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Message started by Savageman on 01/05/16 at 16:40:57

Title: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/05/16 at 16:40:57

Can the timing be adjusted? If I put a timing light on it where should the mark be? I know some oil will come out of the inspection hole but there's no where else to check it or is there? Put the bike on my floor jack to keep it level and fire it up.

It can't have fixed timing like a old faithful Briggs and Stratton engine?

There must be a way to adjust it???

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/05/16 at 17:20:44

Its not impossible,but not something just anyone can do but, nobody who has done it was so thrilled with it that it became something to put on the

List of stuff to do
to get it running good.

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by oldNslow on 01/05/16 at 17:28:00

Quote:

It can't have fixed timing like a old faithful Briggs and Stratton engine?

Sure can.

No provision for adjustment. Unless you can figure out a way to rewire the igniter. Or relocate the pickup relative to the rotor.

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Kris01 on 01/05/16 at 17:46:02

It can be adjusted but I don't remember how. It's not a simple process. It's probably not even worth your time. If you want better performance just tune your carb properly.

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by verslagen1 on 01/05/16 at 19:38:29

Non adjustable timing.
There's a Hall sensor inside the stator cover giving a pulse every revolution to the CDI

CDI adjusts the timing as follows:
5° ± 2° BTDC at 2000 RPM
30° ± 2° BTDC at 4000 RPM

What you would do to adjust it is remove the stator cover, remove the sensor and slot the mounting hole hoping you go the right way. :-?

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/05/16 at 21:14:31

I haven't looked yet but does the stator have timing marks on it? Or just TDC? Maybe have to use a degree wheel and put my own marks on it...

I was thinking about slotting the p/u coil as well. If the timing doesn't need any tinkering then it's not worth it. But the old days with points and a adjustable plate it was a big deal. So what has changed?

Curious to see where the timing is at with the TDI in control. :-/

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/05/16 at 21:21:51

Unless there is really something weird about how this system works, it should be that you simply figure out which way the engine normally turns, and then push the sensor in the opposite direction for advance and the same direction for retard. Am I not correct?

If the engine loses power and idles slower, possibly getting louder without pinging or knocking, it's retarded. If the engine speeds up its idle and gets quiet but is prone to knocking, it's advanced. However, if it's TOO advanced, it might slow down then too... and it will knock badly.

Ignition advance = knocking

Retard = no knocking

Yay! :D

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/05/16 at 21:29:09

;D

Of course, it will generally make the most power when it's advanced, but only up to a point. Retarding might give some advantages in the extreme low end of the rpm range (near stall), and should help prevent knocking.

Of course, what do I know, I'm the Cheap Newb! :D

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/05/16 at 21:33:31

I believe you would go opposite way of crank rotation for advancing timing since the magnet will pass the hall sensor sooner.

Also if I remember correctly the amount of movement would be 1/2 the actual degree of rotation since the cam and spark timing are 1/2 speed of crank. :-?

Sounds complicated maybe not worth messing with?

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/05/16 at 21:43:23

You could do the math...

Or you could just move it, and see if it works.

If it knocks easily at running temp and typical fuel and other conditions, you are too advanced.

If you lose power and fuel mileage, you are too retarded.

From what I gather, you might not want to push the knocking envelope too close. You might have harsh engine pressures but be just short of knocking, and not be able to tell it. I don't know about the sources though. It's just something I remember reading or something.

Just go by feel, and hope for the best. :)

Do the calculations if you wish and compare the numbers against industry standards for timing with similar conditions. However, that may take a lot of research.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. If it works, it works.

Could there be something wrong, and you not notice it? Possibly. There are risks with anything.

I can say that it will probably be more sensitive to lugging with advanced timing. :(

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/05/16 at 22:02:24

I'll look into a electronic form of adjusting the timing.

It needs a circuit that will electronically advance or retard the signal from the p/u coil hall sensor. Then this can be wired in series with the p/u sensor and have a adjustment knob (pot) on it.

And like a Model T you could adjust the timing while riding and feel the difference! ;)

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 01/05/16 at 22:28:01

I am not an electrician or electronics specialist, but if you are saying that you know exactly how these things work, and that you can rewire this thing to use a variable resistor (I assume that's what a trimpot is) in order to adjust the timing electronically on the fly, then that would be cool. :)

Maybe you can test it, and post the mod in the Tech Docs for us all to try. :)

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/05/16 at 22:35:37

I'll see what I can come up with after speaking with some colleagues of mine to see if it can be done cheaply and reliably.

I'll post it if it's feasible and functions. And hopefully doesn't burn a hole in the top of the piston.

Newby to this forum but old timer to electronics, engines, and mechanical things. Love this stuff! :)

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Dave on 01/06/16 at 03:45:54

7B495E494F4D4549461D1E280 wrote:

But the old days with points and a adjustable plate it was a big deal. So what has changed?

When you adjusted the points using a feeler gauge....there was a bit of error/play in the method, and as a result the points didn't always open at exactly the correct instant - therefore you had to rotate the distributor to get the timing proper. Distributors also had a mechanical advance, and the springs and weights could be changed to alter the advance curve if needed. (Today the pointless ignitions and electronic advance are not subject to those same variations).

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/07/16 at 07:57:29

My point is that the ECU makes those changes for us automatically based on the design of the ECU software.

So if we were able to check the timing and change it on the fly it would be a important part of tuning it up to it's full potential.

The way it's "Detuned" now it puts out 30HP? A 650 with a 4 valve head should be closer to 50HP IMHO. ::)

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Art Webb on 01/07/16 at 08:27:44

Not when it's air cooled with low compression
Kawasaki's 500 Parallel twin, in the Ninja 500, was water cooled, revved to near 10k RPM, and made 50 hp, and despite the best efforts of some EX owners, that was pretty close to it's full potential
This is a low revving, low compression, air cooled single
Also the exhaust port on the S40s engine isn't very well designed

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by mjs3790225 on 01/07/16 at 08:29:52

The pickup coil isn't really a Hall effect sensor. It's combination of a magnet and a coil of wire. It generates power when metal passes over it. It's more similar to AC power than DC.

This is the only positioning sensor our motorcycle has for electronically referencing piston position. Making a more powerful ignition control box would greatly benefit from incorporating additional sensors. I imagine our current one has a lot of safety-slop built in because of this.

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/07/16 at 08:37:40

Now your talking! It shouldn't be a difficult thing to replace the TCI with a adjustable CDI unit.

My daughter's scooter has an adjustable timing CDI ignition box on it. The p/u coil is very similar to the Suzuki p/u coil. And they aren't expensive either. Hmm... I'll have to get out the wiring schematic and see how to wire one in place of the TCU.

Any other ideas for switching to CDI ignition? :-?

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Steve H on 01/08/16 at 04:36:02

I had an idea about doing that a while back. I didn't follow-up on it though since I don't have ignition problems.
I did find that the DC CDI like is used on scooters has basically the same inputs. It inputs both sides of the pickup coil, + and - 12v, and outputs + and - for the coil.

Seems to me that the timing pickup for those is 36º BTDC. I am not sure where our pickup is in relation to tdc. That could be a game changer if it's very far off from that. You'll probably also need to change to the small coil that is used by those CDI boxes. It would be nice to have a $25 CDI instead of the expensive box that is currently used.

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Savageman on 01/08/16 at 14:51:53

So you have seen the CDI boxes with adjustable timing then? It might be a worthy experiment to try it out just to see if any performance is gained.

I don't see any major issues with wiring in a CDI and a HV coil temp. While using the Suzuki P/U coil.

A adjustable CDI box and a HV CDI coil would be less than $40.00

Title: Re: Timing?
Post by Steve H on 01/12/16 at 18:41:39

The only real problem I see would be pickup position. If it's too far from where it is on the scooter, it'll have to be moved or the idea dropped.

I was thinking about it more along the lines of something much easier and cheaper to get if the TCI box ever decided to go belly-up on me. Just about any place that repairs chinese scooters will have one of the boxes and a coil.

Many of the 4-wheelers also use the same box and coil. You just have to make sure it's DC instead of AC powered.

I contacted one of the manufacturers of the adjustable timing units one time and was told that the start and high end timing are the same as the standard. The only difference is the advance curve in the middle can be adjusted. They specifically said it won't increase the top-end timing at all so no additional top-end speed.