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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Muslims today in their Old Testament? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1450221110 Message started by WebsterMark on 12/15/15 at 15:11:50 |
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Title: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/15/15 at 15:11:50 The question about the Koran in my mind is this: The Old Testament in the Bible records God demanded his followers kill their enemies in extremely violent ways. Ways that ISIS hasn't thought of. However, as the Jewish people 'settle in' from a Biblical point of view, the message shifts. The New Testament and the message of Jesus do away with the concept of a Kingdom on Earth and shift to the Kingdom of God, which is not based on earthly land, material goods etc... The Bible ends with instructions to love your neighbor, those who live by the sword die by the sword, turn the other cheek, when a thief ask you for your coat give him your shirt too. In other words, the violence of the Old Testament was necessary to establish a nation and now that it's established, peace should reign going forward and the Gospel is to be preached, but violence is not demanded to those who reject. In the place of violence is prayer and love. Now, I've not studied the Koran. Maybe someone on here has. My question is simply this: Does the Koran indicate modern day Muslims are in the middle of their version of the Bible's Old Testament? Meaning the violence will have a 'closing date'? Or does the Koran indicate there is no close to violence until all are converted or dead? Any thoughts on that? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/15/15 at 15:53:45 Any thoughts on that? Let me say I am no expert on Islam. From the little I have read I can ascertain the following. The Koran was written between 630 - 650 not long after Mohammad's death. The Bible, more so the New Testament provides guidance which is theoretical in nature. The Koran is literal for the most part and it provides definitive guidelines. If their is any confusion or conflict what the message is, the latter verse sets the precedent. I did not see anything which would lead me to believe there is a closing date so to speak. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/15/15 at 17:08:59 Web, I get your question, and I see how, and what you infer to, but, it doesn't fit. The only commonality I see is they are both beliefs/religions. Now Christian zealots still deceive themselves, as do Muslims, as do conservatives, as do liberals, acting out in what I see as detrimental behavior to a healthy society. It really isn't any different motivation than what it was for you to pose such a question, at its root. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/16/15 at 06:32:08 wow Ray; you're a million miles off base on this one. My question is an honest one. I don't know the Koran, but I know the Bible. If a religious text is the framework for behavior, then what does that text say about violence in support of it's goals. Taken as a whole, the Bible for Christians ultimately ends up laying out a case against violence. Taken as a whole, does the Koran lay out a case for violence or not? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/16/15 at 06:50:28 How do you work the Torah into this logic?... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/16/15 at 07:30:13 Go ahead and work it in. Does the Torah call for violence in an open ended fashion? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by HovisPresley on 12/16/15 at 07:48:21 Yes, the Torah does call for violence ( and peace). |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/16/15 at 08:13:38 Does the Torah call for violence in an open ended fashion? How about the "Protocols"? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/16/15 at 09:22:54 4057515D5242300 wrote:
Not familiar with the "Protocols". What is it? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/16/15 at 10:32:59 Quote:
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/16/15 at 10:55:24 2137203D25303D26520 wrote:
Will they still clean chimneys if they succeed? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Paraquat on 12/16/15 at 11:09:47 Why are you guys still reading books written thousands of years ago. We have the internet now. It's okay to expand your minds. To choose your own belief of right and wrong rather than be indoctrinated or conscripted. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/16/15 at 12:42:32 69584B58484C584D390 wrote:
And the info on the Internet is new and novel or was just C & P'd from a book :D |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Paraquat on 12/16/15 at 13:08:39 Well, people wear clothing of mixed fibers and eat more than fish on Friday now. You don't have to follow rigid constructs from days gone by. It's okay to evolve. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/16/15 at 13:34:53 6554475444405441350 wrote:
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by mpescatori on 12/17/15 at 12:07:54 OK, I'll try to provide my 2cents' worth AND keep it short... The Koran was written DURING Muhammad's life, I believe it was actually written by him under divine inspiration. The Torah = the Pentateuch of the Old Testament, i.e. genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Numbers. Believe it or not, there is no such thing as "a Christian Old Testament" :o The truth of the matter is Kings and Popes and Patriarchs (orthodox Archbishops) have cut&amended bits here and there, words or verses or chapters or even entire BOOKS! For example... take your KJV or later Bible, go to the Old Testament and read 2Maccabees 2:2 What does it say ? NOTHING ! IT DOESN'T EXIST! Whereas Catholic and orthodox Bibles do contain 1 and 2maccabees, KJV does not because it narrates the story of a Priest and his son Maccabeus who revolt against a tyrannical king... How could King James of England, with his Kingdom torn between Catholics and Anglicans, accept a Book in the Bible which justified revolt against the King? So he had it censored. Similarly... Gospel of Mark: it canonically ends with Mk16:8 HOWEVER it goes on with Mk16:9 and on which are today acknowledged to be a later addition. Catholic Orthodox Old Testaments vary in content because they are based on different Jewish traditions; the Orthodox base their OT on the Septuagint (~250BC) Catholics on the Masorean writings (~1000AD) You have all read the Book of Daniel, but the Jews themselves consider it to be a series of chronicles and writings by at least three different authors simply collected in a volume called "Daniel" and dismiss it as "unlikely and unreliable". An so on and so on... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/17/15 at 12:16:47 i've been interested in hearing your take on this but you didn't really address the question. I know most of what you said, but my question was basically does the Koran command violence on an ongoing basis? do you agree that the violence commanded by God in the Christian Bible more or less ends within the boundaries of the Old Testament? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/17/15 at 13:29:47 754740515647506F435049220 wrote:
No more so, than the Christian Bible... Quote:
True,.. but... The Christian Right use the Old Testament for most of their hate and prejudice... There are 800 million Muslim's,.. most, much more devout and peaceable than the average Christian... Estimates vary wildly, (10,000 to 100,000) are radicalized Muslim nutjobs... A search of YouTube,.. or Ted Cruz's endorsements,.. will bring up a slew of Christian nutjobs, that believe in bombing clinics, stoning gays, or doing whatever to Jews... or Muslims... and atheists... Religion is just plain nutty... the more literally you take it, the nuttier it is... The New Testament has some good rules to live by... I see little of that in Christian Right politics... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/17/15 at 17:19:46 A search of YouTube,.. or Ted Cruz's endorsements,.. will bring up a slew of Christian nutjobs, that believe in bombing clinics, stoning gays, or doing whatever to Jews... or Muslims... and atheists... I don't doubt they are out there; however, their is an enormous difference. The radical muslims are committing atrocities on a daily basis. Weekly Jihad Report Dec 05 - Dec 11 Jihad Attacks: 29 Allah Akbars*: 10 Dead Bodies: 295 Critically Injured: 333 http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/17/15 at 18:20:17 y 2E382F322A3F32295D0 wrote:
No more so, than the Christian Bible... Not true. The Christian Bible stops commanding violence. Thats my question. It appears the Korn does not but I dont know that for sure. Thats what I'm asking. Quote:
True,.. but... The Christian Right use the Old Testament for most of their hate and prejudice... The Christian is not revelant from a violence point of view. There are 800 million Muslim's,.. most, much more devout and peaceable than the average Christian... Estimates vary wildly, (10,000 to 100,000) are radicalized Muslim nutjobs... A search of YouTube,.. or Ted Cruz's endorsements,.. will bring up a slew of Christian nutjobs, that believe in bombing clinics, stoning gays, or doing whatever to Jews... or Muslims... and atheists... But those events rarely, rarely happen. No gays have been stoned by Christian right for sure. Religion is just plain nutty... the more literally you take it, the nuttier it is... The New Testament has some good rules to live by... I see little of that in Christian Right politics.. You're view of the christian right is seriously deranged. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by thumperclone on 12/17/15 at 21:54:51 the "new testament " was written hundreds of years after the death of Christ translations have bastardised the original script..ie sin for example religions are an attempt to control the masses |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/17/15 at 23:03:27 I've posted this before,.. but, apparently no one of faith ever challenges their beliefs (part of the faith thing?)... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=titus+flavius+jesus+nova Anyway,... setting the bible aside for just a moment,... history is telling a different story. Titus Flavius, and family... ruled Rome a little after "Jesus" time... ...and the "New Testament" seems a clever way to deal with a growing problem... Could be the original, "Conspiracy theory".... All we know of Jesus,.. comes from one originating source... Before you bash the cr@p out of me... I admire the teachings of Jesus... I don't believe in any God or religion... Jews, follow pagan myth... Christians follow Jews with an additional anti-hero... and Muslim's follow a yet newer Messiah... ... but,.. the teachings of Jesus are a good foundation of morality... I would dispute virtually none of the teachings in the New Testament... The real difference between Atheist and Secularist,... is not morality,.. just literalism... I believe, we all know right from wrong...innately... Religion,.. just promises a reward for what we know we should do anyway... JMHO,... disclaimer for Dawg... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by thumperclone on 12/18/15 at 00:09:33 yeah bot he preached love.... too bad it didn't take :( |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/18/15 at 03:48:20 5F495E435B4E43582C0 wrote:
That does it...... you finally crossed over the line >:( Wha it be bot, you ain't feeling my love :-* I believe, we all know right from wrong...innately... Religion,.. just promises a reward for what we know we should do anyway.... If this be true, as in written into our genetic code like you suggest, then please explain why so much destruction and evil. Seems a creek knows its way to the ocean, and follows that path, its man that dams it for his own personal gain. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/18/15 at 07:40:54 I said,.. we all know right from wrong... We don't all act on that... Mostly, greed gets in the way... along with the other 6 deadly sins... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/18/15 at 13:52:13 Religion,.. just promises a reward for what we know we should do anyway... Wrong answer. You can't do anything to earn the reward you're talking about. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/18/15 at 13:56:22 5F435E465B4E59484744454E2B0 wrote:
Actually, the Gospels were originally written within 30 years or so. Everything from more than a few hundred years ago has been 'bastardised' . I've read there's not a single original Shakespeare play transcript in existence for example. Doesn't change the meaning necessarily. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by HovisPresley on 12/18/15 at 14:51:30 Shakespeare's plays were in English. Even in parts of England today, you can hear people use words like "thou", etc, in normal speech. Jesus spoke Aramaic, years later it was written in Hebrew, translated into Greek, then over to Latin, then to English. It was edited all the way over 2000 years for various reasons (see MPesc's post). Not a good starting point, really...... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/18/15 at 15:57:22 Even in parts of England today, you can hear people use words like "thou", etc, in normal speech. No kidding, I went to England & Scotland once and their were plenty of times where I had no idea what someone was saying. :-? I was lead to believe this is where the English language was spawned. ;D Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/18/15 at 16:24:08 6076617C64717C67130 wrote:
Ok bot, here is where I think your thinking fails you...... You say we inherently know right and wrong. If that is true, you suggest we discard what is "normal" thinking/actions for us and instead choose a deadly sin. Sin is subjective, what one views as sin, another culture/society might not, I'll use ISIS as a extreme example. I am afraid I am doing a pizz poor job of explaining this, but you have presented a dilemma, in your observation. For is it not a belief, on your part, then, based on "sin", that seems to have its origin in a Judaeo- Christian context? Can you be "sorta pregnant"? :-? In all honesty I will hazard a guess, as to why. Because of our founding fathers, they used these very principals to draft societal laws, and declarations, based on religious instructions, as a foundation. You, me, all who pledge an allegiance to the union inadvertently accept these precepts as fact, AND......... Hopefully act accordingly, or shall we say, lawfully, before self. Armed with such knowledge and wisdom, these founders saw the danger of repeating the same outcome of Europe, so safeguards were inscripted in the hopes of avoiding such, including verbiage and instructions regarding separation. Dude..... you've been propagandized ;D |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/18/15 at 17:14:58 7B68706D687E6E090 wrote:
You lost me at,... "Ok bot",... ;D |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/18/15 at 17:30:39 1204130E16030E15610 wrote:
You lost me at,... "Ok bot",... ;D[/quote] Go toss a few long necks and try again ;) |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/21/15 at 05:30:43 i had a few but no idea either what you mean. Sin is not subjective when referring to sin as a violation of God's standard of perfection. Sin may not be easily recognized however, I think that's what your getting at. Seems like this deserves its own thread. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by mpescatori on 12/21/15 at 06:23:58 "SIN" is something very subjective to different societies and cultures. Define "SIN": one could say "Do not disobey, that is a sin"; I could object "Do not lead into temptation, that is an even worse sin". What's worse, stealing cookies from the cookie jar, or telling an otherwise unaware child "there's a cookie jar on the table full of delicious cookies BUT YOU MUST NOT EAT THEM!" :-? To some, "alcohol = sin". Generally white, anglosaxon Protestants (or DIY Born Again New Age Christians) will BAN alcohol from their home. In the Mediterranean, a family meal is not a family meal without at leat half a glass of wine in Mom & Dad's glass. In that same area, drinking until you're sick and drunk is considered self-ridicule and self-humiliaiton, while in Northern Europe binge drinking is often considered to be THE fun thing to do on weekends. From which "alcohol shall not enter this house / no drink in my home" etc... So, what is sin ? it is the violation of a rule generated not by law but by religion because the "sinner" disagrees with the validity of the rule. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by mpescatori on 12/21/15 at 06:28:54 "Sin is not subjective when referring to sin as a violation of God's standard of perfection." This is an inherently dangerous statement: in ancient times the Jews considered any illness as penalty for sin. Children born with imperfections were considered to be a punishment to their parents' sinning. See the parable of the man blind from birth "what abomination could his parents have committed?" So... WM, I hope you are perfectly fit and have no body flaws, a perfect silhouette and no flop ears, runny nose, flat feet, and that you do NOT speak with imperfections (which includes the typical drawl) Those by Biblical terms should be considered punishment for your sins. Go ! Repent ! Grammar School is near ! :D |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/21/15 at 07:29:45 "Sin is not subjective when referring to sin as a violation of God's standard of perfection." My statement stands. You are wrong on this one mpes. As I said, God's standard is perfection. Anything short of that is sin. Can you sin without knowing it? I was not defining any given actions as sinful or not. Some are easy, telling a falsehood for your own personal gain is a lie. This is an inherently dangerous statement: in ancient times the Jews considered any illness as penalty for sin. Some actions are labeled as sins by MANKIND, usually religious leaders, to gain control over people. You correctly point out alcohol. I was raised by my two aunts, Southern Baptist. Any alcohol was a strict no-no for Southern Baptist. However, any reading of Biblical text could easily dismiss that because the text warns against 'not being fooled' by alcohol. Is it a sin in God's eyes to drink wine? No, of course not. Is it a sin to drink wine in front of a recovering alcoholic and tempt him with a drink? yes, I think everyone would say so. Slavery is another great example. Southern Baptist in the past were told slavery was acceptable and religious leaders cited several Biblical examples. But any fair reading of those instances show their conclusions were simply wrong. I don't allow myself to be 'told' what the Bible teaches. I question anyone who says this is wrong or that is wrong. Don't confuse man made definitions of sin with God's standard of perfection. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by HovisPresley on 12/21/15 at 09:15:50 "Don't confuse man made definitions of sin with God's standard of perfection." ................................................... You're forgetting that the bible is man-made. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/21/15 at 10:10:26 Right vs wrong, is different than "sin", and that's different than legal...... "Sin" can be all kinds of nutty things... like wearing cotton and linen together,... or eating pork, or shellfish... or working on a Sunday. It may be "illegal" to jaywalk, even when there is no car in sight... or to not signal a turn, on an empty road... But, these things are not right or wrong... ... wrong vs right,... is doing something selfish that would harm someone else... We all know when we do that... and we know it's wrong. You don't need a god to tell you that. Our humanity tells us that. If you need help with that,... you are a sociopath... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by old.indian on 12/21/15 at 10:44:33 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35151967 For those who are so frightened of the Moslem terrorist next door. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/21/15 at 11:27:41 Breaks my heart... "Melissa Chance Yassini posted about her daughter's reaction to hearing proposals by Donald Trump to ban Muslims from entering the country. "She had began collecting all her favorite things in a bag in case the army came to remove us from our homes," Yassini wrote on Facebook about her daughter Sofia. "She checked the locks on the door 3-4 times. This is terrorism. No child in America deserves to feel that way." https://gma.yahoo.com/armed-forces-members-veterans-iwillprotectyou-muslim-child-says-223444516--abc-news-topstories.html http://a.scpr.org/i/abd63dd2ebd1b884c87f7b6a35ab6d97/115749-lsquare.jpg |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by old.indian on 12/21/15 at 14:20:56 This little girl's fears are understandable when you look at this government's history.... The "relocation camps" for the Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor, the relocations of various tribes to "reservations" etc. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/21/15 at 15:55:13 6C7A6D70687D706B1F0 wrote:
I'm throwing my bull$hit flag. This sounds made up. I'm guessing she had more than a little help from her mother. Lets just wait and see... |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/21/15 at 16:11:15 Web,.. you must buy those flags in bulk... ;D |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/21/15 at 16:40:11 This sounds made up. I'm guessing she had more than a little help from her mother. I agree with Web, mom got on the computer and posted something. There's no way to tell if the story has any merit, Trump never said anything about deporting Muslims. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by HovisPresley on 12/21/15 at 16:44:14 Of course the mum posted it. That's what it says. It doesn't mean that the little girl isn't scared. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/21/15 at 17:00:01 We don't know if the kid was scared or not. We don't know if the mom was making it all up. We don't know if it was an attack from the left. I think that is an exemplary example of a Saul Alinsky tactic. * RULE 5: “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/21/15 at 17:31:56 3720262A2535470 wrote:
Trump sure thinks so... He never stops. ::) |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by pg on 12/21/15 at 17:43:39 The corrupt American political establishment has issued a “get Trump” command to its presstitute media. Media sleeper George Stephanopoulos, a loyal follower of orders, went after Trump on national television. But Trump made mincemeat of the wh*re. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/12/21/donald-trump-an-evaluation-paul-craig-roberts/ [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlRTCxMAqC4[/media] Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/21/15 at 20:24:47 5A4C5B465E4B465D290 wrote:
There's a lot of bull$hit in the world. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/21/15 at 20:33:35 Both sides hate Trump. Enough to make me like him. He CAN'T be worse than the last few. Hillary can. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/21/15 at 21:04:05 Never thought I'd say it, but,... JOG... you lack imagination... ;D |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/22/15 at 03:24:26 C'mon bot, you swear your gal is going to win, why not convince others instead of showing us your Trump derangement syndrome? |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by WebsterMark on 12/22/15 at 07:07:12 I can't see Trump winning. Yes, he'd be better for the US than either Hopey or Hilary. For one thing, absolutely nothing would get accomplished for 4 years other than all of Hopey's executive orders reversed. Most every law congress makes things worse so a 4 year break would be great! Once the voting starts, it's gonna come down to Cruz vs. Rubio. I'd prefer Cruz but would settle for Rubio as opposed to Hilary or Sanders if Hilary gets thrown in jail. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/22/15 at 07:28:04 42514954514757300 wrote:
Do you really need convincing?... You've said as much yourself. |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by raydawg on 12/22/15 at 08:22:26 Once again, you just dodge the issue. I don't believe Trump will be there at the end, however, he has tossed the PC chit right where is should go, back into the face of those who pretend to appreciate free speech. Wasn't long ago Hillary said she was SICK AND TIRED of being called unpatriotic when she spoke out against the sitting administration. Even went on to claim it was this very opposition that made us patriotic..... Yet, you libs want to call names and label folk with scorn if they challenge your beliefs..... This is what people are tired of, and Trump has been the water boy, he won't be the quarterback, when it's all said and done. Now I am sure bot you will embrace once again Hilary's declaration and see that demonstrations and opposition to those you are oppose, as a good thing then ::) |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by Serowbot on 12/22/15 at 08:35:08 22312934312737500 wrote:
Pretty sure that's a triple negative... incomprehensible...:-/ |
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Title: Re: Muslims today in their Old Testament? Post by HovisPresley on 12/22/15 at 12:17:54 From 'muslims/Old Testament' to 'evil-Hillary versus ego-Trump'. The election isn't until the end of next year. 'Off Topic', perhaps? |
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