile" cruiser. Once my 4wd is back in service, my Savage is getting an irreversible full rigid frame conversion and a -2 springer. Yeah, I bleed HD black and orange. Won't own one made after 1964 though. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/09/16 at 17:39:13 Why 1964? Do tell me more about your preference for old, hardtail springer bikes. You seem to have a lot of interesting ideas to share. :-? Now you've got my attention. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by WD on 01/09/16 at 21:44:13 Last year for the anvil reliable kick only 6v ignition system. Keep a springer greased and it never wears out. And has no more than 3/16" of give under hard braking. Nearly instant brake response, grab a handful and it applies the brake. No time or energy loss due to a hard weight shift. Rigids do not squirm in turns or pitch-yaw-buck with age and miles. I can feel every bit of slop in a dual shock cruiser chassis, and I do not like it. Even brand new shock bushings have too much give in them. Your bike is either holding the lane like it is on rails or you are in the ditch. No middle ground. You had best know what you are doing riding a rigid framed motorcycle. I have well over 500k miles on them. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 01/10/16 at 07:33:54 That makes a certain sense, one day i may have to try actually riding a rigid myself |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/19/16 at 20:46:39 By the way, assuming stock rear shocks, will the forks benefit from stiffer springs? I'll be disassembling the forks anyway in order to add the boots. On the other hand, will it cause a suspension imbalance? Will using thicker fork oil cause an imbalance? I just thought about it, and it hit me-- WD is riding hardtail, right? That would make stiffer forks work better for him. However, I have the stock shocks. Front too stiff and rear too soft or vice versa can cause problems. Wouldn't thick fork oil cause rebound to be too slow too? :-/ Will it work best with rears at their stiffest and regular Dextron in the forks-- or does thicker oil help? :-/ Has anyone here tinkered with their Savage suspension enough to know? Do I just have to experiment? That might be fun. :) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/20/16 at 06:22:42 Good questions. Choosing fork oil and spring rates is both art and science. Damping Rod forks have significant limitations. From Race Tech's website: "Damping rods while inexpensive to manufacture have major limitations. To create compression damping, oil is shoved through a hole or holes. Shoving oil through holes creates very little resistance to flow at low vertical wheel velocities as when hitting a dip or gully or applying the front brakes. This allows the forks to shoot through the travel fairly easily, diving or bottoming in these situations. On the other hand when the wheel hits something square edge, especially at speed, it needs a lot of oil to pass through the damping holes very quickly. Unfortunately the nature of shoving oil through holes is that as the wheel velocity increases the damping force increases with the square of the velocity. In other words if you double the velocity you get four times the force. This means the hole basically "hydraulic locks" resulting in a harsh spike. Damping rods give the worst of both worlds; they are both too mushy and too harsh at the same time." What is the condition that you are trying to "improve" with thicker fork oil? One thing is for sure, the suspension will become harsher on sharp-edged bumps. If you are committed to thicker (heavier) oil, you might consider reworking the compression holes in the Damping Rod to keep the forks from hydrolocking. Regarding spring rates, are you looking for progressively wound springs or straight rates? Since Damping Rod forks don't have any rate-based valving, they sometimes use progressive rate springs to compensate for the lack of rate reaction. But progressive rate spring react in undesirable and sometimes unpredictable ways. For example under braking they can produce significant initial dive, followed by harshness. Straight rate springs must be carefully chosen to find the sweet spot between ride and handling. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/20/16 at 09:36:34 Here's an interesting question.... Is it better regarding safety and performance (not comfort) to have the suspension too stiff or too soft? Will hitting a high speed bump with a stiff (thick oil) front be worse than hitting it with a mushy front (thin oil)? Is there a fine goldilocks zone for safety here or can I just add thicker oil until my kidneys fall off. ;D Again, I'll probably have to experiment. There's probably a very good reason that front suspension was standard procedure before rear suspension. Those forks need to give don't they? Don't want to go flying over the handlebars at 60 mph just because I hit a little pothole. :P ::). I've listened to a video on suspension tuning which considered getting rid of bounciness. WD likes springers. How on earth do those things not bounce all over the place and not cause real problems? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 01/20/16 at 10:06:24 Springers have dampers built in on the earliest models, they were friction dampers, and later units used hydraulic ones The magic is in the geometry, not a lack of damping ability as to suspension stiffness vs compliance, there's a magic spot there too soft and you wallow around like you're riding an over ripe tomato too stiff and your tire 'skips' over road imperfections Like I said in another thread, race bike teams will spend $1000s to save a single lb, suspension is heavy There are no hardtail GP bikes |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 01/20/16 at 10:41:22 62696460716F6476633335010 wrote:
You choose......either one can cause you to lose control and get you hurt. The stock forks, with 15 wt. Fork Oil or ATF will provide suspension performance that is well within your riding ability (in fact the best Savage riders on the planet are most likely using the factory springs and recommended fork oil or ATF). Heavier springs and/or thicker oil will not make the bike better......I am not sure why you feel that you can make the bike better by putting thick motor oil in the forks? 7 out of 8 Dragon riders use the stock springs and fork oil. (I am not sure what Steve uses in his Harley forks - but I suspect it isn't Rotella. I have never seen anybody hustle a full size Harley through the corners like he can.) http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b471/Orphistle/2015%20Savage%20Trip/Rest%20area%20and%20Names2.jpg?181 |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 01/20/16 at 11:31:44 Make that 6 outta 8, while I use air springs and oil, it's from a different bike, so not stock. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 01/20/16 at 11:41:54 3B283F3E212C2A28237C4D0 wrote:
I forgot that you had changed the forks on your bike. (Get ready to respond to that potential change). |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/20/16 at 12:10:44 Like I asked in my post above, what are you trying to accomplish with the suspension changes? If you can provide specific things that you'd like to change, along with your weight and bike modifications, we might be able to suggest incremental changes. Just going to a 15-40 wt oil is a rather unscientific approach. My guess is that you wont like the effect. 53585551405E5547520204300 wrote:
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/21/16 at 11:27:21 By the way, I am getting ready to buy fork seals and boots. Any recommendations on brands? The Daystar 58 mm boots seem to be popular here. How about seal brands? Some are cheap Chinese seals. K&L makes some. Then there are some that claim to have less stiction than the others. Some seals are even pink. ;D Do I need anything besides seals? I haven't tried the pop bottle trick. I'll have to disassemble the forks to install the boots, so I may end up replacing them while I'm at it. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by pg on 01/21/16 at 13:31:29 5B505D5948565D4F5A0A0C380 wrote:
I'm not sure if you have the tool to get to the bottom of the forks. Look over the threads in the tech section. I made the one where I combined 2 long bolts and used jb weld. You'll also need some pvc to push the new seals in place, that is in the thread as well. It wasn't to bad, if I can do it anyone can. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/23/16 at 11:51:38 Welll.... In the wee hours of the morning, I finally bought my fork seal kit, (All Balls 56-166), complete with all four seals for a little over 18 bucks shipped. I also bought some Daystar series 83 fork boots for about 16 bucks shipped. The word is that the 58 series is too big for the Savage. Hutch, in particular, talked about this years ago. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1127425885/15 I haven't asked the manufacturer, though. I'll just have to see for myself. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by WD on 01/24/16 at 13:56:12 My 2003 has 12.5" Progressive rear shocks. Set as stiff as they can get, and I routinely bottom them out. Very distinct sound and feel, readily noticed. Have bottomed out hard enough to scrape the emissions canister mount on the road surface. A springer fork is a whole different world versus glide forks. Throttle knowledge and control are critical to safe handling. Tire pressure front and rear literally make or break a rigid frame and its handling characteristics. You have to know your machine stem to stern and pay attention. Modern bikes are get on and go. Traditional bikes require bolt checks, tire checks and tire alignment checks pretty much before every ride. As soon as I can swing it my spare frame will get a rigid conversion. I need to swap from torsion bar IFS to a real axle and leaf springs under my K1500 first. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/05/16 at 23:11:19 Well, I happened to look up some real viscosities, (as opposed to fake ones :D) Here's some things I found. http://mahonkin.com/~milktree/motorcycle/fork-oil.html It seems that Dexron 3 is a little more than 30 cst @ 40C, while Dexron 4 tends to be a little less than 30. Rotella T6 is 80 something cst. Bel-Ray 20 weight fork oil, if I recall from the above chart is in the 70's. I really didn't have in mind using the Rotella dino, but more likely the synthetic. I might guess it would be equivalent to 25 weight fork oil. It seems that Dexron is about 10 weight equivalent. Mix the two (a little more Dexron, perhaps), and I can get 15. :) Half and half, I guess, would be 20 weight. :-/ I can't say I'll need more than 15. Don't want to skip across the pavement and lose traction with every bump. Experimenting with different weights seems fun, though. Educational, in a touchy, feely way :) The biggest thing that I worry about is the whole anti-foam additive argument that pops up around the web, but I won't be as bad if I mix it with Dexron, will it? :-/ I'm using what I have on the shelf instead of buying special stuff. If I used "fork oil", that would spoil the fun of repurposing! :D I am not showing all my data sources. I'll get them tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/05/16 at 23:42:03 Hey, Bel Ray 30 weight fork oil is heavier than Rotella Syn! |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/05/16 at 23:53:44 Look at this discussion http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=469513 |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/06/16 at 04:57:24 The manual instructs you to use Dexron ATF or 15W Fork Oil. That is all you really need to do, and your bike will handle as well as can be expected....the thickness of the oil is a compromise to do a reasonably good job for average conditions, On some road a thinner oil might be better - other roads a thicker oil, On 40 degree days the oil might be a little thick and on 90 degrees days a bit thin. If you think you can mix and match oils and suddenly create a magic oil that is superior to anything the factories have available.....you are mistaken. Go buy some Dexron ATF if you are cost conscious - or some 15W fork oil if you want what is made to go in the forks........and stop overthinking what belongs in your forks. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 02/06/16 at 08:29:09 agreed, this is not one of thos 'oh, it made my bike stop working, better reverse it' things this is one of those 'well that was a bad idea,. now I have $20,000 (or more) in hospital debt' things |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/06/16 at 11:15:09 09323F2839352E28333B36295A0 wrote:
Dave, I have some old bottles of Napa brand Dexron III/Mercon already. That is what I am using. You are not paying attention. I am not saying I wouldn't try pure Rotella T6 for experimenting; I am not saying I will settle for it either. More likely, for practical reasons, I will likely end up using Dexron mixed with a some Rotella as a thickener. As I recall, someone spoke of bikes of the past which called for ATF mixed with motor oil in the books. :P "dasch" said 4-5 years ago: Quote:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1311892806 My plan would be to use 5w40, which is even better. I might not even put half of it in motor oil. I am basically doing an accepted practice already. ::) Dave, if you were paying attention, you would realize that Dexron and 15 weight fork oil are NOT equivalent. Dexron is thinner. But maybe you already know that. Yes, I overthink things. I overthink EVERYTHING! It even gets in the way of my minimum wage, fast food job. I worry so much about cleanliness and little details it is not funny. Ought to see how much soap and paper towels I go through in a day washing my hands! Takes forever to accomplish the smallest things. Ought-ta be an engineer, but... ::) Now, as far as having a catastrophic crash from using the "wrong" oil, pray tell, why? Is it due to the increased possibility of foaming? Do the two oils react to each other in undesirable ways? I read somewhere that it was undesirable to mix ATF with certain other oils. I think it was hydraulic oil or motor oil, but it had nothing to do with motorcycles. I may have to look it up again. Considering that Suzuki (or the manual manufacturer, anyway) called for ATF mixed with motor oil for the forks, I would guess that there is no problem. Are you just worried that I will mix it too thick and skip off the pavement with every pothole? Is it the detergent bringing the dirt into suspension, as someone else on the web mentioned? Could that be the magic bullet that kills me? Detergent! ;D That's what I get for being a handwasher! ;D After all, I rode for quite a while with one side blowing oil out! I don't think that side was damping much, was it? If anything would have wrecked me, that would have been it. (Who knows, it could have been it.) :-? That was a real imbalance, and it may have caused me problems, though I don't have the experience to tell. Playing around with my suspension should help give me a feel for how different suspension conditions affect the handling of the bike, thereby developing an awareness in that area. It should help give me that experience. You know what I'm talking about? Good grief! The Savage is not an expensive, high-tech, high precision bike anyway, is it? What will it matter if I don't use the fancy, specialized oil? Am I a professional racer who pushes his bike to the limit and can tell the difference so easily? As a newb, will I even be able to tell the difference in performance between homemade 15 weight and Bel-Ray 15 weight? If I can, will it matter that much? Especially considering I have a beat up $1K Savage with an 8 year old rear tire and a broken foot peg! How about a bent triple tree! Didn't talk about that one, did I? I think one of the bolts in the triple tree is bent, making the handlebars slightly crooked. Not enough to notice much, though. Now that I think about it, this would have been a good time to fix that, considering my need to pull the forks. Tell me, is homemade fork oil any worse than the crappy rear shocks everyone complains about? Oh yeah, I guess homemade fork oil+ insidious rear shocks = just enough garbage to make disaster, huh? ;D :P Just having the bad shocks is okay, though--and the crappy brakes too... BUT DON'T YOU PUT IN THAT HOMEMADE OIL! YOU WILL CRASH, AND YOUR BIKE WILL INSTANTLY BURST INTO FLAMES BECAUSE ANYTHING BUT FORK OIL IS BLASPHEMY! YOUR BIKE WILL HATE YOU, AND THE BIKE GODS WILL SEEK VENGEANCE FOR YOUR FAILURE TO PAY TRIBUTE TO THE HONORABLE STEA--[COUGH]-- DEALERSHIPS! ;D ;D ;D And yes, there is a decent chance that dedicated suspension oil of the proper weight (and favorite brand) performs at least a little better than re-purposed oil, but that's not the point of the argument, is it? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/06/16 at 12:21:05 I am listening (reading) your ramblings.....and the Savage forks just aren't worth all this worry or discussion. If you put in the stuff the factory recommends, they are going to work just fine. ATF and 15W may not be exactly the same - but your bike isn't sophisticated enough to know the difference. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/06/16 at 13:37:42 645F5245545843455E565B44370 wrote:
How about ATF mixed with motor oil? Is my bike sophisticated enough to care about that? ;) Maybe it doesn't like the flavor of motor oil. It spits it out and cries like a baby. ;D Those bikes are smart, you know, they can tell what you feed them. ;D ::) If they don't like their oil, they spit it out and scream, "YUCK!" ;D They're loyal to their creators, too. Hasn't your bike ever said to you, "Well, Daddy Suzuki said I'm only supposed to eat 15 weight or ATF. If you defy my Daddy, I'll get mad and crash on you-- all on purpose!" ;D |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/06/16 at 13:56:24 Your bike is not sophisticated enough to worry about it. I doubt you are sophisticated enough to know the difference either. There's a big difference between reading something on the interwebs and having real world experience. You've done nothing and been nowhere in your motorcycling career and would do well to quit trying to school/insult your betters. Sit down shut up and listen to the advice they have to give, based on years of motorcycling life. On the one thread you claim it will be fun to experiment with fork oils and on another thread you deride Suzuki for making it So Hard to drain and refill. What's it to be? Engaging real world hands on experience or more trolling and learning zip? Like They say, bullshit walks. FWIW and back to the fork oil issue, my Savage forks worked almost as well with no oil in as with ATF or 15w fork oil. I did the experiment. So use whatever you like. You probably could use custard and not know any better. And before you say it, yes I have plenty of experience with and own several high performance bikes with high quality suspension. So I have some insight into this. IMO, YMMV etc. Rant over. ;D :D :( >:( 8-) ::) :P :'( |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Kris01 on 02/06/16 at 14:16:58 Wow! Gizzo just threw it out there! ;D Cheapnewb, there's nothing wrong with experimenting. However, some things are tried and true and you're probably better off leaving the engineering to the, uh....engineers. The forks use ATF or fork oil. Just stick with what works. I have a friend who uses ATF in his engines to clean them out. They smoke like a chimney for a while but he claims it works. If you need to get rid of some ATF... ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/06/16 at 14:23:55 Rant? I have seen and Done some ranting in the last ten years. I'm not able to describe Exactly what a rant IS, but I know One thing that it's Not. It's NOT gonna cause the Rantor to go in search of dental floss and toothpicks to remove bits and pieces of Rantees shredded gluteus maximus. The above opinion/observation not intended to express any opinion on the correctness, appropriateness or in any way take a side. The FOLLOWING, OTOH, is my opinion LMAO, LMAO, LMAO,, |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by KennyG on 02/06/16 at 17:00:06 I have mentioned before that there is too much time spent on this forum beating dead horses. There are guys on here that know the answers and that is why I spend so much time here. Some of these endless nonsense rants about things that 90% of us know have been resolved for years are just a waste of time and bandwidth. As Gizzo mentioned "BullShit Walks---Rant Over". I rest my case... Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Redryder652 on 02/06/16 at 18:10:39 I've used hydralic machine oil as fork oil once, and had great results. Except for the leaky seals :P |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/06/16 at 22:53:21 Well, with all that, I say goodnight. :o |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by KennyG on 02/06/16 at 23:23:47 As said before: "Your Own Utterances Convict You". |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/06/16 at 23:39:27 Strangely, I gave up my previous argument before I even saw your post. Got tired of adding to and tweaking it. It's late, and I'm tired of it. I'm also tired of reading that my own utterances convict me! So, as I said in that other thread long ago, not anymore! >:( I quit! Goodnight! >:( >:( >:( |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/08/16 at 09:25:30 I believe that an overview of dampening rod forks is in order here. From prior posts I've made on this subject (borrowed heavily from RaceTech)... Damping rod forks are used on the LS650 for one reason and one reason only; they are inexpensive to manufacture. The design constraints of these forks have major limitations. For example, to create compression damping, oil is shoved through an orifice. Shoving oil through an orifice creates very little resistance to flow at low vertical wheel velocities as when hitting a dip or gully or applying the front brakes. This allows the forks to shoot through the travel fairly easily, diving or bottoming in these situations. On the other hand when the wheel hits something square edge, especially at speed, it needs a lot of oil to pass through the damping holes very quickly. Unfortunately the nature of shoving oil through holes is that as the wheel velocity increases the damping force increases with the square of the velocity. In other words if you double the velocity you get four times the force. This means the hole basically "hydraulic locks" resulting in a harsh spike. Damping rods give the worst of both worlds; they are both too mushy and too harsh at the same time. With this understanding, the only condition you can create with a change in the oil viscosity is the point at which the damping rods will hydrolock. In all other conditions you will be under dampened - regardless of viscosity. Oh, BTW, as long as you are going to obsess over oil viscosity, here's some info that will fry your brain. The amount of oil in the forks effects the rate of compression in the final 1/3 of stroke. To compensate for the poor compression of damping rods, Suzuki over fills the forks, only allowing a 75mm air gap in oil height. This large volume of oil contributes to the poor reliability of LS650 fork seals. So is this something that you can improve upon? Can you reduce the amount of oil in the forks without blowing through the last 1/3 of fork travel? I know the answer (and have posted on this fairly extensively) but by all means, make your damping rods better then Suzuki could. After all, what do they know? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/08/16 at 10:30:59 As I've only used a single viscosity in my forks (15w fork oil) I'd have to defer to Gary's comments. But I have used 2 models of progressive rear shocks and have become incredibly spoiled. But there is still room for improvement. And that's where the VZ800 forks come in, inverted, air sprung, and cartridge style. I'm still discovering the finer points of these forks, but I will say my daily rodeo on the superslab is a blast compared to stock. The dragon is really a smooth run compared to the twisted sister rally, so it wasn't really challenged last summer, but will be this coming April. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/08/16 at 15:34:32 Verslagen and Gary, thank you for your replies. Gary, I really appreciate your contribution to this discussion. You really seem to be adding something here, especially since I have been wanting to add MORE oil than spec. :o. I will certainly consider adding your ideas to my suspension design ponderings. I really got frustrated (MAD!) at some of the people here. I kinda abandoned this thread for a while because of it. They don't seem to respect me or what I have to say. They can't handle it when some newbie comes in and questions their authority and conventional wisdom. If I have to blaspheme the mythical bike gods in Valhalla, then so be it. ;D I'm bustin' through. 8-) If they are really in authority, there is no question that can shake them anyway. 8-) That is what being a good leader is about. You're not a leader because you say so, but you're a leader because people find you fitting to follow. Conventional wisdom is good and all, but it only goes so far. Here's what this discussion is worth-- No, really! ::) Here is officially what this discussion is about: what kinds of oils can one safely use in the Savage front forks in order to accomplish a certain goal in certain conditions without unreasonable risk of mechanical damage or personal harm? What kind of McGuyver fork oils are available off the garage shelf? What ingenious make-do oils can be used in the Savage front forks without unreasonable risks and problems Now, not all of them are going to be good for all conditions, and there could be sacrifices in quality since not every aspect is designed for use in motorcycle forks. But, seriously, :-? do you actually trust manufacturers to give you something painstakingly designed for your motorcycle forks? Every single time? Here's a wake up call to those who worship the industry and it's conventional wisdom: Fork oils vary WIDELY in their properties, at least from my perhaps shallow observation. Look at this chart. http://mahonkin.com/~milktree/motorcycle/fork-oil.html Some of these fork oils report rather mediocre viscosity indices, compared to ATF or good synthetic motor oil. A few have VI's no better than, or worse than regular hydraulic oil :P. Some of them have extraordinary numbers, though, so one can't make sweeping statements. I can say that when you try that next brand of fork oil only to find your forks stiff as a steel rod the next cold ride, you know you bought the wrong oil. ;) Some of you are going to pooh pooh this whole discussion away and call me a young fool. Well, those fellows can find another thread to play with. ;) >:(. Let it be known, however, that if there were a good study/ experiment (probably not something for me to do in particular) done with various oils with proper research to back it, we could throw in an index of suitable oil mixtures, complete with their strengths, weaknesses, pros, cons, side-effects, suitable conditions, contraindications, hazards, limitations, and the like, along with relative rank so that we know which ones are best all around. There could be a use for my musings. You could throw them in the tech documents. :) I tend to be OCD about things, but I have to admit, a lot of things, while not ideal, while possibly risky in theory and statistics, oftentimes-- don't mean a thing. :P Since Gizzo says I can put custard in it, well, I encourage him to ride the first custard-forked Savage! ;D It might just work (for awhile, anyway ;)), and be funny too ;D. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/08/16 at 15:53:13 3933373D363F3B326C6A6E5E0 wrote:
Since reviewing the wiki on motorcycle suspension some time ago, (weeks) I learned that the conventional way of getting around this pressure spike/soft suspension is to use some sort of spring valve system with reeds or shims of some sort (kinda being vague here, correct me if I sound like an idiot) which allows for the oil passageways to rapidly enlarge in the event of a pressure spike that results from a high velocity bump. Modern bikes often have this sort of thing. Our Savage does not. And, yeah, what does Suzuki know? ;) Do the engineers really get what they want, or are they at the mercy of marketers and other know-not-care-nots? I recall hearing/reading something about a time to "kill off" or "shoot" the engineer-- you know-- when the engineer can't stop tweaking the product, but the marketer feels like he has to defy the engineer and dump the product onto the public? The marketer shoots the engineer, or something like that. ;D Well, I guess those Japanese would be more careful to introduce a quality product than Americans would. You know how they are about honor. :-X cough: hara-kuri :cough. Meh, who knows? So is this something that you can improve upon? Can you reduce the amount of oil in the forks without blowing through the last 1/3 of fork travel? I'll think about it, so don't spoil the answer! ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/08/16 at 22:08:48 72797470617F7466732325110 wrote:
if you want to invest $199 for Gold Valve Emulators and another $125 for linear rate springs (plus shipping cost)- and spend some time fiddling with the settings, you might be able to improve on the ride quality of the forks and improve the handling a bit. You have to change the springs with the emulators, as the valve mechanism does not work properly with the stock progressive wound springs. http://www.racetech.com/page/title/Emulators So....if you spend about $300 and some time fiddling with the valve settings and spring pre-load - you can make the forks a bit more modern, and maybe feel the difference. (I installed them last year in my bike....and so far I haven't noticed much of a difference.....I guess I need to do more fiddling with the settings) And since you want to spend money on the forks...might was well buy some adjustable forks caps for $ 90, and a $ 165 fork brace....that way you can spend about $ 550 in an effort to make the forks work a little better! ;) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-FZR400-FZR600-others-Billet-CNC-Fork-Caps-with-Adjustable-Preload-/121884455697?hash=item1c60e13311:g:DJQAAOSwRLZT9kJ4&vxp=mtr http://superbrace.com/shop/3335-suzuki-savage-ls-650/ Or....you can spend less than $ 20 and get some fresh fork oil (or ATF) in those aged forks..... and get a decent handling bike that will most likely meet your riding needs. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/09/16 at 09:15:05 Looks yummy :D One thing that came to mind would be adding a spring loaded orifice or something. I wonder if the cartridge emulator is worth its cost. Why not invent something cheaper? Hint, Hint, an easy mod ;) As far as adjustable preload is concerned, don't people use pvc spacers or something? Is that safe? And why can't we use forks from something else that is already modern and adjustable? I'm still thinking about Gary's question, so don't spoil it. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/09/16 at 09:32:05 The emulator is a spring loaded valve.....the oil goes through tiny holes for normal riding, and then opens the spring loaded valve on bigger bumps. The valve is adjustable and there are several different springs you can use....and the small holes can be modified to change the dampening characteristics on the small bumps - there is a lot of adjustment available. Why do you feel that companies can design, do product development, buy materials, pay for labor/tools/equipment/insurance, manufacture and market things for pennies? It required a lot of time and money for this company to develop their products, and they need to get that money back if they want to stay in business. If you want somebody to make a cheap version that may or may not be an improvement - you might as well just use the stock damping rods and 15W fork oil or ATF (that works really well for 99.782% of the folks who own a Savage). Is it worth it? Not if you are still running that 8 year old, evil rear tire. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/16 at 10:12:49 010A0703120C0715005056620 wrote:
You're gonna have to pay upwards from $250 for a front end off a donor bike. And there's at least one full pictorial here. From a cost, skill, talent perspective... I don't think that's a solution for you. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/09/16 at 10:44:15 7B404D5A4B475C5A4149445B280 wrote:
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/16 at 10:48:34 474C4145544A4153461610240 wrote:
people replace the existing spacers with pvc tubing... cut to length, not adjustable. so if you want adjustable with this method, are you talking about adding washers? This has been done as well and you should note that adding more preload than stock adds to the difficulty in getting the caps back on which is hard enough. take a look at gary's fork thread in the tech section for replacement caps with preload adjustment. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/09/16 at 11:54:52 03080501100E0517025254600 wrote:
If you ever own and try to run a business, keep employees paid, provide their benefits, have a warm place for them to work and a place to park their car, staples, paper clips, phone, internet, computers, software licenses, lights, paper, accounting, insurance, and then pay the Federal/State/County/City Taxes for the pleasure of doing this....you will begin to understand what it takes to pay the bills and keep the lights on. This is not a hobby for these folks - they need to make some money doing it. If this was a product sold by the millions - they might be able to get the cost down by gearing up for mass production. However the market for these parts is small, they have to be made in a lot of different sizes and models to fit a myriad of different bikes......and it is expensive to make parts in small batches. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/16 at 12:05:17 545F525647595240550503370 wrote:
I find this insulting. I make a gadget and I sell it for a price. Anybody with skills and access to the equipment can make it themselves. Some people have said I should do it for a lot less, yet those people don't. Simple, do what I do for a lot less, put me out of business. I've seen a lot of one off's that look great, some carp too. But no one will go any further than that. So, you want someone to hand you the solution, figure out the mod for you and you do it for cheap. Well, someone did, you got pictures of it, go make it. With $10 of materials and some tools you should be able to get pretty close. Should only take you a month of sundays. We'll expect full documentation or you can open a store and sell'em for $50 each. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/09/16 at 13:43:53 Oh, Wow, now I've even made Verslagen mad. :( Can't even speak my mind around here without stepping on everyone's toes, can I? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/16 at 13:54:53 252E232736282331247472460 wrote:
No, I think you need to do some work before getting butthurt about every comment. Have you tried any of the oils you've suggested? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/09/16 at 14:58:30 Yep....this thread is getting pretty old. A month has gone by, we are on the 5th page of discussion......and nothing has been done. Time for me to move on to more worthwhile projects....Over and Out! |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by KennyG on 02/09/16 at 15:03:10 Dave, Can we defriend a guy on here like you do on Facebook? Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/09/16 at 15:10:47 Well, this certainly has me feeling concerned. :( Everyone's mad at me. :( |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/09/16 at 15:13:26 777C7175647A7163762620140 wrote:
Probably not mad.....just worn out. This whole Rotella T/fork oil thing should have been resolved in 1 page of discussion over a 2 day period. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 02/09/16 at 18:59:38 Cheap, you enjoy hashing things out you also like arguing with folks, if you don't like what they have to say in reply a lot of these folks don't share that enthusiasm, and are also trying to keep you from doing things they don't think are very smart I think I said back on page 1 or two, try it, let us know what happens I think others said it too, but I could be wrong Dave and Versy are great guys, and they know their machines Versy has done work on my bike twice, though not major stuff, for no more than a 'thank you' They just don't like to argue with someone who just questions everything they say, who has little practical experience They're both basically saying what I did try it, tell us how it goes by now you must realize none of us has tried blending oils, and we have our doubts, but also no real feedback to give We can't offer advice on things we've never done so you're the pioneer, do some research and to add to what Dave and Versy said re the emulators, the company not only has a small market, they also have pretty large R&D costs to recover If you think you can just whip up a device like that in your garage without a degree in engineering, or even with one, well, be ready to make A LOT of prototypes, which you will then bin when they're no better, and likely worse, than the stock setup invention is 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration, even if you know what you're doing put in more sweat, and see how far it takes you |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/09/16 at 19:29:38 Thanks, Art. I like your style. :) I'll take your advice into consideration. I'll keep you posted on my findings. :) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/09/16 at 20:32:02 If you can make a device that works at least as well as gold valve cartridge emulators in a new way (not a knock off) for $50.00 a pop, sign me up. I'd love to do some testing. Good luck. Work hard. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/10/16 at 03:02:04 Maybe I shouldn't prolong the agony - but I didn't properly explain the emulator and probably made it seem simpler than it really is. It is not a single check valve....it is actually two. The small diameter long spring controls a small diameter brass plate (valve) with one or several holes in it. The small holes control the flow of oil on the compression stroke during small movements, and it is adjustable by the size and number of holes. When you hit a big bump the entire brass plate (valve) moves away from the brass body to allow faster movement, and it is adjustable by altering the spring tension by moving the adjusting screw....or installing different rate springs. However....the is a steel plate on the bottom side of the emulator (check valve) that controls the flow of oil on the rebound stroke. This springs is not really visible when the unit is assembled and photos are taken - this spring is calibrated by Race Tech for you application, and the adjustment is made by altering the fork oil weight. http://i65.tinypic.com/2mx4daf.jpg In the photo below you can see the small brass plate under the longs spring with a single small hole drilled in it, and a few dimples made for drilling additional holes......on some applications you drill as many as 4 holes in this brass plate. On the bottom side you can see the holes machined to allow the oil to flow from the steel check valve on the rebound stroke. http://i63.tinypic.com/madmyq.jpg This doesn't mean that you need to spend $ 300 installing the emulators and springs in your forks....chances are the stock forks work as well as you need them to. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/10/16 at 03:26:02 62696460716F6476633335010 wrote:
Once you get the fork oil changed, install a nylon zip tie on one fork leg above the slider (you can also use a piece of string tied around the fork tube). Then push the zip tie down until it contacts the slider. Then stand the bike up off the kick stand and let the forks drop under the weight of the bike. Then either put the bike back on the sidestand to pull the weight off the forks - or put it on a jack and take the weight off until the forks are fully extended. Then measure the travel the forks moved under the weight of the bike. Then pull the zip tie back down and repeat the process with you geared up and sitting on the bike with your feet on the pegs....don't bounce or make any hard movement - you just want your relaxed weight on the bike....then get off and extend the forks and take a measurement. If the springs are set up perfectly for the bike and your weight - you should have about 10-15mm of sag for the bike alone, and about 35 mm with you on the bike. You need to add spacers or washers to get close to the 35mm sag before you start riding and evaluating your fork performance. Since you weigh 200 pounds without gear....you may need to add some spacers/washer to get the ride height correct and provide proper fork travel. (If half of your fork travel is gone just by sitting on the bike....that doesn't leave much travel when riding). |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 02/10/16 at 07:22:29 assembling and disassembling forks multiple times part of that perspiration I was jawin about Of course, first you gotta do this with the oil Suzuki specced, so it's a fair comparison Then you gotta redo that procedure with each and every blend your highly active little gray cells come up with, to make fair comparisons this is gonna be work It'll keep ya busy though, and you'll be REALLY good at disassembling / reassembling forks ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/10/16 at 10:51:54 556E6374656972746F676A75060 wrote:
Once you get the fork oil changed, install a nylon zip tie on one fork leg above the slider (you can also use a piece of string tied around the fork tube). Then push the zip tie down until it contacts the slider. Then stand the bike up off the kick stand and let the forks drop under the weight of the bike. Then either put the bike back on the sidestand to pull the weight off the forks - or put it on a jack and take the weight off until the forks are fully extended. Then measure the travel the forks moved under the weight of the bike. Then pull the zip tie back down and repeat the process with you geared up and sitting on the bike with your feet on the pegs....don't bounce or make any hard movement - you just want your relaxed weight on the bike....then get off and extend the forks and take a measurement. If the springs are set up perfectly for the bike and your weight - you should have about 10-15mm of sag for the bike alone, and about 35 mm with you on the bike. You need to add spacers or washers to get close to the 35mm sag before you start riding and evaluating your fork performance. Since you weigh 200 pounds without gear....you may need to add some spacers/washer to get the ride height correct and provide proper fork travel. (If half of your fork travel is gone just by sitting on the bike....that doesn't leave much travel when riding). [/quote] Thanks for the info. I will try that. By spacers, you mean adjusting the spring preload with spacers inside the forks behind the fill cap, added in front of the stock steel tube spacer? I take it that ride height has to do with preload rather than oil viscosity? That seems right. :-/ By the way, where are you getting your numbers? It seems that the cartridge emulator is not extremely simple. I wonder if it could be, though. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/10/16 at 10:59:51 4C5F595A484F4F2D0 wrote:
Part of the point is to use what I've got lying around. I don't have Suzuki fork oil lying around. Since I've run my jaw and gotten everyone emotionally invested into this thing, I'll probably buy some Suzuki oil as well as some aftermarket fork oil to compare to. I'm not sure I'll do any comparisons today. The important thing is to be ready to ride. If it seems to work alright, then it works. I'll really be able to tell in this cold weather whether any amount of motor oil will be suitable, for if it's not, the forks will act as if they are filled with custard. ;D That reminds me, I could experiment with some Lucas (Dad loves that stuff ::)) --thought of that yesterday. Now straight Lucas would be Gizzo's custard! ;D Meh, bar and chain oil would probably be cheaper. ;D By the way, WD should know that 85 weight gear oil and 30 weight motor oil are similar. http://www.torcousa.com/innov-lub-101.html SAE numbers are so screwed up. ::) If WD wants to use something thicker than motor oil, he should look up the actual viscosity numbers. WD could try one of the above suggestions, but I honestly don't know what they would do to his forks. :-/ Mixing motor oil and Lucas would be something to try, but still, stuff like that is weird and mysterious. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/10/16 at 11:26:11 Now that I think of it, If WD wants to try a gear oil, then I would suggest a blend of 140 weight with some motor oil, but with the different additive packages, I don't know how it would act chemically. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 02/10/16 at 11:29:00 I don't really think a multi vis oils is gonna be any thicker, cold, that a single weight, that's not how multi vis works, buddy |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/10/16 at 12:50:56 You should forget the Lucas, Rotella T, and other crap until you have used ATF or 15W oil to establish a base line for what the factory settings do. Chances are the bike will handle just fine, and you won't need to waste any time doing the other "testing". And so far....you haven't proven to any of us that you like working on the bike. You may take the forks off and drain them one time....and decide that it is a lot of work. Might be that you don't want to do it a 2nd or 3rd time. Here is some reading for you. http://www.racetech.com/page/id/30 |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/10/16 at 18:18:24 Where will this train wreck end up? Reminded me of something from my past though. Looong ago I used to work with a guy who would buy cheap early monoshock motocrossers which had worn out unrebuildable gas charged suspension units. Hence the cheapness. He'd drill a couple holes ,fit a grease nipple and pump a load of grease into the shock. Kind of made it sort of work, if you didn't know any better. Then he'd flip it for a bit of profit. Shonky? Yes. Saved a bike being scrapped? Also yes. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/10/16 at 20:37:38 Train wreck??? :-? You talkin' about me or the discussion? Are you trying to insult me? Do you question my ethics Gizzo? If so, you simply don't know me very well. Art, I started to misunderstand your latest reply. I think I got it now. In reply to your reply, I understand the workings of multi-viscosity oils. They are to retain thinness during the cold. I have considered changing from Rotella dino to Rotella synthetic for the lower winter number, but by the time I get around to it, winter will probably be over. Anyway, the point is that these oils still get thicker, just not as thick as the straight oils. Difference is that one just gets thick, but the other turns to caramel, you might say. Here's some temp-viscosity data for generic motor oils of certain SAE weights. http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/ I've been doing some testing with a mixture of T6 and ATF. Now I took some videos of that as well as documentation of the old oil that was in it, but I'm feeling pretty lazy about going through the trouble of putting them on here. If you want, I might just post them. I started to consider going through a little trouble to experiment since I had opened my big fat jaw on this and annoyed everyone. Yeah, guys, I've got this bright idea... So you say I should be the one to do the hard work, or else I'm full of BS? Okay, sure, I'll do the work to prove my honor. Okay, you can give me some insults while you're at it. I'll take it. ::) Or not. Should I take a screwing, metaphorically speaking? Dave, you are correct in questioning my desire to work on my bike. I doubt it too. If and when I feel like playing with oils and actually feel like sharing my findings on this forum, I'll post them here. Until then, I'll just put in whatever I want and ride. I'm lazy. :P I got the other fork off and drained the oil that was in it. The job wasn't hard. The oil seemed comparably thick. It could have been 15-20 weight fork oil, or it could have been motor oil for all I know. It wasn't red. There seemed to be some of it in the blown fork that I put the ATF in at first. The old oil stayed to the bottom, which made me wonder if ATF and motor oil have miscibility issues. I'll see if they separate. Given the thickness of the former oil and my itch to try something thicker than ATF, I doubt I will be happy with straight ATF. My Dad mentioned trying some 68 hydraulic oil, which would be quite suitable except for its comparatively low viscosity index. Not so good for winter riding. No, I don't have to get "butthurt" about everyone's comments, but that doesn't mean I have to jump through fiery hoops to try to please people who don't think much of me. I used to feel quite alarmed when someone poked at me on this forum. I've been getting hard to it. Doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, though. Gizzo, you may like being harsh with people. Just make sure you don't mind the same harshness thrown back at you. Golden rule, you know. Furthermore, If Kenny wants to use this post or any others as ammo for another verbal attack, well, he knows the correct orifice (of his) into which he is more than welcome to thrust it. If all he can do on this forum is find ways to insult me, why should I respect anything he says? I clap the dust from my hands. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by KennyG on 02/10/16 at 20:41:19 Gizzo, It looks like this disaster will go for at least 7 pages...... Kenny G |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/10/16 at 20:42:31 Yep ;D |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/10/16 at 22:55:10 464D4044554B4052471711250 wrote:
Not at all. I'm finding the thread really amusing in a "can't stop looking" kind of way. Keep it up champ. If I was trying to insult you, you'd know about it. But, this being a nice guys forum, I'll not go there. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/10/16 at 23:03:43 Thanks :) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/11/16 at 03:52:26 I'm getting off this train.....it is going nowhere. ;) I suggest that others do the same...................... |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by KennyG on 02/11/16 at 06:20:23 I too am off this train. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Art Webb on 02/11/16 at 07:40:32 Well if you guys really wanted to stop this train wreck, as it's been named, the time to do that was on page 2, ya'll should know by now Cheap will debate for as long as others will debate hime ;D Cheap, I likely misread, it sounded at one point like you thought multi vis actually thickened as it heated up, rather than just thinned at a slower rate, which is a common misconception I've seen many times I think you'll be happy with ATF, it seems to work well Bonus, ATF will keep the guts of your forks really clean |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/11/16 at 23:36:55 Got the bike back together with fork boots. I ended up using about 2/3rds ATF with 1/3 5W-40 T6. I took her for a test drive after dusk in freezing temps. Yes, it is stiff. Yes, it bugs me that I didn't try regular ATF for this kind of weather. It's better than it was before I worked on it, though. It seems fine for the rough back-roads. One pothole in my driveway jarred me a little; other than that, most of my trip through the rough dirt road seemed fine. The only thing that bothers me most was hitting that rough patch in the road (asphalt) around 55 mph. :o. I wonder if the wheel didn't leave the ground. :o. I am hesitant to waste anymore old ATF or effort reassembling the forks. Winter will be over soon, and the oil I put in will probably be just right for summer. :) I hope. While I can't say about special additives or other suspension oil whatnot, many, if not most suspension oils of the weight I mentioned have kinematic viscosity numbers and viscosity indices no better, or even worse, than what I just put in with my homemade mixture. If I were to do better on those numbers alone, I would have to be rather picky about my fork oil choice. http://mahonkin.com/~milktree/motorcycle/fork-oil.html Taking the average of the oil's viscosities (the sum of 34+34+87 for two parts ATF and one part Rotella), I came up with a viscosity of approximately 52. Exactly how much motor oil I added is not entirely clear, though I don't think I'm very far off. This viscosity number is near the thicker end of 15w fork oils. On those viscosity numbers, I don't seem any worse than typical fork oils. Not sure about dynamic viscosity, though. Haven't really studied it. All in all, the forks seem no worse than those stinking rear shocks. :P They seem a notably better: firm, hard, but not as painful, if you get what I'm saying. To beat all, I'm considering tightening up those rear shocks like everyone else has been doing. ::) At least I'm not riding (as WD put it) a "mushmobile" ;D. And, yes, the forks still dive. They just do it in a more dignified manner. ;). A word to the wise. From this experiment and the research I have learned this: If you ride in all temps and want a nice, firm ride during the summer without pulling your forks, make sure you SPECIFY a fork oil made with a HIGH viscosity index of the weight you want. That way you don't have to risk suffering come winter. The typical 15w fork oil does not have a very impressive viscosity index. Bel-Ray 15w, for example, comes in a regular version (very crappy VI) and an HVI version (great VI). Now why don't I use straight ATF since it has such good all-around qualities? I wanted to try something thicker. ;) Unless there is some special difference between fork oil and my mix that I am missing or a miscalculation, or some random crazy engineering thing that I don't know, I doubt I would have done much better with 15w fork oil. In fact, plain Bel-Ray 15w, with its 53 viscosity and 103 VI, would have been even worse. I'll figure this thing out eventually. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/11/16 at 23:42:26 By the way, the Daystar 58's work great :D |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/12/16 at 05:31:15 49424F4B5A444F5D48181E2A0 wrote:
So this quoted clip just makes my blood boil. It's an insult to the thousands of chemical engineers that develop, test, validate and verify oil (of any type). I would say with 100% certainty that you ARE missing a calculation, or some random crazy engineering thing. Reading stuff on the internet doesn't make you a chemical engineer - it doesn't make you anything other than someone without a degree in chemical engineering that DOESN'T understand random crazy engineering things. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 08:58:20 Gary! Gary! Stop boiling your blood! Bel-Ray does make a version with better specs. Are you seriously going to trust oil manufacturers and bike accessory companies and dealerships, which are commonly called stealerships to always have the absolute best product that can be made at the very best price? I'm not an engineer. Are you an engineer? Is that why you're sore at me? As I said before, the engineers don't exactly have full control over everything, and not everybody in business is a good guy who recognizes or cares about these things. There are sacrifices made in products. Bel-Ray fork oil is not necessarily bad, it just won't work well at extreme temps (provided the figures are correct.) This could matter to racers, but mostly the only time it matters to typical people is during the winter, and many people won't even ride in the cold. Perhaps the oil's low VI is due to its behavior at high temps, not low ones? Maybe it doesn't get thick so bad as it gets thin? Maybe it's just a summer oil, and that's the end of it. Don't get mad. Tell me what I'm missing, because, honestly, if I wanted something a little thicker, regular old AW68 hydraulic oil is pretty close, and it is made for hydraulics. Now that might make you mad. If it does, then that's too bad. You need to stop making gods out of these industry people. Call 'em as you see 'em. After all I did make some degree of disclaimer by admitting the possibility for missing information or miscalculation, so don't get your panties in a knot. Are you going to disrespect me because I bring the establishment, the authorities, into question? Let's bring JOG in here. I wonder what he would say about all this? With all that said, I should mention that Bel-Ray HVI fork oil is likely plenty better than my mix, and the next time I need oil in my forks (when I'm not testing ATF or something), I might consider it a worthy investment. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by verslagen1 on 02/12/16 at 09:03:00 Moved to the cafe to prevent any illusion that this represents reputable information. This thread exists for the entertainment of a few members. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 09:10:57 7973777D767F7B722C2A2E1E0 wrote:
So this quoted clip just makes my blood boil. It's an insult to the thousands of chemical engineers that develop, test, validate and verify oil (of any type). I would say with 100% certainty that you ARE missing a calculation, or some random crazy engineering thing. Reading stuff on the internet doesn't make you a chemical engineer - it doesn't make you anything other than someone without a degree in chemical engineering that DOESN'T understand random crazy engineering things. [/quote] When I say that I'll figure it out, I was referring more or less to the situation with my forks, not necessarily the engineering. I was talking about what feel I like in my forks, and what oil I'll need for certain situations. I suppose you've figured that out too. :-? I think you misunderstand me slightly. I wasn't very clear. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/12/16 at 09:15:22 6A60646E656C68613F393D0D0 wrote:
Yes, I am. Since you have decided to use Bel-Ray as an example, I will tell you that I have been using their products since the mid 1970's. They have an outstanding reputation in the motorcycle industry because their products do what they say they will do. Their support of the industry is unparalleled. You need to separate the business practices of a dealer (stealership) from that of an established company with a well earned reputation. 02090400110F0416035355610 wrote:
This is obvious to everyone. 02090400110F0416035355610 wrote:
I have a degree in aerospace engineering. I'm not "sore" at you. I'm just amazed how someone who knows nothing has convinced himself that they are now an expert because they mixed a few ounces of fluid together. 02090400110F0416035355610 wrote:
Can you share YOUR data on this subject? 02090400110F0416035355610 wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, you don't have a clue as to what you think you know. 02090400110F0416035355610 wrote:
Like most conspiracy theorists, you come off as a lunatic. Bel-Ray makes outstanding products. They hire great engineers and support many racers and riders. Their marketing is fair and factual. Just who the "f" do you think you are? [/quote] |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 09:47:09 I'm nobody. I almost have a Bachelor's Degree, and I work for minimum wage at an old fast food restaurant in a small town. I am dirt. I suppose you are somebody, huh? Hmmm... And I thought I was sick of the nutheads on Youtube. Now someone's calling me one. ::) :-? Hmmm... I'll have to think about that one. Maybe I'm just open-minded and mistrusting of authority? I must believe in more conspiracy than you do at any rate. ;) There is some stuff out there that might be true, though I don't entirely believe them. If I don't trust the opinions of regular people, then why would I trust conspiracy people more? That would be a little off. Well, Mr. Aerospace engineer, I bow before your almighty magnificence and worship you. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P. [smiley=thumbdown.gif] [smiley=evil.gif] cough: sarcasm :cough. Since you know your fluid mechanics, and we all know you do [smiley=evil.gif], pray tell what I am missing? Here is my data source. http://mahonkin.com/~milktree/motorcycle/fork-oil.html Now, if I actually had a graph of all temps and viscosities, I would have a better idea of what I'm looking at, but I don't. Since you are apt to say I don't know what I'm talking about, then why don't you educate me? Or are you one of those people who would down others for ignorance and refuse to enlighten them? Would you down me only to say I'm not worth your time and that I should pay $200k to learn what you did? You would be that cruel, wouldn't you? Or does Aerospace engineer specifically exclude all knowledge on oils? Did they selectively delete that from your brain? Part of the training? Do they use a little brain zapper or do they use hypnotism. ;D (Yes, I'm poking a little fun, but I didn't just say that ;)) And, before everyone jumps down my throat, I would prefer that you don't. And yes, Art is correct, I'll argue till the cows come home. One more thing... Mr. Aerospace engineer (not just any engineer, the almighty Aerospace engineer, you know, the kind everyone goes "ooh" and "ahh" about), being a man of science (applied science, to be exact), you should take into consideration that some famous scientists and their major discoveries fought the establishment tooth and nail. The scientists and engineers, if they were called that, half a millenium ago, trusted the establishment (a religious establishment, nonetheless), and they were wrong. How much flak did Einstein get for his theories? Just sayin' :-? I may be a young fool with a meaningless discovery that may be found to be worthless and erroneous as trash, and while I may be a poor piece of dirt under your feet for the rest of my nearly pointless existence, you sir, may be committing a rather common (I do it, we all do it) logical fallacy-- to discount the truth of one's opinion based upon his reputation. Unless you clearly knew, or at the very least, had a fuzzy feeling of what I've done wrong before you made your judgement, then it is likely sir that you have just fallen flat on your face. Booyah! |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by badwolf on 02/12/16 at 10:29:08 I use baby oil mixed with KY jelly. Oh wait, "FORK" oil? Never mind. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 10:35:34 Thanks for the humor badwolf. ;D ;D ;) :) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by Dave on 02/12/16 at 11:17:23 The reason that this thread has turned "sour", is that you have failed to acknowledge that there are folks on this forum who know more than you do, and that we are giving you really good advice (based on years of motorcycle experience and professional degrees)....and you expect that some how we have a responsibility to "school" you. Nope....I don't owe you anything as you have proven that you won't listen to reason or accept help from someone who has been riding and working on motorcycles for the past 50 years. Do I know more than you about motorcycles?.......absolutely! Do I have a closed mind about new and better ways to do things?....No (but using motor oil and gear oil in forks is not going to improve anything based on my experience). I am also an engineer.....and yes, Fluid Dynamics are part of the curriculum. And I also had courses on motion, oscillation, damping, friction, physics, heat transfer, thermodynamics, and a year of "Vector Mechanics" that covers Static Loads and Dynamic motion that is linear and/or rotational. I am a "CIVIL" engineer (Which is about as close to "dirt" as you can get compared to an aerospace engineer)! While Gary was taking advanced courses in fluid flow.....I was learning how to build things with steel and concrete. Each and every time I offered you a recommendation based on my experience, or provided a link in which you could learn something - you basically ignored it and continued down this path of mixing and matching oils to make your own fork oil. What you fail to accept that is although the forks may not be perfect.....and the oil may not be perfect - they are engineered to work together. It is not an accident that this stuff works well together....the factory has designed and tested these systems, and any tweaking that was needed was done long before the products ever came on the market. I am volunteering my time on this forum to help those folks who have a problem with their motorcycle and need help fixing it.....and are willing to accept experienced help. I choose not to participate any more in your threads.....you have proven to me that you don't want, and are not willing to accept my help. And nobody has claimed that working in a Fast Food Restaurant makes you less of a person. I worked in Colonel Sanders and Burger Chef in my youth.....and I do remember those days fondly. Nobody has picked on you because of who you are....only made comments based on how you have behaved on this forum. The Moderators will not allow any personal attacks on this forum. Dave |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/12/16 at 14:18:16 Cheap: maybe you could inject some credibility into your argument if you could provide some evidence that you can actually ride, therefore having some understanding of what a fork needs. As far as I can tell you've been riding a few months , fell off in the driveway and went to your sisters house. Try riding a while and see what faults you can personally find with the forks and quit, for now, telling us how they can be improved. You might be surprised to find that they do just fine, as supplied, for your needs. For me, they're good, with ATF, for the most part until I really get up it. Then the forks fade, the front end squirms and I needs to ride a little differently. This happens after some time of aggressive cornering in the hills. But they cool down and come good just fine. In the real world most people don't ride a cruiser like that (and I doubt you have it in you just yet) so you might find the stock forks and oil just fine. Oh yeh: I tried ATF in my other (sport) bike to see what happened. They worked fine until they got hot. Back to 15w fork oil and they're golden. I understand you want to use whats laying around the house and that's fine. I don't think you're going to find anything that works as well as the product that's designed for the purpose though. I'm not an engineer too. Just a garden variety qualified heavy diesel mechanic and university librarian. I have never worked in a fast food, factory or retail establishment so can't comment on that other than to say I don't feel I've missed out.:P Good call moving this to the Cafe, Dave. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 15:26:50 Well, guys, I've decided to give this thread a rest for a while. I have something better to talk about which actually refers to riding. The oil I put in seems to work alright. I'm okay with it so far. My complaints were to Gary. Someone's going to chew you out for being ignorant, you might be tempted to order from him some free schooling. That's the way it works. He might not agree to it, but I'll have the nerve to give the order. Dave, I have to admit that you don't owe me anything. That's fine. It's disappointing to read that you no longer wish to participate in any of my threads, but that's okay, I guess. I'll live.... maybe. And yes, you participate a lot in this forum; you are a moderator. To be honest, though, you have been the one to tell me to do X, Y, and Z and be done with it. That is not how I work. I like to ponder on interesting ideas. Do you ever come up with interesting ideas? Do you like to create and make things better? Don't you have fun little engineering dreams, even if they might be pipe-dreams? Aren't engineers supposed to be problem solvers? Where's the passion, creativity, and desire to break free from the same old? What I've seen so far from Gary and Dave in the past few replies consists of praising companies and pushing accepted practices and ways of thinking. This attitude or spirit does not seem very conducive to my way of thinking. I have considered becoming an engineer, but I may have missed my chance-- who knows. :-/ I certainly don't have $100k cash in my front pocket, and I frankly don't think I'm ready for that. Well, so far I am not very impressed with the attitudes of the engineers here so far. :( Indoctrination is the word, perhaps, or establishment. Can't say you want to hear it. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. Well, anyway, there it is. It's not nice, but there's some of my thoughts on the matter, if you appreciate them. As far as being called dirt is concerned, the sad part is that I'm ready and willing to call myself dirt. :( Bel-Ray is fine, by the way. I would consider purchasing some of their oil if I felt, as a consumer, that I would be happy with what I paid for for the price. As I said, I might consider their HVI oil. Strangely, they make the "Thumper" engine oil that people on this forum were questioning compared to Rotella. Can't say because it's bad. Probably not everyone knows about it. I've never tried it. I don't know the ZDDP levels. It's probably high quality oil with a lot of ZDDP, especially since it's labeled as racing oil. It's probably also expensive. For engineers, you guys seem to be holding back just a little. Dave seems to put forth some stuff, but we're certainly not spewing forth with mathematical formulas and crazy cool engineering stuff. I guess engineering is boring then ;) [poke, poke]. If you don't want to share your industry secrets and want everyone to get it the hard way, I guess that's your right. And Gizzo, if you want riding experience, stay tuned to my next thread. I have a surprise. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 15:30:02 Dave, you don't have to reply to this. I just noticed that you said that you didn't have a closed mind. Still, I have gotten the impression for awhile that you have been a party pooper, at least in my case. You don't have to make any more replies to this thread. If you do, I might be tempted to make a response. ::) Thanks for the info on the emulator and such. :) I think I'm done here for now. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by old_rider on 02/12/16 at 20:08:54 Wow.... fun read, for just forks... Does the bottle say fork oil? Then use it for that.... Are you going to race it? Use the "professional fork oil"... Are you going to take it to the whupTdo's on the dirt track? "see the above statement" Wanna mix it and throw in some other type of oil? go right ahead... if it destroys your seals or valves.....don't mix it like that again. Want to hit a thread and ask what it will do? WHY? Don't you know? Don't have the money to rebuild it twenty times? .... listen to someone who has done it. Well now.... my favorite saying is.... If you don't want an OPINION.... DON'T ask for one.... Another one... Don't bite the hand that feeds you... Pretty much pertains to all posts..... old motorcycle riders don't get old because they "don't know anything"..... they actually tried stuff too, and lived to tell it :) Me... I have never changed the oil in any of my bikes forks.... why?... I would just wipe off the excess and went on riding. What the handling is bad? learn to adjust ;D |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 21:13:08 Sounds good to me. ;) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/12/16 at 21:17:54 6F6C647269646572000 wrote:
Oh! food! [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif] :D nom, nom, nom. Yuck! >:( Waaaaaaaah!!!! >:(CRUNCH! [smiley=angry.gif] ;D ;D Oh well, there went that one... :-/ ;D ;D Seriously, though, oldrider, I kinda like your style. 8-) Peace 8-) |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/14/16 at 20:29:40 Oh! food! :D [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif] nom, nom, nom. :D Yuck! >:( Waaaaaaaah!!!! >:( CRUNCH! The story of me... :D [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N4UNWX6C1w[/media] |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/14/16 at 22:43:38 Apparently (so I've heard and haven't bothered to confirm it) Royal Enfield specifies 10w 30 motor oil as OEM fork fluid on their Classic range of bikes. Not sure why they bother, seeing the engine takes 15w50 and it doesn't save buying other oil. But maybe you're onto something. Most owner's who've changed fork oil in their Enfields mention the foul goopy filth that comes out. My Continental GT has proper fork oil. It works well. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by LANCER on 02/15/16 at 08:19:01 Vaguely interesting. |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by cheapnewb24 on 02/15/16 at 08:28:31 Yep. Gizzo, when you refer to "foul goopy filth" , does that mean that 10w-30 for the Royal Enfields is a bad idea? You say that I'm "on to something." I'm not quite sure I get it. :-? |
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Title: Re: Rotella as fork oil? Post by gizzo on 02/15/16 at 08:54:10 Have a wild guess. |
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