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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Where does the energy come from? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1445785007 Message started by Oldfeller on 10/25/15 at 07:56:47 |
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Title: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/25/15 at 07:56:47 Where does the energy come from? We all have/have had magnets and we know how to use them. But I am forced to ask the question again ..... I just burned an old bed and some junked furniture and a couple of other odds and ends out in the yard (its legal where I live). Lots of tire killing deadly little staples and such like stuff left in the ashes, so I got out my 2" by 1" by .250 thick supermagnet and stuck it on the end of a piece of conduit and lightly skimmed the ash layer with it. Staples from 2-3" away from the sweep path were LEAPING up out of the ashes, making little ash explosions as they did so and making little click noises as they hit the magnet. Before long I had a fuzzy steel ball of staples and eyelets and other hardware on the end of my stick. So I washed it with the hose and then pulled them off with my fingers. Not all that easy to do, mind you. Full finger force and the sliding to a corner was used a lot. I swept those ashes 3 separate times and on the last pass I was digging the dirt just to pick up just a few tiny staples. And a lot of rust particles. Then I had to clean the magnet to get all the rust particles off of it -- dust-like rust that you have to rub off with a piece of cloth to get it off the magnet. ============================= The Earth has a huge magnetic field that is said to come from the rotation of the iron core. It performs work (yes deflecting all the solar wind that would blast us into extinction is work that is being performed all the time). If the energy came from the Earth's rotation, shouldn't it slow down? There was work done making those staples explode up out of the ashes --- if the work I had to do to get them off the magnet was any indicator this was a right significant little work event. Where did the energy to do that work come from ????? It take a force to hold magnets up against your refrigerator, pull one off if you don't believe me. Where does the energy to do that force come from ????? |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by raydawg on 10/25/15 at 08:18:35 Wow..... I just sorta answered this today: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1445565053 |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Serowbot on 10/25/15 at 08:26:16 Sometimes,.. the magnets on my fridge get tired and jump off... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by raydawg on 10/25/15 at 08:32:32 697F68756D78756E1A0 wrote:
Turn your fridge over bot, that should fix it....... |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by gizzo on 10/25/15 at 14:02:16 77647C61647262050 wrote:
You lost me at "god". |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by old_rider on 10/26/15 at 10:11:33 746E6A686957667573756E636062070 wrote:
You lost me at "god". [/quote] Third post.... word.... religion.... ok I stopped reading too... religion has nothing to do with magnets or how they work. Only a devout religious person would make a comparison.... i'm done. You do realize Old Feller, that you held on the end of your stick, a power that overcame the gravity of the earths pull !!! Those staples did not have a change against your awesome power!! Hey!!, if we put a super electromagnet in space, powered by the sun and turned it on to draw it toward the sun and then to keep it from pulling away from the earth, we then use the backside to target, a "payload" on earth, could we pull things into orbit? Eureka!!! I have solved the reusable rocket problem! some one call DARPA I need funding! ;D :D :o :o 8-) ::) |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Serowbot on 10/26/15 at 10:24:13 0D0E06100B060710620 wrote:
How do you stop it from sucking yer' Savage into orbit?... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by old_rider on 10/26/15 at 10:28:09 4E584F524A5F52493D0 wrote:
How do you stop it from sucking yer' Savage into orbit?... ;D...[/quote] It would have to be from a POLAR orbit silly! ain't nothing magnetic up there cause of the big ol' hole in the atmosphere! wait... compasses point north... from SOUTHERN POLAR ORBIT! yeah.. that's it... So don't be riding yer savage to see santa, oh man! I forgot about santa! I better fill him in on my idea! ::) |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Dave on 10/26/15 at 11:08:20 485E49544C59544F3B0 wrote:
You have to tether the bike to the ground during the time of day when the magnet is overhead......and ride only when the magnet is on the other side of the planet. (The bad news is the Savage is going to feel like it weighs 800 pounds at the time of day when it is safe to ride). |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/15 at 12:06:50 So, what powers the magnet to cling to the steel tubing leg of my computer bench so tenaciously? It takes a measurable force of 2.3 ounces to hold the weight of the magnet up against gravity ..... actually it is a side clamping force that is actually a good bit greater than that as the coefficient of friction of plated metal on painted steel is less than 1. You can say it is "all the electrons spinning the same way" but that simply defines a permanent magnet but that does not say where the resulting "replenished, unchanging" work energy comes from when the magnet does physical acceleration type work. I use my magnet to do work, but it never gets weaker (that I can tell, anyway). What powers that magnet? Where does the seemingly endless energy come from that makes the staples and nails fly up from 2-3" away year after year? Like LENR, some things are now calling some basic physical laws into question and folks are being open minded enough to permit these questions to be asked -- when in the past they would have been poo-pooed or shushed as un-answerable. Magnetism ..... as a different force from gravity. Generated at the atomic level by electrons whirling in the same pathway or orientation, creating a inverse square projected force that is replenished endlessly BY THOSE ATOMS that can do work on the macro level without seeming to weaken or diminish much over time (as long as the atoms maintain that same orientation). As we develop better and better superconducting supermagnets, what will we be forced to learn about where/how movement energy is created and is always available ---- endlessly. We don't currently know where the energy comes from, but unless you want to toss conservation of energy at the atomic level out the window, it comes from somewhere. |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by youzguyz on 10/26/15 at 13:38:30 Against my own better judgement, I will try to explain how I understand this. Get a SMALL magnet. Try to pick up a paper clip. It works!!! Pick up another.. YAY!!!! Keep going.. eventually, it won't pick up any more. You have exhausted the POTENTIAL energy of that magnet. You can get it back by REMOVING the paper clips.. but, that takes WORK. Yep.. just about as much work as was done when the magnet picked them up. You gained nothing. Another useful analogy is a spring. It has no energy. You put in energy by compressing it.. and it can sit there with all that energy doing nothing, until you release it. Basically, a magnet in reverse.. as the magnet releases it's energy by picking up something, you put it back by removing the object. And that is all I am saying on it. You can do your own research on the internet. |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Dave on 10/26/15 at 17:43:20 Well the only way I know to make a magnet.....is to take steel or iron or something like that.....and subject it to a strong magnetic field. Most of the magnetic fields are made by using coiled wire and electricity to create the magnetic field. I remember seeing a charging device for the magneto in antique engines. You set the horseshoe shaped magnet on the coils, energized it.....then you were supposed to bang on it to help the magnet take a set. So....in the case of those magnets that are manufactured - the energy came from the electricity that set up the magnetic field.....the magnet just held onto and stored some of it, and eventually the magnet does lose the energy and needs to be recharged (but it takes a while). |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by LANCER on 10/27/15 at 08:51:31 Q: Where does the energy come from? A: 1 "In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and [b]the Word was God Himself. 2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being." |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/27/15 at 22:49:16 Sorry, good try though. You are thinking iron magnets and yes they did weaken over time and impacts and heat, etc. All the stuff you remember about lawnmower flywheels is accurate and is still true, for iron magnets. Yes, today's rare earth super magnets DO require a strong origin magnetic field while making them to orient all their electrons so their orbital paths all align. This is a single protracted strong magnetic pulse that is applied at the heat treatment Curie point (heat point where magnetism leaves a permanent magnet when it is being heated up) just at the point where the temperature is dropping down past the Curie point and the atomic matrix structure settles into its permanent orientation and the material becomes fixed. Yes it is a very strong field, but not that much stronger than the resulting batch of magnets are and they keep right on trucking after they take a set. Indeed, as the joint orientation takes place the cooler aligned magnets on the outer layers help orient the hotter ones in the middle of the batch --- you didn't think a large batch of magnets cooled all at the same time, did you? Supermagnets are powered at the atomic level by normal whirling electrons of an alloy of iron, boron and neodymium. The resulting sintered and spin oriented at the Curie point of heat treat powdered metal iron boron neodymium material has the somewhat unique property of taking a better "set" than other materials that have been used in the past. (although this is no longer totally true as other even better rare earth super magnet materials are now coming out of ongoing super conductor research). This magnetic ability is in ALL materials that have whirling electrons. Super cooled super magnets can force field suspend an apple for example, by aligning all its electrons in all its elements temporarily. The ability to have (1) a strong organized field and (2) take a permanent set AND KEEP IT in the temperature range that us human people like to live in is what makes supermagnets unusual. Hey, if we lived on Pluto, most pure gases like hydrogen or helium would be supermagnetic solids too. So, the energy in the current permanent supermagnets can be destroyed by heat or by exposure to strong AC fields over a period of time by disarranging the aligned atoms so their rotational fields are randomized. Think of a laser -- it gets its power by all the light waves waving in the same polarity and frequency and running totally parallel to each other. A supermagnet gets its power the same way, all atoms having electrons whirling together in the same orientation while locked down in a solidified molecular metallic matrix. When solidfied and fixed in this parallel whirl matrix orientation, the normal weak (defined as outside the nucleus) nuclear forces are all running in the same orientation and the projection effects are NOT self-cancelled by its neighbors -- these levels of magnetic forces are there in the natural materials all the time, just not organized. The force level of a supermagnet is always available in the raw materials all the time, it is just normally randomized and tends to self cancel itself naturally at our normal human operating temperatures. Did you know that there is always significant amounts of mechanical stress inside the supermagnet since it is always trying to reorient itself to randomize the electron pathways? The materials that can take a good fix and KEEP it for many years are very rare, iron is not one of these naturally, which is why neodymium and cobalt are needed in the alloy, to give it MORE ABILITY to resist randomization. So, this supermagnetism is really an expression of an organized weak atomic force sorta like a laser is an expression of an organized weak photonic force. Thought stretcher time ....... Imagine what you could do with the STRONG nuclear forces down inside the nucleus if this supermagnetism is just an organized projection of a relatively weak nuclear force? |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/27/15 at 23:54:05 OUCH, I think I pulled a lobe.. |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/27/15 at 23:57:20 Now, I start to blow your mind a little bit. Please feel free to say "that's impossible, gotta be a fake" -- humans have done that in the face of new stuff since the Renaissance and earlier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGq2WSnE7j0 You think this is a fake? Of course you do -- you are a normal human being. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jS22WUpuYw This guy has background and has the tech hooked up to discuss your doubts ..... Steorn (the Orbo guy from Ireland) and others are trying to commercialize this stuff because supermagnets (oriented projected weak nuclear forces) are able to run a self-powered generator system. Put better bearings on it and put it in a vacuum chamber to kill the air resistance and you might have a system that could charge your cell phone. That is where this stuff sits right now -- able to charge a cell phone. Closer to reality is this one ...... it is in commercial roll out right now with some large American companies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shkFDPI6kGE |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/15 at 00:04:50 I really like that stuff. |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by old_rider on 10/28/15 at 22:23:29 The last one actually requires natural gas to be pumped through the cells, it isn't a magnet. I do like the idea of using magnets... I tried the bicycle wheel with just magnets alone back in 2002, but could not keep it running and gave up on it.. No it wasn't precise and I didn't use physics or calculus, and that was part of the problem... besides, I did not have much time each evening to mess with it :) I was also at the time studying hydraulics to use a few water tanks and small water wheels to charge a battery much like the bedini wheel did with magnets. (larger tank above draining thru small drain holes [jetted] under which water paddle wheels are placed, spinning the generators to charge the battery, to run small pumps to replace the water back in the large tank, and hopefully have a small excess of power) But I never got it off paper and into production......ahhhh life, it just gets in the way don't it? :( |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by old_rider on 10/28/15 at 22:35:56 I also thought the idea of an internal generator with a radiometer (a large one) could produce some energy, if it could over come the magnets forces on the generator. (I thought it was amazing at 7 years old, almost like magic! It would have to be a small one (generator), but it could produce at least some energy, even though small. And of course it would have to be powered by the sun, so a solar panel would probably be more efficient, or would it? I don't think anyone has ever scaled one up... I've never seen or heard of it tried, maybe because the math don't work on it.... who knows? |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/29/15 at 04:43:33 No, the last one, the Bloom Box is a big fuel cell that runs ANY form of gaseous fuel and supposedly does it very efficiently. However, it is run your household or run your business level of power -- big power. It is real, right now, and like the E-Cat it is intended for industrial uses first. Power companies are buying some now with the intent of doing some regional generation instead of buying new big plants. Defense installations are buying them to keep from being grid dependent in case of a power grid attack. I guess they didn't stop to think that all that natural gas is pumped around by electric motors, huh? ========================= If you look at the Bedini bike wheel, it uses electronic switching tech to allow the wheel to move along (to get it to roll smoothly past all magnetic hang points) and then it uses the collapsing field effect of the magnets going past the generation coil to make the over unity power. It is an over unity device though -- well proven tech. The energy used by the switching electronics is less than the power generated by the magnets moving past the generation coil -- barely. The excess could charge your cell phone. Once again, not a lot of power available from magnetics -- charge your cell phone type power is about it. By the way, the Orbo by Steorn is now commercially available if you want to pay $1,300 for an endless cell phone charging station. A Bedini based device big enough to actually do something significant would be tremendous in size -- impractical. |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/29/15 at 05:01:03 Yeah, they are making some bigger Bedini generators, but are running in to issues with reliable electronics and large batteries, etc. However you got 5-6 different teams chasing the idea now, trying to upsize it. From the wire size being used, I'd say you got some welding type currents being generated by a big arsed Bedini. http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lUkFIR3FQ8w/maxresdefault.jpg http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2VgQ90-qbObfm8U3LZhHOdMvAPPNCqjavJ-lCE8aO5YKP-Z_o expansion ideas once they get the bugs worked out http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FPchl5o7XME/maxresdefault.jpg |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 10/31/15 at 04:59:32 http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/images/orbo_ocube.jpg Yep, its the Orbo. It is a form of polarized gel "battery" that will last supposedly for 800 years, give or take a century or two. It is a $1,300 toy right now, one that has drawn a wee bit of Apple's interest as it could power a phone or an iPad if it can be shrunk small enough to go inside the unit. Part of that plan is the upcoming non-silicon 7nm Apple chipsets which will require VERY SMALL voltages and very low power. ..... hey, that's great for the chipset, but what about the screen? ...... I'd give this one 4 years to mebbe jell (forgive me Orbo people, I jest couldn't resist the jell reference) |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/15 at 07:16:18 https://youtu.be/1dXIiqyGa5M If you have 5 minutes and are liking tracking these relatively world-changing tech changes that are 3-5 years out from now .... take a lookie see. The base idea isn't new -- Victorian England actually built one based on an upscaled message tube system. http://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F5%2F5c%2FPneumatic_Dispatch_-_Figure_7.png&key=C29g_316h9tIJPlZY1VnHw&w=800&h=303 This one carries its own engine and operates in a partial vacuum inside the tube just to cut down on parasitic air resistance energy waste. Using tunnel boring machines, you could cut what you need out of living bedrock (say under the ocean) and not have to spend the money to make a tube above ground. :D I am reminded of a Mythbuster episode where they used a evacuated 20 foot long tube to push a ping pong ball up past the sound barrier with a blast of nitrogen gas ........ they later shortened the tube to 10 feet and got the same result. Apparently the ping pong ball went past mach 1 in the first 2-3 feet of tube (a partial vacuum means the high speeds are really really possible). |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Serowbot on 11/05/15 at 07:32:17 All I know,.. is I stuck a magnet on my Savage toolbox, and gained 30hp... I can now go up to 135mph in 12 seconds... Honest injun'... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/15 at 07:51:10 No, Sero, you are supposed to put the supermagnet on your oil filter ...... And the hot cam and the "use twice as much gas as before" has nothing to do with it, of course. :) |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/15 at 09:41:58 http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/11/03/new-nasa-emdrive-testing-finds-anomalous-thrust-signals/ New NASA EMDrive Testing Finds ‘Anomalous Thrust Signals’ Posted on November 3, 2015 by Frank Acland • 23 Comments "There’s been a new post by NASA engineer Paul March who has been continuing to do testing on a replication of the EMDrive, an invention of British engineer Roger Shawyer which is claimed to produce reactionless thrust — which is considered by conventional physics to be impossible since it would go against Newton’s Third Law which states that every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. In a post on NASA’s spaceflight forum, March reports that his lastest round of testing has been on a second generation replication in which he has tried to reduce the signals from stray magnetic fields which could contaminate the testing results. He says that there are still some unwanted signals from thermal expansion. He writes: Not being satisfied with just this analytical impulsive vs thermal signal separation approach, we are now working on a new integrated test article subsystem mounting arrangement with a new phase-change thermal management subsystem that should mitigate this thermally induced TP cg baseline shift problem once and for-all. And yet the anomalous thrust signals remain… The full post can be read here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38577.msg1440938#msg1440938 So the mystery remains. Reactionless thrust, if verified, would be a revolutionary discovery which could affect all aspects of transportation, particularly in space, since it would allow for propulsion without the need for on-board rocket fuel." Even at the very low thrust put out by this physically existing simple engine, if it were powered by the exact same puny nuclear power pack that is in EVERY ICBM rocket's control panel it would mean trips to Mars in like 70 days. It takes VERY LITTLE POWER, in other words. And even if it cannot be up-scaled at all, it is enough to get the job done even as it is today. |
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Title: Re: Where does the energy come from? Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/15 at 19:44:47 Now, for something else that you weren't expecting to see ....... The big one is an Dubai Emerates AirBus running at low cruising altitude and speed. Five years ago the little ones would have been called UFOs and the pics would have gotten classified, ASAP. https://youtu.be/_VPvKl6ezyc |
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