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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Putting guns to work...... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1449145521 Message started by raydawg on 12/03/15 at 04:25:21 |
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Title: Putting guns to work...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/15 at 04:25:21 Maybe instead of blaming guns for killing innocent people, we should turn them on those who have no qualms on using them to cause mayhem. Why can't we arm those who already know of proper gun use, luscence them and regulate them as another tool to fight terrorism? Proper vetting and training will be paramount, with strict adherence to the use of deadly force.... I think it's fair to say these perps act out only because they believe they have an unsuspecting targets, let's give them one more element to consider, even that knowledge of another gun pointed at them will slow their death spray down as they will be looking for those armed citizens with a barrel pointed at them maybe...,, |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by MnSpring on 12/03/15 at 08:26:20 “ … Why can’t we arm those who already know of proper gun use, … “ That is a Excellent Idea. and in many States, it is already done. Permit To Carry Laws, that have been enacted in 40 States. (Shall Issue) and in 10 States, (May Issue). And of those 10, their are 6 states, where, you can get one, if you Kiss the right Azz. Absolutely nothing requiring, Safety, Skill, Knowledge, Just, "How Brown is your nose”. So, the honest, upright Citizens, of this Country. Are, doing that. (Well, except for the places, the, ‘Fairy Dust’, sprinklers, have Demeaned, “Gun Free Zones”.) Or until, a 'wannab King', removes the 2nd Amendment. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/03/15 at 09:43:33 In CA, there's a gun safety class we have to take just to purchase a gun. And a CCW class to get that permit. Effectively, you can no longer open carry. Quote:
They say 8% of CA own a gun, about 16,000. If you taught a class of 30 for 8 hours, it'd take 533 classes to certify every owner... let's say once a year. 52 weeks a year, 10 or so training centers. I think that's very doable. Now, let's flip the coin, this would go a long way to weeding out those that shouldn't own a weapon. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by raydawg on 12/03/15 at 11:01:09 If you remove Chicago, Detroit, and New York out of the equations, the USA is rated 4th best in gun violence in the world..... These cities enact the most stringent gun laws too, yet..... Is it much of a leapt to think these terrorist ( and thugs ) understand there is less of a threat to them getting shot themselves, and that is a contribiting factor to gun use in those democrat heavens? |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Paraquat on 12/03/15 at 11:05:33 I have a Boyscout Rifleman handbook. My grandfather taught a civilian defense "class" for lack of a better term. He had a rifle that was technically property of the state, issued to train people. It's a bolt .22 dated 1947. The people from days gone by, are (not exclusively) those who stand back in awe when tragedies strike. Perhaps it would be wise to revisit these concepts. I'm not saying issue everyone a M1911A1 and a beret to patrol the streets but Versy's idea carries merit. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by pg on 12/03/15 at 11:20:17 Did you know you can concealed carry in Alaska, Vermont, and Wyoming without a permit? https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Ed L. on 12/03/15 at 11:56:04 I got a permit to carry here in Florida the Gunshine state. It only took 4 hours classroom training with the instructor pretty much giving the answers to the written test as we took it. The live fire test was silly, point the pistol at the target with your finger off the trigger then shoot one round then take the finger back off the trigger. They didn't even care if you hit the target or not. Don't know if I want people with that level of gun training walking around with guns but we do it here in Florida. Can't get rid of all the guns in the US, there are too many unregistered guns and gun nuts. Most of the NRA supporters are for a milita, even that wouldn't work because of the extra stress on law enforcement. Can't see an easy way to stop these mass shootings, guns, ammo and nut jobs are way too easy to come buy now adays. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by pg on 12/03/15 at 15:10:43 How long till the exec orders are given from Penn Ave? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Ed L. on 12/03/15 at 15:19:08 How long till the exec orders are given from Penn Ave? Don't know, I'm expecting a lot of talk but not a lot of action. Obama isn't going to upset the apple cart, bet he's going to kick it down the road for the next pres. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by MnSpring on 12/04/15 at 05:10:29 61407B680A240 wrote:
Well Ed, it sounds like the CCW, requirements in FL, are not what occurs in most of the rest of that States. However, since the, new carry law was passed, what has the crime rate in FL done.? I believe it has gone DOWN, every year, and the Population of that State, goes UP every year. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by WebsterMark on 12/04/15 at 07:26:40 5D6C7F6C7C786C790D0 wrote:
This is an interesting idea..... What if we set a goal that say 10% of the population went through training, regular background checks etc... to basically be 'deputies'. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 08:05:45 More guns... Yup, that'll fix it... That'll straighten these numbers right out... :-?... During an average year in the United States: 31,224 people die from gun violence. More than 100,000 of them are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents or by police intervention. 12,632 people are murdered with guns. 3,067 children and teens die from gun violence. 683 children and teens commit suicide with guns. 351 people are killed by police intervention. 17,352 people kill themselves. 679 are shot and injured during police interventions. 66,768 people survive gun injuries. 613 people are killed accidently and 2,161 children and teens are murdered. On an average day in the United States: 8 children and teens die from gun violence. 268 people are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents or by police intervention and 86 people die from gun violence, 35 of whom are murdered. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/15 at 08:58:25 some numbers will go up, some down. instead of 14 and 17 it could of been 2. on another website I frequent, one of the guys has a scorecard in his siggy. gun deaths vs everything else. usually there's less gun death. and as far as suicide goes, it'll happen, doesn't matter if it was by gun. [media]http://ActionAmerica.org/flash/gsdCount.swf[/media] |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 10:00:35 I'm not all that worried about falling down into a bucket of arsenic, and suffocating... ;D... http://i100.independent.co.uk/image/27549-1pykz2g.png |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/15 at 10:25:06 35263E23263020470 wrote:
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by raydawg on 12/04/15 at 10:35:16 Bot, your idelogy blinds you..... Hey, we could keep doing the same thing over and over again, and Obama can keep saying the same things over and over again, which, is the deffinition of insanity, OR.. Try something different. As I stated I am not for a wild west mentality, but I was trying to find a WORKABLE solution, not a PERFECT solution, and this was just a thought or idea I had. You know bot, murder is already against the law, the instrument used is just that, yet.....murder keeps happening, maybe Obama should focus on MURDER, you know, like in CHICAGO.... But no, lets demoque this idea that won't fix anything but give bleeding hearts a woodie. Dude, you want to try and add constructive dialogue or you just love childish BS? Think about it. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 10:45:06 Ummm... Serobot... You're following JOG's satire almost to the nail. "Well, I'm not sure what caused it, nothing, But understanding the Problem is Not as important as preventing the possibility of it occurring again. Since guns were involved, we Must BAN Guns. It's just that simple." http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1449109727/0 Are you simply assuming that firearms are causing the high murder rate? Perhaps it is something more complicated than that, like culture? The blacks, by far, kill each other the most. Do you seriously think that is just because they can legally get hold of weapons? In many cases, these deaths are caused by illegal weapons in cities which already ban them. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:03:46 I admit that even the white murder rate is higher than the other countries in your data, provided that the data represents good statistics. However, there could be other reasons that people are getting murdered in America. Maybe Americans are just plain mean :P. Bear in mind, Serobot, that if you keep pushing the Nanny State mentality, you may find that same Nanny State seizing your little Savage because "It is too dangerous." While it is doubtful that it will go that far, both motorcycles and the presence of dangerous weapons in this world both represent the struggle between freedom and safety. Motorcycling represents both the ideals of freedom and danger in the same package. How many friends have warned you about getting killed on your bike? Guns are similar. Life with them is more dangerous, but you have a better chance to defend yourself, friends, and family against bad people, amongst other things. The only way to secure everyone from gun violence is to get rid of them all or to make it really hard to get hold of them. Simply regulating or banning them won't do. Criminals don't give a blankety-blank what is legal or not. But then, we can also make it really hard to get motorcycles too. There is an old saying: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks." With that said, the real difference here is that bikes are more likely to hurt their owner than anyone else. The abundant presence of dangerous weapons in a society can hurt anyone. It's not about safety. Its about liberty and the dangers you're willing to live with in order to maintain the principles and lifestyle that is valuable to you. Being forced to be defenseless is not cool. >:( |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 11:24:54 ...but,.. there seems to be more bikes in "nanny state" countries than here... Ooh la la!... :-*.. http://thegrandtoureurope.com/wp-content/uploads/driving-vespa-in-rome-high-heels.jpg |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:35:11 Touche.... Value differences at work? |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:39:42 I guess that means all those extra motorcycle deaths take up the slack for murder deaths. ;D |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:44:14 Seriously, If we had some ethical concealed carry citizens in that place yesterday, the San Bernardino incident probably would have turned out alot differently. Being a hospital, firearms would have been banned inside. That goes to show how effective that junk is >:( :P Just kept out the good guys, assuming there would actually be a CCW there anyway. Instead, those little stickers on the door only makes the people inside defenseless, unless there are armed guards. Even that's no guarantee. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 11:50:08 But seriously,... If you had had a pistol in a room filled with 30 innocent people,.. and 2 people came in with ar-15's blazing, wearing full body armor... would you have pulled your weapon?... ...making yourself the focus in that room?... Do you expect 70 virgins as a reward?... |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:51:29 Seriously Serobot, do you dare to support those silly little stickers on the wall-- gun-free zones? Do you seriously think they help? |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:54:14 Hide behind something and go for headshot while the perp isn't looking. Be sneaky. ;) Yeah, you're right, if the perps are properly equipped, it's going to be tough, but its better than nothing. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:55:22 Besides, I'm not sure they were wearing armor anyway. We know they had tactical clothing, but that means nothing. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 11:58:29 Well, they might have had body armor, but I would wonder if some of those reporters even know what body armor is ::). I feel a little doubtful. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 12:04:55 43484541504E4557421214200 wrote:
Honestly,.. not really... But some people are just not comfortable with guns... and that is a significant percentage... They would like to be in a place where there aren't any. I am comfortable with guns,.. but I still don't like seeing them in line at HomeDepot, or at the gas stop... When I see them,.. I'm on alert... and usually find something heavy to hold in my hand... One wrong move, and there will be a cracked skull... This is not a pleasant way to live... I am a peaceful person... I don't know how,... but I wish I didn't have to see people like this. Why should we be so scared that we think we need a gun?... Tucson, ain't exactly Mayberry,.. but I've never felt the need to carry a gun in public... If someone wants my wallet, they can have it... I wouldn't kill someone over it... |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 12:18:55 I guess that is part of the reason for CCW, so people don't have to freak out from seeing one's weapon. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 12:36:39 When you see a policeman, soldier, armed guard, or other agent, do you act the same way? They are visibly armed, but I assume you trust the badge? How do you know that you won't stumble into trouble with one or two of them? They are people, you know. They are trained and screened, to an extent, but they are still people. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 12:53:01 293F28352D38352E5A0 wrote:
If I was well trained, I'd probably fare better than two armed guards. The perps would shoot them first because they're obvious, but they wouldn't even pay attention to me ;). It kinda depends on the details of the situation. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 12:58:10 In most close quarter situations you might be as well off, or better, armed with a table leg... JMHO 8-)... |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/15 at 12:59:06 2B3D2A372F3A372C580 wrote:
Yes, I would, you're in a room, you're already the focus. It may take a second to size up the situation... But If I had a book, I'd throw it. If I had a pencil, I'd throw it. If I had a chair, I'd charge. If I were already a ghost, I'd poke'm in the eye. with every last bit of my being. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/04/15 at 13:05:13 If I'm ever in that situation,... I want Versy there... 8-)... |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 13:06:37 Indeed, you do bring up a good point, firearms do begin to lose their effectiveness, in my opinion in very close quarter confrontations. Obviously, if someone is close enough to take the gun away from you, there is going to be trouble, especially if you don't know what you're doing. However, when farther than arms length, or club's length anyway, a gun would be quite helpful. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 13:09:35 382B3C3D222F292B207F4E0 wrote:
Yes, I would, you're in a room, you're already the focus. It may take a second to size up the situation... But If I had a book, I'd throw it. If I had a pencil, I'd throw it. If I had a chair, I'd charge. If I were already a ghost, I'd poke'm in the eye. with every last bit of my being.[/quote] YEAH MAN! ROCK ON! Now, if everyone would do that at the same time, we would have no mass murders ;) The unfortunate truth is that, ironically, no one wants to die. They try to prevent their death by doing everything but fighting like a maniac. Nobody, or to few, are willing to step up to the plate to fight in mortal combat, so everyone dies. I am guessing that idea must be studied a lot in game theory. Sounds like it would anyway. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/15 at 13:12:50 6F796E736B7E73681C0 wrote:
I know, my dead body will cover a dozen people. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 13:23:26 Being sort of a beekeeper, (I have bees last time I checked), this reminds me of Africanized or otherwise mean bees. While I've never had the opportunity to deal with those killer bees, I can say that the group attack mentality sure works for them ;) Well... unless the beekeeper's geared up really well... or can run really fast... but that's beside the point! :P |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by cheapnewb24 on 12/04/15 at 13:33:06 I guess taking away guns is like taking a bee's sting. Then all the mean little boys can beat up the bee hives without any repercussions. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by MnSpring on 12/04/15 at 14:06:18 1204130E16030E15610 wrote:
Bot, “we have been here, done that’ In many discussions. Those number are, ONLY, firearms, (They are, ’SPUN’, to get someone underwear in a bunch) It is, Just the SAME, as removing Cars, their will be less CAR accidents ! Compare, ‘VIOLENCE and Violent Crimes, of all Countries, And use, ALL, things, BB Bats, Golf Clubs, Screwdrivers, Etc, etc, etc. The, Homicide /Violent Crime, will NOT go down ! (The, Criminals, will just use something else) Only, changing the, ‘Attitude’, can make things change. Unintentional fall deaths 9.6 per 100,000 Motor vehicle traffic deaths 10.7 per 100,000 Unintentional poisoning deaths 12.3 per 100,000 (and on and on, and on. ALL, higher numbers than, 'gun') Guns, 5.2 per 100,000 So with, EXACTLY, the Same Logic, BANNING, ALL Steps/Stairs/Ladders/Scaffolding, will make, ’that’, number go, DOWN! BANNING, ALL, Motor Vehicles, will make, ‘that’, number go Down ! BANNING, ‘Drano’ (and like items), will make, ‘that’, number go Down! It is, NOT, the, ’thing’. It’s the attitude. Live in a ’Star-Trek’, Utopia? Yes, some day. Not today though. Want to commit a Crime with a Firearm, just go to a, ‘Gun Free Zone”, and the, Criminal, is the ONLY person with a gun. And they KNOW that. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by MnSpring on 12/04/15 at 14:21:20 Quote:
I agree. But now I ask why? I believe it is just, lack of, education. and, ’someone’, else, FEEDING them, fear ! Here is one case: One time, two of the students, (in a Class I teach), were from a long way away. These two Students, were from 2 different families. (We Always Encourage Parents/Guardians/ etc. to, ’sit in’, on the Class.) As, the drive was long. (Learned this afterword), the 4 parents, were going to take turns, driving the Students. First night, the one Mom was their, She had her book, and headphones with her i-pod, and sat in the back. After a hour, (3 hour class), she took off the headphones, and put down her book. Second night, Both Moms were their, The third, (and the rest of the classes), all 4 Parents were their. When Class was finished, those six people, came up to us. They all thanked us, Then one Mom said: “Ya know, this was So Interesting, I didn’t know anything about, ‘guns’, and I didn’t care to, until, I listened to this Class. I was afraid of, ‘guns’, and I was afraid, that my Son wanted to bring a ‘gun’ into the house. But not now.” (Their children had no desire to hunt, but they wanted to join the, then newly formed, Mn High School Trap League, which is one that requires this Class, to be involved) Then she also said: “This Class Should be mandatory in all Schools” Another event. Was in Ajo AZ. Borrowed a Jeep, left early in the morning, drove around the dessert. (was first time their). Coming back into town, it was dark, stopped at a gas station. A Cop, pulled in next to me, and also filled up gas. We talked for a bit. (He paid at the pump, I went inside). Walked around a bit, got some chips/pop/cigs, and paid for the gas. Everything was perfectly normal. Not One person even glanced at me sideways. When I got back into the Jeep, I remembered, I had my loaded Colt 45, strapped in front in my Bandoleer Holster. (Holster that sits in front of your chest). And thought, Gee, NOT ONE person Even Looked at me sideways, Not even a Cop. Apparently the people in Ajo, Are, Well Educated, and do NOT, ‘fear’, something they know nothing about. Or, it could have been, that had I made a ‘offensive move’, with the firearm. The Cop, Lady behind the counter, or the one other person in the store, would have done something about it. ! Yea, in a Church meeting, Hospital, School Play, etc. and a bunch of thugs come in shooting. Self Preservation Will be the first thing. Then, Offense, against the Criminals. And one could go on and on, about, “What If’s”. Point is simply. A Armed Citizen, may not stop a DFI, before the DFI does their, DFI things. BUT, their will certainly be LESS, people shot by the DFI. And the Next, DFI, will learn, ‘It’s NOT, ‘like shooting fish in a barrel”. If NO one Can, stop a DFI, other DFI’s will Learn. “ Fish in a Barrel ” So Far, What, have the DFI’s, ‘Learned’, about a, "Gun Free Zone” ? |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/04/15 at 19:21:31 4650475A42575A41350 wrote:
As soon as I saw it wasn't a hostage taking, robbery, something other than a bloodbath, I'd be doing my best to get a headshot off. An ankle, knee, armor is good, but a hit slows them, yeah, I'd be trying to hurt them. And if twenty of those innocents were carrying? Would you wanna have the AR15 and the armor and be facing 21 pistol packing patriots or what? Your beloved electeds have armed guards, as do their precious children, and that is as it should be. It's the upside down thinking that fewer guns equals safety that drives me to pull my hair. |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Paraquat on 12/05/15 at 03:31:33 5A495E5F404D4B49421D2C0 wrote:
http://https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d4/fb/6b/d4fb6b2839b4537b6acc711c2933fdfa.jpg --Steve |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by Serowbot on 12/05/15 at 06:57:07 Interesting stat I just read... Countries with high gun ownership, have higher burglary rates... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/05/15 at 10:16:35 And? |
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Title: Re: Putting guns to work...... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/05/15 at 10:18:10 4B545255484F7E4E7E46545813210 wrote:
As soon as I saw it wasn't a hostage taking, robbery, something other than a bloodbath, I'd be doing my best to get a headshot off. An ankle, knee, armor is good, but a hit slows them, yeah, I'd be trying to hurt them. And if twenty of those innocents were carrying? Would you wanna have the AR15 and the armor and be facing 21 pistol packing patriots or what? Your beloved electeds have armed guards, as do their precious children, and that is as it should be. It's the upside down thinking that fewer guns equals safety that drives me to pull my hair. [/quote] Before we analyze stats about burglary, how about we stayed with your point.. |
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