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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PPM
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Message started by Dave on 01/06/16 at 05:38:44

Title: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PPM
Post by Dave on 01/06/16 at 05:38:44

I contacted Shell and they state they have not changed their ZDDP level. Here is a copy of their response when I stated their ZDDP level was reported to have been reduced to 1,100 ppm:

Dave,

Your information is incorrect. The zinc content of our Shell Rotella T multi-grade oils (including Shell ROTELLA® T Triple Protection Oil SAE 15W-40 and Shell ROTELLA T6 Full Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40) has not changed since the 2006-2008 timeframe, and continues to be approximately 1200 ppm.

Thank you for your interest in Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State Lubricants!

Regards,
Edward A. Calcote
Staff Chemist
Shell Lubricants North America Technical Information Center

I have lost the reference to the 1,100 ppm that started this discussion and resulted in the change to the ZDDP blend table....anyone know where that discussion is?

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Serowbot on 01/06/16 at 06:22:36

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1446553641/0

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Dave on 01/06/16 at 06:27:57

3A2C3B263E2B263D490 wrote:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1446553641/0

Serowbot:

That thread doesn't include the source of the 1,100 PPM rumor. Somebody posted a test result or some data that showed Shell had lowered the ZDDP level, and I was trying to find that source to send it to the fellow at Shell.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Serowbot on 01/06/16 at 06:42:23

??... This it??...:-?...
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1445393785/30#30

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Dave on 01/06/16 at 06:52:30

Yep....thasit:

I will send them this link, and see what the comment is about the Zinc level.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/May%202013/rotella.htm

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Serowbot on 01/06/16 at 07:01:15

Glad you contacted Shell... not only gives us the correct info, it lets them know of our concern about zddp levels...

"All hail Shell Rotella!"... ;D...

Thanks, Dave... 8-)

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Rodger on 01/06/16 at 07:38:45

So, just to be clear, adding 1 fluid ounce of Redline to 1 gallon of Rotella 15w40 "dino oil" still gets us in the 1400 ppm range, right?

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/06/16 at 09:16:38

http://www.ecooptimized.com/index.php/gasoline/80-three-way-catalysts-aging-causes-of-failure-and-deactivation-.html

Strangely, this article seems to suggest that zinc and phosphorus hurt the engine. :-? :-? :-? Whaaat!? >:(

Maybe they are referring to other contaminants????

Maybe they are thinking about O2 sensor damage? Does it destroy them by the way, or just get them dirty? Can they be cleaned?

Here's something on ZDDP levels at various years.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=printthread&Board=1&main=73571&type=thread

Looks like Rotella already has a good amount of the stuff compared to the typical oils of the past. Any addition is more like "just a pinch more." A teaspoon, or two, at the most, should be all that is needed.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Art Webb on 01/06/16 at 09:30:46

st 1200-1400, it's good for the engine, above that it can hurt it
below that, as the article states, it damages the catalysts
This is the reason most motor oils don't have it any more

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by prechermike on 01/06/16 at 10:52:28

YOU MEAN I BOUGHT A BOTTLE OF THAT RED LINE STUFF FOR NUTHIN!

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/06/16 at 11:51:55

Well, you could use a little of it.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Dave on 01/07/16 at 05:02:05

I have sent a request for the Chemist at Shell to see if he will comment on the accuracy of testing for ZDDP.

The definitions for ZDDP I found states: "Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (often referred to as ZDDP) are a family of coordination compounds developed in the 1940s[1] that feature zinc bound to the anion of dithiophosphoric acid. These uncharged compounds are not salts. They are soluble in nonpolar solvents, and the longer chain derivatives easily dissolve in mineral and synthetic oils used as lubricants."

When testing is done they don't report on the amount of ZDDP in the oil - instead they provide the content of Zinc and Phosphorous.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/May%202013/rotella.htm

I am currently thinking that the testing process most likely cannot test for the combined Zinc/Phosphorous that makes up the ZDDP....and in the testing process the ZDDP is disassociated into the separate Zinc and Phosphorous contents. And there most likely is some loss of accuracy in the testing process a well.

Hopefully the Chemist at Shell will help to clear this issue up for us.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Dave on 01/07/16 at 05:58:56

Well....no luck with that request.

Dear Sir,

We do not comment on analyses or methods performed by other laboratories. You would need to contact them directly for information on their methods, procedures, and repeatability etc….

Regards,

Shell Technical

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/07/16 at 07:02:44

In other words, Shell stands by their lab tests and will not engage in a contest with someone who claims otherwise.
Thanks for the efforts, and, if I was doing it, the only next step I see is contact the lab that st a rted it.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by stewmills on 01/07/16 at 11:37:10

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I might have a way of providing some preliminary tests/analysis, but I'm not certain it will provide positive results or results that are of value. I work (5 months new to this industry) in the nano-scale industry and we work with enhanced darkfield hyperspectral imaging. What this means is that I can look at particles (down to about 20nm) suspended in well vortexed solution (oil) and get an idea of the concentration (percentage of particles identified in a certain spatial area) that with some math could elude to the concentration levels of the ZDDP. I can get some images of the standard RT6, ZDDP, and RT6 with ZDDP and see if we can ascertain something. The trick is whether or not I can separate what particles are ZDDP and what particles are other stuff, but the software has tricks that may let me figure that out.

Making no promises, but I'll see if I have time next week to get something underway.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by Dave on 01/07/16 at 11:51:57

stewmills:

I don't know about the others - but it really wouldn't give me any additional piece of mind.

I believe that Shell is putting 1,200 ppm of ZDDP in their oil, and that the Savage motor will hold up just fine with that concentration. And I also add 1 oz. of Redline ZDDP to each gallon of oil to get up to 1,400 ppm....as I have a cam that has been hardwelded and has some additional lift.

I never worry about an oil failure with the Rotella in the engine....and hopefully I keep an eye on the oil level.

Title: Re: Shell Rotella - ZDDP level remains at 1,200 PP
Post by stewmills on 01/07/16 at 11:57:00

Roger that, Dave. I get the jug and drop in the ZDDP and just roll on, but I drive like a grandpa most of the time so I don't worry about my engine really needing super special treatment because of my (lack of) hard riding. But knowing what we all know I think I'd be a fool to not add it as preventative maintenance.

It may prove nothing, but I'll still see what I can come up with. If anything it might just give us something neat to look at. ;)