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Message started by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/30/15 at 00:03:55

Title: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answers
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/30/15 at 00:03:55

I have worked with LEDs for over 15 years, both in the professional/industrial arena and as a hobbyist. When "super bright" LEDs first hit the mainstream consumer market I had already been working with them for years. While I am not an expert on the doping/manufacturing procedures, I do have a great deal of practical application experience with them.

I am building a setup in my workshop that will allow me to rate/test/evaluate all types of automotive/motorcycle light bulbs. From power consumption (actual wattage required to operate the bulb) to luminous intensity and even wavelength (color spectrum), I hope to find bulbs and /or manufacturers that can meet the needs of those who wish to use them here on the forums. Whether you plan to completely replace your existing incandescent bulbs with LED types....or simply wish to add additional lighting, This thread ought to provide at least some useful information.

My first testing will be to determine which LEDS are suitable replacements for our 8 watt "running lights". In other words, what rating does an LED have to have in order to compete with the standard 8 watt filament of a typical 1157 bulb. We all know that a standard 8 watt bulb is "daylight visible". My very early initial testing shows that if you put a 1.2-2 watt LED bulb behind a lens of the same color....the luminous intensity is nearly the same...meaning they are daylight visible.

I will also be posting links (ebay mostly) for actual bulbs that I have purchased and tested. While this is by no means a guarantee that all of the bulbs by that seller will be identical...it will at least provide some insight as to which manufacturers/sellers are worth looking into and which are not.

I will also be discussing different ways to add LED lighting to your bike with the minimum amount of fuss and hopefully, cost.

As with all of my posts here, anyone interested is welcome to chime in with questions or their own personal experience, and such input will be appreciated.

My rig consists of a fully charged and regulated 12 volt maintenance free battery (the same one that is currently on my Savage), volt meter to measure voltage drop, current meter to measure amp usage, a watt meter to show actual watts used by the bulb, and a photographic light meter to measure output in lux (or lumens). by comparing the LEDs with standard bulbs, I should be able to come up with a basic chart that will show what type of LED bulb will be needed for a given application.

As with any topic here, the thread will be driven by the interest of the community. If there is little to no interest....it will just fade away :)

I will do my best to update this thread at least once a week.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by strang on 09/30/15 at 01:15:13

I'm very interested.
I was looking at converting handlebar end led indicators into daytime running lights.
Getting the indicators apart aside - how hard is it to swap out the yellow indicator led and swap in a white one? Probably a dumb question but haven't messed with led boards before. Done plenty of guitar wiring though (music shop yoof job) so soldering is decent. Is this doable?

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 09/30/15 at 03:16:01

This is a great tail/brake light bulb. I have it in my ST1100, and a friend used one in his BMW Paris Dakar bike that had a very small rubber mounted tail light and kept vibrating the filament bulbs out of existence. The flashing brake light function works really well on this bulb. This bulb works best in applications with a jagged pattern cast into the tail light lens....on tail lights that have a smooth lens with a scalloped reflector they don't work very well as they light pattern is too small.....and the bulb is a bit longer and moves the light out of the reflector focal point. I ordered a pair and put them in my Pontiac Vibe that has clear lens and fluted reflectors....and they only made a small round glow....when I moved them over to my wife's Honda Civic that had a pattern in the lens they work great.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/s-series-bulbs/1157-led-bulb-w-brake-flasher-dual-function-1-high-power-led-bay15d-retrofit-car/923/2274/

This may also be a good option for an LED headlight. It has the low beam LED's shielded to provide the vertical light cut off that so many of the cheap LED's don't have.....this should prevent the light from shining into the eyes of oncoming drivers. It also has flexible heat strips that cool the light without using a fan.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/h-series-bulbs/led-headlight-kit-h4-led-headlight-bulbs-conversion-kit-with-flexible-tinned-copper-braid/2221/4993/

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/15 at 08:10:29

It's a common need. And sounds like it's going to be done at a,pro level. It should probably be a sticky, but, the mods Will make that call.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by verslagen1 on 09/30/15 at 09:07:53

Well, hopefully this will be a discussion thread with a follow on tech thread for the results.

LEDs are a special animal. There are many different configurations. Many don't work well with certain types lighting (lens/reflectors) others work great. Corncob bulbs don't work with focused lighting such as headlights. Corncob bulbs work fine with diffused lighting such as signals.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/30/15 at 12:11:50

We shall see how well this project comes along. If the mods think the information posted here is worthy of being included in the Tech Section, great. If it just turns out to be a casual conversation with helpful info and discussion...that would be great as well.

Strang, I'm not sure I have a mental picture of what you are asking.

Handlebar end lights/turn signals come in a multitude of varieties. Most are useless for daytime visibility. If you could post the actual lights that you are referring to, I might be able to offer some suggestions.

Dave, nice find. At first blush it looks really expensive, but with the flash circuit built in it becomes much more reasonable.
That however, is a very specific lamp for a very specific purpose. At 3 watts it is certainly daylight visible. It does however require a load resistor to keep the system balanced.

There are 2 main reasons for putting LEDs on vehicles. One, is because they last an ungodly long time and are generally much less prone to damage from vibration. Two, is to add ADDITIONAL lighting at a much lower power consumption than you can get with a standard incandescent bulb.

For instance, I added a pair of red running lights to the back of my savage that are VERY bright (the red lens acts as a magnifier of sorts) at a power cost of just 3.4 watts total. That small amount of additional wattage drain is not likely to have any effect on the electrical system, and you end up with 2 really bright extra lights to help with visibility.

I view the "load resistor" as a waste of energy personally. Sure, you are getting a light that will likely last as long as the bike does....but you are forced to throw away the unused power in the form of heat. One of the things I will explore in this thread is the different methods that can be used to harness some of that lost power for even more additional lighting (or hand warmers or other accessories) rather than sending it all to a big ass power resistor.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by strang on 09/30/15 at 13:14:53

That headlight that Dave refers to is also sold by Philips:
Phillips Lumileds
http://www.horizonleds.co.uk/image/cache/data/Cree%20LED%20G3/h1-philips-g3-700x700.jpg

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by strang on 09/30/15 at 13:16:52

Was thinking of taking these apart:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331251091148
I wanted some lights on the handlebars to provide some width. I saw a bike on the road yesterday that had led strips built into some handguards and it had great visual presence. The narrow width of just one headlight isn't enough to be safe.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 09/30/15 at 13:30:31

272A2A222C2068322C312D68363130450 wrote:

Dave, nice find. At first blush it looks really expensive, but with the flash circuit built in it becomes much more reasonable.
That however, is a very specific lamp for a very specific purpose. At 3 watts it is certainly daylight visible. It does however require a load resistor to keep the system balanced.

That light I posted is only suitable for a tail/brake light, and it does not need a load resistor when used in that application. You just remove the stock 1157 bulb and replace it with that bulb....you don't need it. I have used it as a brake/tail light in 4 different vehicles without any issues.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/s-series-bulbs/1157-led-bulb-w-brake-flasher-dual-function-1-high-power-led-bay15d-retrofit-car/923/2274/

They do offer the same bulb without the flasher module, and if you used it for a turn signal you would either need a load resistor - or you would need to switch to an electronic flasher. Some of the corn cob type of lights might actually be better for use in a turn signal housing.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/s-series-bulbs/1157-led-bulb-w-reflector-lens-dual-function-1-high-power-led-bay15d-retrofit-car/922/

It also comes in an 1156 version.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/s-series-bulbs/1156-led-bulb-1-high-power-led-w-reflector-lens-ba15s-retrofit-car/921/

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by verslagen1 on 09/30/15 at 14:15:23

I needed H8/H11 for the beast and found a set of 20 watt lights that I really like. similar construction (single led per side, points back to the reflector) as the phillips, no braided heat pipe though.
http://who.img.gaatu.com/110071-2.jpg

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 09/30/15 at 17:58:09

Although headlight LED conversion info and experience are certainly relevant and welcome in this thread...I personally wont be dealing with them in my work.

My main goal is to make my bike more visible without damaging the electrical system and without spending a ton on "high end" accessory lighting. I've seen a set of aftermarket LED turn signals for Harleys going for as high as $80-100. That's just insane. I hope to provide more cost effective options, along with the technical data to back them up.

Strang, I havent seen those specific bar-end lights before so I cant comment, but VERY few bar-end lights are going to be "daylight visible". There just isnt enough room for the high wattage LEDs.
THESE I have seen...and ARE daylight visible, but are also incandescent and run 18 watts each....which is a lot of extra load. Could they then be converted to hi power LED? I'll bet so.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mat-Black-7-8-Handlebar-Bar-End-Indicators-Turn-Signals-Motorbike-Motorcycle-NEW-/400918189949

If you want to mount them to the bars themselves, an option like these would work...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-Black-Amber-Bullet-Turn-Signal-Light-For-Harley-Softail-Dyna-Sportster-V-Rod-/371369434324?hash=item567757dcd4&vxp=mtr

Any mini bullet that can take a standard auto bulb can be retrofitted for LED use. In most cases, the LED wattage draw is so low that you will not upset your electrical system. Again, any LED that puts out a genuine 1.2-2 watts will be much brighter than our standard 8 watt 1156 bulb in the same application.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by GridMonkey on 09/30/15 at 22:29:09

Hey Boogie,
I know we've chatted on other posts about the LEDs im going to put here but if this sends up sticky/ you decided these are good options, well then the info is here in this thread too.

Just because a couple of us have these as headlights.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LED-Headlight-6000K-18W-Hi-12W-Lo-Light-For-Harley-Kawasaki-Motorcycle-Motorbike/261536384680?_trksid=p2059210.c100148.m2813&_trkparms=ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140127102845%26meid%3D8f955b9400a84b6eba96647c53629345%26pid%3D100148%26

some pics from my use, i know you're looking more science like, which is good.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1434338766/6#6

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/01/15 at 00:59:45

Thanks grid...there really is no such thing as too much information when it comes to LEDs. The vast number of sellers, manufacturers, the fact that some tell you how many watts are PRODUCED and some tell you how many watts are NEEDED to operate (and never explain which is which), that MOST do not list how many lumens or what the LUX value is....it can all become rather muddy. The whole idea of this thread is to try and create a better understanding of how these devices work and how to spot the "cheap knockoffs".

One thing that many buyers do not know is that LEDs are not created equal....even if they come from the same manufacturer or even the same batch. They are made...then tested for brightness and clarity (and "color") and then the best 20% or so are sold to outfits like Phillips or GE...and the rest are sold to secondary markets.

That is not to say that you cant get a great set of 3 watt LED bulbs off ebay....you certainly can, but when you see a bulb for $6.99 a pair...and then a few pages later you see the same exact bulb for $12 for 10 pcs, well....you can usually guess that the cheaper bulbs will vary in color, clarity and brightness.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/01/15 at 04:45:06

Distance from centerline. I see a light, flashing. But, if it's only an inch from center, how do I know what's up? If it's night and the headlamps on, the eyeballs don't see the little light in its corona.
Just a thot,

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/01/15 at 04:57:45

4B46464E404C045E405D41045A5D5C290 wrote:

I view the "load resistor" as a waste of energy personally. Sure, you are getting a light that will likely last as long as the bike does....but you are forced to throw away the unused power in the form of heat. One of the things I will explore in this thread is the different methods that can be used to harness some of that lost power for even more additional lighting (or hand warmers or other accessories) rather than sending it all to a big ass power resistor.

I am not sure I understand the "Load Resistor". I do know that LED's operate somewhere between 2-4 volts depending on color, and that some form of resister will be needed - and the resistor is already built into the bulb when they are made to fit into standard lighting sockets.

I do understand that when LED bulbs are used for turn signals, it is necessary to replace the Flasher unit with an electronic one to get the turn signals to operate correctly.

However.....the charging system in our motorcycle puts out about 100 watts all the time, and whatever power is not needed is wasted by the voltage regulator/rectifier....and it is wasted as "heat" by the regulator/rectifier. If we replaced all the bulbs with LED's and got the power usage way down on the electrical system - could the regulator/rectifier bleed off all the extra energy without cooking itself?

Do we need to keep the total power consumption nearly equal to what is stock?

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/01/15 at 15:23:07

Dave, so far as I know, our electrical system is balanced (as best as it can be) and if you swapped out all of the lighting with LEDs, the rectifier would likely cook pretty quickly.

So, the front turn signal has a dual filament 1157 incandescent bulb that draws (or uses) 8 watts of energy for the running light and 27 watts for the turn signal. This is not "output" watts , as in a measure of brightness...it's a power consumption rating.

A 1.5 watt LED will emit about as much light as an 8 watt glass bulb. Since it only uses 1.5 watts, the rectifier has to burn off the remainder in order to "balance" the system as designed. The load resistor takes the rectifiers place by taking the 6.5 watts that is not being used anymore (due to the new LED) and burning it off as heat. Basically, these power resistors that come with LED light kits are just tiny heaters. This fakes the system into thinking the glass 8 watt bulb is still in place. The benefit of course, is that the LED is much more resistant to vibration and it's lifespan may well exceed the bike itself. The downside is that you have to find a spot to put these load resistors, and that there is no "saved" energy.

MY goal is to put that 1.5 watt LED in place, and then use the 6.5 watts for MORE lighting rather than wasting it as heat through the resistors. That electrical line still see's 8 watts being used and so it is happy, but you get to add additional running lights or driving lights at no cost to the system. If that makes any sense...

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/01/15 at 18:14:40

Well....maybe I should be more worried about my rectifier.

I have no running lights, an LED tail light, 2 small LED license plate lights, and my Silverstar 55/60 Watt headlight bulb. I have an Earth-X lithium Ion battery.

I really don't have much of anyplace to add any lighting on the Cafe bike. Maybe I need electric socks?

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Steve H on 10/01/15 at 19:43:09

Or heated grips for those really cold days.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/02/15 at 12:15:01

I'm not an expert on the electrical system of this bike....I just have quite a bit of electronics/electrical experience and can only draw conclusions from the info available.

It seems to reason that if the bike produces 100-125 watts while running at 45 mph in 4th gear, and all original equipment is installed....that whatever is not being used by the bike to keep it running and keep the assorted lights on is being used to keep the battery charged. Anything not used by the battery is burned off as heat from the regulator/rectifier.

Simple math says that an all-original equipment Savage uses roughly 80-90 watts just driving down the road at 45 mph. any additional power generated by the bike that is not used is sent to the rectifier/regulator where it is burned off as heat.
Worst case scenario happens when the high beam is on, turn signal is on, and brake light comes on. In that situation very little power is left to go toward charging the battery, but seeing as this condition only happens for short periods of time....it isnt an issue.

So if your bike is stripped of most of the stock lighting, then you are sending more power to the battery charging circuit....and what cant be used there, is being burned off by the R/R. Could this condition "overcharge" the battery? I really dont know enough about the charging circuit to answer that. Will the unused power cause a pre-mature failure of the R/R due to it overheating? Again, I cant swear that it will....but science and logic says that if the R/R is designed to handle between 25-35 watts of excess power, and you are forcing it to deal with over 50 watts.....that could be an issue.

Do the guys at Ryca have any input on the Regulator circuit for naked bikes and conversions that remove most of the stock lighting?

I know from experience that LiIon batteries (or any battery really) does not like to be over-charged. Have you ever put a meter across the battery while the bike was running to see how much voltage is there?

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by chzeckmate on 10/03/15 at 00:30:33

Remember that the problem for the r/r isn't the excess wattage, it's the heat. Even a little bit of excess wattage can cause the r/r to heat up. If you can dissipate that heat properly then it doesn't really matter how much lighting or other electrical components you remove. You just need to be sure your dissipating the heat effectively to deal with that. Most of those conversion savages have the r/r relocated to a place that allows for very good dissipation so I really don't think it's a problem for those.

The r/r isn't prone to fail, but it does happen. The r/r is designed to deal with high temperature condition but the internal components can't withstand it for extended periods. The length of time the r/r is subjected to a high temp condition is the deciding factor. If you have the right combination of factors you're set for failure. Too high idle speed, too long idling, enough electrical components removed, any restriction of airflow/ventilation, etc...All of that over months and years and you may end up with failure. The r/r is very durable as long as you have proper cooling. The hotter you run it the more airflow you need. My take anyway.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by strang on 10/03/15 at 02:30:07

The information that Stu has worked out about the amount of watts is really useful - I have wondered how much over-capicty a stock savage has for quite a while.
I also think rectifiers may possibly be able to handle a fair amount of excess power. If I think of other bikes I have owned - they usually didn't have an "always on" headlight. Thus there was quite a differentiation in running watts - during daytime running (no headlight, rear on brake only) vs nighttime running (headlight and tail light on). I hear of people cooking rectifiers but have never met anyone. I think rectifier failure may be mostly down to shorting. However others know much more than me, so am all ears on this thread, as am literally in the middle of rewiring my savage and will take your knowledge on board.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/06/15 at 04:18:50

I was fussing around with the seat and working on mounting saddlebags, and it occurred to me that the finned portion of the rectifier most likely doesn't get a lot of air flow under the seat. I believe that most of the cooling for the rectifier comes from being bolted to that massive rear fender - which acts like a heat sink to absorb heat from the rectifier.

I would think the folks who are most apt to have trouble with overheating would be the modified bikes that tuck the rectifier out of sight and don't bolt it to something that can pull the heat away.

I have the rectifier bolted to a piece of sheet metal that I made into a battery box.....I need to reach down and feel how warm/hot that gets when I am riding - I have never done that....and I should try that on both the stock and Cafe' bikes and see if I can notice a difference.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by chzeckmate on 10/06/15 at 04:37:41

I've seen the square mounting point on the fender referred to as the regulator rectifier heat sink. I don't remember if it was in the owner's manual, the Clymer manual, a parts guide, or somewhere else, but you're right about it. I think that's the reason mine was cooked. The PO had added saddlebags to the bike and just remounted the r/r to the saddlebag yoke. There was a lot of heat build up there. So much so that I couldn't touch it bare handed after running awhile. It had even melted the laces on the yoke. When I replaced it I modified the yoke and made a space for it to be mounted to the fender again. So far so good. It'll get really warm but not hot enough to be uncomfortable to the touch.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by HondaLavis on 10/06/15 at 08:49:24

I'm not sure about the heat sink theory. The fender is steel, which is not a great heat conductor. When I installed my sportster seat, I moved my R/R to lower on the fender and secured it with a zip tie. All electronics were kept stock for a while until I swap for a much smaller AGM battery (much lower CCA, needs much more charging). I checked it for heat, but only ever gets a bit warm.

My guess is it's cooled more by airflow than anything else. Just my $0.02.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/Lavis325CL/20130306_175915_zps0db39cda.jpg

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by chzeckmate on 10/06/15 at 13:42:50

1136373D3815382F302A590 wrote:

I'm not sure about the heat sink theory. The fender is steel, which is not a great heat conductor.

At the risk of seeming argumentative, I'd have to disagree with you on this. To say that steel isn't a good conductor of heat is just incorrect. I mean, you could make the argument that when comparing steel to silver or copper that steel isn't as good, but you could also make the argument that steel is a great heat conductor when compared to tin or iron or most other materials. You could also make an argument that some types of steel are better than others. For example the steel in our fender is a much better heat conductor than stainless steel.

The bottom line is, the steel in our fender is a good heat conductor, and the design of the fender makes even better. I mean, we wouldn't expect great heat dissipation for the r/r sitting it on top of a stationary 20lb block of steel, but the Savage fender is relatively thin sheet that has consistent high velocity airflow.

That's my 2¢ but don't take my word for it there's plenty of science out there on this.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by verslagen1 on 10/06/15 at 14:28:22

526D6B6C71765E180 wrote:

[quote author=1136373D3815382F302A590 link=1443596635/15#23 date=1444146564]I'm not sure about the heat sink theory. The fender is steel, which is not a great heat conductor.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by chzeckmate on 10/06/15 at 16:32:53

647760617E7375777C23120 wrote:

Ever put your hand on top of a car sitting out in the sun?
Betcha it felt hot.

Do the same for the window.
Now there's a poor conductor.

Succinctly stated ;)

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by HondaLavis on 10/07/15 at 12:16:08

I don't want to completely derail this thread, but I'll make this counterpoint: There is far more convection capacity going over the R/R than there is conduction through the fender. Yes, the thermal conductivity of steel can very greatly due to composition and type, but sitting in the sun is an entirely different ball game. That is absorbing light energy which is not reflecting it, and storing it as heat.

I mean, they make heat shields out of steel, right? I figure there's got to be a reason the R/R has all those fins.

So if we replace all of the lights with LED's, we can just install driving lights, hand warmers, a cell phone charger, accent lights... I dont see any down side! ;D If you tear the bike down to a bare minimum electrical, how hot DOES the R/R get? What does it take to fry it? Can we add some kind of secondary cooling like submerging it in liquid or running a fan over it? Maybe the power required to run the fan will be enough to get it in a safe range. lol

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/07/15 at 12:24:53

I do believe the fins were cast into the rectifier for cooling - but then Suzuki hid it underneath a seat that most likely restricts the air flow considerably.

I also believe the fender is intended to be a heat sink, as Suzuki made a nice flat spot on the fender so it could be in full contact with the fender. Even painted steel does a good job of moving heat around, and the Savage rear fender certainly has some thermal "mass" to it.

How hot does it get....dunno - I never really thought about it before.

If the folks who are hiding their rectifier in the plastic air cleaner box aren't overheating them.....I guess the rest of us don't have much to worry about.

Most likely when Boogie with Stu actually starts testing and reporting...he should open up a new thread and not get all this rectifier discussion in his test.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by JutMan on 10/07/15 at 20:33:02

If you think about it, when that tire is whipping around when you are moving at cruising speed, that will cause a hell of a windstorm under that fender. If it is hot, the metal will be cool.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/11/15 at 04:10:47

Sorry for my absence guys...had a bit of a health issue that kept me under the weather for a bit.

I've got my rig set up and have done some testing...I'll take Dave's cue and list it as a separate thread to avoid confusion.

For the record, on a standard 1999-2004 Savage with no mods at all, the surface temp on the rectifier can hit 200 deg F easily. Definitely too hot to handle with bare hands. When mounted to the fender and the bike is moving, this temp drops to about 110 degrees. I've checked it with a thermo-couple. Left UNmounted, I'd hazard a guess that it could hit 300 F in stop and go traffic, unless it is in an air-flow path. It is after all, a heater. That is it's job. It takes (unused) voltage and current and converts it into heat.

When I moved my R/R to the battery box I put a solid square of 1/4" aluminum underneath it to help with the heat (since the battery cage steel is so thin. My R/R runs about 110-125 deg F in the new location (with vents).

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/11/15 at 04:28:16

Thanks for doing the R/R/ temp testing. I have a little temperature gauge that was made to keep track of computer core testing....and I am going to temporarily mount it on my Cafe' bike and see how hot it gets when I am riding. I have it mounted to the battery box/rear fender combination that I made - but it is not as beefy as the stock rear fender.

When you get into your testing.....I really need some recommendations on what LED's I could use to improve on the tail light on my Cafe bike. It has a bunch of tiny LED's that really aren't bright enough to be functional in the daylight (pretty typical of the cheap LED lights), and I would really like to improve on the light output. To keep me safe I added an LED emergency light under the fender to function as the brake light.

http://i60.tinypic.com/mubs03.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/ixqdjm.jpg

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/11/15 at 07:38:11

A single tail light Dave? With what kind of socket? 1156 or 1157? Does it have to act as a running light and braking light?

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/11/15 at 10:06:28

No socket....it is the light I showed it the photographs. It is hardwired and does both the running and brake light - but is very dim on both. It is the kind of light that if you are staring at it from 20 feet in the sunlight..you are not sure if the thing is ON or not.

I would like to remove those tiny LED's and use some larger 1 or 1.5 watt LED's in their place. I can solder, make a mounting board, etc., and I am looking for recommendations on what kind of LED to buy.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by chzeckmate on 10/11/15 at 20:32:05

You're going to want SMDs for the best viewing angles. I have two sets of three red ones for running lights and they are bright as f#@k. They're cheap and efficient. My setup cost me less than $6.00. Got them from EPO in Houston....I love that place!

Here's what they look like on my bike at night. In this video they seem about as bright as the taillight but in the day you can tell they are brighter than the tail light.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VR87qsmD24

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/12/15 at 10:14:57

1F2026213C3B13550 wrote:
You're going to want SMDs for the best viewing angles. I have two sets of three red ones for running lights and they are bright as f#@k. They're cheap and efficient. My setup cost me less than $6.00. Got them from EPO in Houston....I love that place!

Here's what they look like on my bike at night. In this video they seem about as bright as the taillight but in the day you can tell they are brighter than the tail light.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VR87qsmD24

chzeck, they do make T1's with a 90 degree viewing angle and up to 8,000 mc or so (in red). Replacing the current leds with high power substitutes is gonna be the easiest solution. reason being that the little pads are not set up for the spacing of SMD type LEDS.
If you want to just pull the original LEDs and put slightly larger and brighter ones in (that use the same voltage so the device works the same), I'd recommend these.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/through-hole/5mm-red-led-30-degree-viewing-angle-8000-mcd/281/1208/

If you want the exact same size, just brighter...use these.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/through-hole/red-3mm-led-45-degree-viewing-angle-4500-mcd/311/1243/

Since the pc board that the LEDs are mounted to has a circuit on it to limit voltage for the running light and allows full voltage for the brake function, you dont want to play around too much with higher wattage. You cant know how much the circuit will take, or if it will work properly if you substitute drastically different LEDs.

Personally, I would scrap the led pc board entirely. I'd put three 2 watt LEDs on a piece of prototype breadboarding from Radio Shack and wire the middle one to the running light wire and the 2 outside ones to the brake light wire.
Or just use a plain piece of plastic (pvc, acrylic, whatever) about 1/8" thick and the same shape as the original board and epoxy the three new high power LEDs in place. It's not like they will ever burn out. Then just solder directly to the LEDs.

Three of these would out perform the original board by a huge margin. They can be glued to a plastic base and use 26 ga wire to connect them to your running light/brake light wires.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/high-powered/cree-xrc-series-1-watt-red-led-r2m3c/941/1263/

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Boogie_with_Stu on 10/12/15 at 10:22:23

I have a bunch of one sided copper clad blank PCB material. If you want to mess with this yourself, no worries...but if you'd like me to make you a 4 watt/ 2 watt daylight visible LED board to replace the one that came with the assembly, just let me know. I've been doing this stuff for centuries.

Also, you could use pre-made modules rather than bare LEDs. Depends on how much room you have inside the housing. These are set up to run straight off of any 12 volt source.

example:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-module-strings/lsmcc-series-constant-current-smd-led-sign-module/980/

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-wired-bolts/plm-series-wired-one-and-half-watt-led/1141/

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/13/15 at 04:38:27

What do you believe is the power (lm) of the bulbs that come in the cheap lights like this?
http://i60.tinypic.com/mubs03.jpg

The tail light I have is small, so the pre-wired 12V LED's most likely are too big. My turn signals have a pair of 1.5 watt - 70lm LED's in each one and they are plenty bright....so for the tail light I most likely can get by with a brightness of about 50 lm, I would like about 100 lm for the brake light.

This looks like a good possibility for the tail light. They are 10lm each, and it would take 5 of them wired in series to work with the 12v, and the size is small at 7.5mm square, and they look easy to solder. If I have room I could get 10 of them mounted in two series circuits.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/through-hole/5mm-red-high-flux-led-90-degree-viewing-angle-5500-mcd/356/1303/

For the brake light.....

These might work at 21 lm and it would take 4 in series to work at 12V. They are tiny at 5mm square and one reviewer said they are hard to solder leads to.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/surface-mount-smd/pure-white-5050-smd-led-120-degree-viewing-angle-6000-mcd/316/1248/#/tab/Overview

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by strang on 10/16/15 at 11:42:16

Stu, I'm wondering if you could give us a general rundown on what you look for when purchasing leds? I find a lot of the specs quite confusing and there seems to be quite a few options. What are the crucial specs/data to look for when choosing? Are the surface mount ones generally better? (called SMT or SMD?)

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by Dave on 10/16/15 at 12:17:10

Yea.....I don't know nothing about LED's. I listed 2 different ones as I thought I would need a different brightness for the running light and the brake light. Now after watching a YouTube video I believe I can use the same LED and run both the running and brake lights through the same LED, and get different light output (brighness) by placing a resistor in the power coming from the running light, and run the brakes lights straight (or through a resister with less resistance).

I also believe I have to run enough LEDs in series to reduce the voltage on each LED down to it's operating voltage (or use a resistor to step the voltage down).

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by mjs3790225 on 10/25/15 at 06:58:23

Using a linear regulator or switching regulator would be infinitely better than a resistor. You'll get consistent output over the bike's operating voltage range plus some degree of spike protection. Only marginally more complicated too.

Title: Re: LED lighting questions , and hopefully, answer
Post by mjs3790225 on 10/25/15 at 07:18:27

5F64697E6F63787E656D607F0C0 wrote:

I also believe I have to run enough LEDs in series to reduce the voltage on each LED down to it's operating voltage (or use a resistor to step the voltage down).

Running LEDs in series distributes the voltage load over more components evenly. This reduces waste power to heat.

For instance, if the bike is generating 12VDC (it won't be, it will be higher than that in real life that's why you need regulation instead of resistors) you have 12VDC to spread out in the circuit. If you used one LED and one resistor, those two components would be forced to use all that voltage (Kirchhoff's circuit laws).

White LEDs only need somewhere between 2.8 and 3.4 volts (varies with manufacture) to operate at FULL POWER. So because our power source is much higher than 3 volts (we got 12 and higher) we can run more LEDS in series to match that closer and use the available voltage more efficiently. But you need to leave a little overhead for the device you are using to regulate the current.

Assuming a 3V LED, what is often common in 12V applications is to run 3 of them in series for a total forward voltage (Vf) of 9 volts. This leaves 3 volts left over for use with your current regulation device.

Resistors don't regulate voltage, they regulate current. The amount of current they pass is proportional to the amount of voltage running through them. Because available voltage can swing in automotive applications, its best to use a current regulator of sorts. The easiest get-up-and-go would be a linear regulator.

You will not be happy if you don't use a current regulator. Especially if you are trying to make your lights change intensity by opening up another circuit through them.

Also, LEDs will change their forward voltage based on the temperature they are currently at. As they get hotter (like when they are turned on), their forward voltage drops. This drop in forward voltage will cause them to want to pull more current (diode magic). Now you have an already hot LED trying to get itself hotter even faster. You are now experiencing thermal runaway and will drastically hurt your LEDs lifespan. Again, you need to use a form of current regulator.