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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1445393785 Message started by Gus on 10/20/15 at 19:16:25 |
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Title: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/20/15 at 19:16:25 I don't claim too know a whole lot about what is in oil that makes it slippery. I do know that in the circles I run in Kendall oil has been a mainstay with big twins of the air cooled variety for many years. It puzzled me that it wasn't on the list. I thought maybe it just didn't have that particular acronym of stuff in it so I think that I'd check. . . low and behold it does. Maybe it is not of the sufficient amount. Has it been considered? Just curious how it stacks up. Gus |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by verslagen1 on 10/20/15 at 19:24:14 707F68757E76237E7D7523110 wrote:
post your info and if it's worthy we'll add it. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Kris01 on 10/20/15 at 19:28:20 Is it an "Energy Conserving" oil? You don't want that. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/15 at 20:44:32 You can spend more and feel like that expresses the love we all have for our bikes, but it's like putting premium fuel in a low compression engine Because my baby deserves the best. The stuff that keeps big rigs running is Rotella T 15-40. I've been on four wheeler forums and this one. We have guys with over 100,000 miles. Not saying that no oil is better, but what's the point? A $13.00 gallon goes a long way. For the truly determined, there's always a dash of ZDDP. The valve train is a seriously harsh design and the Rotella has shown that it has the guts to keep the cam and rockers from eating each other. New engine designs are not so brutal inside. This engine is noisy, because of necessary clearances in the valve train. I didn't know the oil thread was locked. I guess the general idea was, we've kicked it around quite a bit. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Dave on 10/21/15 at 02:58:19 Most (if not all) Big Twins have roller bearings on the cams, rollers on the lifters or rockers - they can get away with a lot less ZDDP in the oil than the Savage can. Also since the new bikes are Fuel Injected it is likely that any oil recommended for them will be rated JASO MA-2....which will have the ZDDP lever lowered below what is recommended for the Savage engine. If you can provide the ZDDP content of the oil and it is affordable, and can be found and purchased easily.....then it will likely be posted in the oil thread. I can get Brad Penn High Performance oil at a local engine machine shop (takes an hour round trip). It is good oil, has plenty of ZDDP, and is not priced overly expensive - but it is not readily available at stores so it is not included in the Oil Thread as a recommended oil. (Only their High Performance oil line has the high ZDDP level, and the ZDDP level in their 10W-40 oil for motorcycles has been reduced). The criteria for an oil recommended in that thread is that most folks can go to a local store and buy it. There isn't much reason to recommend an oil that folks can't buy easily. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/21/15 at 04:54:20 Im not sure of the level of ZDDP in Kendall oil but I will do the research. I guess I should have clarified the circles I run in a little clearer. The big twins I was talking about were designed as long ago as 1948. Old Pans and Shovelhead Harleys. The oils that were mainstays for them were Kendall & AeroShell. I know that, with time, all things change; oils, metals, designs down to the roads we ride on. There's also the philosophy of an old neighbor I had as a kid. He had many and varied vintages of vehicles of all kinds; some he made himself. One day I was helping him get one ready for the road and I was standing at the lube bench looking at the many cans and bottles of oil trying to decide which one he wanted. When I asked hesaid" Just bring me the slippery stuff boy. If it doesn't have enough slippery stuff in it, it will burn up." Good advise for a dumb kid! Gus |
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Title: official ZDDP content of Kendall GT-1 Post by Gus on 10/21/15 at 06:01:58 Kendall GT-1 20W-50W has a ZDDP content of .119% by weight. I can buy it at the farm store here in rural South Dakota for 4.89 per quart. Gus |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by verslagen1 on 10/21/15 at 07:40:17 Not sure what .12% by wt is but $5 per qt for synthetic ain't bad. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/21/15 at 08:46:18 Kendall GT-1 20-50W is Dino oil; not synthetic. You can correct me if I'm wrong. In any event; it is the only weight meeting the criteria for ZDDP from what I read in the technical section. Gus |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Ultimafuego on 10/21/15 at 09:13:31 I have a question in regards to this. And I don't really need a crazy argument about it. What is the preferred weight of oil for the s40? I realize a lot of guys are using 15w-40 rotella, but does anyone prefer 10w-40 or 20w-50? Again, just a quick simple question, hopefully getting a simple answer. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Art Webb on 10/21/15 at 09:24:02 Manual says 10w40 I do believe, but in hotter climates some folks prefer 20w50 in the summer |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/21/15 at 09:29:10 I think Art is right. Gus |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Ultimafuego on 10/21/15 at 10:35:23 I figured. I was pretty sure I read the same thing. Just wanted to see what the consensus was. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Kris01 on 10/21/15 at 11:27:03 Since it's an air cooled engine, thicker might be better. It depends on how hot the oil gets. Stop and go traffic is murder on the oil. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Dave on 10/21/15 at 12:42:46 32213637282523212A75440 wrote:
0.12% is equal to 0.0012 x 1,000,000 = 1,200 ppm Anybody know what the "Liquid Titanium" that is supposed to protect against wear is?.....and if this oil is safe for wet clutches? I didn't read anywhere that it was listed for use in motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/21/15 at 13:17:29 Ya, I don't know if it is safe for wet clutched. Person would want to make sure before you went ahead with it. Also the liquid titanium was kind of a question mark with me too. I'll ask around a bit see what I can find out. As far as availability; in these parts we usually get our oil at farm stores like Runnings or Fleet Farm. Stuff is always cheaper. I haven't checked any of the widely available auto parts stores. Gus |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/21/15 at 17:13:30 WARNING If you start to read this entry please read the whole thing. There are two different formulations of the Kendall GT-1 oil. Don't use the wrong one. OK here is what I found on the compatibility of Kendall GT-1 High Performance oil ( not to be confused with Kendall GT-1 Motorcycle oil). This quote is from this web site: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ A member with the handle beanoil claims to have done the foot work. "I've sent an email to ConocoPhillips asking them which Kendall GT-1 20W50 oil they recommend using in a Gold Wing. Will post what they say. Here is the response from Kendall R&D: "Either product will provide the protection that your motorcycle requires. I would recommend whichever is easier to find locally. The Kendall GT-1 Motorcycle 20W-50 meets the API SN engine protection and JASO MA1 friction requirements. Kendall GT-1 High Performance 20W-50 has higher levels of ZddP and contains our Liquid Titanium(R) Protection additive. It also meets API SN and has JASO friction MA." Now the thing to notice here is the difference in the name of the two oils referred too. Kendall GT-1 motorcycle oil-----Bad for the LS650 Kendall GT-1 High Performance oil----Good for the LS650 So it sounds like the Kendall GT-1 HP has the acceptable amount of ZDDP and is OK for a wet clutch. As an aside; I found out that Conoco/Philips bought out Kendall 10 years ago or so. Do with it what you will. I, however, will use Kendall GT-1 HP in my scooter and never look back. It is easy for me to get, inexpensive and past personal reliability will let me breath easy knowing my scooter is splashing around in the good stuff. ;) |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Oldfeller on 10/23/15 at 16:50:35 Congratulations, Gus You have re-ignited the 2015 annual fall episode of the perennial oil war. We see your name brand is Kendal and you mention "big air-cooled twins" and you simo-posted data about 20-50 weight oil so the temptation before us is to think Harley weight oil instead of Savage weight oil. But, to offer up a proper sacrifice on the altar of the OIL WARS you have to NAME it completely and fully and give us its weight designation. An actual buy me link to your reference is always nice too. I think you have tried to do this by saying the Kendals are different, but then the question remains which weight are you going to bat for? Need to get the 20w-50 vs the 10w-40 all settled first. Our Savage was built in Japan (not Milwaukee) and it is spec'd to use a 10w40 oil. Then you can tell us why you think it is "better". We do this every year when it starts to get cold and the boys get all bored. If it sounds like a contender, Verslagen has been known to buy a case and get out his recording thermocouple device and hook it up for a head to head test. Last 20w-50 he tested got hotter both in the head and in the sump because it was thicker and converted more energy to heat than the 5w40 contestant did. It also moved heat more slowly than the 5w40 contender it was up against. (that one was a war of full synthetics, not to be confused with any of the dino products wars either) Bob is the Oil Guy gets consulted for analysis data and we generally kick through what makes a good Savage oil again, which gives the newbies some ongoing education and some entertainment. So, shoot us a link to what your contestant really is going to be and I will be an impartial referee type person. Or you can get Justin to do it, or Dave if you prefer, and then I can go play too. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/23/15 at 17:51:34 44676F6D6E67676E790B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/15 at 09:20:37 Define inexpensive. I'm cheap. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/15 at 09:21:55 Define inexpensive. I'm cheap. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/24/15 at 09:59:59 In my area (rural Midwest) ; I can buy it at the farm store for 3.89 per quart. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Drestakil on 10/24/15 at 10:22:38 Sounds like it's fine as long as the clutch doesn't slip and you're not riding when it's below 14F. I don't ride much when it gets below 30. Let us know if the clutch acts up. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/24/15 at 12:20:38 Conoco/Philip R&D says it is compatible with wet clutch operation. And ya, I'm a winter rider too but to a point. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/24/15 at 12:30:13 Conoco/Philip R&D says it is compatible with wet clutch operation. And ya, I'm a winter rider too but to a point. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/15 at 22:03:34 Rotella T is cheaper,, around here. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/15 at 07:36:43 Not sure on the line of questioning here so I'll just give it a roll here and see if I cover it. The oil is Kendall 20/50W GT-1 High Performance. The big twin I was referring to are in fact Harley's - specifically pre evolution. I know nothing of the ones built after the Shovelhead. Why we don't use "Harley recommended" oils in the Savage. First, the weight is wrong. Yes, I know you can do it, but a 20w50 weight oil is too thick for the Savage, winter or summer. Stick with the 40 weight oil the Savage was designed for and you will get what you should have for piston drag and performance losses due to oil factors. In house testing with 20w50 weight oils showed the head and the sump run hotter with 20w50 simply because it causes friction loss due to the higher viscosity and the thicker oil is slower to release heat to the environment when pooled down in the sump. In Verslagen's testing, 20w50 oils ran the head and the sump about 10 degrees hotter than the 40 weight oil did, just due to the increased viscosity. Also, please realize that large Harley engines use a separate oil slump for their engines and any specialty formulated Harley type oils can contain moly and/or titanium additives at levels that would be a "friction modifier" contaminate in a wet clutch bike like a Savage. Plus, all Harleys use roller tappets in their valve train, which do not even have the sort of long dragging friction surface that we Savagers have to deal with. A Harley oil simply misses the mark in a Savage engine. What is "potentially wrong" with the Kendal oils bottled lately Kendal is just a brand name now-a-days and the oil in the jug itself seems to change formulation without any real notice. VOA evidence of oils running the gamut from simple car oils to real performance oils is found in BITOG, with the name on the oil jug remaining the same over the years. Older seems to be better, but here is an example of a "lighter" VOA. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3314209/Kendall_GT-1_20w-50 http://s28.postimg.org/yvdq8abv1/Untitled.png Seriously, this one seems to have been a standard car oil by its VOA. Tons of calcium, not much zinc and phosphorus (car levels). Does Kendal do a better job with its real racing oils? Perhaps. But since the RACING OIL bottling changes frequently and it isn't widely available it becomes a very moot point. Also remember that real racing oils do not have detergent additive packages in them, because real racing oil is changed after every single race and detergent packages rob hp from a pure performance racing engine and are left out of all real racing oils on purpose. Supply of the Kendal oil at local outlets is somewhat irregular of late as the retail sales minded people bottling it only bring out the Kendal brand name when they have a particular reason to do so. For example, bulk amounts of Kendal oil bought on $3-$4 close-out pricing seems to be the reason the oil gets tested at BITOG of late. So, Conoco/Philips does bring out new oils each season, generally formulated to current car standards and some of them get bottled as Kendal, with varying results. The fact Kendal has at least two grades of Kendal 20w50 running under the same name and weight should signal a "beware when buying". Kendal is an old school CAR OIL brand name, so it has buyers who want it to do what it used to do back in the day, but they may find they have actually bought a modern SL to SN car oil in an old school Kendal named bottle once they have it tested. What was not clear until reading this http://www.racereadyproducts.com/oil--lubricants/kendall-gt-1-motor-oil/ was that even the the very best Kendal racing oils are not full synthetics, but are only a dino/synthetic blend. This means they do not have the full heat resistance of say a Rotella T6. Kendal is very careful NOT to mention that it is a dino/syn blend on the bottle, but allows your imagination to fill in all those blanks. They are very careful NOT to mention that the 40 weight Kendal oil is a Car/Passenger Truck Oil ONLY, either. It is not even an HDEO oil. What? Where did you see that little nugget? Race Ready also brings out the point that NO KENDAL 40W OIL has the amount of zinc in it that we need in a Savage engine, Kendal reserves the "zinc fortification" only for the 20w50 racing class semi-synthetic blend. Paying "suggested retail" at $11.00 a quart for Kendal is very expensive as you can buy Rotella T6 full synthetic for half that price at your local Walmart. Buying Kendal on sale at $5.00 a quart means you are paying Rotella full synthetic T6 cost for a Kendal synthetic/dino blend. And as JOG reminds us, a quart of Rotella triple protection dino oil costs less than $4.00 a quart normally at your local Walmart. (buy it by the gallon, please -- its cheaper) http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81ToqzYL9yL._SL1500_.jpg Since Kendal apparently gets reformulated frequently, you need to check carefully what you are getting before you go buy some. ============================ So, in conclusion, Kendal doesn't go on the Savage recommended list because it is too expensive and it gets very mixed VOA reviews over time (has different formulations on sale at the same time) and for the ongoing heavy use of a friction modifier (liquid titanium). |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Dave on 10/26/15 at 08:37:46 Back in the days before the internet forums, and before the EPA got involved in messing around with our oils....I used either Kendall or Pennzoil exclusively in my 4 stroke engines. Word on the street was that those 2 oils were made from Pennsylvania Crude oil....and that the oil was high in paraffin content which made an excellent motor oil. This was before there were any synthetic oils were commonly available. Our lube was "dino", and our fuel was "leaded"! I have bought expensive synthetic oils and used them with good results - but honestly I have never worn out an engine using Dino oil that is changed regularly. However - once I heard about the lower levels of ZDDP being hard on older flat tappet engines - I started to be careful about oil I used in my old equipment. At first I was buying Brad Penn High Performance Oils at about $ 8.00 a quart to use in my older cars - the modern cars got modern oil. When I first came to this Board I was skeptical about the Rotella T 15W-40 oil - as the reports from other forums claimed it to be a good oil - but never went into detail about why. Just folks saying "so and so" uses it in their race bikes and a lot of second hand accounts. With the information I found on this forum I understand what the ZDDP does and why it is important to use the right oil in the Savage. I also have learned that you don't have to spend $ 10 a quart for a synthetic oil - you can protect your Savage with Rotella T and only spend $ 12 a gallon if you wait for a SALE! |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/15 at 10:58:46 the stuff in blue is good enough to use plus the last item in the red section http://malcolm.iri5.net/oil%20study/oil%20comparison%20chart%2020140209.png OK, only the stuff in blue and the last item in the red is good enough at a minimum (un-augmented) for a Savage engine. All the rest require bumping. An item of concern is Rotella Triple Protection (dino) --- it may have slightly less zinc and phosphorous than it used to. Used to be a solid 1,200 ppm, now may be down to a thousand. This analysis is from the older flat tappet Jeep people, who are faced with our same valve train issues as we are. Read the whole thing for good background and a right mental picture. http://www.cherokeeforum.com/f2/rotella-worlds-first-ever-combined-hair-oil-foot-ointment-salad-dressing-188168/ He's got a sense of humor (which makes it pleasant enough to read) and so far all I have read is technically spot on. He also tests Walmart Supertec dino HDEO oil as last item in the red approved dino oil listing, and he rates it as better than Rotella Triple Protection for Zinc and Phosphorus content. This was unexpected, as Rot T3 is weaker than it used to be, but this is the second time I have seen this information from independent sources. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Dave on 10/26/15 at 11:13:43 Well....Jeep guys don't care about "Friction Modifiers" - do we know which oils in the chart have them? And.....perhaps we need to consult Shell or Bob is the Oil Guy to see if Rotella T has been changed - or if the test results are out of wack a bit. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Oldfeller on 10/26/15 at 11:33:37 Friction modifiers are sneaky things -- Rotella T6 has moly oil in it now but the amount is very low. As ZDDP goes down other additives that were commonly known as friction modifiers are creeping in to all the synthetics. I am testing for it now by switching back to Rot dino as my Rot syn was giving me very minor warm up clutch slippage. I checked Bob's for current VOA data -- issue is that nobody has tested any Rot dino since 2008 so any recent change becomes as a surprise. I did go look at the Shell Tech pages and sure enough, they list Rot dino as 1,100 ppm zinc ..... aw shite, there goes another good oil getting sorta kinda wimpy on us. http://www.pqiamerica.com/May%202013/rotella.htm This is the most modern independent VOA for Rotella Triple Protection I have found. Next dino jug I try will be Walmart Supertech HDEO 15w40 -- the same stuff I used to always recommend as a clean up oil for abused bike engines since you could actually afford to change it monthly until the caked up gunk stopped coming out of your engine and you could see your oil level again in the little crudded up glass windows. The way of things is wimpier and less less zinc and phosphorus -- Rotella Triple protection is now down to 1,100 ppm zinc. I suspect that all of the HDEOs are dancing to a CJ-x spec change so the rest may drop soon as well. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Dave on 10/26/15 at 11:41:09 Well....seems like maybe we need to update the ZDDP blend table in the Technical Section to reflect the new ZDDP content. It used to be that the Rotella T could be used without adding anything....now I am not so sure. I had settled on 1,200ppm being a safe lower limit - and 1,400 ppm being the upper limit. And....I wonder how we know what version of the oil is on the shelf (at home or at the store)? |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Gus on 10/26/15 at 15:54:57 IMHO this topic has been given way more wind than it deserves. |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Kris01 on 10/26/15 at 15:59:08 Don't they date code the bottles on the bottom or something? |
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Title: Re: OK so the thread on oil is locked . . . Post by Oldfeller on 10/29/15 at 13:31:38 Gus, It's not about the question that you asked, it's about the oils. Periodically somebody brings the topic up and we are reminded to go look at the oils again. This time we got a surprise and one of our favorite oils had changed formulations a little bit, but still it means we have to pay attention to it. Dave mentioned the bump tables needed to be updated. This is true, but until it happens I think we will find that the existing bump table recommendations for Rotella T (dino) Triple Protection are still good but instead of putting you at the top part of the scale the lower starting point will put you a little notch below max but still within the range of "good". |
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