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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of ISIS /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1444583587 Message started by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 10:13:07 |
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Title: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of ISIS Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 10:13:07 I know it's a long read, and I don't expect to "convert" anybody to moderate views,; this is simply to inform you that Muslims here in Europe (and in canada, where the below blog originates) are extremely alarmed by ISIS and are concerned that Egypt and saudi Arabia are doing/saying nothing about the whole matter. http://muslimmatters.org/?s=Khawarij+Ideology%2C+ISIS+Savagery%3A+Part+I As ISIS continues its murder and violence across the provinces it controls and seeks to control, and as it continues to plague the conscience of the great majority of Muslims around the world, what's worth recalling is that we've seen this before in history with the sect called the Khawarij (anglicized to Kharijites). So before tackling ISIS, let's look at their forerunners; the Kharajites, to whom their pedigree can be traced. The hadith canons relate that shortly after the battle of Hunayn while the Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him) was distributing charity to a few people whose hearts needed to be reconciled, there came a man with a thick beard, prominent cheek bones, deep sunken eyes, protruding forehead and shaven head. He exclaimed: Fear Allah, O Muhammad! The Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him) responded: 'Who will obey Allah if I were to disobey him? Am I not [sent as the] most trustworthy person on earth; and yet you trust me not?' The man then turned back, whereupon one of those present asked for permission to kill him. But the Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him) said: 'Verily, from the progeny (di'di) of this [man] shall come a people who will recite the Qur'an but it won't pass beyond their throats. They will slay the followers of Islam and would spare the people of idolatry. They will pierce through the religion just like an arrow which goes clean through a prey.[1] Another hadith records that this man's name was Dhu'l-Khuwaysirah, from the tribe of Tamim, about whom the Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him) alerted: 'Leave him; he has comrades whose prayer and fasting will make your prayer and fasting seem insignificant. They recite the Qur'an but it doesn't go beyond their throats. They shall pass through the religion as an arrow that pierces clean through its prey such that, on inspecting the head; then the shaft; then the fletching; then the nock, would see no traces of blood or viscera on it whatsoever.'[2] Ibn al-Jawzi said: 'The first of the Khawarij, and the most wretched of them, was Dhu'l-Khuwaysirah … His problem was that he was too puffed up with his own opinion. Had he been granted grace, he would have realized that no opinion was above that of Allah's Messenger [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him). The followers of this man were those who fought against 'Ali b. Abi Talib, may Allah ennoble his face.'[3] A few decades after this post-Hunayn happening, and as had been prophesied, Dhu'l-Khuwaysirah's ideological comrades and offspring took on the shape of the very first sect (firqah) to deviate from the main body of the Muslims: the Khawarij (culled from the Arabic word kharaja – “to go out” or “to leave” the main body of Muslims). Indeed, their very name was mentioned by the Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him) himself, who said: al-khawarij hum kilab al-nar – “The Khawarij are the dogs of Hellfire!'[4] The emergence of the Khawarij as a sect occurred during the caliphate (khilafah) of 'Ali, in the immediate aftermath of a civil war and its arbitration at Siffin. Ibn al-Jawzi tells us: ''Ali returned from Siffin and entered Kufah: the Khawarij did not follow. Instead, they settled in Harura. There were 12,000 of them, and they were declaring: la hukma illa li'Llah – “There is no judgement, except Allah's.” This is how they initially started.'[5] Imam Muslim narrates from 'Ubayd Allah b. Abi Rafi', a freed salve of the Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him), that the Khawarij came out against 'Ali, and declared: 'There is no judgement, except Allah's.' So 'Ali replied: 'A word of truth, intended for something false (kalimatu haqq urida biha batil).'[6] Imam al-Nawawi explains: 'Meaning, the basis of their statement was true. Allah says: The judgement is for none but Allah. [12:40] What they intended by it, however, was to reject 'Ali's [acceptance of] arbitration, may Allah be pleased with him.'[7] As with Dhu'l-Khuwaysirah who, blinded by his warped piety and self-righteousness, thought he had a keener sense of justice than the Prophet [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him), the Khawarij were also possessed of holier-than-thou pretensions and smug convictions. It is this puritanical, embittered self-righteousness – devoid of any true glimmer of knowledge or spiritual wisdom – that is the hallmark of the Khawarij and their ideological cousins who drink from the same murky theological waters today. Of course, along with such fanatical zeal, their other great infamy was takfir – declaring other Muslims to be disbelievers, and spilling their blood because of it. II The historians al-Tabari and Ibn Kathir chronicle alarmingly precise accounts of their intimidation, violence and terror. Under the events of 37H/657CE they detail how the Khawarij began terrorizing the countryside around Nahrawan, Iraq, subjecting those whom they caught to an imtihan or “inquisition”. If the answers failed to satisfy their zeal for purity, or agree with their understanding of things, then the punishment was death. Things came to a head when they chose 'Abd Allah, son of an early companion, Khabbab b al-Aratt, as their victim. A number of the Khawarij rode into his village for supplies and thought to make an example of him. They fired their loaded questions at him. They first asked him about the caliphates of Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman. 'Abd Allah extolled them all and praised their successive caliphates. So far, so good. They then asked him about 'Ali, and his state before and after the arbitration or tahkim. 'He has far greater knowledge about Allah than you do,' replied 'Abd Allah, 'and has much more piety in terms of his religion and possesses greater insight.' With that, his fate was sealed. They bound and dragged him and his pregnant wife to an orchard laden with date palms, next to a river. As they were proceeding to kill him, a date fell to the ground, so one of the Khawarij picked it up and put it in his mouth. 'Do you do that without the owner's permission and without paying for it?' said one of his Kharajite comrades. He spat it out instantly. Another Khariji, wielding his sword in threatening circles, accidentally killed a cow that had been wandering behind him. His comrades insisted he should go and find the owner and pay him the full price of the animal. They waited whilst he did so. Thus, having acted most righteously in the matter of the date and the cow, they slit 'Abd Allah's throat and then disemboweled his wife. Date spat out, cow paid for, husband, wife and unborn child butchered; and with the clearest of consciences, they purchased their supplies and went on their way.[8] Theologians have differed as to the precise meaning of the Prophet's words [ch7779]allall[ch257]hu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of All[ch257]h be upon him): 'They will pierce through the religion (yamruquna min al-din) as an arrow which goes clean through a prey.' The idea of maraqa – an an arrow 'piercing' or going 'clean through' its prey with such force and velocity that it exits its prey without any trace of blood or flesh sticking to its tip or shaft, describes emphatically how the Khawarij immerse themselves in religion, but exit straight through it. The question, however, is do they exit the fold of orthodoxy (and become heterodox, deviant Muslims), or do they leave the actual fold of Islam? A minority of scholars went with the latter view; most went with the former.[9] The majority view takes its cue from 'Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, who was asked: Are the Khawarij mushrikun? He said: 'They flee from shirk.' Are they munafiqun? He said: 'The hypocrites remember Allah only a little.' Then what are they? He said: 'They are our brothers who transgressed against us (ikhwanuna baghaw 'alayna), so we fought them for their transgression.'[10] NOTES: 1. Muslim, no.750. 2. Ibn Majah, no.176. Al-Albani graded it as sahih in Sahih al-Jami' al-Saghir (Beirut: al-Maktab al-Islami, 1987), no.3347. 3. Cited in Ibn al-Jawzi, Talbis Iblis (Beirut: Dar al-Qalam, 1982), 89-90. 4. Dabiq (issue #9: Sha'ban, 1436), 52; the official online magazine of ISIS. The quote starts 13 minutes, 12 seconds into the audio. 5. Abu Dawud, no.2504. Its chain is sahih, as per al-Nawawi, Riyadh al-Salihin (Riyadh: Dar Ibn al-Jawzi, 2000), no.1357, but with the wording: ' … with your wealth, lives and tongues.' 6. Al-Raghib al-Asbahani, Mufradat Alfaz al-Qur'an (Beirut: Dar al-Qalam, 2002), 208; under the entry, j-h-d. 7. For the merits and shari'ah status of the inner jihad against the unruly ego, refer to my article: The Greater Jihad. 8. Ibn Hajr al-Haytami citing al-Zarkashi, Tuhfat al-Muhtaj bi Sharh al-Minhaj (Beirut: Dar Sadir, 1972), 9:211. 9. Bukhari, no.3024; Muslim, no.172.. 10. Ahmad, Musnad, no.695. Its chain was graded sahih by Ahmad Shakir, al-Musnad al-imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Egypt: Dar al-Ma'arif, 1954), 2:84-5, despite the presence of two questionable narrators in the chain: Faysal b. Sulayman and Iyas b. 'Amr. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 10:13:40 Khawarij Ideology, ISIS Savagery: Part II Sh. Abu Aaliyah Surkheel October 8, 2015 5 Comments Sh Abu Aaliyah Surkheel charted the rise of Islam's first heterodox sect, the Khawarij, in the first segment of this series. The Khawarij are those who were described by the Prophet [ch65018] as being: 'the worst of mankind and beasts'1 and 'dogs of Hellfire.'2 We saw how their defining traits were: (i) rebellion (khuruj) against legitimate state rule; (ii) declaring Muslims to be apostates (takfir) for sins or opinions that do not warrant apostasy and; (iii) shedding peoples' blood and causing chaos and terror throughout the land (fasad fi'l-ard). Such have tended to be this heinous group's timeless traits. Whatever other motives or pathology are at work in the Khariji mind, the underlying cause of their deviation was clearly stated by Ibn 'Abbas when he said to them, in his encounter with them: 'I come to you from the Emigrants (muhajirun) and the Helpers (ansar) and the son-in-law of Allah's Messenger [ch65018]. To them the Qur'an was revealed. They are more learned about its meanings than you are; and there is not a single one of them among you.'3 In other words, Ibn 'Abbas is insisting that he has come from a people educated and nurtured by the Prophet [ch65018] himself; a people whose knowledge of the meanings, context and intent of the Quranic teachings is second to none. It's as if he was saying: 'Pray tell, with what authority do you presume to know better than the sahabah – the actual people of knowledge, understanding and excellence?' Click to get started now! With that short recap, let's now turn our focus to ISIS. At the outset, it is important to note that no single writing of this size can hit every relevant nail on the head in this affair. There are far too many questions and concerns to tackle for that to realistically happen. Nor is this piece meant to be academically exhaustive or politically thorough. Instead, the purpose is to compare the claims and modus operandi of ISIS with that of Islam's well-established juristic norms, and to show how they are the most recent face of Kharijite misguidance, barbarity, indiscriminate killings and takfirism. I'd also like to stress here that not all those waging jihad in Syria are the ISIS/al-Qaeda types. Many groups and individuals are; but not all. Likewise, not all who are fighting under, or migrating to, the ISIS banner deserve the same ruling or description. While it is true that many (or even most) ISIS-affiliates are no more than thugs, deviants and followers of false desires; others are sincere, but betaken with idealism and naivety; or are ensnared by claims of an alleged caliphate (khilafah) and misled into believing the grass is greener on the other side. Yet since ISIS has a clear-cut command structure, and its ideology and decrees come from top down, there is sufficient enough shari'ah justification to be able to describe the group in collective, generic terms – even if not every individual affiliated with the group fits the description. This shall be the stance I take when writing this blog. So to continue on from Section III of the first part of the blog, let's start with a declaration from the leader of ISIS: IV On May 14th, 2015 Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the alleged khalifah of all Muslims, said in a 34 minute audio address: 'O Muslims, Islam was never for a day the religion of peace. Islam is the religion of war. Your Prophet [ch65018] was dispatched with the sword as a mercy to the creation.'4 The issue of jihad and Islam's attitude to war is as good a place as any to start our examination of ISIS. Without a doubt, jihad in the sense of qital (“fighting”, “military war”) is enjoined on the faithful at numerous places in the Qur'an and is seen as a highly meritorious form of duty and sacrifice in Islam. Al-Raghib wrote about the schematics of jihad in these terms: 'Jihad is of three types: jihad against the apparent enemy; against the devil; and against the ego (nafs). All three types are included in Allah's words, exalted is He: And wage jihad in Allah's path with all the striving that is due to Him. [22:78] And wage jihad with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah. [9:41] … Jihad is to be waged with the hand and the tongue, as he [the Prophet] [ch65018] said: “Wage jihad against the unbelievers with your hands and your tongues.”5'6 Undeniably, then, military or armed jihad is well-attested to in the revealed texts.7 Yet to equate this one virtuous act of the faith with the totality of Islam is nothing short of being perverse or pathological. The self-proclaimed Caliph and so-called caretaker of the ummah has nothing to say about prayer, fasting or pilgrimage. No significant exhortation to piety or to purifying the heart. No word about cultivating good morals and ethics, or kindness to parents, fulfilling contracts or guarding the tongue. There's just a call to fighting, violence and shedding blood. The slick ISIS media output is filled with images of blood and gore; of victims in the process of being executed, burnt or beheaded; and children playing amidst decapitated heads. ISIS wants us to believe this is the real Islam; that this is the spirit of a true Muslim: and that anyone who recoils from such imagery is but a pale reflection of the real deal. In the ISIS reading of Islam, this is how the Prophet [ch65018] was. This is what al-Baghdadi is hell bent on making us believe. In fact, this is what so many in the world have come to believe; and it utterly repulses them. So what was the Prophet's attitude [ch65018] to war? And how does the shari'ah, the Sacred Law of Islam, countenance war? In classical Islam, warfare is regulated by an all-important shari'ah dictum that states about jihad: wujubuhu wujubu'l-wasa'il la al-maqasid – 'Its necessity is the necessity of means, not of ends.'8 Indeed, Islam's overall take on war is best seen in the following declaration of our Prophet Muhammad [ch65018]: 'Do not wish to meet your enemy, but ask Allah for safety. If you do meet them, be firm and know that Paradise lies beneath the shades of swords.'9 That is to say, pursue the path of peace and reconciliation; if such a path be denied by belligerence or hostile intent, then be prepared to act differently. The following hadith might also be used as a support: 'After me there will be conflicts and affairs. If you are able, resolve them peacefully.'10 Also revealing are these words of the Prophet [ch65018]: 'The most detested of names to Allah are War (harb) and Bitterness (murrah).'11 All this is a far cry from the ISIS reinvention of the Muslim personality and from their irreverent portrayal of the Prophet [ch65018]. If anything, their portrayal is more a betrayal. Jihad of the military kind, as we have seen, is not a goal in itself; it's a means to a goal: the free and unhindered invitation to Islam and the summons to worship Allah alone. Let's not forget this martial jihad has rules and codes of conduct too. Among them is that the leader carefully evaluate the potential benefits and harms of armed struggle; ensure civilians and non-combatants are not killed or wilfully attacked; abide by the other sanctities upheld in Islam; and keep in mind receptivity to the call (da'wah) to Islam. ISIS, however, seems not to give much thought about receptivity to Islam, nor about sanctity of life – including Muslim life. Despite their claims to uphold the shari'ah, the list of their atrocities and violations reads like an Argos catalogue. These involve: the indiscriminate killing of Muslims; kidnapping and killing of non-Muslims who have entered Muslims countries as aid workers, journalists or under a covenant of security; torturing and killing prisoners as well as mutilating their bodies; exacting revenge and retribution upon the public if they disagrees with ISIS; illegally seizing the wealth and property of Muslims; and, of course, their rampant takfir of a large numbers of Muslims – scholars and mujahids included. It seems the only difference between ISIS and the Khawarij of earlier times is in the sheer scale of ISIS's takfir, bloodshed and savagery. In this sense, ISIS are not Khawarij, they are ubër-Khawarij! And nor should one be taken in by their apparent Islamic rhetoric. For the Prophet [ch65018] warned about the Khawarij thugs that: 'There shall appear in my ummah schisms and divisions, and a people who will beautify their speech, but their actions will be evil. They shall recite the Qur'an, but it will not pass beyond their throats …'12 Also: 'They shall recite the Qur'an thinking it is for them, but it is against them.'13 And that: 'They would call to the Book of Allah, but would not be from it at all.'14 V In the same audio speech, al-Baghdadi goes to great lengths to rally every able-bodied believer to his cause: 'Muslims! Do not think the war that we are waging is the Islamic State's war alone. Rather it's the Muslims' war altogether. It's the war of every Muslim in every place, and the Islamic State is merely the spearhead in this war. It is but the war of the people of faith against the people of disbelief, so march forth to your war O Muslims.'15 This brings us to another crucial aspect about jihad in Islam: who may be fought? Are Muslims required to wage jihad against disbelievers due to their disbelief (kufr)? Imam Ibn Taymiyyah takes up the issue, stating: 'The disbelievers, they are only to be fought on condition of them waging war first – as is the view of the majority of scholars; and as is proven by the Book and the Sunnah.'16 Which is to say, Islam permits fighting disbelievers, not because of their disbelief, but only if they initiate war against Muslim societies, or manifest belligerence towards them. The Qur'an says: Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not transgress the limits. [2:190] Ibn al-Qayyim, another medieval maestro of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote: 'Fighting is only a duty in response to being fought against, not in response to disbelief. Which is why women, children, the elderly and infirm, the blind, or monks who stay out of the fighting are not fought. Instead, we only fight those who wage war against us.'17 Ibn al-Qayyim also stated about the Prophet [ch65018]: 'Never did he force the religion upon anyone, and he only fought those who waged war against him and fought him. As for those who entered into a peace treaty with him, or concluded a truce, he never fought them, nor ever coerced them to enter his religion, abiding by his Lord's order: There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has become distinct from error. [2:256] … It will be clear to whoever ponders the life of the Prophet [ch65018], that he never coerced anyone to enter his religion and that he only fought those who fought against him first. As for those who ratified a peace treaty with him, he never fought them, provided they kept to their covenant and did not violate its terms.'18 Again, the issue of jihad isn't quite as ISIS makes it out to be: 'It is but the war of the people of faith against the people of disbelief.' Rather, as per the above, and as most of the qualified jurists and recognised fatwa bodies of our time hold – and their word in shari'ah affairs is authoritative and represents orthodoxy – that a state of war shall not exist between Muslims and others except if hostility against a Muslim land is initiated or barriers to da'wah erected.19 |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 10:16:25 As for when the Muslim army is in the thick of a religiously-sanctioned war, then this is where the following verses of the Qur'an (and their like) come into play: Slay them wherever you find them; drive them out of the places from which they drove you. [2:190-91] Also: Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them [captive] and besiege them, and lie in ambush for them everywhere. [9:5] And then, of course, there is this: But if they incline towards peace, incline to it too. [8:61] Lastly, let's touch upon the following: the believer's love of martyrdom. In one hadith, we see the Prophet [ch65018] relish the following: 'By Him in whose hand is my life. I would love to be killed in Allah's way and then be brought back to life; then be killed and be brought back to life; then be killed and be brought back to life; then be killed.'20 The Prophet [ch65018] cherished martyrdom, not because of the love of blood and gore; nor for the glory of war itself; nor for the clanging of steel or the thrill of the fight. He loved it because of what it manifested of the highest service and the ultimate sacrifice for God. To surrender to Allah one's actual life, for a cause Allah loves and honours, is the greatest possible expression of loving Allah. It's no wonder, then, that the Prophet [ch65018] said: 'Whosoever dies without partaking in a military expedition, or even desiring to do so, dies upon a branch of hypocrisy.'21 Believers, though, whilst they long to meet a martyr's death, strive to live a saintly life. For how can one truly desire to die for God, if one doesn't sincerely try to live for God? VI ISIS has no qualms in shamelessly flaunting its cruelty and deviancy. Although the so-called khalifah hides away from the public's gaze, the khariji ideology and attitudes he propagates and presides over are on display for all to see. But ideology isn't always the core appeal. Some are drawn to ISIS, not because of its ruthless ideology, but because for them it represents a rallying force against taghut rulers, establishments that have failed them, and western foreign policies. The claim to have reestablished the khilafahis the ultimate rallying force to galvanise the disaffected and disempowered. But has ISIS really reestablished the Caliphate? Is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi truly the khalifah, the amir al-mu'minin, of all Muslims? Is there an Islamic duty upon each of us to give him the oath of allegiance, or bay'ah? The short answer to all these questions is: Of course not! And here are a few reasons why: 1. The khalifah must be appointed by consultation (shura) of the ummah's movers and shakers: its senior scholars, political leaders, wealthy ones, and any others who exert influence on large factions of the ummah and whose agreement is vital to bring about a unified stance. Without their approval, any claims of a khilafah is both unachievable and illegitimate. If anything, it will have the exact opposite effect. It will be the cause for schisms, divisions and civil unrest to erupt. 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, said: 'Whoever gives the oath of allegiance to a man, without consulting the Muslims, is not to be sworn allegiance to, nor is the one whom he swore allegiance to, for fear they both may be killed.'22 From this angle alone, there simply is no shari'ah legality to al-Baghdadi's claim to be khalifah. For consultation with a few unknowns and misfits doesn't count as shura in such a key public affair. 2. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah wrote: 'The Prophet [ch65018] ordered us to obey leaders who were both present and well-known (al-a'immah al-mawjudin al-ma'lumin); those who wield executive political authority and have the capability to address the political needs of the people. He did not [order us with] obedience to leaders who are absent or unknown; or to those who lack executive authority and have no real governing power over anything.'23 So these are a few more reasons which make al-Baghdadi's claim of being caliph bogus. He's an unknown (as are the many former high-ranking Ba'athists he's chosen to fill top organisational positions in ISIS). Moreover, his political clout is confined; it doesn't extend globally, nor reach into Muslim majority countries. 3. Ibn Hajr al-'Asqalani wrote of one of the pragmatic rulings that have shaped Sunni political theory and its rules of governance (ahkam al-sultaniyyah): 'The scholars have united upon the obligation to obey the ruler who gains ascendency by force … For in it lies preservation of blood and public order.'24 The rationale here is quite simple: al-bay'ah khayrun min al-furqah – 'Oath of allegiance is better than dissension.'25 Now it has been argued that since al-Baghdadi and ISIS have conquered territory and gained sovereignty by force, this somehow makes him khalifah. This is nonsense; as shown by the previous point. At best, ISIS is an emirate and al-Baghdadi is its amir, or leader. At worst, it temporarily controls conquered territories in an ongoing war zone, and al-Baghdadi a calculated fitnah-maker falsely claiming the title of Caliph; splitting the ranks of those who are fighting Syria's tyrant; and turning his guns on mujahidun and anyone else who disagrees with his caliphal claim. Either way, ISIS most certainly isn't a khilafah by any stretch of the imagination. Those that aid and abet ISIS, only aid and abet murder, mayhem and misguidance. Then there's the matter of whether multiple rulers (ta'addud al-a'immah) are lawful or not in Islam, or are Muslims always required to be politically unified under one single ruler or caliph? Here's an outline of the issue: 4. After citing the hadith, 'Whoever comes to you whilst your affairs are unified under a single person, seeking to undermine your unity or divide your ranks, execute him,'26al-Qurtubi remarked: 'This is the strongest evidence prohibiting the establishment of two leaders [simaltaneously]. For this will lead to hypocrisy, dissension, schisms, civil strife and the removal of blessings. But if the lands are far apart and independent, like Anadulsia and Khurasan, it becomes permissible.'27 5. First stating the ideal, then supplying this dispensation on the topic, Ibn Taymiyyah wrote: 'The Sunnah is for the Muslims to have a single ruler (imam), with others being his deputies. But if it happened that the ummah left this, due to sin from some and inability from others, so that it had multiple rulers, it would them be incumbent upon each ruler to establish the prescribed punishments and preserve peoples' rights.'28 6. Adapting to the changing realities and seismic political shifts of the eighteenth and nineteenth century Muslim world, the jurist and murajjih, imam al-Shawkani, stated: 'However, as for after Islam became widespread and had reached many far away lands, then as is known, there arose in each province or territory a state with its own leader or ruler. This happened in all regions. The authority of each of them does not extend to the area of others, hence there is no harm in there being a number of leaders and rulers. Obedience to each of them, after the oath of allegiance, is obligatory upon the people of that area where his orders and prohibitions are operative. The same goes for the ruler of each area … So realise this. For it is in full accord with the principles of the shari'ah and agrees with what the texts indicate. Ignore what is said contrary to this, since the difference in the condition of the rule of Islam in the beginning and the condition today is clearer than the daytime sun.'29 7. Although Muslims being split into countries, states and kingdoms is nowhere near ideal – given that sectarian strife and political discord exists in and among them; and many of their rulers are shabby tyrants, unfit for purpose, or have betrayed their trust as political caretakers – there is no shari'ah duty to establish the khilalfah via terror or savagery or the destruction of peoples' lives, property and honour. As the saying goes: al-'aqil la yubni qasr wa yahdamu misr – 'The intelligent one does not build a palace by laying waste to the city.' Rather, each subject or citizen lends their hand to obedience and law-abidingness, in that which does not entail disobedience. Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab said: 'For a very long time, since before the time of imam Ahmad, till nowadays, the people have not united under one single ruler. Nor is it known that any of the scholars have said that there is any ruling which is not correct except with the greater imam (al-imam al-a'zam).'30 [ch9830] In Part 2, we've seen reasons why ISIS's claim of a caliphate is fraudulent and invalid, and how some of its key views on warfare and jihad do not reflect normative readings or attitudes at all. ISIS, rather than being a true defender and carer of Muslim sanctity and lives, has gone out of its way to murder Muslims and perpetrate violence against them on a horrific scale. That their glossy media machine is now pushing the-idyllic-life-in-the-Islamic-State image, more than their usual blood and gore one, should not hoodwink anyone. If ISIS had done what they've done, under the name of politics and power grabbing, that would have been one thing. But it has done so under the name of Islam; using Islamic rhetoric; trying to justify its deeds with gross misreadings and misapplications of shari'ah texts. This is what makes ISIS so utterly shameless. This is what makes ISIS so Khawarij-like in its self-righteous obstinacy. We ask Allah that He guide us and them and forgive us our sins. We also ask Him that He steer them aright or break their backs. As for my brothers and sisters whose hearts have not been dulled by the dunya; whose souls yearn to strive in Allah's cause; whose blood flows with the love of tawhid, piety and justice; but who may have become persuaded by the ISIS narrative or feel inclined to its call – please think! Think about the proofs and arguments laid out here, as well as the words of the people of knowledge cited here. Do not dismiss them out of hand merely because the heart of the one writing this has long ago been numbed by dunyaand courage no longer courses through his veins. Instead, think about what is written here on its own merits. Consider it carefully. Consider also the many hadiths which warn against the Khawarij, and how they shall appear throughout time – even until close to the End of Days. Then ask yourselves: Who do these numerous hadiths refer to in our present day and age? Who best fits their description in these recent times? And then, with anger and emotion aside, be led by knowledge, piety and the courage of your conviction; and see ISIS for what it truly is. As for those preparing to secretly sneak away from home and join the so-called caliphal caravan, let me leave you with the following: Describing how the Khawarij sent a call out to recruit people, urging them to secretly leave their homes and join their ranks, al-hafiz Ibn Kathir wrote: 'How superb is what one of the salaf said about the Khawarij, in that they are the ones mentioned in Allah's words, exalted is He: Say: 'Shall We tell you those whose works will bring the greatest loss.' Those whose efforts have been wasted in the life of this world while they thought they were doing good. Those are they who disbelieve in the signs of their Lord and the encounter with Him. Therefore their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We give no wait to them. [18:103-5] The point is that such ignorant and misguided ones, wretched in both words and deeds, agreed upon rebelling against the Muslims …'31 |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 10:17:04 After stressing how their self-righteousness is so entrenched, that they go through life working mischief and misguidance, thinking that they are acquiring virtue, Ibn Kathir then said: 'They then wrote an open letter to whoever was upon their way and path in Basra and elsewhere, sending word to tell them to meet them by the river so they could form a single hand against the people. They then began to leave, sneaking out one by one, lest it was realised and they were then prevented. They left from amidst their fathers and mothers, and uncles and aunts; leaving all their near ones. They did this thinking, in their ignorance and in their lack of knowledge and understanding, that this matter would please the Lord of the heavens and the earth. What they didn't realise was that this was one of the worst of the major sins and destructive deeds, and one of the most contemptible of wrongdoings; and that it was made to look appealing to them by Iblis and by their egos which constantly incited towards evil. A group realized what some of their children, cousins and brothers were up to, so they stopped them, restrained them and censured them. Thereafter, some turned back and continued to be upright, while others fled and joined the Khawarij and thus were made wretched until the Day of Resurrection.'32 [ch8776] Abu Aaliyah is the founder of The Jawziyyah Institute, a leading institute for Islamic moderation and contemporary thought in the United Kingdom. Sidi Abu Aaliyah has been in involved in da'wah and Islamic teachings since 1986. He has translated a number of books from the Arabic language into English such as “The Exquisite Pearls”. Abu Aaliyah's written works and audio lectures can be found online. He blogs at thehumblei.com. NOTES: 11. Abu Dawud, no.4950. The hadith, with its various chains, strengthen each other to yield a final grading of sahih. Consult: al-Albani, Silsilat al-Ahadith al-Sahihah (Riyadh: Maktabah al-Ma'arif, 1987), no.1040. 12. Abu Dawud, no.4765. The hadith was graded sahih in al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami' al-Saghir (Beirut: al-Maktab al-Islami, 1986), no.3668. 13. Muslim, no.1066. 14. Ahmad, no.1338, and it is sahih. Consult: al-Albani, Sahih al-Jami' al-Saghir (Beirut: al-Maktab al-Islami, 1986), no.3668. 15. Dabiq (issue #9: Sha'ban, 1436), 54. 16. Kitab al-Nubawwat (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah, 1985), 140. 17. Ahkam Ahl al-Dhimmah (Dammam: Ramadi li'l-Nashr, 1997), 1:110. 18. Hidayat al-Hiyara (Mecca: Dar 'Alam al-FawaEid, 2008), 29-30. 19. Consult: al-Khallaf, al-Siyasat al-Shar'iyyah (Cairo: Matba'ah al-Salafiyyah, 1931), 75. In an age of the Internet and social media, it's almost nigh on impossible for countries to erect barriers to prevent the da'wah to Islam. 20. Bukhari, no.2797; Muslim, no.1497. 21. Muslim, no.1910. 22. Bukhari, no.6830. 23. Minhaj al-Sunnah (Riyadh: Jami'ah al-imam Muhammad ibn Sa'ud, 1986), 1:115. 24. Fath al-Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari (Cairo: al-Dar al-'Alamiyyah, 2013), 15:593. 25. See: al-Shatibi, al-I'tisam (Amman: al-Dar al-Athariyyah, 2007), 3:46. 26. Muslim, no.1852. 27. Al-Jami' li Ahkam al-Qur'an (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah, 1996), 2:30. 28. Majmu' Fatawa (Riyadh: Dar 'Alam al-Kutub, 1991), 35:175-76. 29. Al-Sayl al-Jarrar (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah, 1985), 4:512. 30. Al-Durar al-Saniyyah fi'l-Ajwibat al-Najdiyyah (n.p., 1995), 9:5. 31. Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah wa'l-Nihayah (Dar al-Hijr, 1998), 10:580. 32. ibid., 10:581. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by raydawg on 10/11/15 at 10:57:29 If you don't mind......Pecatori, I'll wait until after bot Snopes it, to read, or not ;D |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/11/15 at 14:57:42 TL;DR, mpescatori, copypasta might as well be plagiarized by you. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? (not a copypasta of someone else's diatribe) Do you know WHY they're attacking? Did it occur to you they may be DEFENDING their homeland from invasion, rape and/or the pillage of resources? (note - I do NOT know their motives, nor pretend to know, I do KNOW to ask these questions BEFORE I spew forth any propaganda or hatred) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/15 at 16:20:03 I don't know anything about this bunch who call themselves Isis. I only get the tales from the media. I'm remembering the horror of the Taliban, and, all I Know of them is that when they were ruling, the poppy crop was at an all time low. After WE, the Just Say No capitol of the world, invaded and occupied, now it's setting records,, I suspect that we have had a hand in the creation of these bad guys, for perpetual war. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/11/15 at 19:12:48 When someone comes to this Country, Want’s to be a Citizen, of this Country and does the thing/s, classes, etc, to, become a Citizen. Fine. It does NOT matter, if they are Catholic, Prostintant, Jewish, Mormon, or Etc, Etc,. But when someone comes to, THIS, country, and says: “you WILL Do Things MY Way, or I will CUT OFF Your Head” We got a problem ! Now, Every religion, (or non religion), has it’s own believes, which are different. And All of them, will talk to you, to, ‘convert’, you to their believe. But their is ONLY ONE, that says: “ I will CUT OFF Your Head”, if you do Not believe in MY religion ! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 22:50:28 4C6F527173686F66010 wrote:
MnSpring, nobody here is discussing immigration, you're off topic. I am a regular member of a Canadian Forum called "Muslim Matters" (and have been for years) and they are discussing ISIS not as Canadians but as Muslims. The end of the story is: 1. Such extremism has always existed, ever since the Prophet Muhammad himself, 2. Moderate Muslims are not at all happy about ISIS, of how it regualrly destroys Sanctuaries and monuments regardless of their origin, and are concerned by the apparent indifference of the Powers That Be. In other words, they are more concerned than most Americans appear to be concerned. I created this post in order to show all those who participate in this Forum (including a few "holier than thou" Christians who paste nothing but hate on their Facebook page) that there is more, much more than the eye can see at first glance. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 23:11:51 445B5D5A4740714171495B571C2E0 wrote:
Alas, my friend, you are not alone. Who relies on the Arms Industry lobbies ? Who unilaterally started the last two wars ? Who stated "After Iraq, it will be Syria"? If a political analyst could see this comind over 10 years ago, then, again, the writing was on the wall... http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/the_iraqi_mud_flats.html The Iraqi Mud Flats By Trent Telenko on August 20, 2003 "The most powerful strategic offensive is one where you dictate the strategic and operational tempo of the war and force the enemy to attack a strong defensive position you have taken. In so many words, you want to be on the strategic and operational offensive and the tactical defensive. It has been clear for some time that the one invasion in the Arab world will not be enough. There will be other invasions and occupations. Successful irregular resistance to those coming invasions requires that the guerillas "swim in the sea of the people," to quote Mao. The aftermath of Saddam's secular tyranny and the ethnic divisions in Iraq has left it less than a pond for foreign Islamic extremists to act as guerillas. It is a mud flat. A ground of America's choosing where the Islamic extremists will come out of the the Arab world's deep water to be killed. This is idea different from the "Flypaper" idea in that Iraq is also a training ground for future occupations by American forces. One that signals the next "low hanging fruit" invasion target and future 'mud flat' candidate. The America military is learning how to occupy and successfully pacify a secular Arab tyranny. It will be far easier for America's military to occupy another secular Arab tyranny than an Islamic tyranny like Iran or Saudi Arabia. The name for that tyranny is Syria. After Iraq, it will be Syria's turn to play mud flat for Hezbollah and other Lebanese terrorist groups. Beyond that, America will eventually destroy and occupy the Islamic tyrannies. When that happens, the guerilla resistance will be much less of a problem as they most dedicated extremists will already be dead in Iraqi and Syrian mud flats. America is engaged in the powerful form of strategic attack. It has occupied ground of absolute importance to our terrorist enemy and is forcing them attack it. Breaking them as they try. Weakening them for future military invasions and occupations. This is the Bush Administration plan for the War on Terrorism, and it is working. " Just Google "US Strategy Iraq Syria" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11527.htm |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 23:27:46 5B7A6C7A6D6B4D7E6B1F0 wrote:
;D ;D ;D Man, you break me up ! You are really good, you should be doing stand-up comedy !!! http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/24/middleeast/syria-isis-palmyra-shrines/ "ISIS fighters have destroyed two ancient Muslim shrines in the oasis city of Palmyra, the Syrian government confirmed Wednesday, the latest act of cultural vandalism by the Sunni extremists. ISIS seized control of Palmyra, a UNESCO World Heritage Site dating back 2,000 years" http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34111092 "Syria's head of antiquities had suggested on Monday that the Temple of Bel was still standing, despite reports of a massive explosion at the weekend. But Unosat analysts said the main structure had been reduced to rubble, as well as a line of columns beside it. IS captured the Unesco World Heritage site from government forces in May." http://nypost.com/2015/09/04/isis-destroys-ancient-tombs-in-latest-crime-against-civilization/ "Islamic State militants destroyed three ancient tower tombs in the central city of Palmyra in the last few days, a Syrian government official said Friday. Tower tombs, built on high ground, are a particular feature of the Roman-era ancient caravan city. Maamoun Abdulkarim, the head of the Antiquities and Museums Department in Damascus, said Friday the militants destroyed the tower tombs, including the Elahbel tower that dates back to the 103 A.D." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3035534/Video-Islamic-State-group-destroys-ancient-ruins-Nimrud.html "Shock new video shows ISIS thugs smashing historic Iraqi city of Nimrud with barrel bombs, bulldozers and jackhammers in orgy of destruction slammed as a war crime by the United Nations ISIS fighters destroyed ancient ruins of Iraqi Assyrian city of Nimrud dating back to the 13th century B.C. The attack, near Mosul, took place last month, but a seven-minute video of destruction has now emerged It shows militants hacking and drilling away at 3,000-year-old relics and blowing up the ancient ruins The U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has called the destruction of the Nimrud ruins 'a war crime'" http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/04/150414-why-islamic-state-destroyed-assyrian-palace-nimrud-iraq-video-isis-isil-archaeology/ "Why ISIS Hates Archaeology and Blew Up Ancient Iraqi Palace On April 11th, a brief video appeared on social media and quickly became the subject of international news headlines and the target of global condemnation. It was exactly what the Islamic State (ISIS) wanted. The roughly seven-minute video shows the destruction of what experts confirm is the Northwest Palace at Nimrud, built in the ninth century B.C. by the Assyrian King Ashurnasirpal II. “Whenever we take control of a piece of land, we remove the symbols of polytheism and spread monotheism in it,” a jihadi tells the camera before the structure is destroyed with explosives. By invoking the sins of shirk, or idolatry, the Islamic State is trying to establish their legitimacy as the proper heirs to the legacy of earlier “destroyers of idols,” including the prophets Abraham and Muhammed, says Christopher Jones, a PhD student at Columbia University who has been documenting damage to ancient sites in Iraq at the Gates of Nineveh blog. The Islamic State’s notion of shirk not only applies to pre-Islamic sites like Nimrud, but also any Islamic heritage that does not follow their strict Sunni interpretation of Islam, as well as sites belonging to the region’s religious minorities, including Yazidis, Kurds, and Christians. Their primary target is what they refer to as the ‘near enemy,’ being anyone other than Salafist Sunni Muslims. After that they target pre-Islamic heritage. According to ISIS, 'these monuments should not be excavated and restored, but viewed with 'disgust and hatred.'" http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183392#.VhtP9WsllnQ "ISIS Destroys Tombs of Biblical Prophets Jonah, Daniel Eyewitnesses claim ISIS rigged both tombs with explosives, despite the fact that both prophets are considered holy to Muslims. The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) has destroyed the tomb of Biblical Jonah, according to Arabic media outlets, in a show of disdain for non-Islamic cultures. “ISIS militants have destroyed the Prophet Younis (Jonah) shrine east of Mosul city after they seized control of the mosque completely,” a security source, who kept his identity anonymous, told the Iraq-based al-Sumaria News Thursday. “The militants closed all of the mosque doors and prevented worshipers from entering to pray." Jonah the Prophet is known as the paradigmatic example of teshuva, repentance, in the Bible, and his story is recorded in the Koran as well. According to Al-Arabiya, Jonah's tomb was dated to the eighth century BCE, and his tomb was also one of the many historic mosques said to have been destroyed by ISIS Islamists. A local Mosul official, Zuhair al-Chalabi, also told Iraqi news outlets last week that Prophet Daniel's tomb was also destroyed." THIS IS NO LAUGHING MATTER ! OR... are you secretly condescending WBC ? :-? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/11/15 at 23:53:34 113026302721073421550 wrote:
Copy and paste is essential when you are trying to induce people into reading a text which they would otherwise ignore. I take it that you simply realized I had posted more than a three-line paragraph and WHOA! TOO LONG! and simply shrugged it off. OK, you're entitled to. My thoughts ? You won't like them... Who likes iSIS ? Nobody does, yet next to nobody is willing to fight them. Whose Armies would be available to fight them ? The Syrian Army, whom YOU (as a Nation and Leadership) have declared "bad guys of the World" and boycotted. The Iraqi Army, whom YOU (as a Nation and Leadership) have decided to disband following an insane choice of domestic political leadership. The Saudi Army ? Gimme a break, they are funded 100% by YOU and they are much too busy looting and pillaging a nearby nation (Yemen) after staging a coup for the sole sake of annexation. OK, so who's left ? Europe ? Whose Leaders are all too busy trotting behind the Euro-lobby of bankers ? The US ? Who are all too far away for most people even to know where Syria sits in a world map ? (I will spare you the YouTube clips - all too true) Russia ? Oh, another bad guy ? Or is it that they could be the only ones with sufficient Leadership and foresight to actually see what's lurking under the horizon, realize it's looking ugly, and decide to take action before it's too late ? Precedents: - Somalia: The US and UN's forces trampled the Somali Constitution, refused to acknowledge the Head of the Senate as the new Head of State, imposed a University friend of the UN Secretary General's as new President, and the result is a 20-year civil war, still ongoing, piracy in the Indian Ocean and bandit raids in Northern Kenia... Al-Shabaab. - Haiti: Google it, it makes me sick, the US funded and backed three dictators in a row. - Kosovo: You can't tell night from day, you defended illegal Albanian (Muslim) immigration into a Serb (Christian) Province, bombed Belgrade (incidentally, you also bombed the chinese embassy) and now thanks to you Europe has the first officially Muslim state... - Iraq: the Mother of all Messes - Afghanistan: The Mother in Law of Iraq - Syria: thank you very much... stay out of it, please, Syria is NOT in your hemisphere. If you're not willing to tackle North Korea, leave the world alone. And before you cry "Insult !" read this page... if you can read at all... http://isreview.org/issue/77/making-somalias-nightmare-worse PS Farah Aidid's son traned in the Italian Military Academy with me, we were Officer cadets in the same Platoon. Contrary to former President Siad Barre, a true cowboy, Farah Aidid was a true gentleman, "Robert E.Lee" style. How would you rate Boutros Boutros Ghali ? Can you even remember who he was, without googling his name ? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/12/15 at 02:21:38 Dedicated to those who can understand a little Spanish - very interesting videoclip. It's all documented history. If you don't understand Spanish, may the cartoon suffice. This is not about proving who was right or wrong or misled or whatever, this is about how we can correct the mistakes of the past in order to avoid those future ones, made by those who are too blind to see beyond the tips of their noses. http://www.facebook.com/fpaniorte/videos/10207603254664027/?fref=nf :) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/12/15 at 18:54:33 Ann Coulter; Sept 14, 2001 We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/12/15 at 19:00:32 Mark, that line reminds me of how it's been for eons with the ruling class. Trading bibles for resources. Convert or DIE. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/13/15 at 05:52:43 7E5F495F484E685B4E3A0 wrote:
If that were ever true in the manner commonly believed is up to serious debate. However, those days are long gone and aren't coming back. Islam gets all the free passes now. They invade our country, but they don't kill our leaders. Why would they? Predident Hopey-change has been a pretty good friend to Islam in America. Next door to me in Illinois, Sen. thingy Durbin is demanding we bring in 100,000 Syrians. Screw him. He won't ever live next to one, will never interact with one, it won't effect him at all. He won't be watching the Chicago marathon 5 years from now when one of them detonates a pipe bomb. Islam is incompatible with peaceful existence in the world community. As the % of a nation's Islamic population rises, so does their violence towards others. Our friend Mpesc is pointing out a group that kills 10 is worst than a group who kills 8. Big whoopty f'ing deal. Islamic fascists, regardless of what alphebety letters we identify them with, are the Nazis of our day. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/13/15 at 10:00:12 It is said, about 5% of Germans, were, Nazi's. So that leaves 95%, that did NOTHING ! Can we, 'learn' from History ? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Dane Allen on 10/13/15 at 11:22:14 2F3227312123362D302B420 wrote:
There were many Germans who were extremely alarmed at the rise of the Nazis, there were many Italians who were extremely alarmed at the rise of Mussolini, there were any Japanese who were extremely alarmed at the rise of Imperial Japan, there were many Russians who were extremely alarmed at the rise of socialism, and the list goes on and on. I am not sure what benefits "converting" to a "moderate" view is supposed to provide but judging from human history there does not appear to be much benefit at all. Why don't all these "moderates" start to get radical on the peace and prosperity side of life and take care of their own house and stop hurting the rest of us? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by pg on 10/13/15 at 14:06:07 How come women & children are never included in the pics of the refuges? They look like they are men from about their late teens to early 40s. Something isn't just right..... ::) Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/13/15 at 14:20:22 What the heck is your news source?????... :-?... https://www.google.com/search?q=syrian+refugees&biw=971&bih=573&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMIwYCq96_AyAIVyTSICh1GvAMD http://russia-insider.com/sites/insider/files/users/7829/4-Sep-2015/syrian_refugees.jpg http://cdn1.pri.org/sites/default/files/migration/PriMigrationsDamanticWordpressAttachmentsImagesMigration/www.theworld.org/wp-content/uploads/Syria-refugees620.jpg http://muslimmirror.com/eng/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Russia-aid-Syrian-refugees.jpg |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/13/15 at 16:05:14 who you gonna believe? who knows the exact number but one things fir sure, there's bad apples among them. http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/13/15 at 18:14:12 So, from the link above. Of the OVER 1/2 a MILLION just in 2015, Going to some place in Europe. It Looks like 69% are MEN ? (Rather Close, to 2/3rds, rather than the, (what many would think is the norm), of 1/4 Gosh, I would think, 1 man, 1 woman, and 2 kids, Would be, 'ABOUT", 25% men, 25% Women, 50% Kids. But 69% Men ????????? Do ya, think, their, Just Maybe, Just MAYBE, some, 'Terrorist/s', HIDING, in that group ? But I suppose, one could be like the St. Paul people, Who took the, Somalians to their heart. (OBTY, St Paul Minn, is the Second Largest population of Somalians in the, WORLD. The Largest, is Somalia) And, Today, we have Gov Gofey, trying to, 'STOP', the Somalians, from, Joining ISIS. Let's see. They got FREE, Education/Food/Housing/Health care. And Now, they want to go live in a cave, sleep on sand, look out for snakes/lizards/scorpions, eat rocks & twigs. ??????? GIVE THE A FIRST CLASS TICKET. CHARTER THEM A FLIGHT ! But no, it is Much better, that they are, "KEPT", here, to they can commit ALL Sorts of crimes, and LIVE off the Taxpayers. Of course, I suppose it goes with the mindset, of St. Paul. In the 20's 30's, St Paul was a HAVEN, for the Notorious CRIMINALS of the day. St Paul said: "Come Here, you will NOT, be prosecuted, as long as you do not commit any crimes here". But I guess, the Latest, 'REFUGEES', St Paul brought here, (and ALL the REST of US), paid for. Didn't get the complete message ! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/15 at 18:55:49 I'm comforted, not really shocked or surprised, that the average Muslim is bothered by the actions of the radicals. I see that in a few places. I am dismayed by the actions of America, things done in other countries, in My name, that I don't agree with. I have known Jews. Ran around with a guy named Fisher,, had no idea, didn't CARE that his family were Jews,, race, nothing matters to me, except behavior. I don't want certain people for friends, but skin Color or what part of the planet someone's great great grandma was born doesn't matter. Israeli foreign policy should disturb the Jewish people, just as American policy disturbs me, and radical Muslim action bothering the mainstream types is no shock. There's hope for humanity. Thanks for that, Pesci. I'll go ahead and admit, I tried reading the posts, but I can't keep the sects straight, it was just too complex for me. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/13/15 at 20:10:45 Quote:
That is the POINT ! No One Cares, What Color of your Skin, Religion, or where you Came from ! No One. (Or very, Very, few). It is how, YOU, Act ! STOP, 'BLAMING', others, like YOU, (In Color of your Skin, Religion, or where you Came From), for acts they do. YOU, stop them. Do Not expect, someone ELSE to do it for you ! And if you do, NOT stop them, do NOT, Blame, others, when they DO, saying : "Oh You must be 'predigest". Someone comes into my yard, with a rusted out mini- PU, with a rusted out chest freezer in the bed, with three people in it, one gets out looking at the Pole barn, one taking notes, one walking up to me, "E go fresh See Food for sale”. (Hello, it’s MINN ??????) , “”””””” Fresh, Sea Food ”””””””” ????? Don’t CARE, what, ‘ What Color of your Skin, Religion, or where you Came from ’, How do you ACT !!!!!!!! So, 90% +/- of, Muslims, say they are, ‘Moderate’. OK Great. Not a problem at all. Then, YOU, (the 90% of the, 'moderate', Muslims), do something about the other 10%. And if you do NOT, do NOT, tell me, I am, ‘Predigest’. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/14/15 at 01:01:03 "Next door to me in Illinois, Sen. D.ick Durbin is demanding we bring in 100,000 Syrians. Screw him. " Are you aware that Christianity originated in the Middle East and that the very first to be evangelized were in the Middle East ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church :-? Are you aware that the very first Chritian temples excavated ("Nasreen" Synagogues) were in what was then the Kingdom of Israel (the lewd and evil Samaritans of the Gospels; Jerusalem being the Capital City of the Kingdom of Judea) and in the Province of Syria, in the Roman Empire? "The Syriac Orthodox Church traces its history to one of the first Christian communities in Antioch, described in the Acts of the Apostles (New Testament, Acts 11:26) and established by the Apostle St. Peter in AD 37." :-? Are you aware that as long as the Ottoman Empire ruled, Jews and Christians were leading a peaceful life, http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Gennadios.jpg but after its collapse and French/British (hence, Christian) Protectorates in 1921, Zionism rose violently and that sparked a Christian epuration nobody is willing to talk about ? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mLLJUEiVWoo/Uwj19QNF29I/AAAAAAAADI0/7c3WNBPrTF0/s1600/images+(2).jpg++During+WWI,+the+British.jpg (Mind you, my Parents in Law are Christian Palestinians from Bethlehem, family name "David", yet they were still driven out by Israeli Forces because they were not jews) :-? Are you aware of the Christian and Jewish communities which live in Tunisia, Morocco and Egypt, and who live in peace? But in Lybia they were driven out just like Christians? http://www.lstatic.org/UserFiles/images/Lebanon/Diverts/Small/MJO-Logo.gifhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1019/1008744762_ffa30ccc4a.jpg Next time you want to chastise me with rigorous moral values, please go to Topeka, KS, and speak to the Elders of the Westboro Bapitst Church. THAT, my friend, is exactly the same attitude, only they haven't started shooting at other Christians... :-? ...yet ? :-X See what I mean ? :-[ |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/14/15 at 01:19:42 For your information; it's only a one page read. http://securityobserver.org/the-enemy-of-my-enemy-is-now-my-friend-the-fight-against-the-islamic-state-in-iraq-and-the-levant/ http://www.understandingwar.org/publications?type[]=backgrounder&type[]=map&type[]=other_work&type[]=report&tid[]=315&field_lastname_value=&sort_by=created&sort_order=DESC Interesting reads, and much more detailed info than what you find on "America Today". |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/14/15 at 05:19:15 Mpes, have no idea what Westboro has to do with thingy Durbin pandering by bringing 100,000 Muslims refugees into this country when we all know he'll never come into contact or suffer because of it. One good point about Westboro for you to consider, they've not set a back pack down with a ball bearing bomb next to an 8 year old kid, they've not walked on a military base and started shooting, they've not walked into a newspaper critical of them and opened fire..... and on and on and on. The world is under attack by Islamic fascist, not Christian fascist. Sorry, but I missed the story about Christians flying planes into buildings and as much as Westboro talks, they've not marched any gays to the top of a building and thrown them off to the cheers of the gathered crowd below. Not sure why you have such a preoccupation with dragging obscure historical details into this century as if they completely explain todays world. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/14/15 at 06:35:17 Quote WM: "Not sure why you have such a preoccupation with dragging obscure historical details into this century as if they completely explain todays world." ..................................................... I do. If you don't approve of dragging historical details into this century, maybe you should ask why you, as a Baptist, refer to the Bible? ..................................................... PS. "Predigest" ?? ;D |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/14/15 at 07:12:47 586A6D7C7B6A7D426E7D640F0 wrote:
Geez, we have to back to the 1st grade and start teaching you to read all over again... The Syrians the US is volunteering to host are Christians. Just like good ol' Germany is volunteering to host. Christians, not Muslims. I accept the fact that being born and raised to the sound of "heehaw!" and square dancing, you may find it difficult to understand and accept there are other types of music in the world... Why do you find it so difficult to believe that there are Christians in the Middle East? HOLY BALONEY, CHRISTIANITY ORIGINATED IN THE MIDDLE EAST NOT IN LONDON OR PARIS!!! >:( Now that we've set at least history straight, you claim "we're not Flying planes into buildings". No, you are not. But you are bombing the only life-saving infrastructure left in a ruined Country, thus targeting civilians. This is from YOUR OWN horse's mouth. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/10/13/putin-cites-us-bombing-attack-on-aleppo-power-station-as-strange/ You have a history of staging and fighting wars by proxy. It is a Dangerous game, and sometimes the "Victor" is not as grateful and loyal as you expect him to be. So the "war theater" falls from war to civil war, to a "peace enforcement war" to another civil war... Why can't you just let them solve their own problems? ... see Somalia... And, for your information, wars are fought on ideology and based on propaganda, which fed to the people because they do no remember (or never knew, or couldn't care less) how the facts really went before someone started screaming into the microphone. Think about it. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/14/15 at 07:34:15 Geez, we have to back to the 1st grade and start teaching you to read all over again... Stop right there..... do you not get the concept of condescending attitude? Seriously? Is it being lost in your translation from Italian to English? Cause if you seriously intend on starting like that, I stop reading and you can kiss my a$$. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Dane Allen on 10/14/15 at 11:58:35 5E4356405052475C415A330 wrote:
My apologies but I have to stop you here, this is pure garbage. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/14/15 at 16:59:18 mpescatori Said: " ... The Syrians the US is volunteering to host are Christians. ..." Really, All of them? If you say so, guess it's just like Minn then, where all one has to do, to get their tabs/plate, for a M.V., is, 'say', they have Insurance. (Don't NEED no Stinking Proof). Oh, mpescatori, If you ever want to come to Minn in the Summer, (it's really beautiful), I have a lot here, for sale, cheep, and it's Ocean Front! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/14/15 at 19:00:47 mpescatori: RE: Ocean Front Property in Minn. Lest you believe I am being, ’sarcastic’, let me explain. That, ’Swamp Lot’, (in MN), has water in it. Water flows down hill. That water from that lot, flows into a little ditch. Which flows into a bigger ditch, which flows into a small lake, which flows into a bigger lake, Then then flows into a small river, then flows into a larger river, Which Then, flows into the Mississippi river. Which then flows into the Gulf Of Mexico, Which Then flows into the Atlantic OCEAN. So you see, it IS, Ocean Front Land. !!!!!!!!! Just the same, as ALL, Refugees, coming into the US, are, ‘Christian’. And, NOT, People wanting to, ‘BEHEAD’ us, because WE, do NOT succumb, to, THEIR ways ! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by pg on 10/15/15 at 04:50:01 How long until we hear about the relatives that are going to get a free ticket because they didn't make the first trip? Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/15/15 at 07:13:32 5774496A6873747D1A0 wrote:
............................................................. I wonder if the Danes used that water to make the beer they sold you!! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/15/15 at 08:05:15 OK, lost in translation, "going back to the 1st grade" IS an idiomatic expression, meaning "you are missing the basics", in this case, basic facts. Germany volunteered to "take in as many Syrian refugees as is necessary - provided they are Christians" My source (which I lost, being one of the many screenshots of MSN.com (of which I sometimes succeed in getting the US version) simply said the US is considering following German example and accepting Syrian refugees... "German example"... Having said that, I wouldn't half dare kissing WM's A$$ fearing I might kiss his face by mistake... :D Last - I do lioke that ocean front opportunity, I still have some 30-y.o. Argentinian Bonds which must be worth a fortune in interest !!! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/15/15 at 08:39:08 As I said in my opening post: the purpose of this thread is "to inform you that Muslims here in [Western nations] are extremely alarmed by ISIS and are concerned that Egypt and saudi Arabia are doing/saying nothing about the whole matter." At which point, I ask myself... - how many of you have a passport ? - how many of you have ever travele to Europe? Or Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, which are secular states, certainly not "Islamic"... - how many of you have any in-depth experience of life in Europe or the secularize states I mentioned... Keep in mind saying "I was in the USAF and was posted three years in Izmir" only means that for three years you lived in-base and ate imported food... I know, I was posted 4 years in Bagnoli (JFC-Naples, formerly AFSouth) and regularly visited your PX and Commissary - seeing US Servicemen buy steak, cereals or canned soup imported from the US is one thing, but fresh produce? Lettuce and tomatoes imported wholesale from across the ocean? Milk and dairy? As in, many had the tendency to lock themselves "in the wire" and knew next to nothing about the Nation they were guests of... So I'm not surprised of this "OMG a foreigner! An Alien!" attitude many of you sport. Geez... :-X http://borgdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/cowboys-and-aliens-title.jpg |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by old.indian on 10/15/15 at 09:44:14 mpescatori: Please cease attempting to confuse us with facts and logic.. The "experts" and "commentators" on the (corporate owned)entertainment media will confirm any view point we wish to hold (no matter how absurd). So PLEASE Cease. Stop. And Desist your confusing dialog using facts, logic and big words. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/15/15 at 12:36:01 mpescatori, you do NOT know me. I have a passport. I lived in Germany/France. And I was military. Hey, guess what? I ATE THE LOCAL FOOD. Had dinner in local homes. Enjoyed coffee at local cafe's. Even enjoyed the BEER. But, I wasn't WELCOMED by all locals. In fact, it was the opposite at most local joints, we even had a BLACKLIST back on base. Why, because that beloved EU of yours hated us! I did my best to make peace with locals, I've had plenty of cultural diversity training, and it stuck with me, the whole tolerance thing. Don't try to lump us all in the same pot. To answer your question: I could give a rat ass what or who isis is or what they stand for. How about you take your issue(s) to the locals? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/15/15 at 12:39:37 mpescatori, this should get your britches in a wad: I even helped my oldest boy (combat infantry) with questions he had about South and North Korea. He asked me for data on their culture, as he didn't want to "live in the wire" and wanted to EXPERIENCE their culture. Go figure, an AMERICAN soldier learning about another culture? Unheard of right? Like finding a unicorn! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/15/15 at 18:59:42 Let’s see, what are the possibilities. 1. Some one from the USA, goes to a different Country, and stays in the house, (Invited), of a member/s, (who are on this site). (Who lives in Italy. Or maybe in the UK) They have a, key to the house, a bedroom, and a bathroom, at their disposal. Their plans are to stay for two weeks, maybe three. They will take their meal/s, outside the home, and when, invited, sit down at the family table for a meal. They will adjust to, the place their are in, and abide by all the customs, of that Local. And they give a, ‘stipend’, in the form of a gift, for the graciousness of their host. Their may be times, when, ‘fluid of the grape’, is consumed, And long discussions, which may last several hours, occur. 2. Someone, (perhaps from the UK or Italy) comes to the USA, and the same things, (above), happen. 3. Someone from the USA, (or ANY Country), takes into their house, a, Family, from, any, (Place in the Mesopotamia area). Would all the above apply ? OR, would, ALL the meals, be expected to be taken at the ‘Family’ table. And ALL, the food requirement, be expected to be changed. And the, Host, be expected to PAY, for ANY, Altercations for, Food, Bathroom, Sleeping , ‘requirements’. ? And, the, ’stay’, be, 2-3 YEARS. 4. Let the, "Guberment do it”. It will then, ONLY cost a few dollars more in Taxes. Which of these, ‘Possibilities’, do you think is feasible ? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/15/15 at 21:02:38 I'm wondering if all this squawking was going on when we took in all the refugees from the failed USSR? Or Operation Paperclip? I'm in classes with a huge number of refugees from all over the planet, where's all the squawk about them? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/16/15 at 01:31:46 Aha ! fair comment ! I await the replies. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by pg on 10/16/15 at 01:54:55 A couple thousand scientists, engineers, and technicians is much more acceptable. A direct benefit exists do to their abilities as well as the opportunity cost to ensure the Soviets didn't receive their knowledge. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by pg on 10/16/15 at 03:04:17 2631373B3424560 wrote:
That's easier to tolerate compared to hundreds of thousands of people who are going straight to the well fare doles as soon as they arrive. I'm not certain how many of them have any intention of assimilating to the new culture as well. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Paraquat on 10/16/15 at 09:23:57 Immigration without assimilation is an invasion. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Tocsik on 10/16/15 at 11:32:49 Nothing against legal and proper immigration for the right reasons (it's how this country started, after all), but we must be careful about the current/recent influx of these particular immigrants. In this case, there are large numbers of folks coming to America WHO HATE US. Some of their reasons may be valid (like the amount of money our country spends on entertainment like creating billion dollar movies) but whatever the reason for their hatred (mostly what they are told by religious leaders who don't actually get to know the PEOPLE of our country; not just our country) they do, in fact, hate us. The Hijra is underway and has been for quite some time. Here is 4 minutes of some scary shiite. https://www.youtube.com/embed/6PzT8vEvYPg |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by oldNslow on 10/16/15 at 12:09:43 Quote:
I think they should all go to Italy. mpescatori won't mind. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/16/15 at 13:41:37 1A2425293B2726480 wrote:
He'll kick their a$$... ;D ;D ;D... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/16/15 at 15:09:39 6856575B4955543A0 wrote:
now that's funny right there ;D |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/16/15 at 18:14:30 he'll post pages and pages of condescending bull$hit and within a week, they'd rather put a bullet in their heads than listen to him..... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/16/15 at 18:52:50 [/quote] " ... He'll kick their a$$... ;D ;D ;D...[/quote] And ya know. THAT, is what they NEED !!! OK, not a problem helping someone. BIG, problem, having, (the person you are graciously helping). Tell YOU : NO, you MUST do it MY WAY! Lets see, their was a hurricane, in the South of the USA, 100’s of thousands of families/people were displaced. In Minn, a Place between St Cloud/Little Falls, A, Army instillation, said: “WE, will TAKE, 5,000”. The instillation, set up beds in buildings, for, all male/all female/ families. The ramped up the cafeteria, and medical facilities to take care of them. ALL FREE. THEN, the Citizens got involved, and said: ‘We have arranged Buses, and Work. The buses will take you 15 or 20 miles to either City, and drop you off, and pick up up again, and bring you back here, so you can get on your feet again. We have Clothing for you. Here are the churches, if you want, to go to. Here are the Schools that will take you.’ ALL FREE. Guess How many came ????????? 0, Nada, NONE. Gee, Golly. Why Not ?????? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/16/15 at 20:47:55 MnSpring, a LOT of that was a lack of communication. FEMA and GOV didn't relay the info to the people. That whole "operation" was a giant cluster crappity smack! Look at all the scams and embezzlement nuts that went on. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/19/15 at 11:42:06 310F0E02100C0D630 wrote:
Sorry, I've been away for the weekend looking after family. It's bnice when you have someone looking after you, and you realize just how precious this is only when YOU have to look after someone else. I won't add further details. We currently have more illegals in Italy than anyone cares to bother with. Way back in the 1970's Italy was THE haven to turn to for Polish and Hungarian immigrants; whereas in your English "Polock" is an insult to indicate someone who "just won't get it", in Italiano (at least in Rome) "Polacco" meant anyone willing to do a menial job to bring home the bacon. Then Moroccans came, selling carpets and trinkets. All very nice and decent folkm, and excellent bakers. Then the Egyptians came, same as above. Somalis we've always had, guess what? Trouble with a capital T... :-X Ethiopians are nice and generally very educatedm as are Eritreans who will - however - quarrel and pick a fight with Ethiopians if they merely see one (there's a 60 y.o. war along their border) or are "litigious". Then Albanians and Rumanians, and a good 50% were nice decent people willing to work hard and send home the money. The other 50% Hardened criminals who saw our legal system as a little boy sees a toy store, so many rights and warrants they wanted to get caught and live the life without having to do anything at all. Nothing near your US State and Federal Prison system... in Europe prisons are places where youi learn a skill and earn money waiting to be set free... The end of the story is ? The end of the story is Europe has seen so many waves of "Barbarians", guess what, Europe has regularly educated them all and they all learned to appreciate the "soft, bourgeois life of these corrupt Europeans", frmo Moorish Spain to Vandal Tunisia to Gothic N.Italy to Norman France and England... OK, so every once in a while we do get the odd dork who walks in white socks and sandals and a flowery shirt and shrugs off local cuisine looking for McDonalds... ...we can live with them, too ! http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/post/funny-pictures-auto-506095.jpeg ;D |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by oldNslow on 10/19/15 at 12:09:47 "we must be careful about the current/recent influx of these particular immigrants." mpescatori wrote: "The end of the story is Europe has seen so many waves of "Barbarians", guess what, Europe has regularly educated them all and they all learned to appreciate the ..." I'm not so sure you are going to have as much luck with a lot of the folks in the current wave, but if you want to try that's great. I sure don't want them over here, and I'm not ashamed to say so. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/19/15 at 18:38:22 DesertRat Said: “ … Look at all the scams and embezzlement nuts that went on. …” Yep, it was ALL G.W’s fault, at least that is what the Media said. You had to DIG, to find out, the, ‘Committee’, that oversaw the design of the Levees, who’s JOB was, to be sure they were of the proper design, That Would Work. Yet the people, on those, ‘Committees’, ALLOWED, Shabby, Substandard work, And took most of the money, and ‘lavishly, spent it on themselves. And when the Levees Failed, It was G.W.’s Fault, not theirs. (Had the Levees, NOT Failed, their would have been 3/4 LESS, destruction. Gee, where are they today, with the MILLIONS, they SCAMMED, from the Federal Government ? Oh, and the reason no one came to Minn. It was the ‘W’ word, (and that, was NOT, Winter). mpescatori Said: “ … in Europe prisons are places where you learn a skill and earn money waiting to be set free…” That would be great !, Especially if their was a job waiting for them, after they learned that Skill. Is their a Job, waiting? Is their people willing to hire a X-Con? Or do they, ’try’ for a while, and find out, (Because they are LAZY), it’s Tough, in the Free world. So why not commit another crime, and get the, ‘good’, life again. “ … they wanted to get caught and live the life without having to do anything at all. …” Here, (a person in Jail), Used to be able to make money, and, have a, JOB, but the Unions Quickly put a stop to that. “Taking Away Jobs”. Funny, how they don’t think, ‘Illegals’, are, “Taking Away Jobs” ? Now it is, (From reading all information, having Never been in Jail myself) Cable T.V., AC, 3 meals a day, Free Med, No ‘Wages’, no ‘Job’, so the time spent is how to become a, BETTER CRIMINAL ! Oh yea, also a FREE Legal Library, to learn from, and fill out, and file, all sorts of, documents. I am guessing, some of those people, would make Great, ‘Para-Legals’, from the study they do. But their is NO, Law firm that is going to Hire a X-Con. Even though they may know more than the, Perky, 25 year old female, who can float without a life jacket. (Gotta have that, “Eye-Candy”, BOUNCING, around, for the Clients) Wow, OK MPES, What would be the ’term’ for, robbing a (US type) Fast Food Restaurant in Italy? I could Get ALL sorts of stuff, FREE, and a Job, And Money. (Wait, I’m sorry, doing the above, in, Italy, would get one a, MEDAL, Not Jail time. LOLOLOLOL) Gee, Maybe, Just Maybe, ‘JAIL’, should be, ‘PUNISHMENT”. ( In BOTH Places !) With the Goal of, “Don’t Ever Want to go Back Their”. Not, Lets, ‘Learn’, how to become, Better Criminals. Or Learn, (and get paid to do so), a Job? (Which one should have learned, LONG, before, they went to Jail) Which brings me to the point of the USA, TAKING, 100,000 ‘Refugees’. The, Veterans, who, FOUGHT, for YOUR, Freedom come FIRST. The CITIZENS, displaced by fire/flood/etc, Come First. The CITIZENS, living under bridges or in cardboard Boxes, come FIRST. WAY, Before, you GIVE, EVERYTHING, to a, TERRORIST, who is riding on the back, of 1/8th of the ‘real’ Refugees. I would say: ‘Hey, go to Italy, they want you, they will take care of you, they will feed you, they will give you health care, they will give you shelter, they will Teach you a Job, it is closer”. It’s Just a, ‘Win/Win’. LOLOLOLOLO Do NOT, come to the USA, UNLESS, you WANT, to be a CITIZEN. Do, NOT, come to the USA, UNLESS, you Want to, become a PART, of this Nation. Do, NOT, come to the USA, Unless you want to be a, ‘contributor’, to others in this Nation. If you, do come. Expect, that, NO ONE, will tell you, ‘What to eat’. NO One, will tell you, WHO or WHAT, or WHEN, to ‘Worship’. No one will tell, YOU, how to live, YOUR, life. JUST do NOT, tell anybody, in THIS Nation, What to do !!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/19/15 at 19:06:39 If Someone, had a LS650/S40. And they decided, they want to ‘keep it original’. Or, someone had the same bike, and wanted to change it into a 'Cafe/Scrambler/Rat-rod/etc.' Then, the, ‘original’ people said: “What You Doing, you ’shouldn’t’, do that” OR The, “Cafe/Scrambler/Rat-rod/etc.”, People said: “What Ya Doing, Your Nuts” What would YOU say ???????????? If someone wanted to ride with ATGATT, Or someone want to ride with out. What would YOU, say ? Let’s see, someone comes into your, ‘place’, and you are frying bacon, then you fry eggs in that Bacon grease, Then you pour out the excess grease, and put in Hash Browns. And say, ‘Here is your FREE Meal, Because you are Hungry”. And they say: “NO, NO, NO, YOU, must NOT, do That. YOU, Must do THIS” Will you, ‘do’ as they tell you. ? Or will you say: “Well then make your own” . ? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/19/15 at 19:11:54 MnSpring, I never claimed it was W's fault, nor did I point fingers to any one party. I said LOOK at all the SCAMS. I should have been more specific. The CURRENT scams of money swindled by FEMA and other agencies who had funding diverted to them to "HELP", but STOLE the money instead. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/19/15 at 19:52:02 [quote author=644553455254724154200 link=1444583587/45#57 date=1445307114] " ... I never claimed it was W's fault, nor did I point fingers to any one party. ..." Never said you did. SAID, the MEDIA, Said ! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by DesertRat on 10/20/15 at 07:12:34 ah, got it ... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/20/15 at 08:31:37 It's probably time we stop giving a $hit what Muslims think about ISIS and address the real issue what's causing all these people to flood into civilized countries. How about we do what we do best: carpet bomb ISIS territories and then send all the refugees back to rebuild their countries. Or I suppose we can wait until ISIS starts screwing with China and let them handle it. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/20/15 at 18:56:44 A few years ago. (Not documented, but widely reported) The POTUS, Carter, was having a meeting with the, ‘Dictators/Kings’, in the Mesopotamia area. He, (supposedly) Said: ‘You will behave, or the USA will cut off your, (a list of things that the US supplied them), AND your Pea Nuts’. Well the interrupters, did NOT understand the word, ‘peanuts’, So they just interrupted: ‘ … ‘cut off your NUTS’. THAT, THEY UNDERSTOOD !!!!!!!!! Now, we have had, Clinton/King Bama, and the people in the, Mesopotamia area, totally understand, neither of those two has, possessed, ANY, Testosterone. So they will DO What they WANT, when they want, and How THEY want! Perhaps it is, time, to actually SAY: “Cut OFF YOUR NUTS” ! Gee, they, ‘Cut Off Heads’, and ’Throw people Off Buildings’. It is the, ONLY, thing they understand ! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/15 at 21:19:35 Mark, have you wondered what caused the people to leave their homes? Why are they so pissed ? You are aware of the destabilization that we have been creating? Our exports of military weapons has skyrocketed. Gee, it's just one war after another.. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/21/15 at 04:53:51 18293A29393D293C480 wrote:
Right. I'll write that down and give it to a sculptor to make a marble plaque. Then I'll send it to the Israeli Ambassador here in Rome. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/21/15 at 04:59:48 Quote:
How about scalping ? A practice well known to the Colonists since the 1600's... (PS You can't cut off their foreskins as the Bible suggests, they already did away with that... ;D ) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/21/15 at 05:04:42 2D2E266C2B2C262B232C420 wrote:
Oh... OK... Now please stop chewing on your pemmican for a moment and THINK ! Are you telling me FACTS are false ? Are you telling me that LOGIC is a lie ? OR Are you telling me that using facts and logic... is confusing you ? ::) As for "big words"... nothing more than a proper 8th grader should know, so ... ::) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/21/15 at 05:29:11 516364757263744B67746D060 wrote:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/iraq/article4591554.ece US stung into new assault on Isis by Russian action "Tom Coghlan, Michael Evans and Sofia Barbarani Last updated at 12:03AM, October 21 2015 The US is rebooting its strategy in the war against Islamic State after months of stalemate and Russia’s intervention in the Syrian conflict. The Pentagon’s plan, steered by General Joseph Dunford, America’s top military commander, would force Isis to fight on several fronts. It calls for co-ordinated offensives involving Syrian and Iraqi Kurdish forces, the Iraqi army and Iranian-backed Shia militias — which the US refuses to endorse. " ============ http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/21/world/middleeast/us-and-russia-agree-to-regulate-all-flights-over-syria.html?hpw&rref=world&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well "MOSCOW — Russia and the United States signed an agreement on Tuesday that regulates all aircraft and drone flights over Syria, the defense departments of both countries announced. At a Pentagon briefing, Peter Cook, the department’s press secretary, said the agreement, called a memorandum of understanding, established safety protocols requiring the Russians and the United States-led international coalition fighting the Islamic State in Syria to maintain professional airmanship at all times, use specific communication frequencies and establish a communication line on the ground. Anatoly I. Antonov, the Russian deputy defense minister, said in a Defense Ministry statement, “The memorandum contains a set of rules and restrictions aimed at preventing incidents between the Russian and U.S. aviation.” He did not go into details, but said it had “important practical significance.” " ============ Sorry, you're late... According to international press, the Syrian Gov't reconquered no less than 29 internal provinces thanks to Russian bombings and supplies. AND I do not know where US planes may be based, but Russian planes are based in Syrian AF Bases... It seems to me Russia has taken on the role as "Lead nation" in the Coalition in Syria, and the US had to sign that agreement in order to avoid having its drones (and planes, God forbid!) shot down by Syrian-manned Russian Air Defense. And some "allies" are having second thoughts... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Canada-withdraws-from-US-led-coalition-against-Isis/articleshow/49480779.cms |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/21/15 at 06:36:02 If your point is, the US under obama have turned into European stlye pu$$ies, i have to say i agree. Islam is this generation's version of fascism and we're repeating history. Evidence: Stupid comments by new Canadian prime minister, obama and clock boy, unreported honor killings, criticizing Israel for defending itself against murdering Palestinians, and a great phrase I read today about TSA's "see something, say something" policy, thats all well and good unless it's a Muslim in which case you're publically trashed for Islamphobia. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Dane Allen on 10/21/15 at 14:26:28 4E5346504042574C514A230 wrote:
Right. I'll write that down and give it to a sculptor to make a marble plaque. Then I'll send it to the Israeli Ambassador here in Rome.[/quote] You know Israel has been in existence for 4,000 plus years and there is no real country called Palestine, Palestine was a take off of the word Philistine and was meant as an insult to the Jews. Jordan and a few other countries surrounding the current Israel have "absorbed" land from Israel. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Dane Allen on 10/21/15 at 14:27:45 447671606776615E726178130 wrote:
I thought progressivism is this generation's version of fascism... ;D |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/21/15 at 16:33:26 Quote Dane: "You know Israel has been in existence for 4,000 plus years and there is no real country called Palestine, Palestine was a take off of the word Philistine and was meant as an insult to the Jews. Jordan and a few other countries surrounding the current Israel have "absorbed" land from Israel." ....................................................................... References to 'ancient' Israel predate those to Palestine. The country of Israel was born in 1948 in Palestine. Israel have 'absorbed' land from their surrounding nations. It's all about facts and how they can show bias when they try to be summarized ;) The DNA taken from those 'inhabiting' the 'holy land' presently show those who have 'roots' in the place.... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/21/15 at 18:02:07 mpescatori wrote Quote:
I believe that, BE-Heading was started by the ROMANS, at the, Colosseum. And widely used in the UK/ France/Mesopotamia area. LONG, before anyone came to N. America. It was a tradition, which was used by the Native People, in the, Americas. (North AND South) Only, ’scalping’ was a refined version. After all, why carry a whole head, why not just a scalp? Which was Easier to carry, yet sent the same message. It’s purpose is: …deterrence: if you break this law, this is what will happen to you… Oh, and who were well known, for putting the, Severed HEADS, of people conquered? On Pikes, lining the roads, to the towns they Just, conquered ????? But, that's not the point, that is History. The 'Point', is: 'Talking', to a bunch of, 'Bullies', does, NOT, work ! |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/21/15 at 18:05:30 Beheading goes back way before Rome... I think they did invent crucifixion,... if that makes you feel any better.... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/23/15 at 08:09:29 Beheading is quoted in the Bible, for all you Bible-thumpers. And beheading is something definitely different from scalping. In some Peoples scalping was a way to "behead yet keep the person alive". It was the same with "exile"; an exile person was not just banned from his Home Country, there was a reward on his head so that if he ever dared return, anyone (anyone!) was legally justified into executing him and cashing the reward. Hence your "Wanted - Dead or Alive" and your Bounty Killer culture. (I say "culture" because you're the only modern nation to have had Bounty Killers, not just hunters) Crucifixion was invented by the Sumerians, who were more ancient than the Egyptians themselves. I have no qualms about ancient history or on crediting this or that Civilization with whatever they invented or introduced. Suffice it to say, MnSpring, the US Judicial System still uses Roman Law. Boy, we are getting out of context, aren't we? ;) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by pg on 10/23/15 at 15:21:17 Quote:
I'm not disputing it; however, what book & verse? I would like to see the context it is used. Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/23/15 at 18:58:07 http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/1-Samuel/17/46 |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/24/15 at 05:35:07 David cut off Goliath's head. John the Baptist was beheaded. So? Is this another lame attempt to make a moral equivalency between moderen day Christianity and Islam? Sorry, but The Religion of Peace has today's market cornered on beheading as a terror tactic. What happened 4000 or even 400 years ago isn't particularly revelant to our immediate problem of ridding the world of these pest. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/24/15 at 09:54:26 122027363120370824372E450 wrote:
..................................................................... No it isn't. But if it were, it'd include the fact that modern Western Christian countries have invaded and killed more (within living memory), than Middle Eastern Muslim nations have invaded and killed. Maybe the 'religion of peace' looks different from a different angle. ;) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/25/15 at 17:09:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq_lhlIn1e0 This is old, their are newer ones, from, 'Down-Under', and I am guessing even newer ones, soon to come from the US. Just go to, you-tube, and search: " Brand New Leather Jacket " Just Love the chorus. "We get all the Benefits You get all The Bills". |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/25/15 at 17:48:25 Not really biting comedy, more like 3rd rate political propaganda, judging by the song's uploader. As soon as I saw the swastika I wasn't surprised. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/26/15 at 06:10:03 40677E617B587A6D7B646D71080 wrote:
..................................................................... No it isn't. But if it were, it'd include the fact that modern Western Christian countries have invaded and killed more (within living memory), than Middle Eastern Muslim nations have invaded and killed. Maybe the 'religion of peace' looks different from a different angle. ;) [/quote] because is suspect your definition of invaded is a bit warped, I call bull$hit. on that. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by pg on 10/26/15 at 16:28:01 54736A756F4C6E796F7079651C0 wrote:
Thanks for posting. [smiley=thumbup.gif] Best regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Paraquat on 10/27/15 at 06:16:01 302D382E3E3C29322F345D0 wrote:
Right. I'll write that down and give it to a sculptor to make a marble plaque. Then I'll send it to the Israeli Ambassador here in Rome.[/quote] There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all … The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic … There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else. - Theodore Roosevelt "Any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready." - Woodrow Wilson Looks like I'm not the only one who shares those ideals. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/27/15 at 07:39:14 Quote WM: "because is suspect your definition of invaded is a bit warped, I call bull$hit. on that." ................................................................................ Okay, let's not include invasions, but let's say bombing, sabotage and attempted government overthrow of foreign nations since WW2..... China 1945-46, Syria 1949, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Tibet 1955-70s, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959, Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960-65, Iraq 1960-63, Dominican Republic 1961, Vietnam 1961-73, Brazil 1964, Belgian Congo 1964, Guatemala 1964, Laos 1964-73, Dominican Republic 1965-66, Peru 1965, Greece 1967, Guatemala 1967-69, Cambodia 1969-70, Chile 1970-73, Argentina 1976, Turkey 1980, Poland 1980-81, El Salvador 1981-92, Nicaragua 1981-1990, Cambodia 1980-95, Angola 1980, Lebanon 1982-84, Grenada 1983-84, Philippines 1986, Libya 1986, Iran 1987-88, Libya 1989, Panama 1989-90, Iraq 1991, Kuwait 1991, Somalia 1992-94, Iraq 1992-1996, Bosnia 1995, Iran 1998, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998, Yugoslavia Serbia 1999, Afghanistan 2001, Iraq 2002-2003, Somalia 2006-2007, Iran 2005-present, Libya 2011. This list needs updating, of course ;) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/27/15 at 09:20:11 As I suspected...... Couple questions *Hey, would you say the US invaded France in 1944? *How many on your list would you say were glad as hell we 'invaded' them? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/27/15 at 09:49:51 I think we invaded France, when we put a Disneyworld there... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/27/15 at 11:46:52 5F6D6A7B7C6D7A45697A63080 wrote:
................................................................ Answer 1: Surely 1944 isn't postwar? In that World War, most of the world was at war, so statistics are more transparent in postwar, and still within living memory. Worth remembering that the majority of those in WW1 and WW2 were Christian. Answer 2: All of them, naturally, hence the popularity of the USA's foreign policy. What percentage of that list do you think weren't "glad as hell"? Now add to the list all the countries that 'christian' Britain has invaded/occupied/sabotaged, etc, (either within living memory or post WW2). Wow! That list really shows the Christian nations are peaceful. And that's only two of them! These actions were taken not by radical extremists but by the mainstream democratic governments (gulp) So, those two countries (for instance) have bombed the $hit out of most of the world, for most of our lives, but themselves have never been invaded. Not surprising that the (ahem) 'other guys with the oil' might want to punch the bully back..... (after purchasing the arms from 'you-know-who') Let's call 'capitalist greed' the 'religion of peace' ;) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/27/15 at 13:09:45 I think my questions went unanswered (which was predictable) and another ridiculous statement made. So, those two countries (for instance) have bombed the $hit out of most of the world So let me try again: Is the world better off being dominated by Christian nations (US, Great Britian) Muslim nations (Saudis or Egypt, or Iran) or atheist nations (the Nordic nations, maybe throw China in there) ? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/27/15 at 15:59:53 665453424554437C50435A310 wrote:
...................................................... The world is better off being dominated by none, would be my answer ::) Why didn't you answer my question, after your ridiculous statement about Nordic countries? I don't know for sure, but Wiki says about Norway: "About 74.3% of Norwegians were members of the Church of Norway on 1 January 2015. In 2014, about 59.3% of all newborns were baptised and about 62.9% of all 15-year-old persons were confirmed in the church." Similar story in Sweden As for the 'bombing' bit, even if the list only has a dozen of invaded countries, compare that to the times the US and UK have been invaded... How surprised can you be that what you consider to be the 'aggressor' often are people who have had enough then join together and punch the bully? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/27/15 at 18:05:44 506265747362754A66756C070 wrote:
Which is the reason I do not respond to the, 'troll'. " Oh, if this get's your 'hair up', why have you not EVER, responded, to the post where you were asked, SEVERAL Times, by SEVERAL people, WHY, you think, Margret Thatcher's quote about 'Socialism' is wrong. Instead of talking about two, mappers', in the 1700's in the UK". But then again, YOU, are Special ! You, Complain to a Moderator, about someone saying, (In Essence), 'Put your, Big Boy Pants, ON'. YET, You, can say someone does NOT have the Inelegance to see your, 'French Fry' joke. AND, INSULT their Mother. But, That's, OK. (A-Yep, Your, "Special") "We Get ALL the Benefits You get ALL the Bills" The, 'Content', is not worthy of thought, or discussion ? Because, of the, 'person' who, "posted", that clip ??????? When that, song, is from SEVERAL Countries, by Several People. Over SEVERAL Years time span. ?"?? Oh, here is another one. (POSTED By SOMEONE ELSE) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olmQXDpqmmg |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/28/15 at 08:25:24 What was all that about? ::) (Who insulted whose mother, btw?) PS. I've certainly never complained about anything, ever, to a moderator, for your information..... please give me details if you think otherwise. I hope you enjoy this film as much as I did: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0831275/ |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/28/15 at 09:40:44 I've had no complaints,... seen no "Yo Mamma" insults either... Please point out what you are referring to. Serow |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/28/15 at 10:35:45 The world is better off being dominated by none, would be my answer I'm guessing you are just jesting. That could never, ever happen. Someone will always fill the leadership void. Why didn't you answer my question, after your ridiculous statement about Nordic countries? I don't know for sure, but Wiki says about Norway: "About 74.3% of Norwegians were members of the Church of Norway on 1 January 2015. In 2014, about 59.3% of all newborns were baptised and about 62.9% of all 15-year-old persons were confirmed in the church." Similar story in Sweden My companies home office is in Sweden, I've been there. It's liberal and atheist. As for the 'bombing' bit, even if the list only has a dozen of invaded countries, compare that to the times the US and UK have been invaded... How surprised can you be that what you consider to be the 'aggressor' often are people who have had enough then join together and punch the bully? The US (or UK for that matter) hasn't invaded anyone for 100+ years. Invade means to take over. We're not taking over anybody. As for how the world view us, so what? Those same crybabies will come running with their hat in hand when they need help. It's lonely at the top.... Maybe we should just pull out and let the chips fall where they may. Next time there's a big natural disaster, we'll just turn our backs. Maybe we'll just let ISIS take over Europe. But of course we won't, good guys finish last. We all know that. As for the "Yo Momma" insults, I'm staying out of that. I generally don't engage Hovis much. Gee, another liberal European acting like a spoiled American teenage talking back to his parents while living in a big house and wearing the latest $100 tennis shoe his capitalistic father bought him. Not sure why MnSpring waded into that deep water.... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/28/15 at 10:43:19 566463727564734C60736A010 wrote:
I think you just did... ;D ;D ;D... Past months have shown you to be better than that.... Everybody, play nice... 8-).... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/28/15 at 10:54:30 Don't mix up the word 'invade', with words like 'conquer', for example. 'Invade' does not mean to 'take over'. Check Webster's dictionary ;D Are you really saying that the USA hasn't invaded a foreign country in 100+ years? ;D ;D ;D Priceless! The Nordic countries are indeed considered liberal. You've been inside an office in Sweden, good for you, but did you go to Stockholm's cathedral? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/28/15 at 11:16:52 1006110C14010C17630 wrote:
I think you just did... ;D ;D ;D... Past months have shown you to be better than that.... Everybody, play nice... 8-)....[/quote] What'd I do? If that little comment is out of bounds, then you're gonna have to shoot Mpesc. ( metaphorically of course. I don't want to get in trouble ...... again) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 10/28/15 at 15:41:43 Let’s see: “ … seen no “Yo Mamma” insults …” So it is Only a, Insult, if the words: “Yo Mamma” are used ? But flying a certain flag, IS, an Insult? Serowbot, sent you a PM |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/15 at 17:35:57 The political cartoon on Rense right now is the epitome of A picture is worth a thousand words. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 10/28/15 at 17:58:59 795A6744465D5A53340 wrote:
"Yo Mamma" was just a bad joke on my part... I will be more vigilant from now on... ' Comments can be rude and crude,.. but do not direct them personally to other members... We want all our members to stick around... Peace, Serow :)... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/28/15 at 19:55:05 Pointed, harsh, contrary, is rude,maybe, and that's just a maybe, but name calling, like You're an idiot, doesn't make a point toward directing the other person toward understanding ones point of view. Being pointed and relentless may be rude, but it's not a personal attack,like calling someone an idiot, even if it is directed to a specific person. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/29/15 at 01:06:28 0E2B242F0B26262F244A0 wrote:
I'll write that down and give it to a sculptor to make a marble plaque. Then I'll send it to the Israeli Ambassador here in Rome.[/quote] You know Israel has been in existence for 4,000 plus years and there is no real country called Palestine, Palestine was a take off of the word Philistine and was meant as an insult to the Jews. Jordan and a few other countries surrounding the current Israel have "absorbed" land from Israel.[/quote] My dear friend, either you understand squat about ancient history,or your Sunday School mentor has brainwashed into becoming a jewish Christian. First things first, No-one from the Book of genesis is an "Israeli"; Israel being the nickname of Jacob, and "Israeli" meaning "blood descendant". So, scientifically speaking, the documented line of Israel ends with Manasseh and Ephraim, the two Egyptian children born of Joseph, son of jacob. That means three generations: Jacob, Joseph (and his brothers) and Manasseh + Ephraim. When Moses asks "Pharaoh" (most probably bthe Governor of Goshen) to "free my people", he means "the sons of those who immigrated with Jacob" but the number of generations is unknown. When the "People of Israel" reachthe "Promised land", it is none other than those territories which were inhabited by Jacob (who emigrated to Egypt) and Esau (who stayed and roughed it and survived) The result is the most ancient chronicle of war, invasion, mass murders and ethnic cleansing documented in human history. It didn't last long, because "Israel" was consantly at war and walking about with a perennial chip on its shoulder. If you read the Books of Judges you'll see that most of the time "Israel" was a local principality vassal to the Philistine Kingdom. David killed Goliath (archaeology says he didn't but that's another story) and for four generations Israel was sovereign: Saul, David (usurper) Solomon (not the first born, nor from the Queen) Roboham, after whose death the Kingdom split and goodbye Israel. That there was an cultural identity, nobody denies that, but to say "Israel existed to 4000 years" is as false as saying the moon is made of green cheese. "Israel" (actually, Kingdom of Judah) was vassal Principality to the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the babylonians, the Persians, the Romans until they became such a nuinsance Jerusalem was razed to the ground. All in all, "Israel" as a sovereign state lasted 4 generaitons, about as much as the Christain Kingdom of jerusalem between the 1st and 2nd Crusade. Incidentally, the current title of "King of Jerusalem" belongs to the Savoy - Italian. So read a book on "investigative archaeology" or "comparative archaeology"(*) before going to Sunday School next time. (*) this means archaeologists checking historical sources from neighboring Nations before believing wholeheartedly to only one opinable source. ========== A for "Philistine", whose Bible are you reading ? Septuagint ? KJV from Masoretic Hebrew ? Masoretic is known to be an unreliable source even to the jews themselves! ;D :-? In the Septuagint "Philistine" is used only 12 (twelve) times to refer to a specific people in a specific timeframe when "Israel" was at war with them (and generally lost) In the Masoretic O.T. the name "Philistine" is used almost 300 times to refer to "foreign enemy" in general - vague, unfair and historically unreliable ... Archaeology has proven beyond any doubt that the original Philistines were a "People of [from] the Sea" originating from Crete - hence, different metallurgy and different war tactics meant that if they were superior once, they were superior always. In fact the Philistines regularly kicked ass. Their region became known as Phalastiniya - Palestine after the name of those who lived there. The Egyptians called that land Palestine. The Assyrians called that land Palestine. The Babylonians called that land Palestine. The Persians called that land Palestine. The Romans called that land Palestine. All the turkic dynasties which ruled since the fall of the Roman Empire called that land Palestine. Even the English called that land "Palestine" from 1920 to 1946. Now comes Bronson and it's not calle "Palestine" any more ? Suits you, Sir, suits you ... Let's call England "Fish'n'Chippya"... see what the locals think ! (Sorry Hovis, had to pick on someone who can take the pun) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/29/15 at 01:31:24 754740515647506F435049220 wrote:
:o In 1944 Northern France (Capital city, Paris) was annexed to germany and was under a German military government with a German General as Governor; Southern France (Capital city, Vichy) was collaborationist to Nazi germany with a philo-Nazi Government, Marchal Pétain being the Military Governor. So, yes, France was de facto invaded and only when the Allied troops had physical and political control could you say it was "liberated". As for all the others, either a US-friendly military dictatorship was put in place, or the end result was a complete disaster, anarchy and civil war - which often lasts to this day (see Afghanistan, Iraq, but also Somalia and Haiti...) You sure of what you said ? :-? |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/29/15 at 01:40:19 History is different depending on where the school is. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 10/29/15 at 02:08:29 Yes... I'm afraid you're right. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by HovisPresley on 10/29/15 at 06:57:38 Bravo Maurizio, excellent posts 8-) Even our tradition of 'fish-and-chips', here in 'Fishnchipya', on a Friday comes from Judeo-Christian roots. Shame that it costs nearly 30 pieces of silver, these days :o |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 10/29/15 at 10:33:26 You sure of what you said ? Huh Yes. I think most people know what I meant. At least those not predisposed to hating the USA. And please spare me the I lived in the USA and love it still BS.... All evidence to the contrary. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/15 at 06:44:31 312E282F32350434043C2E22695B0 wrote:
We will be greeted as great liberators,roses thrown at our feet. They knew better. As for the differences between There and what happened Back then, and the stories of liberation , I've heard a story of a young Beautiful French woman who allegedly, uhh, Greeted, a couple of platoons of allied soldiers... I wonder if she did that willingly. Lies everywhere, and I KNOW they are in our own Texas history books, because I remember the debates and the outcome. I know for FACT that the Alamo story is changed, don't know if it was true before, but changed, because of Mexican immigrant feelings. History NEVER changes unless new facts come to light. |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 11/02/15 at 08:15:04 675552434455427D51425B300 wrote:
I'll cut and paste your reply and add a little code to enhance the tone of your voice. " I think most people know what I meant." OK, so you think. That means you have an opinion, which is based - or biased - on your background knowledge AND your perceptions AND your general orientation on things. In other words, what you think may not be the truth at all, but merely a perception of the truth based on limited information, generic "everybody knows that..." and "this makes me feel good". It happens. You're entitled to it. It's called "dreaming", just like thinking that the 2016 Superbowl will be won by Barrow, Alaska. ===== As for what people know I am not going to delve into a spitting contest to show who's right and who's left (because nobody's ever wrong, are they?) AND I'm not going to search Youtube for teary-eyed newscaters trying their best not to laugh in the face of "Mr.&Mrs. Average" when the mistake Austria with Australia or Barack Obama with Osama Bin Laden... been there, seen that, happens here too... Just go and ask any High School history teacher or read Wikipedia (it's free, you know!) and see what happened in the Middle east in the last, uh, 6000 years or so. A for "And please spare me the I lived in the USA and love it still BS.... All evidence to the contrary. " I will quote Dante to you on this... "let us not speak of them, just look and move on" I invite you to go and entertain yourself : " And I, whose head was girt about with horror, said: “Teacher, what is this I hear? What folk is this, that seems so overwhelmed with woe?” And he to me: “This wretched kind of life the miserable spirits lead of those who lived with neither infamy nor praise. Commingled are they with that worthless choir of Angels who did not rebel, nor yet were true to God, but sided with themselves. The heavens, in order not to be less fair, expelled them; nor doth nether Hell receive them, because the bad would get some glory thence.” And I: “What is it, Teacher, grieves them so, it causes them so loudly to lament?” “I ’ll tell thee very briefly,” he replied. “These have no hope of death, and so low down is this unseeing life of theirs, that envious they are of every other destiny. [31] The world allows no fame of them to live; Mercy and Justice hold them in contempt. Let us not talk of them; but look, and pass!” And I, who gazed intently, saw a flag, which, whirling, moved so swiftly that to me contemptuous it appeared of all repose; and after it there came so long a line of people, that I never would have thought that death so great a number had undone." http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/2308 Kind regards, |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by WebsterMark on 11/02/15 at 14:59:18 I threw up in my mouth, just a little.... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 11/02/15 at 15:38:26 Web,... yer' funnier than I give you credit for... ;D... I think we need a little more humor here in the TT... Touchy topics should never be taken too seriously... 8-)... We should also make a rule that you have to let a fart for every paragraph you post... when you're out of hot air, yer' all done... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 11/02/15 at 16:31:05 5C4A5D40584D405B2F0 wrote:
Many, Many years ago, a very popular Metro area Lake, had some people complain that the, ‘Bikinis’, were getting to small. I, (and I am sure many thousand of others), offered to be, “Bikini POLICE” Never got a call ! ;D But, did not Bot, just volunteer, to be the, ‘Posting’ Police, under his new suggested Rule? Gonna have some Beans for supper tonight. :o |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by Serowbot on 11/02/15 at 16:47:09 Sorry,... we don't have an app for that... Counts must be on the honour system... Ironic, huh?... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by sendjulian on 11/03/15 at 17:02:56 bump for knowledge |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by mpescatori on 11/05/15 at 04:01:34 OK, let's shut down this thread. ;) |
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Title: Re: Down a Slippery Slope: what Muslims think of I Post by MnSpring on 11/05/15 at 17:24:01 2E3326302022372C312A430 wrote:
Na, just getting good ! Oh, how is, Italy doing with all the 'new' refugees, ? Got them all, bedded down, and fed, (With the food they, DEMANDED) Found, Jobs for all of them, so they can pay taxes, for your your health Care? Or are you just, paying a, 'little bit more', so they can sit on the front porch. while YOU work ? |
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