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Message started by troyrr on 11/30/15 at 12:47:02

Title: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 11/30/15 at 12:47:02

Five months ago I bought a 1987 Savage from a guy on Craigslist. It has a fresh coat of paint, but was all in pieces. I have slowly put it back together (I've never done anything like this before), and I've hit a few snags here and there, i.e. a few missing cables, screws, bolts, washers, brake pads, etc.

Anyway, its about 90% done. I spent Thanksgiving weekend wrestling with the stock carb. Here's what I've done so far.

- Cleaned the heck out of the carburetor multiple times.
- White spacer mod, including the Ryca jet kit making the Main Jet 55 and the Pilot Jet 150.
- Straight exhaust. Not sure of the brand because I picked it up at Bobs Used Motorcycle Supply here in Phoenix. (Which is a great place to get used parts)
- Raptor Petcock.
- Cone air filter.
- Float needle is new, as are the gasket, jets, and the screws on the top and bottom of the carburetor.
- Adjusted the mixture screw according the the Progressive Guide found on this site. (Many thanks for that BTW!)
- Vacuum line on the carburetor is plugged.

HERE ARE THE SYMPTOMS
The bike starts and runs perfectly... for about 3 seconds. Then it chugs until it dies, which takes another 5-7 seconds.

I haven't had time to test the Coil or the Stator, yet. Although, I have been told it might be bad fuel.

I tested the fuel flow from the Petcock, and it flows beautifully.

Anyway, any help would be appreciated. The weather here is perfect for a good ride, and I'm anxious to get back in the saddle.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by verslagen1 on 11/30/15 at 12:57:40

If you added a fuel filter in between the petcock and carb, remove it.
some filters just don't work with a gravity system.

cone filter, some have a heavy lip that blocks an intake on the upper part of the carb. and cone filters aren't great with this carb. if you can put a short straight duct (about the length of the original one) in between the filter and carb you'll be better off.

and if you don't have fresh fuel, waddayawaitinfor?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 11/30/15 at 15:06:00

I have two fuel filters, along with a box of spare parts. I have no plans to install them. I do have the original conduit thingy that went from the carb to the air box. I will give that a try. Maybe pick up a gallon of Premium on the way home.

Thanks for the help. Hopefully, I will have an update soon.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by verslagen1 on 11/30/15 at 15:09:36

regular is what's called for.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/01/15 at 05:06:16

Straight exhaust...? It otta run, I guess,,don't expect good performance or easy to tune.
Usually, when something is throwing me confusing signs, I shoot stuff in the intake. Ill prove it has fuel.
And, yeah, if the gas is iffy, ditch it. Regular is all you need.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 12/01/15 at 10:43:52

Bike still doesn't run. Same problem - runs great for about 3 seconds and then sputters and eventually stops.

The new gas helped. I can hear the difference. I'm not sure what to try next.

There are some baffles in the exhaust, but not much. It's loud. I'd like to solve the starting issue before I replace the exhaust.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 12/01/15 at 11:15:21

I just found this on another Motorcycle Forum. Could be worth a try.

"As is typical of many riders trying to analyze a problelm.............
Don't make this harder than it IS.

The symptoms you describe all point to a high voltage (spark) leak somewhere. Plug wires and boots would be the first choice; if the plugs are old, them too. When damp, the spark jumps to ground somewhere BEFORE reaching the plug. I have even seen it go down a crack in the white insulator of the plug itself.

ONLY AFTER that would I suspect coils next.

It is possible that something in the ignition module (CDI) is sensitive to moisture......but not likely.

Good luck. Keep us posted."

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by verslagen1 on 12/01/15 at 12:03:43

did you know that there's a screen in the float valve seat?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 12/01/15 at 13:46:48

I've never checked that screen. According to the schematic it looks tiny.

To be honest, I've got one friend who says it's electrical. I've got another friend who says its fuel. I've never built a motorcycle before so I am unsure. I will check the screen.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/01/15 at 13:56:02

726D6B6C71764777477F6D612A180 wrote:

Usually, when something is throwing me confusing signs, I shoot stuff in the intake. Ill prove it has fuel.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 01/06/16 at 10:57:40

Over the holidays I tried replacing the carb itself with one that is stock. I got the same thing - it started but then sputtered to a stop.

I tried replacing the jets on my first carb with stock jets and it sputtered to a stop.

I am convinced its a fuel issue. It fires up and runs fine for 1-3 seconds and then sputters to a stop.

I bought a petcock from a local dealer, which I thought was the Raptor. It may be one of the cheap Chinese knockoffs I've been reading about on this Forum. I have to check.

The spark plug is new and has no deposits on it and no discoleration. I gapped it according to the manual.

I tried running it without the air filter - same thing.
I have tried it with the stock exhaust - same thing.

I'm running out of things to try.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Steve H on 01/06/16 at 14:52:05

If it's fuel, or you suspect it is, take a plastic tank from a lawn mower or tiller or something and hook a piece of hose between it and the carb. If it's a fuel flow issue, it should run with a completely different fuel system.

If it's a coil or something electronic, it's gonna be harder to isolate since it isn't a total failure.

We are assuming your battery is fully charged and you are using fresh gasoline.

Try rocking the kill switch a few times just in case it's got a little corrosion. There is also a connector for the wiring up to the handlebars under the right front of the tank. It has been known to come partially apart causing strange running, stalling, not running, running symptoms.

Look over eveything real good. It's gotta be something simple that you just haven't seen yet.

Let us know how things progress.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by chzeckmate on 01/06/16 at 15:09:36

3C277E7D7C7B79764F0 wrote:

...unless the issue is in the carb. If the issue is before the carb then this would certainly prove it, though.

Question: After it sputters and dies can you start it right back up or do you have to wait awhile?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Steve H on 01/06/16 at 15:32:00

I'm thinking since he said he changed carbs, it's probably not it.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by chzeckmate on 01/06/16 at 16:37:08

78633A39383F3D320B0 wrote:

I'm thinking since he said he changed carbs, it's probably not it.

Very good point. That it came with two carbs raises questions for me though. Either the PO was experiencing a similar problem and was experimenting with a solution or the original carb had a problem. At a glance this certainly has the look of an air/fuel problem. Coil? Maybe, but out of all the times coil has been suggested in my experiences, it has been the problem exactly 0% of the time.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Savageman on 01/06/16 at 17:34:46

Check the rubber diaphragms on the slide needle and the air cut off valve on side of carb. If they have a leak it won't run. Also did you use air to blow out all the little passage ways with the jets removed? If there's a piece of crap in there no run either. As always Good Luck.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Steve H on 01/08/16 at 04:52:02

I have to agree about the coil. It's sort of an out there possibility but lick Chzekmate, It usually is not the problem. I've had a grand total of 1 coil in my life that was bad out of all the bikes, cars, lawn mowers, weed eaters, etc. Plenty of fuel delivery problems though.

Usually a coil either fires or it doesn't. It won't get hot enough in a few seconds to start acting up if it's heat related.

Do you, by any chance, know what the jet sizes are in your carb?
Someone else already asked and I didn't see an answer, will it start right back up after it quits or do you have to wait a while?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Dave on 01/08/16 at 04:54:20

You stated the float needle is new....did you also replace the seat? There is a small filter screen on top of the seat, and if that is clogged it could be restricting the fuel flow.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 02/06/16 at 21:18:26

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still tinkering. To answer your questions:

Main Jet 55 and the Pilot Jet 150.

Yes, the screen beneath the float needle has been cleaned. Vigorously.

I tried it with stock jets and stock exhaust. Not as loud but the same result.

Fuel is new.

I haven't blown air through everything in the carb. I will try that next.

I just replaced the Float Bowl Gasket, because it started leaking.

Battery is new and fully charged.

The guy I purchased it from was moving his shop at the same time. He gave me a bunch of extra spare parts: two air boxes, two wiring harnesses, two headlights, some missmatched controls, extra mirrors, etc. Almost enough to have a garage sale!

And yes, I did replace the coil. And, you are right, that wasn't the issue.

I also replaced the fuel line as the other one was starting to get brittle. Still had a little flex to it, but not much. The new one is much more flexable. Hose clamps are new.

I was thinking of scraping a few bucks together and buy a VM carb from Lancer, but I'd really like to solve this issue first.

Thanks for the help.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Serowbot on 02/06/16 at 21:30:42

2F29342229295B0 wrote:

Main Jet 55 and the Pilot Jet 150.

Reverse that... ;D

PS... I know it's not your problem, but,... a #55 pilot is just a gas waster with the stock piston...

PSS... just a long shot... you have a Raptor, is the vacuum tap on the carb capped?... if not, it will cause a huge intake, air leak...

Best luck... 8-)

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/07/16 at 09:33:21

Any time I don't know what is wrong I just shoot ether at it. If it doesn't burp or fart, eliminate the gasoline and shoot ether at it.
Check the plug, see if it's wet. AFTER blowing the dirt from the recess it sits in.
A spare plug, pull the plug wire, stick it on the spare plug, ground it, hit start. PROVE that the ignition will spark a plug WHILE the starter is under full load. Yes, that means the plug must be installed.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 02/10/16 at 12:39:05

Same symptoms: Starts. Runs for 3 sec. Chugs untl it dies.

Last night: 55 Pilot. 147.5 Main. Started, idled too low. Ran until I touched the throttle.

Cleaned black deposits from the Plug.

Today: 47.5 Pilot. 147.5 Main. Starts. Then dies. Lots of white smoke.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Savageman on 02/10/16 at 22:00:29

White smoke or blue? That would indicate oil is fouling the combustion.

Was the bike tipped on it's side at all for a period of time? Oil may have flooded the combustion chamber. Or the rings and or valve stem seals are worn out. Hard to tell without seeing it.

You really need to check the basics first. Valve lash needs to be at .004 intake and exhaust, compression needs to be at least 175 or higher psi to run right. :-?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 02/11/16 at 11:40:09

White smoke. I didn't have any smoke with the larger jets.

The bike was stripped down and repainted about 2 years ago. All the oil was drained prior to painting. It sat for a year in a workshop. I put oil in about four months ago. I've never dumped the bike over.

I'm going to strip down the carb one more time and make sure everything is clean. Blow air through everything. I have a cap on the vaccum line.

It's beyond my current ability and resources to start pulling the motor apart.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Serowbot on 02/11/16 at 14:35:07

White smoke, (not blue/grey)... is usually water vapor...
That may come from sitting in a cool damp place,.. water collects in your muffler and evaporates out when you start up...
Harmless...

You can also get white smoke if you've added to much additive to your fuel... (something like Seafoam)... :-?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by pg on 02/11/16 at 15:36:40

I'm subscribing to this thread because I'm having similar issues with the other bike I have. I have rebuilt the carb, replaced the petcock, new fuel line, new vent hose, and new ignition coil. I can genuinely empathize! I'm certain my issue is electrical though. I'll be following the thread, good luck!

Best regards,

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Savageman on 02/11/16 at 18:36:53

From what I gather and your level of expertise you really need to have an experienced mechanic look it over. The basics need to be right or no go.

Valve lash needs to be at .004 intake and exhaust, compression needs to be at least 175 or higher psi to run right and decompression cable disengaging all the way.

Maybe you can find a member in your area and work something out?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 02/24/16 at 16:40:34

Thanks for all your help.

pq, I will be taking it to a mechanic this week. I will post an update when it's done.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 03/11/16 at 11:28:13

I just heard back from my Mechanic. It looks like the Cam Chain is out of adjustment. He wants $600 to do the repair. My question is: is this something I can do myself?

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Savageman on 03/11/16 at 11:53:36

Maybe you can find a member in your area and work something out?

Too complicated a job for beginners. :o

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Ed L. on 03/11/16 at 15:20:29

If the bike only runs for a few seconds then check/clean/replace the pilot jet. Just went through it with my bike. There's enough fuel in the bowl to let the bike run for a good minute so if it is shutting off right away there's something wrong past the float assembly.
Does it run any better with the choke out or does it only start when you use the choke.
Check for a vacumn leak by spraying the outside of the carb with carb cleaner while cranking the engine, you will need three hands for it or tie the clutch handle in while trying to start it.
Keep the stock petc0ck in prime if you are still using one, it bypasses the diaphram.
It sounds like a fuel problem but it could be electrical which is another can of worms.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Art Webb on 03/14/16 at 08:41:07

4B4D50464D4D3F0 wrote:

I just heard back from my Mechanic. It looks like the Cam Chain is out of adjustment. He wants $600 to do the repair. My question is: is this something I can do myself?

Unless it has a ton of miles your cam chain is fine
the stock cam chain adjuster would come apart long before the cam chain wears out
additionally, the cam chain would not cause the symptoms you describe

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Dave on 03/14/16 at 08:49:38

5B5D40565D5D2F0 wrote:

I just heard back from my Mechanic. It looks like the Cam Chain is out of adjustment. He wants $600 to do the repair. My question is: is this something I can do myself?

Most likely your mechanic is not familiar with the Verslagen modifications to the cam chain tensioner. It allows you to move the tensioner to the second hole, and get twice the mileage out of your cam chain and a considerably lower cost.

And.....as others have said....a loose cam chain is noisy and potentially harmful if the tensioner comes apart - but it does not cause the bike to run poorly.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Serowbot on 03/14/16 at 10:16:13

2 questions...

Where are you?... (someone may be close to help)...

Has this bike ever run since the bobber conversion?... (it's possible we have a rectifier/wiring mismatch)...

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by troyrr on 03/24/16 at 10:00:19

It looks like the guy who worked on this engine before I bought it used an orange sealant over the cylinder gasket. My mechanic thought some of this sealant might have gotten into the engine. He described a banging noise right before the motor shuts off. Maybe something is stuck?

You are right about him not knowing about the cam chain adjustor.

I haven't tried replacing the Rectifier. I've replaced the Starter and Igintion Coil. The wiring looks right, though.

Title: Re: Bad Stator? Coils? Or Fuel
Post by Philmh on 03/24/16 at 19:39:58

Hey Serowbot,

What would indicate a wiring mismatch?

If it has run for a considerable amount of miles, say 1500, can one rule out this as a diagnosis?

Not trying to hijack the thread, looking for clarification as I am having some similar issues.